It seems ever since 2004/5 game corporations (no longer companies) are looking for the secret formula to success. Every now and then a corp will step in shit and all the others will instantly try and follow suit.
Gaming today is filled with an industry of not creating quality game play but monetizing the hell out of players... whether it is shallow gameplay with "planned" DLC's or some form of cash shop (yes even in single player games)...
Long lost are the days where a few doctors from Canada quit the medical field to follow their passion of RPG games, or a unknown guy from Texas distributing games in zip lock bags who would revolutionize RPG gaming forever. Companies like SSI and microprose, interplay, Sirtech and dare I say it, early EA who created some of the best SP CRPGs to this day back in the 80's and 90's.
You have to look to the indy's however and very unfortunately for every Larian and inXile and even Hairbranined, there are a dozens of fly by night indy cash grabs with shitty tablet ports or whatever.
Bioware (DA:I) has been consumed by a mega corp and while I was sad that this happened as I was sad when Origin systems was consumed back in the day. i look at Bioware as it a more recent thing and you can clearly see when this change took place and these Docs from Canada I am sure are living large on a huge buyout (as I am sure anyone of us would take the same golden parachute given the opportunity) will probably never be involved with games again I am sure at least Dr. Ray is making some fantastic craft beer, at least until Anheuser-Busch comes-a- knockin.
MMOs themselves suffer the flaws of MMO pointlessness, so yeah I totally agree that it is stupid for single player RPGs to copy those things. Single player RPGs should focus on stories like all the best ones did (baldurs gate 2, oblivion, etc). MMO-RPGs should focus on role playing, world, exploration, and generally all kind of mechanics that makes players interact in some way.
The crazy thing is that single player RPG are actually best when they are themeparks with stories, while MMORPGs are best when they offer freedom and the "stories" are made by the players - The exact opposite to Themepark. And yet.. Look at what we are getting labelled as MMO.
And that is why players don't stick with MMOs very long... Use and discard, no incentive to invest, no reason to care, nothing to explore... Hop on the train and look out the vindow when the guide tells you to do so.
Was about to respond with the same thing until I read your post.
Just to reiterate, these sorts of trivial quests have been and will always be horrible. Theres nothing wrong with a quest that requires you to kill something per se, but the generic way its been utilized by developers since WoW is just lazy. I'd go further and explain exactly how these quests are horrible and how they are further propagating a lazy model of mmorpg design, but its been done ad naseum and if you happen to be someone that likes these uninspired quests, theres no sense explaining it to you anyway.
Since WOW? heh, Morrowind had them in 2002.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The problem is that there is apparently no clear way for developers to understand that such content is inherently boring in certain contexts. That they took some of the most odious elements of MMORPGs and used them as filler in an SPRPG just seems dumb. Ideally they would reap the consequences financially for making shovelware, but the MMORPG market seems to reward developers for making shit. Slap a game on a name brand and you're good.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Originally posted by Distopia I disagree, especially with your take on trash being something MMO's brought to the RPG space, TES as one simple example have always been filled with generic, kill, fetch,collect then deliver quests. A majority of the content in them is exactly that.
+20
Heck, you could take it back to Random Encounters in pen and paper d&d.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
This article touches on it, but I think the issues run deeper than just quest design and management (yellow exclamation points, quest counters, arrows, etc.). Before getting to that though, I will say that trash has always been a part of RPGs. What has not is having to dangle quest rewards out there for everything. "I hear there might be some treasure to be found in those ruins. Only be careful, rumors tell of werewolves and worse that inhabit them now," was once good enough to encourage players to show some initiative and investigate them. Today you have to make it a quest objective and give them gold and gear upgrades to do it.
Other things I think have negatively affected single-player RPGs:
Class equality (aka "class balance") -- as in every class should be able to do everything more or less equally well. Once upon a time your class or party composition affected the way one arrived at solutions and even controlled access to certain areas and treasure. Modern players reject this type of choice and consequence, which has systematically been eliminated from MMOs -- not for bad reasons necessarily -- and it has filtered into single-player RPGs. Follow the development of any SPRPG these days and you will find players clamoring for every class has to have AOEs, ways to unlock chests and doors, ways to disarm traps, ways to heal, and so on that all amount to variations on the same generic spells.
