Doing a bit more gathering and crafting Im wondering if others encountered the same problem. If that has been mentioned before in the thread, sry if I overlooked it.
Assuming you gather 500 units(or more) of different crafting materials that all end up in 1 recipe you then have to click "All" and "Finish" 500 times because the "Batch" button either isnt available or because if you do "Batch" it doesnt give you a skill point. I found myself starting up a 3rd party macro tool which needs 2min to setup the scenario ( more or less ban worthy depending on your(devs) point of view so I don't recommend using any) just to finish the crafts because the whole *click All* move mouse right *click finish* (skip to end of paragraph) move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish*....was boring to say the least. I really like the depth of crafting meaning that an item takes 10-20 steps to create, but the repetition of the same movement over and over again makes the whole experience "meh" at best.
@devs Maybe you can either add the "Batch" option to all recipes and let it give skill points? Or if that is out of the question then maybe have something like "craft as long as you got material" kind of button? The way it currently works will lead to macros, crafting bots or whatever you want to call them. Believe me, I (co-)wrote many of those and your game would be perfect to make a $ or two with them. I hope you don't get me wrong, I like your game, followed it since the first announcment and want it to be successfull but you must admit you got some flaws here and there. Which isn't that bad I guess because after all, it is alpha.
Every activity in an MMORPG doesn't always have to equate to fun.
Yes it does. I'm not playing a game to work; I'm playing a game to have fun. Now go drink your metamucil, Geezer. =P
I have to agree with GeezerGamer on this one. As long as I'm working towards a goal then everything along the way doesn't have to be fun. Anything fun that I do over and over will eventually not be fun anymore anyway. It's the goal that keeps me interested and playing. If I just want constant "fun" then I'll play a couple FPS matches or an arcade game.
Doing a bit more gathering and crafting Im wondering if others encountered the same problem. If that has been mentioned before in the thread, sry if I overlooked it.
Assuming you gather 500 units(or more) of different crafting materials that all end up in 1 recipe you then have to click "All" and "Finish" 500 times because the "Batch" button either isnt available or because if you do "Batch" it doesnt give you a skill point. I found myself starting up a 3rd party macro tool which needs 2min to setup the scenario ( more or less ban worthy depending on your(devs) point of view so I don't recommend using any) just to finish the crafts because the whole *click All* move mouse right *click finish* (skip to end of paragraph) move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish*....was boring to say the least. I really like the depth of crafting meaning that an item takes 10-20 steps to create, but the repetition of the same movement over and over again makes the whole experience "meh" at best.
@devs Maybe you can either add the "Batch" option to all recipes and let it give skill points? Or if that is out of the question then maybe have something like "craft as long as you got material" kind of button? The way it currently works will lead to macros, crafting bots or whatever you want to call them. Believe me, I (co-)wrote many of those and your game would be perfect to make a $ or two with them. I hope you don't get me wrong, I like your game, followed it since the first announcment and want it to be successfull but you must admit you got some flaws here and there. Which isn't that bad I guess because after all, it is alpha.
edit: removed name of 3rd party tool
If you click all you don't have to click finish ... obviously the batch process is still bugged and it's an alpha. Put you concerns on the game official boards maybe ?
there is also diminishing returns...depending on how strong the effect is, alts can make sense BUT
a) i think the devs rather want people to trade with other specialists instead of making alts
b) trying to make several characters really good at something will probably take you 10 years...this isnt wow where you level your skill to master in a few days....
EQ2 tried this same thing at launch. In order to craft armor you needed components made from other crafters. They ended up abandoning it in short order for the simpler crafting system they have today because it proved unworkable. You can't depend on other crafters to always have what you want for sale for a price that is profitable.
Doing a bit more gathering and crafting Im wondering if others encountered the same problem. If that has been mentioned before in the thread, sry if I overlooked it.
Assuming you gather 500 units(or more) of different crafting materials that all end up in 1 recipe you then have to click "All" and "Finish" 500 times because the "Batch" button either isnt available or because if you do "Batch" it doesnt give you a skill point. I found myself starting up a 3rd party macro tool which needs 2min to setup the scenario ( more or less ban worthy depending on your(devs) point of view so I don't recommend using any) just to finish the crafts because the whole *click All* move mouse right *click finish* (skip to end of paragraph) move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish*....was boring to say the least. I really like the depth of crafting meaning that an item takes 10-20 steps to create, but the repetition of the same movement over and over again makes the whole experience "meh" at best.
....
If you click all you don't have to click finish ... obviously the batch process is still bugged and it's an alpha. Put you concerns on the game official boards maybe ?
I know you dont have to click "finish" but if you don't then it takes longer. There is a 2-3 sec delay after you hit "All" but if you click "Finish" that goes away and you can "spam" the crafting process. And sure, I will post it on the official board but so far I havent created an account there yet because I thought I will do so once I had a full review ready which might take a few more days or a week. And because the devs read here I hope they might notice it if not they will read it later. Just another way to ask if anyone is seeing it the way I do really. If there might be a work around which I havent found yet then I could include it in the review, report ... whatever...
edit: and yes it obviously is an alpha, no doubt about that and no offence to the final product. It is alpha so please don't use it against them once it is released. An alpha has problems, many of them but that is the purpose of the stage.
