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First round of criticism has begun to trickle in and...
Bigdaddyx
Member UncommonPosts: 2,039
we are already seeing its 'just an alpha' excuses. Which will then evolve to 'it is just a beta' and then 'it just released' to 'its only been few months' and so on. Anyone seeing the same pattern here?
I bought the game because of its close resemblance to SWG but the state it is in right now i don't see it releasing any time soon. Unless ofcourse they bring in a huge team to make things work out sooner. 2015 seems impossible right now.
But hey that is indie kickstarter MMOS for you.
Comments
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
They stated prior to purchase that this is an alpha. I think it's perfectly valid to say "hey, it's only an Alpha". If we use the term Alpha and Beta as its meant to be, then they haven't stated anything untrue right now.
The issue is a lot of companies use beta now as a marketing gimmick, not to actually bug test their product. The game needs a lot of work, but I'm not mad, because it's only an Alpha
My problem with this is: What's in red below.
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Early Access Game
Get instant access and start playing; get involved
with this game as it develops.
Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further.
If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the
game progresses further in development.
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They are in no way secretive about the current state of the game. JC has been here telling people this for months, as well as stating rather clearly they move pretty slowly, one goal "was" to get it to this state, to use the funds to expand the team. I don't know if that's still the plan or not, but again they've been pretty open about this.
The important thing is, what is in red above. This game will be F2P. There's no reason to pay for it unless you want to fund it's development. As well as deal with the issues they have. It's in an alpha state of development, whether you like it or not. That's early access for you...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think they are banking on the fact the game is now in alpha to bring in enough new revenue to boost up staff and speed up the delivery.
Time will tell if this gamble will pay off in the near future.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You saved me the trouble of looking this up. The game site say's it, the developers say it, they encourage you to not buy it if you don't want to deal with issues. See the problem here? More important, see the difference here? They are not trying to hide anything, they know there are issues and they tell you this, and they also tell you, wait until this game releases and it will be free to play. See the difference between this game and most others? I bet you don't, I will explain further.
The Dev's aren't concerned with making a quick buck off of you (or anyone), they are concerned with making the game they want to make and they are going to take all the time they need to make it. Big difference from past games that have used Alpha/BETA as marketing gimmicks or a 'pay to test' scheme.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
The way i see it we have a very pretty little catch 22 here, one that i am sure the devs are baking on (literally)
Yes you can skip the game now and get it for free later. But if to many people does that there is a risk that fundiing dries up and then there will be no game at all. So people donate money now in the hopes of having a complete game at some point.
Me... i call it a cheap and uninspired SWG ripoff caked in nostalgia... So i guess you can figure out if i bought it or not.
This have been a good conversation
Plenty of Kickstarters/ indies go belly up, kinda par for the course in an industry ruled by large corporations. Few I'm sure feel some uncontrollable need to fork over money due to that, they either want to pitch in or don't.
I hate to ask though what is the point you're trying to make? That it's somehow bad to try and bring a game to the public because it might fail? You make it sound like they're sending out the catch 22 ( a brain ray of doom, that take away your ability to see reason, making you empty your wallet.)
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No i just pointed out that there is no right way out of this, you simply have to either have faith or write off the money as lost. There is no real way to "win" this scenario. Especially considering the fate of many crowd funded products.
Any way the original catch 22 (read the book by the way.. it is.. well.. interesting.) sort of boils down to this... In order to get a air force discharge you have to be insane, but if you apply to be discharged it is assumed you do it out of fear, fear of dying being a sound reaction to war indicates that you are not insane. Thus the loop starts over.
The book revolves around a bombing crew in WW2.
This have been a good conversation
same as other early access ,those companies should stop selling it as early access it is pay to test
early access mean finished game with exclusive early start to play game
Thanks, will check it out sounds good.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In the Alpha I expect a game to be rather unfinnished. That is no excuse whatsoever on launch day and while fans tend to say that teven then games that releases in bad shape tend to do badly.
Just check the gamelist, there are plenty of games that actually is pretty good but never reached it potential since the launch sucked. Tabula Rasa is a good example. Vanguard could really have been something as well if it released in good shape.
Don't write the game of yet, but if they just fix some small bugs and release it they will regret it soon.
Early access is essentially this new idea of community funded..open development, that in which they talked up all through 2013-14. Anyway, I don't think it needs to go away, I just think people who expect to see finished as well as polished projects, should steer away from them. It's plastered everywhere on these games sites/pages (most likely for legal reasons), you're buying unfinished products, in many cases you're playing conceptual staged games. They're barely into alpha... Kenshi is just one example among many.
Some of these posts on the state of these games, is akin to ordering an entree, then going into the kitchen to eat it raw.. Then giving a review on it. It's half baked. OF course it's going to taste half baked.
Demanding something others support that you don't to "go away" is pretty much pointless (it's being supported). Just don't support it, there is no reason to seek regulation on opt in processes like this.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ahhhhh, ignorance is bliss. If you had ever actually participated in an "Alpha", not like early access, but a real alpha then you'd have some appreciation for how current "Alpha" games actually play, like actually being playable. Like, at all. I remember playing alphas for games with things like big boxes labelled "Tree", transparent textures on the ground, falling through worlds, getting stuck inside mountains, getting stuck under mountains, walking through walls, and so many other great gameplay elements that are missing from today's Alphas. So you can call it an excuse, or you can consider yourself lucky. I guess it's all a matter of perspective.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Nothing to do with ignorance but more to do with being realistic. The real question is how much of leap can a game make from alpha to beta and then to release. Where all the excuses of 'its an alpha'.. 'but its just a beta'..'game just released'..'its been a year give it more time' become completely redundant.