Which gets to another significant area where MMOs have hurt single-player RPGs: combat abilities for every class have been turned into variants of magical spells. The old school pen-and-paper abilities and ability "modes" based on net stat bonuses and sacrifices (Power Attack raising damage in exchange for reducing accuracy for example) for classes like warrior and thieves have been supplanted by "melee spells." "Do you want to cast your spells with a sword, bow and arrow, or a magic staff?" is one of the few decisions left. Tactical statistical advantages -- racial advantages, positional advantages, vs. armor type advantages, elemental advantages, etc. -- that used to be a staple of RPGs are downplayed because modern players consider them inconveniences and hence poor design.
Don't agree at all. Many of the RPGs released in the last few years are fantastic and I haven't seen any real issue with the quality of their questlines. I do think MMOs have divided good RPG developers attention. Bioware has pissed away so much wasted development time on SWTOR that could have been spent on significantly better single player RPGs. Funcom is another one that creates amazing story based RPGs, and have been bogged down trying to keep MMOs afloat instead of putting out new games.
I think the games should take hint from Betsheda -
For example in Skyrim the quests could be sometimes on "filler" side. But no quest brings XP whatsoever. You can do them or kill the quest giver and take his money. Thats how you do RPG
Exactly so ^^ devs creating rpg's that are filled with action coop MMO elements to get bigger numbers. They should make 1 or the other and realise mmorpg IS more niche.
Articles in this site doesn't help -> Skyrim V Eso for example.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Couldn't disagree more about Dragon Age Inquisition. I've put in about 62 hours in DAI, did just about every corner of the Hinterlands, and loved every second of that beautiful zone (especially the feel of the dwarven ruins at the south part of the map and my first time encountering the dragon with full surround sound blasting).
I will play this game to the end, which I haven't done in a game since LOTRO when it only went up to Mines of Moria.
So sorry author, you don't speak for all gamers, in fact, probably not the majority which this site and its forum goers most certainly do not represent.
There is every reason for a bad idea in MMOs to appear in solo games and visa versa. The reason why we get so much trash in MMO is the reason why we get so much trash in RPGs...it is easy to design and implement.
I don't agree. The game makes it very clear when you can leave the hinterlands. I am the only one who doesn't bother too much with side quests in RPGs? I think I spent a grand total of 30-40 minutes in the Hinterlands. If people decided to do the boring side quests, it's their choice.
the issue is not about player choice, its about the devs completely replacing good content with bad filler tasks.
I have found a lot of boring side quests in RPGs from the last 10-15 years. It's not a new thing. MAss effect had tons of them, Elder scrolls games are full of pointless mmo style trash quests - morrowind, oblivion and especially skyrim.
The only game that I can think of that had amazing side quests was Baldur's Gate 2. BG1 was full of trash side quests too.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
This article touches on it, but I think the issues run deeper than just quest design and management (yellow exclamation points, quest counters, arrows, etc.). Before getting to that though, I will say that trash has always been a part of RPGs. What has not is having to dangle quest rewards out there for everything. "I hear there might be some treasure to be found in those ruins. Only be careful, rumors tell of werewolves and worse that inhabit them now," was once good enough to encourage players to show some initiative and investigate them. Today you have to make it a quest objective and give them gold and gear upgrades to do it. Other things I think have negatively affected single-player RPGs: Class equality (aka "class balance") -- as in every class should be able to do everything more or less equally well. Once upon a time your class or party composition affected the way one arrived at solutions and even controlled access to certain areas and treasure. Modern players reject this type of choice and consequence, which has systematically been eliminated from MMOs -- not for bad reasons necessarily -- and it has filtered into single-player RPGs. Follow the development of any SPRPG these days and you will find players clamoring for every class has to have AOEs, ways to unlock chests and doors, ways to disarm traps, ways to heal, and so on that all amount to variations on the same generic spells. Which gets to another significant area where MMOs have hurt single-player RPGs: combat abilities for every class have been turned into variants of magical spells. The old school pen-and-paper abilities and ability "modes" based on net stat bonuses and sacrifices (Power Attack raising damage in exchange for reducing accuracy for example) for classes like warrior and thieves have been supplanted by "melee spells." "Do you want to cast your spells with a sword, bow and arrow, or a magic staff?" is one of the few decisions left. Tactical statistical advantages -- racial advantages, positional advantages, vs. armor type advantages, elemental advantages, etc. -- that used to be a staple of RPGs are downplayed because modern players consider them inconveniences and hence poor design.