Glad to hear this is the way crafting is. Everyone should have a purpose, and if I'm able to get crafting components without considering buying them from someone else, player driven economy has failed..
EQ2 tried this same thing at launch. In order to craft armor you needed components made from other crafters. They ended up abandoning it in short order for the simpler crafting system they have today because it proved unworkable. You can't depend on other crafters to always have what you want for sale for a price that is profitable.
EQ 2 had a lot of reasons for it's poor launch, but crafting wasn't one of them imo. In the EQ 2 vs. WoW discussions crafting was generally one of their advantages. Don't get me wrong, I like EQ 2, but the problem with the game is that it rushed to try to beat WoW to launch, and players knew the issues heading into launch. The class system completely changed in the final month of development because players hated the old system. The itemization was almost completely generated and bland. There weren't enough quests, half of the content was still group content, etc.
WoW delayed after EQ 2 launched, kept polishing and the rest is history. EQ 2 then slowly began changing features to make it more like WoW, and during that process crafting was one of the casualties. That having been said, the quality of crafted items in EQ 2 was never similar to how they are in Repop. It was interdependent but it was still a loot driven game.
Originally posted by Retired Definitely a step in the right direction for MMO, glad they removed the easy button and also making crafters feel like an important part of the game.
Making things complicated for sake of it never works.. FFXIV 1.0 tried same approach to crafting and we all know how it worked out.
I am all for deep crafting but this is not it.
Sounds like you want trivialized crafting. It sounds like they are going in the right direction For What THEY WANT. It might not be everyone's cup of tea but then again you can simply pass on this game.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I always craft in games that have useful crafting, I loved trader skills in SWG. And have crafted in other games (Vanguard, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth), but nowhere it is as complex as in The Repopulation.
Crafting in the Repopulation is way more complex then for example crafting in SWG ever was. The cool part is that all crafted items are needed. And even tradeskills like mining , fishing, foraging are cool because of the chemical substances you can craft for other tradeskills. This website http://aena.at/craftmap/skill11.html makes it doable because someone took the effort to link all recipes and resources (this must have been a daunting task).
But if you want to craft quality complex items like for example top quality robots, then it becomes just an annoying logistal and time consuming nightmare.
If you want to stick to one upper layer tradeskill (lets say robotics) you will need subcomponents from a large number of other tradeskills. So many, that I just didnt fint it practical anymore to obtain them through trade. It just takes too much time to find all the right quality components on an auction house (if they are even available!). You can set up workorders, but that becomes just a waiting game then. The way it is set up it asks for so many specialisations that I doubt that this MMO will have enough players to support that. Then there is the accumulated costs for the end product. There is no reasonable way anymore to set a price. There are no factories, everything has a quality rating and is handmade.
Then there is the choice to craft all subcomponents yourself, with all subcomponents in top quality, then prepare yourself for a crazy grind and on top of that a logistical nightmare(I also doubt that you will have enough inventory/bank space).
If you also want to gather everything yourself and craft everything yourself in top quality. Say goodbye to friends and family and lock yourself up for the next year or so.
Imo, they went way overboard with the amount of subcomponents for even the simplest of items. It looks cool and convincing though on paper, but in the game it just became annoyingly unpractical for me. So incredibly timeconsuming and you will know that the buyers will never back that up with enough money.
Ofc there will be ppl who will go all out on this and will craft a complete chain in top quality and will become very rich doing that But that just can't be healthy imo.
Originally posted by Dullahan Glad to hear this is the way crafting is. Everyone should have a purpose, and if I'm able to get crafting components without considering buying them from someone else, player driven economy has failed..
I was thinking that. And then I tried it. The whole concept sounds awesome on paper. But then you have to see for yourself. It is not about needing other traders. It is about needing a silly amount of different types of specialised traders. Way too many to be practical.
This has a risk built in, for when a server's population can't support all those different specialisations. The alternative is then to do it yourself. This is possible, but takes a silly amount of time. Not to mention inventory space for the ridiculous amount of different resources. I have never seen this in other MMO's and I crafted in all MMO's that had the reputation of having interesting crafting.
On the other hand, it is still in alpha stage. It is possible that atm for example the skill progression is severely nerfed. And the recipe window, inventory also needs sorting options. Atm its quite annoying to sift through everything.
I would say that example is definitely overboard to not even making sense.
We have all had to at one point make a makeshift band aid and that is NOT how it is done.
A simple bandage would need cloth and an adhesive of some kind,nothing more.That sounds more like an emergency room procedure with open heart surgery lol.Or it sounds like a factory procedure,people would not readily have a factory in their back pocket lol.
It really gives you an idea of the designers mind set,it sounds like they were aiming for grind just for the sake of grind ,without making sense.
I am always running into things in various games that just leave me shaking my head,wtf were they thinking and seems in every game.I guess this is just a realization that no game could ever be 100% satisfactory because you have all sorts of minds working on each individual system,it's not like one guy and his vision alone,so you know exactly what your going to get,nope game direction goes in many directions.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The recipe for bandages is Any Cloth + Any Sterilization agent. You can purchase sterilization agents from NPC vendors (cheaply) or craft them. Cloth is a crafted but can be purchased from other players. That really is the crafting system in a nutshell.
