Originally posted by mnemic666 It's kind of hilarious how few people seem to remember that a beta is for testing incomplete content/systems rather than it being a marketing demo. While I think SOE does sometimes jump the gun with things and release them a bit too early, I'm a fan of how they're actually treating a beta...as a beta. Refreshing after so many years of public marketing betas.
that argument gets sooooooooooooooo old... it comes up every time...and in 95% of the releases in recent years it simply was not valid...
People don't understand what Beta testing is really all about. That's not surprising since neither do MMO developers. By the time something is in Beta, it's pretty much WYSIWYG except to fix game breakers and add polish. You don't go back to the drawing board in Beta. You don't re design concepts.
No, this is a HUGE failure. The combat system failed and now they need to back pedal. Well, I suppose by now, they've seen what happens when they try to force stuff on players that doesn't work. And I guess I can't blame SOE for not coming out and admitting they fumbled. But it also means there is a lot more going on here. I don't think this game is turning out quite like they envisioned. I wouldn't hold my breath on EQN being released any time in the next few years. But it's better to wait for a better game. Problem is, if they wait too long, it will end up being for nothing becausee their innovative edge will slip away the longer it takes.
They had barley even begun to work on EQ: Next when they first announced it, you realize that MMORPGs sometimes take up to 5 years to be fully developed? I'm all against action combat as a forced choice (as an option it's actually fun at times), but jeeze people... The one time SOE seems to be taking time their on a game (to the point where they created another game for mechanics that they wish to add to the main game to be tested) and they receive so much hate. If it had been released this year everyone would be saying it was rushed.
SOE can't seem to win no matter what!
Whoa........ I wasn't saying the game failed. I was saying this combat system that has been implemented so far, has failed. And I did point out that it's good they are re evaluating it.
What I am also saying is that either this really isn't a Beta, or they are downplaying the severity of what happened here.
And that when people throw around the argument that "It's still in beta" without understanding what that means and that by, then they are way beyond the stage that SOE should at now with LM's combat. IT's about terminology, not SOE.
Again, I'll repeat....This is a good thing that SOE is re evaluating. But it's also a big thing. And that means far more time to fix than what you might think after reading the release statement.
Now, if they weren't willing to go back and re evaluate, then I'd call the game a failure.
He had to say something after the uproar of dislike came out over there on the official forums. It is basically the same few people trying to tell everyone how superior action combat is.. Everyone else is giving ideas how to make it better and not cringe worthy.
Combat Movement speeds need to be reduced.
Manual Dodge and Block need to be added ASAP.
Magic system already needs a do over. Very clunky and unresponsive.
On the bright side the game runs better now.
And above all the trinity needs to be in the game ( EQN also ).. GW2 showed us what group dynamics are like without it.. Non existent.
slapping a "EQ" tag on every idea they come up with is simply lazy..
also a lil off topic why are they making mmorpgs look like something out of sat. morning cartoons ..i guess we know what the mass devs are trying to target now days because its much easyer to please them with simple mechanics
this pvp style is such fail-sauce and true mmo's are slowly flowing thru the gutter to the sewers
ppl are gonna say well they could change it! its not written in stone! they are still working on improving it!
naw..sry..much wont change imo i dont see them scrapping this whole idea that they have already spent tons of money on
Originally posted by Areteo Every time. Every time I see a new Landmark/Next video, I get excited...until it starts running and I see the horrible cartoon figures. Sigh.
How many times do you have to see the game to remember it's not for you and move on? Either your memory is really that bad, or you are trolling.
I love this game, and have to laugh at all the "I hate Landmark because......cartooooons!" comments. Who cares about innovation particularly in the building category. The cartoons make the game a fail hehe!
Originally posted by Vutar So what he's saying is, even though action style combat has failed in every MMORPG to date, the EQnext team refuses to acknowledge this and will charge ahead into the abyss. Okay, I guess.
Actually what I think he's saying is:
Combat is pretty basic and raw at the moment. Instead of spending a lot of time and resources building it behind closed doors and finding out you guys don't like it. We would rather build it openly and get everyones input on what works and on what sucks.
Come on. This is SOE, they don't give a damn about what players think, they never have and never will. Keep drinking that yellow cool-aid and don't bothering asking why it tastes weird.