What excellent points. I'm not sure where or why some of these devolutions happened. It only makes logical sense for some weapons to be more effective against armor types and other weapon types. It really is a basic system that adds depth to combat and a logical one. Two weapons being swung with proficiency should be harder to block with a shield; in the same vein, dual-wielding two smaller weapons would make parrying a heavy claymore sword much more tiring. Heavy mail armor works very well against slashing techniques, but not so much against blunt weapons (metal hitting metal on the body). Nowadays, weapon types means very little beyond a made up difference in attack speed and maybe a few perks invented by the devs.
This type is common sense, intuitive system is simply free depth in combat for developers. Why they're not being included anymore is quite silly to me.
Have to disagree with this article's premise. I see lots of rpg's out there and very few MMO's. I really don't find any of the MMO's out there right now that engaging while there are some great rpgs with far more interesting story lines.
Originally posted by DarkFail On my second play through of DA:I, enjoying it just as much as the first play through.
Tell me it gets better. I'm only about 4 hours in, but I've been supremely disappointed so far. I was looking forward to this game for quite a while. Then it won so many GotY awards, so I simply couldn't wait to play it (as it was coming as an XMas gift). Then I started playing it and I was finding the combat very clunky, character progression painfully slow, and the animations weren't what I was expecting. Were they worse than SWTOR?
Right now, I've just been struggling to even pick it up. Just wanted to know if the experience picks up pace.
I've dumped 70 hours into my first DAI playthrough (I imagine I'm going to play a second time for different dialog options and a different gender character) so I guess those fetch quests haven't gotten to me too much. There's too many other good things about the game (especially the dialog paths) for me to overlook this I guess.
MMOs are more than just boring quests with a social aspect. People like playing them even as mainly single-player games,
DAI takes some of the better aspects found in mmos and other rpgs and puts it together in a really amazing way. The "menial task" type quests are done better than in all mmos I have played and are almost entirely skippable as far as I can see (as is the norm in most single-player rpgs).
What DAI has successfully taken from MMOs is that feeling of immersion and choice- and has done it so well that is almost like the ideal mmo minus the social aspect, and certainly one of the best rpgs I have played.
I spent over 100 hours on my first playthrough and had none of those feelings of tedium I always get in mmos, and I am well into a second playthrough. I really can't agree with the OP's take on it, or on the hinterlands, which is a great area full of rewarding exploration.
Comments
It seems ever since 2004/5 game corporations (no longer companies) are looking for the secret formula to success. Every now and then a corp will step in shit and all the others will instantly try and follow suit.
Gaming today is filled with an industry of not creating quality game play but monetizing the hell out of players... whether it is shallow gameplay with "planned" DLC's or some form of cash shop (yes even in single player games)...
Long lost are the days where a few doctors from Canada quit the medical field to follow their passion of RPG games, or a unknown guy from Texas distributing games in zip lock bags who would revolutionize RPG gaming forever. Companies like SSI and microprose, interplay, Sirtech and dare I say it, early EA who created some of the best SP CRPGs to this day back in the 80's and 90's.
You have to look to the indy's however and very unfortunately for every Larian and inXile and even Hairbranined, there are a dozens of fly by night indy cash grabs with shitty tablet ports or whatever.
Bioware (DA:I) has been consumed by a mega corp and while I was sad that this happened as I was sad when Origin systems was consumed back in the day. i look at Bioware as it a more recent thing and you can clearly see when this change took place and these Docs from Canada I am sure are living large on a huge buyout (as I am sure anyone of us would take the same golden parachute given the opportunity) will probably never be involved with games again I am sure at least Dr. Ray is making some fantastic craft beer, at least until Anheuser-Busch comes-a- knockin.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Since WOW? heh, Morrowind had them in 2002.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The problem is that there is apparently no clear way for developers to understand that such content is inherently boring in certain contexts. That they took some of the most odious elements of MMORPGs and used them as filler in an SPRPG just seems dumb. Ideally they would reap the consequences financially for making shovelware, but the MMORPG market seems to reward developers for making shit. Slap a game on a name brand and you're good.
+20
Heck, you could take it back to Random Encounters in pen and paper d&d.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
This article touches on it, but I think the issues run deeper than just quest design and management (yellow exclamation points, quest counters, arrows, etc.). Before getting to that though, I will say that trash has always been a part of RPGs. What has not is having to dangle quest rewards out there for everything. "I hear there might be some treasure to be found in those ruins. Only be careful, rumors tell of werewolves and worse that inhabit them now," was once good enough to encourage players to show some initiative and investigate them. Today you have to make it a quest objective and give them gold and gear upgrades to do it.