You aren't expected to try to craft all the components on your own. Each recipe has its own mastery levels, allowing players to specialize in components and act as suppliers in a chain. There is a work order system so you can set a price and what you want of what quality and other players can fulfill your needs, similar to a reverse auction (auctions are also supported). And that's how the crafting system is intended to be used. Because each recipe has its own mastery levels players can specialize in a simple component they create at 0 skill and produce that in bulk, then resell to other players to be a supplier in the chain and show profits right away. Looking at the components chain why would people produce cloth? Well it's used in 8 different recipes for things ranging from the bandage, to thread, filters, and clothing/armor.
Where players run into problems is that they have the mentality that they should be doing things all on their own. They take that simple two ingredient recipe for Bandages and they try to create both components on their own, which are made of other components, etc. Suddenly they have a complex recipe which sounds overwhelming. But its because its being approached in the wrong way.
Now using a real life analogy like you said, it would require cloth and an adhesive (in Repop's case a sterlization agent). That's what it requires. Of course somebody created that cloth and the adhesive. You'd buy them at a store. And the same goes with Repop crafting. The complaints some players lodge about having to create the components has to do with them trying to create their own cloth and their own agents.
Originally posted by JC-Smith The recipe for bandages is Any Cloth + Any Sterilization agent. You can purchase sterilization agents from NPC vendors (cheaply) or craft them. Cloth is a crafted but can be purchased from other players. That really is the crafting system in a nutshell.
You aren't expected to try to craft all the components on your own. Each recipe has its own mastery levels, allowing players to specialize in components and act as suppliers in a chain. There is a work order system so you can set a price and what you want of what quality and other players can fulfill your needs, similar to a reverse auction (auctions are also supported). And that's how the crafting system is intended to be used. Because each recipe has its own mastery levels players can specialize in a simple component they create at 0 skill and produce that in bulk, then resell to other players to be a supplier in the chain and show profits right away. Looking at the components chain why would people produce cloth? Well it's used in 8 different recipes for things ranging from the bandage, to thread, filters, and clothing/armor.
Where players run into problems is that they have the mentality that they should be doing things all on their own. They take that simple two ingredient recipe for Bandages and they try to create both components on their own, which are made of other components, etc. Suddenly they have a complex recipe which sounds overwhelming. But its because its being approached in the wrong way.
Now using a real life analogy like you said, it would require cloth and an adhesive (in Repop's case a sterlization agent). That's what it requires. Of course somebody created that cloth and the adhesive. You'd buy them at a store. And the same goes with Repop crafting. The complaints some players lodge about having to create the components has to do with them trying to create their own cloth and their own agents.
But JC... We're talking about a bandage here... not the creation of a modern (or post apocalyptic) combustion engine.
I have piles of light armor that I don't use just sitting around that I find from drops. Couldn't there be some mechanic to simply salvage for components. Even if the very of salvaging itself does not grant any form of skill gain. But to tear up a piece of armor into makeshift cloth strips doesn't require any matter of skill. just a semi sharp tool to start a cut.
As far as sterilization agents, as you mentioned they are purchaseable. I would think some form of antiseptic would be harder to come by than simple cloth. Although usually in field triage a bottle of vodka could make due.
The point of the "bandage analogy" is that the nature of the crafting system is overly cumbersome for simple items. I don't think we're going to be making bandages out of exotic materials such as carbon fiber or kevlar.
The other concern is that which is shared by others which is with such a diverse crafting system in place will the population be interested enough in the many facets of crafting to really have multiple specialists in the necessary component sub categories. If the repop maintains an active player base of 100k - 200k this shouldn't be an issue. I just fear that the intensely intricate nature of the game will drive that number far lower and in turn crate vast holes in the crafting needs.
We've discussed salvaging in the past. No real decision has been made on it. But it has been one of those topics that gets brought up from time to time. It could be something we see happen. It's not in the immediate plans though. First we'll focus on refining the crafting system so it is a bit easier for players to pick up and understand. There's several things underway currently moving towards that.
I wouldn't worry too much about populations post-launch since the game will be F2P. Players will try it. It will be for some and won't be for others. But having enough players to support it shouldn't be a problem, it won't take that many active. It will be tougher in testing until we get to the open beta stage as many players don't like the idea of paying for testing, and many others won't play very often due to their players being wiped when the game releases. I think the tactic most people are using now is to establish supply chains with other players and working directly with them for the most part as they can swap components or services and get a fair deal. Often the auction system is selling items as extortionate prices. The players having the most success crafting now are typically nations which have good chains developed within their nation.
We will continue to refine crafting (as with all areas of the game). But the interdepency is something that we plan on keeping. It won't be for everyone, and we are prepared for that. But we like what it can do for the economy as a whole once everything gets into balance.
