Originally posted by DMKano Are people forgetting how broken Tabula Rasa was? CoH was solid, SWG - which iteration?
Tabula Rasa wasn't so broke when it went free. They changed a lot of it.
lol ....There is only 1 SWG iteration and that was before they added levels.
TR was broken. Not sure if what you are saying about it later getting fixed is true, but by then it doesn't matter. You have one chance to make an impression.
That's true, unless you're FF14. Or SW:TOR. Or Rift. TERA? Aion?
I still miss the unique experience only that game could provide.
R.I.P. old friend.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
I never played Tabula Rasa, but from what I understand it was a nice game with great potential, but the drama between the big boys killed it..
Now as for SWG.. That game was a double edge sword.. I absolutely LOVED half of it, and HATED the other half.. It is beyond me why it had such a SHITTY user interface.. Macro's should of never been allowed.. Too many damn quest bugs.. and most importantly ...
JEDI should of been in the game from the get go, like SWTOR..
I personally like SWTOR characters/classes more so then SWG, even tho I like SWG crafting better.. But SWTOR doesn't have a world so to speak.. It's just a bunch of zones you go to from your ship.. lol However, for both games.. WTF is the galactic war or whatever? Neither game gave me the feeling I was in or stuck between a struggling empire..
I agree with this post except for one point..........
JEDI should never have been in the game
You sir win +1 internets.
SWG was ruined by Skywalker wanna be's complaining about Jedi's and/or not wanting to do any of the work to become one (which wasn't hard). I wish they had left the Jedi out completely as well.
The only iteration of SWG was pre-CU and pre-stupid jedi village. If only SOE had just added more content instead of breaking mechanics that were fine....
The Jedi could have worked if it was totally random. Maybe make your chances increase a little by doing certain things, but it would never be certain thing. Or better yet they could have set the game era after " Return of the Jedi", and just made Jedi/Sith a normal skill path.
To all the people with the opinion "If they were good they would still be live." That may work for the other two, but SWG was killed by Lucas Arts as to not compete with SW:TOR. It still had a healthy ~100k community before they murdered it to try to force people who liked SWG into their new game.
Even currently, the SWG Emulation servers have small but good populations. The graphics have aged well, and more and more stuff is added every few months. I'm loving my time there, just like I did before greed killed SWG.
I never played Tabula Rasa, but from what I understand it was a nice game with great potential, but the drama between the big boys killed it..
Now as for SWG.. That game was a double edge sword.. I absolutely LOVED half of it, and HATED the other half.. It is beyond me why it had such a SHITTY user interface.. Macro's should of never been allowed.. Too many damn quest bugs.. and most importantly ...
JEDI should of been in the game from the get go, like SWTOR..
I personally like SWTOR characters/classes more so then SWG, even tho I like SWG crafting better.. But SWTOR doesn't have a world so to speak.. It's just a bunch of zones you go to from your ship.. lol However, for both games.. WTF is the galactic war or whatever? Neither game gave me the feeling I was in or stuck between a struggling empire..
I agree with this post except for one point..........
JEDI should never have been in the game
You sir win +1 internets.
SWG was ruined by Skywalker wanna be's complaining about Jedi's and/or not wanting to do any of the work to become one (which wasn't hard). I wish they had left the Jedi out completely as well.
The only iteration of SWG was pre-CU and pre-stupid jedi village. If only SOE had just added more content instead of breaking mechanics that were fine....
The Jedi could have worked if it was totally random. Maybe make your chances increase a little by doing certain things, but it would never be certain thing. Or better yet they could have set the game era after " Return of the Jedi", and just made Jedi/Sith a normal skill path.
To be honest, the village, and the pre pub 9 grind system for jedi was fine. There were STILL a bunch of non Jedi PvPers running around STILL bounty hunters hunting them. It was great. I would rather PvP on my Rifleman Combat Medic than my jedi anyways.
There were a few things in the NGE that really were awesome I wish they would have had pre-cu. Namely player bounty hunting, that shit was amazing and I used SO much time doing it.
it just means that the loud, minority who keeps repeating CATCH word like- sandbox,p2p.open world,etc are old relics who never adapted to real world mmo situation.