Originally posted by nuttob I love this game, and have to laugh at all the "I hate Landmark because......cartooooons!" comments. Who cares about innovation particularly in the building category. The cartoons make the game a fail hehe!
Yeah, god forbid people be angry about them taking their beloved franchise and just pissing all over it in the art style department. Why would anybody be angry about that.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
He had to say something after the uproar of dislike came out over there on the official forums. It is basically the same few people trying to tell everyone how superior action combat is.. Everyone else is giving ideas how to make it better and not cringe worthy.
Combat Movement speeds need to be reduced.
Manual Dodge and Block need to be added ASAP.
Magic system already needs a do over. Very clunky and unresponsive.
On the bright side the game runs better now.
And above all the trinity needs to be in the game ( EQN also ).. GW2 showed us what group dynamics are like without it.. Non existent.
I fully agree with everything but the last comment. While they should of addressed the state of combat a bit better up front, to think that it is 99% complete as some seem to be concluding is just silly. They have and will continue to develop it as time goes on. Can't say if they'll do as you suggested, but I'm assuming they'll be quite a bit of changes from now until release of either game, especially EQN.
Last comment about the trinity is a big hell no for me. GW2 showed us what happens when you make PVP classes balanced around 1 vs 1 and 5 vs 5 combat and toss in PVE with lame AI and no "challenge." Has nothing to do with the trinity itself. If anything, having taunt and heal bots or whatever trinity elements would make PVE in GW2 even worse/easier. I'm fully looking forward to whatever Storybricks provides and a character system that I am in control of.
Originally posted by Vutar So what he's saying is, even though action style combat has failed in every MMORPG to date, the EQnext team refuses to acknowledge this and will charge ahead into the abyss. Okay, I guess.
What games have failed and how do you determine that?
NW, Tera, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, insert decent number of upcoming games... While we are talking MMORPGs, the number of "successful" action games is pretty long in other genres. I see no reason a company couldn't pull it off in this one.
You not liking it =/= fail.
SOE seems fully aware of the shortcomings of these games and has said as much. Doesn't mean you throw out a potentially great design because either other companies did it a certain way or missing elements weren't available.
Not saying EQN will have mind blowing, everyone loves it, action combat, but they aren't carbon copying previous games and have a few tricks up their sleeves that others didn't have.
The current version isn't too far off from other games and as he said, is just the bones. Which makes sense as previous games were fairly lacking for me, good idea, not the best execution. Now if they don't follow through and the AI is meh and combat doesn't get a lot of polish, I'll have the pitchfork ready, but that time hasn't come yet.
He had to say something after the uproar of dislike came out over there on the official forums. It is basically the same few people trying to tell everyone how superior action combat is.. Everyone else is giving ideas how to make it better and not cringe worthy.
Combat Movement speeds need to be reduced.
Manual Dodge and Block need to be added ASAP.
Magic system already needs a do over. Very clunky and unresponsive.
On the bright side the game runs better now.
And above all the trinity needs to be in the game ( EQN also ).. GW2 showed us what group dynamics are like without it.. Non existent.
I fully agree with everything but the last comment. While they should of addressed the state of combat a bit better up front, to think that it is 99% complete as some seem to be concluding is just silly. They have and will continue to develop it as time goes on. Can't say if they'll do as you suggested, but I'm assuming they'll be quite a bit of changes from now until release of either game, especially EQN.
Last comment about the trinity is a big hell no for me. GW2 showed us what happens when you make PVP classes balanced around 1 vs 1 and 5 vs 5 combat and toss in PVE with lame AI and no "challenge." Has nothing to do with the trinity itself. If anything, having taunt and heal bots or whatever trinity elements would make PVE in GW2 even worse/easier. I'm fully looking forward to whatever Storybricks provides and a character system that I am in control of.
You are smoking crack if you think that GW2 would be WORSE off with a trinity system. THE biggest complaint people have with dungeons and raids in the game is completely due to the lack of trinity (or quasi trinity).
But, you don't need to be worried. EQN took a huge part of its inspiration with GW2 and its (supposed) horizontal progression system and lack of trinity. So, once it releases you will have your ideal game, just don't expect a lot of people to be there with you after the first few months.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by Binny45 I'd rather wait and get more polish than have everything rushed out the door....like almost all the MMO releases within the last 10 years.