Originally posted by JC-Smith The recipe for bandages is Any Cloth + Any Sterilization agent. You can purchase sterilization agents from NPC vendors (cheaply) or craft them. Cloth is a crafted but can be purchased from other players. That really is the crafting system in a nutshell.
You aren't expected to try to craft all the components on your own. Each recipe has its own mastery levels, allowing players to specialize in components and act as suppliers in a chain. There is a work order system so you can set a price and what you want of what quality and other players can fulfill your needs, similar to a reverse auction (auctions are also supported). And that's how the crafting system is intended to be used. Because each recipe has its own mastery levels players can specialize in a simple component they create at 0 skill and produce that in bulk, then resell to other players to be a supplier in the chain and show profits right away. Looking at the components chain why would people produce cloth? Well it's used in 8 different recipes for things ranging from the bandage, to thread, filters, and clothing/armor.
Where players run into problems is that they have the mentality that they should be doing things all on their own. They take that simple two ingredient recipe for Bandages and they try to create both components on their own, which are made of other components, etc. Suddenly they have a complex recipe which sounds overwhelming. But its because its being approached in the wrong way.
Now using a real life analogy like you said, it would require cloth and an adhesive (in Repop's case a sterlization agent). That's what it requires. Of course somebody created that cloth and the adhesive. You'd buy them at a store. And the same goes with Repop crafting. The complaints some players lodge about having to create the components has to do with them trying to create their own cloth and their own agents.
I understand the chain of specialists doing trade with each other , which then ultimately leads to top quality complex end products. When I played SWG this worked awesome. You slowly got to know the other traders you did business with and bartered that way for better deals.
In the case of TR I have some doubts though and some questions about this:
With so many recipes and tradekills to raise, it just seems as if there are too many different specialists needed. And some of the tradeskills are hardly interesting to specialise in, like Chemistry and Metalworks for example (except maybe for the real diehards), because they have no end products to sell to noncrafters and no related gathering activity. Can a server support that many dedicated crafters, so that a robotics or fittings crafter can actually find top quality subcomponents?
Then there are the amount of different resource types and subcomponents. When trying to craft a droid, you will find several layers of subcomponents, from resource to the top, the end product. If like you said, you are supposed to trade for those subcomponents, with layer on top of layer of profit margins, will those droids still be affordable for players? Or will they just be cheaper and simply not reflect the amount of work put in them? With all those specialisations, I can't see gatherers making money for example.
So in short, I see too many interdependant tradeskills that need specialisation and too many layers of subcomponents. Wondering if a server's population can support the specialists and whether there is any money to be made for gatherers (every layer wants to see their time rewarded after all).
Gatherers make bank, especially when their skills start showing reward in the form of high quality mats. The other, offhand, bit I'd mention is that in many cases you'll see crafters with cross-knowledge of other crafting disciplines outside of their primary specialty. There's always a push and pull. Perhaps some crafters will find a secondary knowledge-base very helpful while others may not. In any case, the materials are less vertical than they may seem with some (particularly in Robotics, for example) being easy mob loot drops or similar. At the end of the day carfting things is the easy part. Getting the quality is another.
Originally posted by CrowingOne Gatherers make bank, especially when their skills start showing reward in the form of high quality mats. The other, offhand, bit I'd mention is that in many cases you'll see crafters with cross-knowledge of other crafting disciplines outside of their primary specialty. There's always a push and pull. Perhaps some crafters will find a secondary knowledge-base very helpful while others may not. In any case, the materials are less vertical than they may seem with some (particularly in Robotics, for example) being easy mob loot drops or similar. At the end of the day carfting things is the easy part. Getting the quality is another.
If it comes as loot from humanoids, you have no control over the quality, so for top quality endresult the loot is useless. (I think I only used gathering skills so far to get robot parts). The other way is harvesting from droids with scavenge skill. The quality is then dependant on the same things as with harvesting meat/hides etc from animals. So this is still another tradeskill.
I really expect problems in this game with the amount of different specialisations needed. And there are way too many different resource types. There is a lot of overlap because of the alternatives for a lot of agents. I would not be surprised if at some point they cut that down to a more managable amount.
A quality Medbot from Robotics needs at least Mining, Chemistry, Metalworking, Fishing!! and Logging. All quality based. The listed gathering skills not only needed for the gathering, but also for several of their other recipes to create agents(which is sometimes confusing, because you expect them to be respectively in Chemistry, Culinary, Pharmaceuticals etc). Oh and they are each dependant on others too for the agents to create the subcomponents.
Even usually simple things like with Mining. If you want to produce high quality ingots you are also dependant on chemists, or other gatherers for their recipes to create agents for you (depending on what properties you want to give to the ingots).
I think it is kind of over the top that agents are all quality based. Maybe this is done on purpose just to prevent players trying to solo the whole chain. If that is the case, that is for the wrong reason imo.
But maybe many changes will still come, I don't know.
Originally posted by CrowingOne Gatherers make bank, especially when their skills start showing reward in the form of high quality mats. The other, offhand, bit I'd mention is that in many cases you'll see crafters with cross-knowledge of other crafting disciplines outside of their primary specialty. There's always a push and pull. Perhaps some crafters will find a secondary knowledge-base very helpful while others may not. In any case, the materials are less vertical than they may seem with some (particularly in Robotics, for example) being easy mob loot drops or similar. At the end of the day carfting things is the easy part. Getting the quality is another.
