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when converting from P2P to No Sub model, why is B2P always skipped?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
It seem rare for a MMO that was once P2P and converted to a Subless model, to ever try B2P model instead of F2P model.
GW2 should be a major figure in the pro-B2P model, but I still dont see much support for it.
Warhammer Online may be a crappy game, but I wouldnt mind playing it and overlooking it's flaws if it were a one time buy, instead of needing to go just F2P.
At least developers can get box sells with that model as well as the F2P item shops.
I just dont get it. Why is the B2P model being skipped?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
Likely because it's the least profitable for Developers and Publishers?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Guild wars have never converted to b2p that has been payment model of choice from the onset. I imagine b2p provides a disincentive in attracting new players to try the game compared with f2p. Struggling games may not have much time to turn things around before they are shut down.
I prefer the b2p option to the other payment models as it supports casual play without the obligation of a sub, while at the same time provides a barrier to gold sellers and trolls. It also requires that devs and players share the risk and both need to reinvest in the game over time. Where guild wars 2 is failing is arenanet focusing more on developing new items for the store rather than development of new content.
Warhammer was not a crappy game!
Eh, just playing, I know it had faults. You're not going to see a b2p model of it because it's closed.
Secret World went from p2p to b2p. Freemium models, like in EQ2, have a f2p or optional sub model, but in between you can pay a 1 time charge for something in the middle.
I dunno. It's hard to calibrate "what works" because devs probably aren't ever sure if the game is "working" or "failing" or the pay model is underselling or crushing their profits.
There's a reason for this. In the B2P model (which in this case is really F2P with an up front cost, a really good con when you think about it), they already made their money from you when you bought the game, new content really gains them nothing financially.
New cash shop items on the other hand keep the revenue flowing in, which is actually the goal of all titles.
i rather suspect they feel the B2P model was a bit of a failure, or at least an under performer in the GW1 series, hence they've taken a slightly different approach for GW2.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Because B2P+cash shop model in online games is basically F2P model just with box purcharse needed.
Also Defiance did go B2P->F2P.
says who? TSW goes from p2p to b2p.
People who've got the money and will to buy the box have likely already bought it before the conversion. Going from P2P -> B2P wouldn't bring in the huge number of new players that going from P2P -> F2P brings.
Also, F2P model can often include some kind of subscription with access to more content (like SWTOR, Lotro, etc). That's very important when doing conversion from P2P because then you can keep on offering some sub service for your existing subscribers.
Oh, GW2 is f2p now? Maybe you don't know what it means. Par for the course around here, though. I bet you think GW2 is a sandbox, too, because you can roleplay alternative stories into it and craft things and sell them to other people.
I blame reddit.
In the gw1 model they actually had to put together expansions with enough content to get people to pay the box price. In the gw2 model they cut out all that useless content and just add more cash shop items. It's brilliant from a business prospective.
The thing is a mjority of GW2's income is infact cashshop.
GW2 is making 7 million$ per month last quarter. Those are in fact cashshop income no different from other F2P games.
And I have no idea how much the operating cost GW2 cost. Rumors is they have 350 employee. I wouldn't be surprise if they need 1-2 million$ per month in operating cost. Which the game if only rely on box sales, probably wont' be able to keep up.
Because B2P model use to keep the old player around while F2P mean to get new players.
If people don't buy the game , they will never buy it even if you don't add the monthly fee.
If it go F2P , people may try it , love it or not depend on the game.
When a game change the payment model mean they lack of new players who going to pay and the old players ready leave the game after clean it .
If you go B2P , the old player don't go back , no reason to come back to a game you ready clean nor there are community in those singleplayer MMO.
and new player don't come (because of the pay gate).
In the west, the sub is the most popular payment method. This is why when a P2P game with a sub is looking to change, they usually look for another model that is sub based.... and that is F2P. F2P is used to increase the subs over P2P, because it removes the barrier to entry. B2P is the original P2P method from retail sales (before MMO's).
P.S. They could do B2P + Optional Sub, but that would be such a minor change that most people would not see it.
There have been alot of discussions on the difference between "free to play" and "freemium" payment models. I don't know if people are scared to discuss freemium or if they're just not knowledgeable of the distinction, or don't care, but the two are being used interchangeably here.
Free to play examples are Runescape and Maplestory.
Freemium examples are SWtoR, Rift, EQ2.