There is waiting and then there is SOE waiting. It is getting old and frankly I am forgetting why I even cared to see this game developed.... EQ Next 2016.... maybe?
I want a well polished, finished game to play just the same as the next guy/gal but SOE and well polished have not been terms I use together often so my hopes of a well polished, playable EQ Next seems to be a very distant glimmer.
In the past, game companies made games because they wanted to make games, making money was high up on the list but it was at the very highest 2nd place. 1st on the list was make this cool game we want to make.
Now, game companies are controlled by suits from conglomerates like EA, Activision, etc. Who go in and priority number 1 is not making an inspired, artistic, cool game, but "how can we milk every possible dime from the players".
In that vein, horrible cartoony graphics not only run on more systems, thus expanding your potential customer base, but they also appeal to a broader audience, so they can get not only the adults who dont mind the cartoony, but maybe the 12 and 13 or younger kids of those adults who will beg for an account, etc etc etc.
Why do you think minecraft was so popular, My roommate, who is NOT a gamer, effing loves that game, and why, because it runs on her 5 year old $400 (at the time) el crappo laptop. She is not going to go out and spend $500 or $600 on a PC so she can play "proper" games.
Sadly, the game industry is a complete joke now.
Consoles are crap, rather than pushing the enveloped they've succumbed to the same BS, and as a result use cheap, mid/low end hardware.
PC's are still awesome hardware wise, but only a handful of developers are willing to keep trying to push the envelope. Most developers are just trying to milk the cash.
Its a sad state of affairs.
Yet people still buy and play a wide variety of games. Whenever I see this generalized doom and gloom, I always wonder if the other side ever looks in the mirror. Maybe it is you and your personal wants not matching what others might like?
Please do not put devs, old or new, on a pedestal where they just "want to make a good game." Really? You think devs today just want to collect a check and don't care at all? Not saying it isn't true, but seems pretty extreme.
If SOE and the "suits" wanted cash, they would of pumped out EQ3, EQ4, random games A, B,C, etc and just hoped for some bites. People go where the quality is. If a company makes a piece of crap and is universally agreed to be as such, who is going to play it? If a company doesn't have enough faith in it's product, it should never see the light of day (Titan).
It has and will always come down to the dollar. Unless someone is giving away their sweat and tear covered product for free, it is about the money. Which I don't see many game companies doing. And yes F2P is just as expensive as the rest.
You make the assumption that SOE and it's devs don't find Landmark or EQN to be "cool" because you don't. Maybe you simply aren't their demographic by choice or personal taste and they are really excited, as some fans are, about what they are doing. Doesn't take away any "cool" points. Honestly would be bored to death if I was a dev tasked with making just another game.
Also don't get why aiming at a large variety of players is looked on as bad. Again, doesn't detract from a game because it isn't for one specific type of player. Simply is what it is.
I find all the new "retro" style games to not be for me. Doesn't mean they are bad because of the graphics or art style, simply not my taste. Same for most Eastern games. We like what we like, doesn't instantly make something garbage because it doesn't fit into our strict bullet list of requirements to be a "good" game.
I sincerely hope this is an understatement because combat is atrocious atm and really needs a complete rework. The good news is it's really the only thing holding me back from trying EQNext aside from starring in a Disney movie.
You are smoking crack if you think that GW2 would be WORSE off with a trinity system. THE biggest complaint people have with dungeons and raids in the game is completely due to the lack of trinity (or quasi trinity).
But, you don't need to be worried. EQN took a huge part of its inspiration with GW2 and its (supposed) horizontal progression system and lack of trinity. So, once it releases you will have your ideal game, just don't expect a lot of people to be there with you after the first few months.
How would it be better or help? As every class is self sufficient and a DPS machine, the only way the trinity would even work is completely redesigning classes, skills, combat, group tactics, etc. Basically a different game. Adding easy taunt controls or whack a mole healing and what not, wouldn't instantly make it "better" with the current design.
Yet some people seem to really enjoy GW2's PVE, which I get as it can be fun for those that like to button mash and what not, but it isn't very complex for me. GW2 falls into the same trap of having dumb AI with tons of HP/DMG to make up for it, where the trinity shines. GW2 is a PVP game to be and that is what it is best at. PVE seems like a total afterthought.