If it comes as loot from humanoids, you have no control over the quality, so for top quality endresult the loot is useless. (I think I only used gathering skills so far to get robot parts). The other way is harvesting from droids with scavenge skill. The quality is then dependant on the same things as with harvesting meat/hides etc from animals. So this is still another tradeskill.
I really expect problems in this game with the amount of different specialisations needed. And there are way too many different resource types. There is a lot of overlap because of the alternatives for a lot of agents. I would not be surprised if at some point they cut that down to a more managable amount.
A quality Medbot from Robotics needs at least Mining, Chemistry, Metalworking, Fishing!! and Logging. All quality based. The listed gathering skills not only needed for the gathering, but also for several of their other recipes to create agents(which is sometimes confusing, because you expect them to be respectively in Chemistry, Culinary, Pharmaceuticals etc). Oh and they are each dependant on others too for the agents to create the subcomponents.
Even usually simple things like with Mining. If you want to produce high quality ingots you are also dependant on chemists, or other gatherers for their recipes to create agents for you (depending on what properties you want to give to the ingots).
I think it is kind of over the top that agents are all quality based. Maybe this is done on purpose just to prevent players trying to solo the whole chain. If that is the case, that is for the wrong reason imo.
But maybe many changes will still come, I don't know.
I agree with Forumguy, I am afraid they went the Wildstar route and made crafting like 40 man raids. Its only going to appeal to those who are gluttons for punishment. And we all know how that turned out.
I only scratched the surface of it, but let me tell you, I was crafting and trying to find so many items that half the time I couldn't remember what it was I was trying to make or craft them for!!
In order to craft in this game you better take lots of notes and write everything down or you will find yourself constantly clicking back and forth between the menus trying to figure out what the hell it was you thought you were making.
Complex yes. Fun no.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by Dullahan Glad to hear this is the way crafting is. Everyone should have a purpose, and if I'm able to get crafting components without considering buying them from someone else, player driven economy has failed..
I was thinking that. And then I tried it. The whole concept sounds awesome on paper. But then you have to see for yourself. It is not about needing other traders. It is about needing a silly amount of different types of specialised traders. Way too many to be practical.
This has a risk built in, for when a server's population can't support all those different specialisations. The alternative is then to do it yourself. This is possible, but takes a silly amount of time. Not to mention inventory space for the ridiculous amount of different resources. I have never seen this in other MMO's and I crafted in all MMO's that had the reputation of having interesting crafting.
On the other hand, it is still in alpha stage. It is possible that atm for example the skill progression is severely nerfed. And the recipe window, inventory also needs sorting options. Atm its quite annoying to sift through everything.
Don't you think that might be due to a lack of players being in the alpha? I'm thinking that issue will resolve itself once there are people working all trades and skilling up by selling sub-components. Thats how it usually works at least.
Given the differences in a crafting system like this or a system like like WoW's and I'll take this hands down. I was hooked on FFXIV:ARR's crafting system at launch. I loved how crafting was treated as a full fledged class. It took as much to level it as it did to level a combat class.
It fell apart for me after they patched the game with improved raid drop gear and nothing for crafted gear. I felt that was a kick in the teeth for all the grinding I did to separate myself from others who did not craft. There were few on my server who were ahead of me in crafting. But I was woefully lagging behind in my main combat class. But then when crafted gear was no longer competitive, the whole path I chose fell apart. and I was left behind struggling to get caught up with dropped instance gear. Ultimately I was disappointed enough and un-subbed.
But that's the thing. High level crafters need to have the ability to distinguish themselves. There aren't any games like that. And this crafting system will be the 1st in a long time to do that. Yeah, crafting will be a bitch. And that's exactly why it's good.
Crafted gear in ffxiv has been best in slot for about five months now. Top raiding guilds outfit themselves in crafted gear in order to beat the most current raids. Crafting the best gear is a major time investment though. So you can't just log on after not playing for a while and start making the best gear. Which is how it should be.
Originally posted by Dullahan Glad to hear this is the way crafting is. Everyone should have a purpose, and if I'm able to get crafting components without considering buying them from someone else, player driven economy has failed..
I was thinking that. And then I tried it. The whole concept sounds awesome on paper. But then you have to see for yourself. It is not about needing other traders. It is about needing a silly amount of different types of specialised traders. Way too many to be practical.
This has a risk built in, for when a server's population can't support all those different specialisations. The alternative is then to do it yourself. This is possible, but takes a silly amount of time. Not to mention inventory space for the ridiculous amount of different resources. I have never seen this in other MMO's and I crafted in all MMO's that had the reputation of having interesting crafting.
On the other hand, it is still in alpha stage. It is possible that atm for example the skill progression is severely nerfed. And the recipe window, inventory also needs sorting options. Atm its quite annoying to sift through everything.
Don't you think that might be due to a lack of players being in the alpha? I'm thinking that issue will resolve itself once there are people working all trades and skilling up by selling sub-components. Thats how it usually works at least.