NOT TRUE japormsx,
SWG was killed to help SWTOR.
COH was killed because the cash store never took off. COH had plenty of subs but Ncsoft wanted the cash store revenues. COH subs were so loyal there was just no chance for them to make money there.
Let me explain. Tabula Rasa was buggy as hell, poorly optimized (and on low looked like N64), and had tons of missing content endgame.
However, the game was a gritty, Sci-Fi, third person shooter MMO, which you entered a world and didn't instance very few steps or miss out on your buddies adventures because they were in a different instance.
You could kill a boss with one we'll placed sniper shot (plus combos), there was several unlocked able races, and the immergent content kept you on your toes when a mothership would attack the wilds, and drop down 10-100 enemies in waves.
My favorite memory of that game was being on a desolate planet outpost, with two other random guys who happened to be out there in the middle of nowhere when a massive invasion event triggered. It was literally us three and the few NPCs against waves and waves on alien enemies.
At one point I was sniping from the top of a tower, calling in Aristides against the massive waves, when a rocket hit me and knocked me down into the onslaught. One of the other guys up on the adjacent tower decided screw it and jumped down with me. We fought off the enemy until they finally broke down the force field gate and took the outpost. We needed up fleeing and heading back to the home base, and even found the third guy there! We all talked about how crazy the battle was and how we would get a beer in the tavern afterwards.
Yes I know it's just me looking back on a nostalgic event but isn't that why we play these games? To escape to a different world for a while?
Had similar experiences. Had a lot of fun in that game with friends. Now I'm sad. Time to go get a donut.
I would imagine there would be complaining about the direction of the game, how much fun it used to be, and why the game(choose any of them) lost in the mmorpg popularity poll.
Let me explain. Tabula Rasa was buggy as hell, poorly optimized (and on low looked like N64), and had tons of missing content endgame.
However, the game was a gritty, Sci-Fi, third person shooter MMO, which you entered a world and didn't instance very few steps or miss out on your buddies adventures because they were in a different instance.
You could kill a boss with one we'll placed sniper shot (plus combos), there was several unlocked able races, and the immergent content kept you on your toes when a mothership would attack the wilds, and drop down 10-100 enemies in waves.
My favorite memory of that game was being on a desolate planet outpost, with two other random guys who happened to be out there in the middle of nowhere when a massive invasion event triggered. It was literally us three and the few NPCs against waves and waves on alien enemies.
At one point I was sniping from the top of a tower, calling in Aristides against the massive waves, when a rocket hit me and knocked me down into the onslaught. One of the other guys up on the adjacent tower decided screw it and jumped down with me. We fought off the enemy until they finally broke down the force field gate and took the outpost. We needed up fleeing and heading back to the home base, and even found the third guy there! We all talked about how crazy the battle was and how we would get a beer in the tavern afterwards.
Yes I know it's just me looking back on a nostalgic event but isn't that why we play these games? To escape to a different world for a while?
This type of memory and nostalgia has happened to me in many MMOs I have played. This has little to do with the actual design of the game and more to do with players being social and interactive with the world around them. I have many memories of similar events like this one from FFXI, but I do not wish to go back to that game any longer.
I will give you this.... most MMOs out there now do not help promote this kind of behavior and team work.
it just means that the loud, minority who keeps repeating CATCH word like- sandbox,p2p.open world,etc are old relics who never adapted to real world mmo situation.
NOT TRUE japormsx,
SWG was killed to help SWTOR.
COH was killed because the cash store never took off. COH had plenty of subs but Ncsoft wanted the cash store revenues. COH subs were so loyal there was just no chance for them to make money there.
Perhaps, but I see COH closing as a matter of ROI perception. If they could use the server space for something with a higher ROI, it makes sense to get rid of the lower ROI.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Perhaps, but I see COH closing as a matter of ROI perception. If they could use the server space for something with a higher ROI, it makes sense to get rid of the lower ROI.