What did EQN take from GW2? I'd love to see the specific features lifted. Especially anything actually unique to GW2. Seems people didn't know small skill bars and action combat existed before GW2. It also has a vertical progression system, just a much lower ceiling then most games as again, it is a PVP game and the "end game" is sPVP or WvWVW and a distant third, PVE. Nothing like what they've shown for EQN/Landmark's "horizontal" design.
I have no idea if I'll like EQN or not until I actually some form of it in action. Landmark's current state and tech demos =/= EQN. Could end up hating it, but the design and concepts they are selling sound very good to me. Just as many games before have. It is all about the final product though. I'm simply not blinded by anger/hate or general disgruntled gamer issues to throw in the towel and say "fail" before it has even had a chance.
EQN might not be the perfect game for every single gamer, but at least in theory, it has a lot to offer. Much as WoW did back in the day and it seems to have done pretty well, despite itself. No reason another game can't catch some of that magic, although I'm not expecting EQN to be nearly as huge as WoW. Looking at the current market and future games, nothing really coming that has a chance of making a splash really. EQN is the only one I see hitting a lot of bullet points for a wide variety of players. You don't have to be a very narrow demo to like it. Unlike a decent chunk of others. Again, this could turn out terrible, but I doubt I'll be adventuring alone in EQN.
Edit: This was said today...
<p bbcodequote"="" data-author="Michael Flatley">
How they will do this with Storybricks and keep it from doing a giant game of Ping Pong is unknown, but they say SB is the secret sauce of EQN. I'm hopeful but not delusional to think it will be perfect. But after 15 years of the trinity, I'm ready for someone to try something else, besides simply removing the trinity with nothing to replace it with (GW2). One of the outsourced AI devs that was working on EQN is now working on GW2, maybe it will get a much needed AI boost down the line. Seems they don't believe that simply adding the trinity is the solution either, AI is a very big part of why the trinity works or doesn't.
Originally posted by Binny45I'd rather wait and get more polish than have everything rushed out the door....like almost all the MMO releases within the last 10 years.
There is waiting and then there is SOE waiting. It is getting old and frankly I am forgetting why I even cared to see this game developed.... EQ Next 2016.... maybe?
It was announced in November/December 2013. How long of a turn around were people expecting? If it took the traditional production time of 3-5 years then it would be released in 2016/2018.
If they get something playable out by 2015 then that might please fans, but manage your expectations accordingly.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I sincerely hope this is an understatement because combat is atrocious atm and really needs a complete rework. The good news is it's really the only thing holding me back from trying EQNext aside from starring in a Disney movie.
Or the fact that you can't play it......... Why don't you kids wait until the game comes out and then see if you like it. Or we can keep making the same complaints for the next two years until the game actually comes out.
He had to say something after the uproar of dislike came out over there on the official forums. It is basically the same few people trying to tell everyone how superior action combat is.. Everyone else is giving ideas how to make it better and not cringe worthy.
Combat Movement speeds need to be reduced.
Manual Dodge and Block need to be added ASAP.
Magic system already needs a do over. Very clunky and unresponsive.
On the bright side the game runs better now.
And above all the trinity needs to be in the game ( EQN also ).. GW2 showed us what group dynamics are like without it.. Non existent.
I fully agree with everything but the last comment. While they should of addressed the state of combat a bit better up front, to think that it is 99% complete as some seem to be concluding is just silly. They have and will continue to develop it as time goes on. Can't say if they'll do as you suggested, but I'm assuming they'll be quite a bit of changes from now until release of either game, especially EQN.
Last comment about the trinity is a big hell no for me. GW2 showed us what happens when you make PVP classes balanced around 1 vs 1 and 5 vs 5 combat and toss in PVE with lame AI and no "challenge." Has nothing to do with the trinity itself. If anything, having taunt and heal bots or whatever trinity elements would make PVE in GW2 even worse/easier. I'm fully looking forward to whatever Storybricks provides and a character system that I am in control of.
Except the trinity in some form ( I do not mean like the usual tab target type games ) is needed for good group play. Without it ( roles ) everyone will be running around DPSing. I like the way ESO handled it much more than the way GW2 went about it.
Originally posted by nuttob I love this game, and have to laugh at all the "I hate Landmark because......cartooooons!" comments. Who cares about innovation particularly in the building category. The cartoons make the game a fail hehe!
Yeah, god forbid people be angry about them taking their beloved franchise and just pissing all over it in the art style department. Why would anybody be angry about that.