And i have played plenty of alpha and beta"s to know that games don't change much. at release.
When have they stated they intend to launch the game? If it is a few years out, then no one has any right to complain. If it is in 3-6 months, then complaints are valid, as not much can change in that timeframe.
Except what does ALPHA actually mean?
When a animator sits down to make an animation ,does he say "well this is Alpha so i will make an inferior animation?".
You see where i am going with this,these guys are suppose to be professionals,not one single aspect of game designs says ok we are going to make inferior assets,inferior sounds,inferior animations, no they are suppose to be skilled at their trade.
What PHASES of development mean to me,are just that phases,NEVER does it make an excuse to make inferior aspects of the game.It means some aspects are not even done or started yet,it means there will be bugs,it means we still have races and mobs and npc's to make,quests to add,sounds and textures to make.However never does it mean ok Joe Slep lets make some crap sounds and ugly textures because it is only Alpha or Beta or whatever other phase.
I hope i made sense,i am not always good at portraying my thoughts into words but i think i made it clear.
PS ..This in no way relates to what i think of the game personally because i have no idea at all,i am just making a point because i hear the Alpha/Beta phase argument all the time.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This right here IS ignorant. Sorry. I'm not saying it's willful ignorance, but you have absolutely no idea about the software development lifecycle in any industry, let alone the gaming industry. I can say that quite confidently.
If I were to make that same assertion then Landmark may as well have been written off because the optimization of their original alpha releases were ridiculous. You were literally having to play at 5 frames per second many times. Based on that same assertion, Landmark would never have PvP, or combat for that matter, since games don't change that much.
Now, that being said, it's this type of attitude that makes me firmly believe that Early Access is something that won't be around a long time. It really does hinge on the ability of developers to make people understand the development process. This is, generally, done really poorly. SOE is pretty good at it and, actually, The Repop is pretty good at it, too, but I don't think anyone is really killing it yet. I don't think they know what info they should be giving out as of yet. The companies that are good at it are few and far between, though. Right now it's about education and transparency. The greater the education, the more appreciation you have for the transparency that many of these developers have. Otherwise, yeah, I can see why someone might think of it as excuses.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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It really doesn't relate to game development in anyway as you stated it. IF you want to compare it to animation, it's in the story board phase.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There will never be a perfect game. But when a game is still being built, people can project all their hopes and desires onto it imagining that it will be and live up to everything they want. It never will. Not this game. Not any game. Unfortunately this is something each person has to realize for themselves and so we constantly have groups of people living in the state of heightened expectations rather than looking at what they do enjoy and just going with that - which is why the eventually disappointment hits so hard when a game is finally "released".
Dat hype. Always gets you.
Professionals use placeholders all the time. Software development is an iterative process.
I don't agree with your example of landmark because the features you are talking about were planned to be added in later by the devs and were in discussion for a long time.
There is difference between adding pre decided set of features as time progresses and the already established core features.
Simply calling me ignorant twice without trying to understand what i am saying isn't doing you and me any good.
Look at animation and combat for example...i really doubt they are going to change at release. They will be more or less the same. Played way too many MMOS in alpha and beta to know this by now.
The problem with The Repopulation is that it looks like a game that is 1-2 years from release and not a game that is about to hit beta.
Yup, in the case of indie MMO's I completely agree, progress is usually miniscule between alpha and release (and even in the subsequent years). They usually over-promise and under-deliver.
Repop has been in development for a few years now, and most likely will remain there for a few years hence. It is showing solid progress, but it's not going to turn into a AAA-grade release overnight. It most probably will never have butter-smooth animations and state-of-the-art graphics, but it quite likely have some really interesting game play.
Some posters have used Landmark as an example of a game that had significant changes even during the alpha stage. However, Landmark is NOT an indie Kickstarter project. It's backed by one of the larger studios, and does not depend entirely on Early Access sales and/or crowdfunding to pay its bills. Those sales are there to help offset the cost of building it, but they don't dictate either the scope or completion date of the project.
Lol, ok, well saying you've played way too many MMOs in Alpha and Beta isn't exactly helping your cause either. Today, Alpha and Beta is about early access, not testing, so the fact that you've been able to buy your way into 5 or 10 or 1000 betas and alphas while still gaining not appreciation for or understanding of the software development process is actually quite an accomplishment.
I can definitely agree that animations and combat can be difficult and expensive to change, but it depends on the development process (See Scalpless' comment above yours). In an iterative process, there are requirements to complete certain sets of tasks. So just because something is in there doesn't mean it's done. This allows for them to change direction quickly and be more reactive to customer feedback.
I'm not sure I'm understanding your argument about Landmark. You're saying that it's ok to add features according to a schedule, but you can't improve or change them as you go on? This is, possibly, the worst type of software implementation ever. It's like a waterfall method straight out of the 80s, and I'm certain Landmark is not using a waterfall development process. Oh! Landmark also had plenty of their own animation issues as well, so they are certainly not concrete. I really hope that Landmark's combat and PvP aren't set in stone.
Shoot! Assassin's Creed just released animation updates at the end of November because of all the horrible badness in Unity. These things should not be set in stone and if they are, you are in horrible, horrible trouble with your project.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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