Carry on.
It is true that games like Runescape, or Club Penguin are the origins of F2P. They did not charge anything upfront, and made money via an optional sub (i.e. you could still play regardless of sub status). The newer F2P conversions (DDO, LOTRO, etc.) had a much richer mix of options. They did not charge anything upfront, nor did they require a sub. However, they offered many options such as Paid Expansions (DLC), Cash Shops, and Optional Subs.
The newer F2P games are just as much F2P as the old. They follow the basis strictures of F2P... that you do not need to pay before you can play. The fact that they offer MORE options is just an indication that they are more developed versions of the model.
You have to remember that F2P came about as a marketing strategy. It was advertised as free, in contrast to games that asked for money upfront, which were paid. This was applied in the MMO gaming market, and was unique to this market. The word freemium is not unique to gaming. Freemium is used in reference to services such as GMail, or even to some VAR services.
You have also to consider what GW2 sells in the itemshop. Most F2P games tend to sell stuff you must have, GW2s stuff is mostly skins, extra character slots and bankslots, things that makes things a bit more convinient or make your character look cooler.
Most F2P games tend to sell stuff that is more useful and have a higher impact on the game. F2P games often sells access to many things (like zones, dungeons and even questchains) and some even limit how much cash you can have and what items you can equip (EQ2 to mention one).
Besides, if you see it like that then Wow also have an store and it charge you monthly besides for the boxes.
No, the reason few games (TSW did it) converts to B2P is another. B2P games can have less important stuff in their shop since they also earn money they get from selling boxes. A P2P game that already is a year or so old have sold most of it's boxes already and many players it get is old subscribers that didn't thought it was worth a full subscription.
Once you hook the players you charge them for stuff you more or less need later in the game and then you get income.
B2P players don't accept that you sell certain things but with F2P close to anything seems to work.
No, I really, truly think because of intentional marketing ploys the terms have become convoluted and now used interchangeably by people who don't know better (their marks) to make the distinction. It's more appealing to a customer to call something "F2P", and the company knows it's not "F2P", but they label it so anyway, when it's actually freemium.
If a game is free to play, the entire core game can be played with no charge and the company makes money only on cosmetics, currency or other stuff to advance faster. You cannot really "play the whole game" in SWtoR, for example, you have limits on everything from the loot you can use to how often you can pvp to raiding unless you pay, and that is freemium. EQ2 does the same thing, limits classes, races, useable crafted items and fabled drops, because it is freemium.
That isn't entirely true. The success of GW2, probably more than anything is they make a great games.
In fact. Many people are willing to pay a good amount of money just to buy fluff or pretty armor in the game. It is not because GW2's cashshop is making less money than other F2P games.
I think more than anything B2P games buys insurance, since the game studio will get a huge amount of money up front. That is why most of the mmorpg start out as subscription games, even though many of them probably want to go f2p eventually.
You seem to have forgotten that in games like Runescape (one of the original defining games for F2P in the west) much of the game is behind a subscription paywall.
Basically F2P is the gaming industry term for freemium (which is used in other industries).
Because B2P is the absolute worst option available for an MMO.
Generally people tend to forget that there is a very high cost associated with a gaming company just to provide server admin and bandwidth and without some sort ongoing stream on income, the money to keep the game running has to come from somewhere else. That somewhere else typically comes at the cost of game improvements and new content. so the shelf live of a B2P game is usually a few years at best.
Now I know people will point to GW and GW2 but in those cases your talking a NCSoft which has a huge amount of resources plus they were working with an existing successful IP where they pretty much knew they would sell enough boxes to make a provide and if they didn't they could write off the losses and move on to other things. Most game developers, aside from many Blizzard and Sony, don't have the resources to do this sort of thing. Also lets be honest here, most people I know, including myself, bailed from GW2 within a year which again points to that short shelf life I was mentioning. Basically NCSoft just doesn't have to spend alot of money on GW2 because the initial excitement is over and now they just have to do some basic maintenance to keep it going.
B2P is skipped because it's probably the most challenging business model for developers.
You need to create great game in order to generate box sales revenue and you need to keep up the pace and quality of updates so that people keep playing the game and buy your DLC-s or cash shop items.
P2P might actually be even more challenging, but the challenge is usually compensated with big IP & marketing behind the game, where players will usually overlook the flaws due to their love for IP.