I'd say the true deviation from the franchise was EQ2, EQ pretty much had stylized art. It certainly wasn't gritty or realistic, it was colorful and exaggerated.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Binny45 I'd rather wait and get more polish than have everything rushed out the door....like almost all the MMO releases within the last 10 years.
There is waiting and then there is SOE waiting. It is getting old and frankly I am forgetting why I even cared to see this game developed.... EQ Next 2016.... maybe?
I want a well polished, finished game to play just the same as the next guy/gal but SOE and well polished have not been terms I use together often so my hopes of a well polished, playable EQ Next seems to be a very distant glimmer.
"Next" is the shortened form of "Next decade or so"
How do people not get they are Alpha testing? This is the only problem with paying to get into testing. To many people think this means they have paid for a game thats functional lol. Of any MMO to date, this is the soonest in development that any game has been open to the public.
Except the trinity in some form ( I do not mean like the usual tab target type games ) is needed for good group play. Without it ( roles ) everyone will be running around DPSing. I like the way ESO handled it much more than the way GW2 went about it.
I agree, but EQN will not lack roles or group dynamics (see my above Edit and Quote from Georgeson). They've said that since the reveal that the roles we love (tank, healer, support, dps, etc) will still exist. Simply not in "the usual tab target type games" way.
Big difference seems to be that you aren't forced into a one dimensional role. You aren't just a healer or just a tank or just .....
As seen with the added weapons/skills, many have double duty. Such as while attacking, you also buff/heal allies or while healing you debuff/attack enemies. Roles become more fluid. I'm sure someone could just stand there and spam whatever "heal" like skill, but that is counter productive. At the same time, if someone goes full DPS and neglects their team, they might be doing more harm then good.
This is why usually even in a strict trinity tab game, PVP functions very different then PVE. You might be just a healer/tank in PVE, but in PVP, you become DPS/CC and whatever other utility skills that never get used in PVE. If you only focus on one aspect of a class, it can be harmful, not that it can't also work, but usually using your full tool set is better.
ESO does have better options in my eyes compared to GW2, which has a lot to do with the options available to build a character. GW2 is very streamlined for singular purposes (DPS for the most part). While there are support/utility builds in GW2, by design, DPS is a good way to get to a result. If you factor in any sort of "smart" AI, which SOE is saying they will have, more variables come into play. If a mob can dodge, CC, heal, combo of friendlies, use terrain, etc, simply spamming DPS might not be so cut and dry.
So I believe that if used loosely, EQN will have the trinity. But it won't be what we've come to expect and love/hate depending on each of us. You might not "need" a Cleric in your party, but having one might make things a ton more enjoyable. Or if you want to run a "Healer" group, you could still play the game as you aren't limited to everyone standing in the back staring at health bars go up and down. If I'm playing a caster, wearing cloth, lacking heals or a ton of defense, I'm not going to turn down a player wielding a big shield and heavy armor, with a bunch of defensive skills. Regardless if they can taunt or whatever.
Guess my issue is the view that since previous game(s) did something superficially similar, that another game will end the same way, if not worse. Correlation does not imply causation. Sure if could end up the exact same as GW2 or insert game that people dislike for whatever reason, but until we see it in action, will we actually know.
Seems many have the solution for a problem that doesn't even exist yet. I get people having issue with the art style and more non-mechanic design choices, but things like going with aiming, action combat, open character design, are features that really have to be tried and tested before pulling out the "Fail" card.
Originally posted by Vutar So what he's saying is, even though action style combat has failed in every MMORPG to date, the EQnext team refuses to acknowledge this and will charge ahead into the abyss. Okay, I guess.
I am getting this impression. seem like Sony is trying to cover for this mistake. the game was developed during the GW2's action combat hype period. Now people dont really like that as much now after experiencing the hype for themselves, and it was too late to turn back by then for Sony.
Originally posted by Vutar So what he's saying is, even though action style combat has failed in every MMORPG to date, the EQnext team refuses to acknowledge this and will charge ahead into the abyss. Okay, I guess.
I am getting this impression. seem like Sony is trying to cover for this mistake. the game was developed during the GW2's action combat hype period. Now people dont really like that as much now after experiencing the hype for themselves, and it was too late to turn back by then for Sony.