Its kind of like this.
You want to make a Gadget.
To make the Gadget, you need five Doohickeys.
Each doohickey requires 3 to 5 Widgets.
Each Widget requires 2 to 5 materials. And multiple materials can be used to imbue different properties. With 50 different grades of mats.
And that is just to make something fairly low level.
So do you want to be the guy who supplies the Doohickeys or the guy who supplies the Widgets? Frankly I didn't care either way because really, its all the same in the end isn't it, whether you make Doohickeys or anything else. You aren't crafting anything, you are just making pieces. Thats great for an economy I guess, but I just couldn't picture my self as a Doohickey maker, in a game. I am probably not the sandbox type of player at this point in my career.
Pretty sure there is a niche out there that might find it enjoyable, hopefully.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
In order to craft in this game you better take lots of notes and write everything down or you will find yourself constantly clicking back and forth between the menus trying to figure out what the hell it was you thought you were making.
In addition to the in-game database I'd recommend using sites like: [url]http://aena.at/craftmap/[/url] for your crafting needs. It makes things a lot easier.
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Except for those that take mmorpg as virtual worlds, for those people it is not simply a game.
Doing a bit more gathering and crafting Im wondering if others encountered the same problem. If that has been mentioned before in the thread, sry if I overlooked it.
Assuming you gather 500 units(or more) of different crafting materials that all end up in 1 recipe you then have to click "All" and "Finish" 500 times because the "Batch" button either isnt available or because if you do "Batch" it doesnt give you a skill point. I found myself starting up a 3rd party macro tool which needs 2min to setup the scenario ( more or less ban worthy depending on your(devs) point of view so I don't recommend using any) just to finish the crafts because the whole *click All* move mouse right *click finish* (skip to end of paragraph) move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish* move mouse left *click All* move mouse right *click Finish*....was boring to say the least. I really like the depth of crafting meaning that an item takes 10-20 steps to create, but the repetition of the same movement over and over again makes the whole experience "meh" at best.
@devs Maybe you can either add the "Batch" option to all recipes and let it give skill points? Or if that is out of the question then maybe have something like "craft as long as you got material" kind of button? The way it currently works will lead to macros, crafting bots or whatever you want to call them. Believe me, I (co-)wrote many of those and your game would be perfect to make a $ or two with them. I hope you don't get me wrong, I like your game, followed it since the first announcment and want it to be successfull but you must admit you got some flaws here and there. Which isn't that bad I guess because after all, it is alpha.
edit: removed name of 3rd party tool
I have to agree with GeezerGamer on this one. As long as I'm working towards a goal then everything along the way doesn't have to be fun. Anything fun that I do over and over will eventually not be fun anymore anyway. It's the goal that keeps me interested and playing. If I just want constant "fun" then I'll play a couple FPS matches or an arcade game.
If you click all you don't have to click finish ... obviously the batch process is still bugged and it's an alpha. Put you concerns on the game official boards maybe ?
EQ2 tried this same thing at launch. In order to craft armor you needed components made from other crafters. They ended up abandoning it in short order for the simpler crafting system they have today because it proved unworkable. You can't depend on other crafters to always have what you want for sale for a price that is profitable.
I know you dont have to click "finish" but if you don't then it takes longer. There is a 2-3 sec delay after you hit "All" but if you click "Finish" that goes away and you can "spam" the crafting process. And sure, I will post it on the official board but so far I havent created an account there yet because I thought I will do so once I had a full review ready which might take a few more days or a week. And because the devs read here I hope they might notice it if not they will read it later. Just another way to ask if anyone is seeing it the way I do really. If there might be a work around which I havent found yet then I could include it in the review, report ... whatever...
edit: and yes it obviously is an alpha, no doubt about that and no offence to the final product. It is alpha so please don't use it against them once it is released. An alpha has problems, many of them but that is the purpose of the stage.
EQ 2 had a lot of reasons for it's poor launch, but crafting wasn't one of them imo. In the EQ 2 vs. WoW discussions crafting was generally one of their advantages. Don't get me wrong, I like EQ 2, but the problem with the game is that it rushed to try to beat WoW to launch, and players knew the issues heading into launch. The class system completely changed in the final month of development because players hated the old system. The itemization was almost completely generated and bland. There weren't enough quests, half of the content was still group content, etc.
WoW delayed after EQ 2 launched, kept polishing and the rest is history. EQ 2 then slowly began changing features to make it more like WoW, and during that process crafting was one of the casualties. That having been said, the quality of crafted items in EQ 2 was never similar to how they are in Repop. It was interdependent but it was still a loot driven game.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Sounds like you want trivialized crafting. It sounds like they are going in the right direction For What THEY WANT. It might not be everyone's cup of tea but then again you can simply pass on this game.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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I always craft in games that have useful crafting, I loved trader skills in SWG. And have crafted in other games (Vanguard, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth), but nowhere it is as complex as in The Repopulation.
Crafting in the Repopulation is way more complex then for example crafting in SWG ever was. The cool part is that all crafted items are needed. And even tradeskills like mining , fishing, foraging are cool because of the chemical substances you can craft for other tradeskills. This website http://aena.at/craftmap/skill11.html makes it doable because someone took the effort to link all recipes and resources (this must have been a daunting task).