Other things I think have negatively affected single-player RPGs:
Class equality (aka "class balance") -- as in every class should be able to do everything more or less equally well. Once upon a time your class or party composition affected the way one arrived at solutions and even controlled access to certain areas and treasure. Modern players reject this type of choice and consequence, which has systematically been eliminated from MMOs -- not for bad reasons necessarily -- and it has filtered into single-player RPGs. Follow the development of any SPRPG these days and you will find players clamoring for every class has to have AOEs, ways to unlock chests and doors, ways to disarm traps, ways to heal, and so on that all amount to variations on the same generic spells.
Which gets to another significant area where MMOs have hurt single-player RPGs: combat abilities for every class have been turned into variants of magical spells. The old school pen-and-paper abilities and ability "modes" based on net stat bonuses and sacrifices (Power Attack raising damage in exchange for reducing accuracy for example) for classes like warrior and thieves have been supplanted by "melee spells." "Do you want to cast your spells with a sword, bow and arrow, or a magic staff?" is one of the few decisions left. Tactical statistical advantages -- racial advantages, positional advantages, vs. armor type advantages, elemental advantages, etc. -- that used to be a staple of RPGs are downplayed because modern players consider them inconveniences and hence poor design.
I think the games should take hint from Betsheda -
For example in Skyrim the quests could be sometimes on "filler" side. But no quest brings XP whatsoever. You can do them or kill the quest giver and take his money. Thats how you do RPG
Articles in this site doesn't help -> Skyrim V Eso for example.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Couldn't disagree more about Dragon Age Inquisition. I've put in about 62 hours in DAI, did just about every corner of the Hinterlands, and loved every second of that beautiful zone (especially the feel of the dwarven ruins at the south part of the map and my first time encountering the dragon with full surround sound blasting).
I will play this game to the end, which I haven't done in a game since LOTRO when it only went up to Mines of Moria.
So sorry author, you don't speak for all gamers, in fact, probably not the majority which this site and its forum goers most certainly do not represent.
There Is Always Hope!
I have found a lot of boring side quests in RPGs from the last 10-15 years. It's not a new thing. MAss effect had tons of them, Elder scrolls games are full of pointless mmo style trash quests - morrowind, oblivion and especially skyrim.
The only game that I can think of that had amazing side quests was Baldur's Gate 2. BG1 was full of trash side quests too.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
What excellent points. I'm not sure where or why some of these devolutions happened. It only makes logical sense for some weapons to be more effective against armor types and other weapon types. It really is a basic system that adds depth to combat and a logical one. Two weapons being swung with proficiency should be harder to block with a shield; in the same vein, dual-wielding two smaller weapons would make parrying a heavy claymore sword much more tiring. Heavy mail armor works very well against slashing techniques, but not so much against blunt weapons (metal hitting metal on the body). Nowadays, weapon types means very little beyond a made up difference in attack speed and maybe a few perks invented by the devs.This type is common sense, intuitive system is simply free depth in combat for developers. Why they're not being included anymore is quite silly to me.
RPGs are hurting MMOs
Tell me it gets better. I'm only about 4 hours in, but I've been supremely disappointed so far. I was looking forward to this game for quite a while. Then it won so many GotY awards, so I simply couldn't wait to play it (as it was coming as an XMas gift). Then I started playing it and I was finding the combat very clunky, character progression painfully slow, and the animations weren't what I was expecting. Were they worse than SWTOR?
Right now, I've just been struggling to even pick it up. Just wanted to know if the experience picks up pace.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Looking forward to uhh.....
playing: Civ 5, Tony Hawk Pro Skater HD
DA:I did have a lot of mmo style content but it was still a good game at the end of the day..
But in general MMOs are not hurting rpgs at all.. look at Divinity and Wastelands both awesome rpgs..
MMOs are more than just boring quests with a social aspect. People like playing them even as mainly single-player games,
DAI takes some of the better aspects found in mmos and other rpgs and puts it together in a really amazing way. The "menial task" type quests are done better than in all mmos I have played and are almost entirely skippable as far as I can see (as is the norm in most single-player rpgs).
What DAI has successfully taken from MMOs is that feeling of immersion and choice- and has done it so well that is almost like the ideal mmo minus the social aspect, and certainly one of the best rpgs I have played.
I spent over 100 hours on my first playthrough and had none of those feelings of tedium I always get in mmos, and I am well into a second playthrough. I really can't agree with the OP's take on it, or on the hinterlands, which is a great area full of rewarding exploration.