I agree totally and i even tried TERA,it is just weak sauce.This what ruins game creativity,these big shots see a market trend and that is what they aim for,instead of making THEIR OWN creative ideas.Also what have we seen in EQ2 over the years,they dumbed every system down to make it easier to design,i expect nothing to change and that is also why they adopted Story Bricks,another weapon that allows EASE of design.
One other thing i should mention is that,his excuse of what would end up being a ridiculous circle strafing game is lack of AI,NO that is NOT going to help anything besides the fact,WHY is there no AI at this point?It does not take a year or two to code in AI,i mean seriously did they just start on this game last month?
None the less i have not lost total faith in their team i will still anticipate the release and see what it has to offer.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
Whoa........ I wasn't saying the game failed. I was saying this combat system that has been implemented so far, has failed. And I did point out that it's good they are re evaluating it.
What I am also saying is that either this really isn't a Beta, or they are downplaying the severity of what happened here.
And that when people throw around the argument that "It's still in beta" without understanding what that means and that by, then they are way beyond the stage that SOE should at now with LM's combat. IT's about terminology, not SOE.
Again, I'll repeat....This is a good thing that SOE is re evaluating. But it's also a big thing. And that means far more time to fix than what you might think after reading the release statement.
Now, if they weren't willing to go back and re evaluate, then I'd call the game a failure.
He had to say something after the uproar of dislike came out over there on the official forums. It is basically the same few people trying to tell everyone how superior action combat is.. Everyone else is giving ideas how to make it better and not cringe worthy.
Combat Movement speeds need to be reduced.
Manual Dodge and Block need to be added ASAP.
Magic system already needs a do over. Very clunky and unresponsive.
On the bright side the game runs better now.
And above all the trinity needs to be in the game ( EQN also ).. GW2 showed us what group dynamics are like without it.. Non existent.
Actually, the took the EQ tag off of Landmark.
Take that!
How many times do you have to see the game to remember it's not for you and move on? Either your memory is really that bad, or you are trolling.
Come on. This is SOE, they don't give a damn about what players think, they never have and never will. Keep drinking that yellow cool-aid and don't bothering asking why it tastes weird.
Yeah, god forbid people be angry about them taking their beloved franchise and just pissing all over it in the art style department. Why would anybody be angry about that.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I fully agree with everything but the last comment. While they should of addressed the state of combat a bit better up front, to think that it is 99% complete as some seem to be concluding is just silly. They have and will continue to develop it as time goes on. Can't say if they'll do as you suggested, but I'm assuming they'll be quite a bit of changes from now until release of either game, especially EQN.
Last comment about the trinity is a big hell no for me. GW2 showed us what happens when you make PVP classes balanced around 1 vs 1 and 5 vs 5 combat and toss in PVE with lame AI and no "challenge." Has nothing to do with the trinity itself. If anything, having taunt and heal bots or whatever trinity elements would make PVE in GW2 even worse/easier. I'm fully looking forward to whatever Storybricks provides and a character system that I am in control of.
What games have failed and how do you determine that?
NW, Tera, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, insert decent number of upcoming games... While we are talking MMORPGs, the number of "successful" action games is pretty long in other genres. I see no reason a company couldn't pull it off in this one.
You not liking it =/= fail.
SOE seems fully aware of the shortcomings of these games and has said as much. Doesn't mean you throw out a potentially great design because either other companies did it a certain way or missing elements weren't available.
Not saying EQN will have mind blowing, everyone loves it, action combat, but they aren't carbon copying previous games and have a few tricks up their sleeves that others didn't have.
The current version isn't too far off from other games and as he said, is just the bones. Which makes sense as previous games were fairly lacking for me, good idea, not the best execution. Now if they don't follow through and the AI is meh and combat doesn't get a lot of polish, I'll have the pitchfork ready, but that time hasn't come yet.
You are smoking crack if you think that GW2 would be WORSE off with a trinity system. THE biggest complaint people have with dungeons and raids in the game is completely due to the lack of trinity (or quasi trinity).
But, you don't need to be worried. EQN took a huge part of its inspiration with GW2 and its (supposed) horizontal progression system and lack of trinity. So, once it releases you will have your ideal game, just don't expect a lot of people to be there with you after the first few months.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
There is waiting and then there is SOE waiting. It is getting old and frankly I am forgetting why I even cared to see this game developed.... EQ Next 2016.... maybe?