But if you want to craft quality complex items like for example top quality robots, then it becomes just an annoying logistal and time consuming nightmare.
If you want to stick to one upper layer tradeskill (lets say robotics) you will need subcomponents from a large number of other tradeskills. So many, that I just didnt fint it practical anymore to obtain them through trade. It just takes too much time to find all the right quality components on an auction house (if they are even available!). You can set up workorders, but that becomes just a waiting game then. The way it is set up it asks for so many specialisations that I doubt that this MMO will have enough players to support that. Then there is the accumulated costs for the end product. There is no reasonable way anymore to set a price. There are no factories, everything has a quality rating and is handmade.
Then there is the choice to craft all subcomponents yourself, with all subcomponents in top quality, then prepare yourself for a crazy grind and on top of that a logistical nightmare(I also doubt that you will have enough inventory/bank space).
If you also want to gather everything yourself and craft everything yourself in top quality. Say goodbye to friends and family and lock yourself up for the next year or so.
Imo, they went way overboard with the amount of subcomponents for even the simplest of items. It looks cool and convincing though on paper, but in the game it just became annoyingly unpractical for me. So incredibly timeconsuming and you will know that the buyers will never back that up with enough money.
Ofc there will be ppl who will go all out on this and will craft a complete chain in top quality and will become very rich doing that
But that just can't be healthy imo.
I was thinking that. And then I tried it. The whole concept sounds awesome on paper. But then you have to see for yourself. It is not about needing other traders. It is about needing a silly amount of different types of specialised traders. Way too many to be practical.
This has a risk built in, for when a server's population can't support all those different specialisations. The alternative is then to do it yourself. This is possible, but takes a silly amount of time. Not to mention inventory space for the ridiculous amount of different resources. I have never seen this in other MMO's and I crafted in all MMO's that had the reputation of having interesting crafting.
On the other hand, it is still in alpha stage. It is possible that atm for example the skill progression is severely nerfed. And the recipe window, inventory also needs sorting options. Atm its quite annoying to sift through everything.
I would say that example is definitely overboard to not even making sense.
We have all had to at one point make a makeshift band aid and that is NOT how it is done.
A simple bandage would need cloth and an adhesive of some kind,nothing more.That sounds more like an emergency room procedure with open heart surgery lol.Or it sounds like a factory procedure,people would not readily have a factory in their back pocket lol.
It really gives you an idea of the designers mind set,it sounds like they were aiming for grind just for the sake of grind ,without making sense.
I am always running into things in various games that just leave me shaking my head,wtf were they thinking and seems in every game.I guess this is just a realization that no game could ever be 100% satisfactory because you have all sorts of minds working on each individual system,it's not like one guy and his vision alone,so you know exactly what your going to get,nope game direction goes in many directions.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You aren't expected to try to craft all the components on your own. Each recipe has its own mastery levels, allowing players to specialize in components and act as suppliers in a chain. There is a work order system so you can set a price and what you want of what quality and other players can fulfill your needs, similar to a reverse auction (auctions are also supported). And that's how the crafting system is intended to be used. Because each recipe has its own mastery levels players can specialize in a simple component they create at 0 skill and produce that in bulk, then resell to other players to be a supplier in the chain and show profits right away. Looking at the components chain why would people produce cloth? Well it's used in 8 different recipes for things ranging from the bandage, to thread, filters, and clothing/armor.
Where players run into problems is that they have the mentality that they should be doing things all on their own. They take that simple two ingredient recipe for Bandages and they try to create both components on their own, which are made of other components, etc. Suddenly they have a complex recipe which sounds overwhelming. But its because its being approached in the wrong way.
Now using a real life analogy like you said, it would require cloth and an adhesive (in Repop's case a sterlization agent). That's what it requires. Of course somebody created that cloth and the adhesive. You'd buy them at a store. And the same goes with Repop crafting. The complaints some players lodge about having to create the components has to do with them trying to create their own cloth and their own agents.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
But JC... We're talking about a bandage here... not the creation of a modern (or post apocalyptic) combustion engine.
I have piles of light armor that I don't use just sitting around that I find from drops. Couldn't there be some mechanic to simply salvage for components. Even if the very of salvaging itself does not grant any form of skill gain. But to tear up a piece of armor into makeshift cloth strips doesn't require any matter of skill. just a semi sharp tool to start a cut.
As far as sterilization agents, as you mentioned they are purchaseable. I would think some form of antiseptic would be harder to come by than simple cloth. Although usually in field triage a bottle of vodka could make due.
The point of the "bandage analogy" is that the nature of the crafting system is overly cumbersome for simple items. I don't think we're going to be making bandages out of exotic materials such as carbon fiber or kevlar.