Yeah .. COH is just not making enough money anymore (meaning there is just not enough demand, despite a small number of players really like the game).
Perhaps, but I see COH closing as a matter of ROI perception. If they could use the server space for something with a higher ROI, it makes sense to get rid of the lower ROI.
Yeah .. COH is just not making enough money anymore (meaning there is just not enough demand, despite a small number of players really like the game).
Not disagreeing at all with your statement or anyone else who said CoH had low subs and was a total niche game.
In fact even after its big peak (a few months past release) I remember them opening the Arena system (that no one played) and my first thought was, "Why make instanced arena fights? Its just going to take more people out of the game world."
I dont think anyone is here to blame anyone for these games not doing well, or even begin to say that things could have been different if the developers just did "X".
But what you can do is look at how much times have changed, and how much better of an exposure these games would have now.
At the time of SWG, COH, there was no Twitch, barely any youtube, you had to go onto third party sites to even find a glimpse of these games because MMO's were also new and barely covered on major sites/TV (Even G4 disliked the MMO).
I think what people are forgetting is that at the time these games came out, MMO'S WERE THE NICHE GENRE!!!
Perhaps, but I see COH closing as a matter of ROI perception. If they could use the server space for something with a higher ROI, it makes sense to get rid of the lower ROI.
Yeah .. COH is just not making enough money anymore (meaning there is just not enough demand, despite a small number of players really like the game).
Not disagreeing at all with your statement or anyone else who said CoH had low subs and was a total niche game.
In fact even after its big peak (a few months past release) I remember them opening the Arena system (that no one played) and my first thought was, "Why make instanced arena fights? Its just going to take more people out of the game world."
I dont think anyone is here to blame anyone for these games not doing well, or even begin to say that things could have been different if the developers just did "X".
But what you can do is look at how much times have changed, and how much better of an exposure these games would have now.
At the time of SWG, COH, there was no Twitch, barely any youtube, you had to go onto third party sites to even find a glimpse of these games because MMO's were also new and barely covered on major sites/TV (Even G4 disliked the MMO).
I think what people are forgetting is that at the time these games came out, MMO'S WERE THE NICHE GENRE!!!
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I never played Tabula Rasa, but from what I understand it was a nice game with great potential, but the drama between the big boys killed it..
Now as for SWG.. That game was a double edge sword.. I absolutely LOVED half of it, and HATED the other half.. It is beyond me why it had such a SHITTY user interface.. Macro's should of never been allowed.. Too many damn quest bugs.. and most importantly ...
JEDI should of been in the game from the get go, like SWTOR..
I personally like SWTOR characters/classes more so then SWG, even tho I like SWG crafting better.. But SWTOR doesn't have a world so to speak.. It's just a bunch of zones you go to from your ship.. lol However, for both games.. WTF is the galactic war or whatever? Neither game gave me the feeling I was in or stuck between a struggling empire..
I agree with this post except for one point..........
JEDI should never have been in the game
This right here. Jedi and the hologrind destroyed the game as far as I am concerned.
Perhaps, but I see COH closing as a matter of ROI perception. If they could use the server space for something with a higher ROI, it makes sense to get rid of the lower ROI.
Yeah .. COH is just not making enough money anymore (meaning there is just not enough demand, despite a small number of players really like the game).
Not disagreeing at all with your statement or anyone else who said CoH had low subs and was a total niche game.
In fact even after its big peak (a few months past release) I remember them opening the Arena system (that no one played) and my first thought was, "Why make instanced arena fights? Its just going to take more people out of the game world."
I dont think anyone is here to blame anyone for these games not doing well, or even begin to say that things could have been different if the developers just did "X".
But what you can do is look at how much times have changed, and how much better of an exposure these games would have now.
At the time of SWG, COH, there was no Twitch, barely any youtube, you had to go onto third party sites to even find a glimpse of these games because MMO's were also new and barely covered on major sites/TV (Even G4 disliked the MMO).
I think what people are forgetting is that at the time these games came out, MMO'S WERE THE NICHE GENRE!!!
City of Heroes did do well.