I want a well polished, finished game to play just the same as the next guy/gal but SOE and well polished have not been terms I use together often so my hopes of a well polished, playable EQ Next seems to be a very distant glimmer.
Yet people still buy and play a wide variety of games. Whenever I see this generalized doom and gloom, I always wonder if the other side ever looks in the mirror. Maybe it is you and your personal wants not matching what others might like?
Please do not put devs, old or new, on a pedestal where they just "want to make a good game." Really? You think devs today just want to collect a check and don't care at all? Not saying it isn't true, but seems pretty extreme.
If SOE and the "suits" wanted cash, they would of pumped out EQ3, EQ4, random games A, B,C, etc and just hoped for some bites. People go where the quality is. If a company makes a piece of crap and is universally agreed to be as such, who is going to play it? If a company doesn't have enough faith in it's product, it should never see the light of day (Titan).
It has and will always come down to the dollar. Unless someone is giving away their sweat and tear covered product for free, it is about the money. Which I don't see many game companies doing. And yes F2P is just as expensive as the rest.
You make the assumption that SOE and it's devs don't find Landmark or EQN to be "cool" because you don't. Maybe you simply aren't their demographic by choice or personal taste and they are really excited, as some fans are, about what they are doing. Doesn't take away any "cool" points. Honestly would be bored to death if I was a dev tasked with making just another game.
Also don't get why aiming at a large variety of players is looked on as bad. Again, doesn't detract from a game because it isn't for one specific type of player. Simply is what it is.
I find all the new "retro" style games to not be for me. Doesn't mean they are bad because of the graphics or art style, simply not my taste. Same for most Eastern games. We like what we like, doesn't instantly make something garbage because it doesn't fit into our strict bullet list of requirements to be a "good" game.
"This is *not* the final form of combat." ~ Dave
I sincerely hope this is an understatement because combat is atrocious atm and really needs a complete rework. The good news is it's really the only thing holding me back from trying EQNext aside from starring in a Disney movie.
How would it be better or help? As every class is self sufficient and a DPS machine, the only way the trinity would even work is completely redesigning classes, skills, combat, group tactics, etc. Basically a different game. Adding easy taunt controls or whack a mole healing and what not, wouldn't instantly make it "better" with the current design.
Yet some people seem to really enjoy GW2's PVE, which I get as it can be fun for those that like to button mash and what not, but it isn't very complex for me. GW2 falls into the same trap of having dumb AI with tons of HP/DMG to make up for it, where the trinity shines. GW2 is a PVP game to be and that is what it is best at. PVE seems like a total afterthought.
What did EQN take from GW2? I'd love to see the specific features lifted. Especially anything actually unique to GW2. Seems people didn't know small skill bars and action combat existed before GW2. It also has a vertical progression system, just a much lower ceiling then most games as again, it is a PVP game and the "end game" is sPVP or WvWVW and a distant third, PVE. Nothing like what they've shown for EQN/Landmark's "horizontal" design.
I have no idea if I'll like EQN or not until I actually some form of it in action. Landmark's current state and tech demos =/= EQN. Could end up hating it, but the design and concepts they are selling sound very good to me. Just as many games before have. It is all about the final product though. I'm simply not blinded by anger/hate or general disgruntled gamer issues to throw in the towel and say "fail" before it has even had a chance.
EQN might not be the perfect game for every single gamer, but at least in theory, it has a lot to offer. Much as WoW did back in the day and it seems to have done pretty well, despite itself. No reason another game can't catch some of that magic, although I'm not expecting EQN to be nearly as huge as WoW. Looking at the current market and future games, nothing really coming that has a chance of making a splash really. EQN is the only one I see hitting a lot of bullet points for a wide variety of players. You don't have to be a very narrow demo to like it. Unlike a decent chunk of others. Again, this could turn out terrible, but I doubt I'll be adventuring alone in EQN.
Edit: This was said today...
<p bbcodequote"="" data-author="Michael Flatley">How they will do this with Storybricks and keep it from doing a giant game of Ping Pong is unknown, but they say SB is the secret sauce of EQN. I'm hopeful but not delusional to think it will be perfect. But after 15 years of the trinity, I'm ready for someone to try something else, besides simply removing the trinity with nothing to replace it with (GW2). One of the outsourced AI devs that was working on EQN is now working on GW2, maybe it will get a much needed AI boost down the line. Seems they don't believe that simply adding the trinity is the solution either, AI is a very big part of why the trinity works or doesn't.