The other concern is that which is shared by others which is with such a diverse crafting system in place will the population be interested enough in the many facets of crafting to really have multiple specialists in the necessary component sub categories. If the repop maintains an active player base of 100k - 200k this shouldn't be an issue. I just fear that the intensely intricate nature of the game will drive that number far lower and in turn crate vast holes in the crafting needs.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
We've discussed salvaging in the past. No real decision has been made on it. But it has been one of those topics that gets brought up from time to time. It could be something we see happen. It's not in the immediate plans though. First we'll focus on refining the crafting system so it is a bit easier for players to pick up and understand. There's several things underway currently moving towards that.
I wouldn't worry too much about populations post-launch since the game will be F2P. Players will try it. It will be for some and won't be for others. But having enough players to support it shouldn't be a problem, it won't take that many active. It will be tougher in testing until we get to the open beta stage as many players don't like the idea of paying for testing, and many others won't play very often due to their players being wiped when the game releases. I think the tactic most people are using now is to establish supply chains with other players and working directly with them for the most part as they can swap components or services and get a fair deal. Often the auction system is selling items as extortionate prices. The players having the most success crafting now are typically nations which have good chains developed within their nation.
We will continue to refine crafting (as with all areas of the game). But the interdepency is something that we plan on keeping. It won't be for everyone, and we are prepared for that. But we like what it can do for the economy as a whole once everything gets into balance.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
I understand the chain of specialists doing trade with each other , which then ultimately leads to top quality complex end products. When I played SWG this worked awesome. You slowly got to know the other traders you did business with and bartered that way for better deals.
In the case of TR I have some doubts though and some questions about this:
With so many recipes and tradekills to raise, it just seems as if there are too many different specialists needed. And some of the tradeskills are hardly interesting to specialise in, like Chemistry and Metalworks for example (except maybe for the real diehards), because they have no end products to sell to noncrafters and no related gathering activity. Can a server support that many dedicated crafters, so that a robotics or fittings crafter can actually find top quality subcomponents?
Then there are the amount of different resource types and subcomponents. When trying to craft a droid, you will find several layers of subcomponents, from resource to the top, the end product. If like you said, you are supposed to trade for those subcomponents, with layer on top of layer of profit margins, will those droids still be affordable for players? Or will they just be cheaper and simply not reflect the amount of work put in them? With all those specialisations, I can't see gatherers making money for example.
So in short, I see too many interdependant tradeskills that need specialisation and too many layers of subcomponents. Wondering if a server's population can support the specialists and whether there is any money to be made for gatherers (every layer wants to see their time rewarded after all).
If it comes as loot from humanoids, you have no control over the quality, so for top quality endresult the loot is useless. (I think I only used gathering skills so far to get robot parts). The other way is harvesting from droids with scavenge skill. The quality is then dependant on the same things as with harvesting meat/hides etc from animals. So this is still another tradeskill.
I really expect problems in this game with the amount of different specialisations needed. And there are way too many different resource types. There is a lot of overlap because of the alternatives for a lot of agents. I would not be surprised if at some point they cut that down to a more managable amount.
A quality Medbot from Robotics needs at least Mining, Chemistry, Metalworking, Fishing!! and Logging. All quality based. The listed gathering skills not only needed for the gathering, but also for several of their other recipes to create agents(which is sometimes confusing, because you expect them to be respectively in Chemistry, Culinary, Pharmaceuticals etc). Oh and they are each dependant on others too for the agents to create the subcomponents.
Even usually simple things like with Mining. If you want to produce high quality ingots you are also dependant on chemists, or other gatherers for their recipes to create agents for you (depending on what properties you want to give to the ingots).
I think it is kind of over the top that agents are all quality based. Maybe this is done on purpose just to prevent players trying to solo the whole chain. If that is the case, that is for the wrong reason imo.
But maybe many changes will still come, I don't know.
I agree with Forumguy, I am afraid they went the Wildstar route and made crafting like 40 man raids. Its only going to appeal to those who are gluttons for punishment. And we all know how that turned out.
I only scratched the surface of it, but let me tell you, I was crafting and trying to find so many items that half the time I couldn't remember what it was I was trying to make or craft them for!!
In order to craft in this game you better take lots of notes and write everything down or you will find yourself constantly clicking back and forth between the menus trying to figure out what the hell it was you thought you were making.
Complex yes. Fun no.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Don't you think that might be due to a lack of players being in the alpha? I'm thinking that issue will resolve itself once there are people working all trades and skilling up by selling sub-components. Thats how it usually works at least.
Crafting the best gear is a major time investment though. So you can't just log on after not playing for a while and start making the best gear. Which is how it should be.
Its kind of like this.
You want to make a Gadget.
To make the Gadget, you need five Doohickeys.
Each doohickey requires 3 to 5 Widgets.
Each Widget requires 2 to 5 materials. And multiple materials can be used to imbue different properties. With 50 different grades of mats.
And that is just to make something fairly low level.
So do you want to be the guy who supplies the Doohickeys or the guy who supplies the Widgets? Frankly I didn't care either way because really, its all the same in the end isn't it, whether you make Doohickeys or anything else. You aren't crafting anything, you are just making pieces. Thats great for an economy I guess, but I just couldn't picture my self as a Doohickey maker, in a game. I am probably not the sandbox type of player at this point in my career.
Pretty sure there is a niche out there that might find it enjoyable, hopefully.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.