I mean yeah there is that scene in "Im Still Here" where Joaquin Phoenix is smoking a fat blunt and playing City of Heroes, so yeah, they made it I guess.
Perhaps, but I see COH closing as a matter of ROI perception. If they could use the server space for something with a higher ROI, it makes sense to get rid of the lower ROI.
Yeah .. COH is just not making enough money anymore (meaning there is just not enough demand, despite a small number of players really like the game).
Not disagreeing at all with your statement or anyone else who said CoH had low subs and was a total niche game.
In fact even after its big peak (a few months past release) I remember them opening the Arena system (that no one played) and my first thought was, "Why make instanced arena fights? Its just going to take more people out of the game world."
I dont think anyone is here to blame anyone for these games not doing well, or even begin to say that things could have been different if the developers just did "X".
But what you can do is look at how much times have changed, and how much better of an exposure these games would have now.
At the time of SWG, COH, there was no Twitch, barely any youtube, you had to go onto third party sites to even find a glimpse of these games because MMO's were also new and barely covered on major sites/TV (Even G4 disliked the MMO).
I think what people are forgetting is that at the time these games came out, MMO'S WERE THE NICHE GENRE!!!
City of Heroes did do well.
I mean yeah there is that scene in "Im Still Here" where Joaquin Phoenix is smoking a fat blunt and playing City of Heroes, so yeah, they made it I guess.
Wtf? It had a good run and therefore did well. Are you one of those who only see the top earner as doing well and everyone else sucks? You have to remember, COH was out before wow. Wow changed perceptions. COH did well. Perhaps you weren't around back then.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
From the beginning it's never been about "players have changed." Nothing's really changed except developer's expectations.
The initial MMORPGs were always intended for a small player base. 100K, 200K, 500K? These were big numbers 15 years ago. That's the only thing that changed. Developers want 10 times the player bases now.
If someone were to developer a game styled after the original MMORPGs, Assuming it was designed, coded and monetized properly, I would expect the same number of players. And most likely, they would remain loyal to the game for several years if not longer.
The time of niche games may rise again. But now is the time of the meta game, WoW and what not.
SWG in no way was a Niche game..
WOW numbers is just a blip and we may never see a western mmo with those numbers again.. before that SWG was prob one of the most popular and populated mmos to ever exist.
They were niche games. All MMORPGs were at that time. WoW changed it and produced the "Meta MMO". One for EVERYBODY.
Just out of curiosity as I didn't play either of the SWGs, but if it was so popular and populated why did the revamp it?
I think what people are forgetting is that at the time these games came out, MMO'S WERE THE NICHE GENRE!!!
No. People are not forgetting that. It is just that people do not think that is relevant anymore after so many years.
If a dev need to spend tens of millions on a product, they probably don't want it to be niche.
IIRC CoH was developed on $5 mil. They had private investment from a relative of the original development crew. Of course, more was invested and implemented as time went on. But it was pretty fully amortized. With a small crew it could have been a chugging money printing machine. Just not a huge one.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
It takes someone at HQ who is unwilling to fight (or fighting to kill it) to guarantee a project hitting the shitter. I'm sure in some of the cases mentioned there were people at the company who just didn't care and let the games die. In the case of SWG it was EA and Lucasarts conspiring. The Bioware/LA cabal was like Game of Thrones where the villains are the heroes in a nihilistic world of rewarded treachery.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Comments
That's true, unless you're FF14. Or SW:TOR. Or Rift. TERA? Aion?
Good old CoH...
I still miss the unique experience only that game could provide.
R.I.P. old friend.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I know that feeling. Yes, memories of Fire Energy and Drek
The Jedi could have worked if it was totally random. Maybe make your chances increase a little by doing certain things, but it would never be certain thing. Or better yet they could have set the game era after " Return of the Jedi", and just made Jedi/Sith a normal skill path.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
But then there wouldn't be a new thread every week about how great they WERE.
To all the people with the opinion "If they were good they would still be live." That may work for the other two, but SWG was killed by Lucas Arts as to not compete with SW:TOR. It still had a healthy ~100k community before they murdered it to try to force people who liked SWG into their new game.