It was announced in November/December 2013. How long of a turn around were people expecting?
If it took the traditional production time of 3-5 years then it would be released in 2016/2018.
If they get something playable out by 2015 then that might please fans, but manage your expectations accordingly.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Or the fact that you can't play it......... Why don't you kids wait until the game comes out and then see if you like it. Or we can keep making the same complaints for the next two years until the game actually comes out.
Except the trinity in some form ( I do not mean like the usual tab target type games ) is needed for good group play. Without it ( roles ) everyone will be running around DPSing. I like the way ESO handled it much more than the way GW2 went about it.
I'd say the true deviation from the franchise was EQ2, EQ pretty much had stylized art. It certainly wasn't gritty or realistic, it was colorful and exaggerated.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"Next" is the shortened form of "Next decade or so"
I agree, but EQN will not lack roles or group dynamics (see my above Edit and Quote from Georgeson). They've said that since the reveal that the roles we love (tank, healer, support, dps, etc) will still exist. Simply not in "the usual tab target type games" way.
Big difference seems to be that you aren't forced into a one dimensional role. You aren't just a healer or just a tank or just .....
As seen with the added weapons/skills, many have double duty. Such as while attacking, you also buff/heal allies or while healing you debuff/attack enemies. Roles become more fluid. I'm sure someone could just stand there and spam whatever "heal" like skill, but that is counter productive. At the same time, if someone goes full DPS and neglects their team, they might be doing more harm then good.
This is why usually even in a strict trinity tab game, PVP functions very different then PVE. You might be just a healer/tank in PVE, but in PVP, you become DPS/CC and whatever other utility skills that never get used in PVE. If you only focus on one aspect of a class, it can be harmful, not that it can't also work, but usually using your full tool set is better.
ESO does have better options in my eyes compared to GW2, which has a lot to do with the options available to build a character. GW2 is very streamlined for singular purposes (DPS for the most part). While there are support/utility builds in GW2, by design, DPS is a good way to get to a result. If you factor in any sort of "smart" AI, which SOE is saying they will have, more variables come into play. If a mob can dodge, CC, heal, combo of friendlies, use terrain, etc, simply spamming DPS might not be so cut and dry.
So I believe that if used loosely, EQN will have the trinity. But it won't be what we've come to expect and love/hate depending on each of us. You might not "need" a Cleric in your party, but having one might make things a ton more enjoyable. Or if you want to run a "Healer" group, you could still play the game as you aren't limited to everyone standing in the back staring at health bars go up and down. If I'm playing a caster, wearing cloth, lacking heals or a ton of defense, I'm not going to turn down a player wielding a big shield and heavy armor, with a bunch of defensive skills. Regardless if they can taunt or whatever.
Guess my issue is the view that since previous game(s) did something superficially similar, that another game will end the same way, if not worse. Correlation does not imply causation. Sure if could end up the exact same as GW2 or insert game that people dislike for whatever reason, but until we see it in action, will we actually know.
Seems many have the solution for a problem that doesn't even exist yet. I get people having issue with the art style and more non-mechanic design choices, but things like going with aiming, action combat, open character design, are features that really have to be tried and tested before pulling out the "Fail" card.
I am getting this impression. seem like Sony is trying to cover for this mistake. the game was developed during the GW2's action combat hype period. Now people dont really like that as much now after experiencing the hype for themselves, and it was too late to turn back by then for Sony.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I agree totally and i even tried TERA,it is just weak sauce.This what ruins game creativity,these big shots see a market trend and that is what they aim for,instead of making THEIR OWN creative ideas.Also what have we seen in EQ2 over the years,they dumbed every system down to make it easier to design,i expect nothing to change and that is also why they adopted Story Bricks,another weapon that allows EASE of design.
One other thing i should mention is that,his excuse of what would end up being a ridiculous circle strafing game is lack of AI,NO that is NOT going to help anything besides the fact,WHY is there no AI at this point?It does not take a year or two to code in AI,i mean seriously did they just start on this game last month?
None the less i have not lost total faith in their team i will still anticipate the release and see what it has to offer.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.