Even currently, the SWG Emulation servers have small but good populations. The graphics have aged well, and more and more stuff is added every few months. I'm loving my time there, just like I did before greed killed SWG.
To be honest, the village, and the pre pub 9 grind system for jedi was fine. There were STILL a bunch of non Jedi PvPers running around STILL bounty hunters hunting them. It was great. I would rather PvP on my Rifleman Combat Medic than my jedi anyways.
There were a few things in the NGE that really were awesome I wish they would have had pre-cu. Namely player bounty hunting, that shit was amazing and I used SO much time doing it.
NOT TRUE japormsx,
SWG was killed to help SWTOR.
COH was killed because the cash store never took off. COH had plenty of subs but Ncsoft wanted the cash store revenues. COH subs were so loyal there was just no chance for them to make money there.
Had similar experiences. Had a lot of fun in that game with friends. Now I'm sad. Time to go get a donut.
This type of memory and nostalgia has happened to me in many MMOs I have played. This has little to do with the actual design of the game and more to do with players being social and interactive with the world around them. I have many memories of similar events like this one from FFXI, but I do not wish to go back to that game any longer.
I will give you this.... most MMOs out there now do not help promote this kind of behavior and team work.
A few people here who think there are great are not enough demand.
Perhaps, but I see COH closing as a matter of ROI perception. If they could use the server space for something with a higher ROI, it makes sense to get rid of the lower ROI.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Yeah .. COH is just not making enough money anymore (meaning there is just not enough demand, despite a small number of players really like the game).
Not disagreeing at all with your statement or anyone else who said CoH had low subs and was a total niche game.
In fact even after its big peak (a few months past release) I remember them opening the Arena system (that no one played) and my first thought was, "Why make instanced arena fights? Its just going to take more people out of the game world."
I dont think anyone is here to blame anyone for these games not doing well, or even begin to say that things could have been different if the developers just did "X".
But what you can do is look at how much times have changed, and how much better of an exposure these games would have now.
At the time of SWG, COH, there was no Twitch, barely any youtube, you had to go onto third party sites to even find a glimpse of these games because MMO's were also new and barely covered on major sites/TV (Even G4 disliked the MMO).
I think what people are forgetting is that at the time these games came out, MMO'S WERE THE NICHE GENRE!!!
City of Heroes did do well.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
No. People are not forgetting that. It is just that people do not think that is relevant anymore after so many years.
If a dev need to spend tens of millions on a product, they probably don't want it to be niche.
This right here. Jedi and the hologrind destroyed the game as far as I am concerned.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Wtf? It had a good run and therefore did well. Are you one of those who only see the top earner as doing well and everyone else sucks? You have to remember, COH was out before wow. Wow changed perceptions. COH did well. Perhaps you weren't around back then.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
From the beginning it's never been about "players have changed." Nothing's really changed except developer's expectations.
The initial MMORPGs were always intended for a small player base. 100K, 200K, 500K? These were big numbers 15 years ago. That's the only thing that changed. Developers want 10 times the player bases now.
If someone were to developer a game styled after the original MMORPGs, Assuming it was designed, coded and monetized properly, I would expect the same number of players. And most likely, they would remain loyal to the game for several years if not longer.
They were niche games. All MMORPGs were at that time. WoW changed it and produced the "Meta MMO". One for EVERYBODY.
Just out of curiosity as I didn't play either of the SWGs, but if it was so popular and populated why did the revamp it?
IIRC CoH was developed on $5 mil. They had private investment from a relative of the original development crew. Of course, more was invested and implemented as time went on. But it was pretty fully amortized. With a small crew it could have been a chugging money printing machine. Just not a huge one.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
It takes someone at HQ who is unwilling to fight (or fighting to kill it) to guarantee a project hitting the shitter. I'm sure in some of the cases mentioned there were people at the company who just didn't care and let the games die. In the case of SWG it was EA and Lucasarts conspiring. The Bioware/LA cabal was like Game of Thrones where the villains are the heroes in a nihilistic world of rewarded treachery.