Still to this day my favorite pvp was from diablo 2 LOD. It was 99% of the time someone would create a game with the name DUEL in the name, everyone would turn hostile and pvp in Act 1 Rouge encampment. There were no rules, all you droped was gold which was easy to get back and mostly useless, people just dueled because it was fun and created characters just for dueling. You ran into dicks once and a while but you also ran into great people and most of the time when there was a stupid player people would team up and kill him till he left. It might be nostalgia but this was still the most fun pvp i've ever played, it wasn't ever balanced, people would just start theory crafting builds to counter other builds.
Originally posted by Timassin Still to this day my favorite pvp was from diablo 2 LOD. It was 99% of the time someone would create a game with the name DUEL in the name, everyone would turn hostile and pvp in Act 1 Rouge encampment. There were no rules, all you droped was gold which was easy to get back and mostly useless, people just dueled because it was fun and created characters just for dueling. You ran into dicks once and a while but you also ran into great people and most of the time when there was a stupid player people would team up and kill him till he left. It might be nostalgia but this was still the most fun pvp i've ever played, it wasn't ever balanced, people would just start theory crafting builds to counter other builds.
This so much. I played Diablo 2 for years because of the PvP. The only reason why I didn't like D3 was because there was no PvP. Everyone spent countless hours PvPing in Diablo 2 and you got 0 rewards for it. People grinded items simply to get an advantage on PvP. There were also tons of interesting builds that you could do (WW assassin??!!)
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Premise is completely wrong. Sorry. Not even an opinion its just a fact.
Design cannot and never will work out in a high quality way when done like this. Even if we completely disregard the artistic/social aspects. Just plain pure technical baseline considerations radically change when PvP gets throw in. Things like player location being kept server side vs client side have to be established as early as possible.
This is one of the biggest problems of working as a dev in any area (gaming or otherwise). All the non-devs think you can just tack shit on. The more you do it the worse your product. Not that its impossible but it invariably winds up with poorly made and hard to maintain crap.
Premise is completely wrong. Sorry. Not even an opinion its just a fact.
Design cannot and never will work out in a high quality way when done like this. Even if we completely disregard the artistic/social aspects. Just plain pure technical baseline considerations radically change when PvP gets throw in. Things like player location being kept server side vs client side have to be established as early as possible.
This is one of the biggest problems of working as a dev in any area (gaming or otherwise). All the non-devs think you can just tack shit on. The more you do it the worse your product. Not that its impossible but it invariably winds up with poorly made and hard to maintain crap.
Being that it did work in the two of the biggest, longest running MMOs of all time, I beg to differ.
To this day I've never even come close to enjoying the PvP in a "pvp-mmo" half as much as I enjoyed Everquest PvP in the early years. The fact that there was so much vertical progression, and everything was so highly contested, it created better, more organic conflicts and PvP than any game since. The combat was great, very few changes needed to be made beyond nerfing a couple of obvious spells (charm/fear) and modifying resists.
In before someone who doesn't understand roles in an MMO talk about it being imbalanced.
Game should be a balance of both styles developed in tandem, not one thrown in as an afterthought . EvE is a good example of a nice mix of both that creates a world that one feels like one is living in a vibrant world, not just an online version of a boring single player linear console game.. A good mmo virtual world will be like the real world, where you can pvp in real life but there's consequences, and the people in that world have to police the world themselves, like in the real world
I think Lineage 2 did a great job integrating the two. There were mechanics build into the game that allowed pve players to escape a pvp fight if they wanted to by porting if they had the scroll. And getting a red name kept pk stuff down. SWG had flagging which worked well enough.
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When I think about pve vs pvp mmorpgs the big difference imo is world design. Make a pvp world that adds value to the pvp experience. Let the PVE world be a different design/layout that adds value to the pve experience. Trying to be both is ok, but my approach is better.
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it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
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John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
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Originally posted by waynejr2 When I think about pve vs pvp mmorpgs the big difference imo is world design. Make a pvp world that adds value to the pvp experience. Let the PVE world be a different design/layout that adds value to the pve experience. Trying to be both is ok, but my approach is better.
What exactly must differ in a PvP world and a PvE world? You mean things like the terrain itself being more conducive to tactical combat?
I still contend that the best PvP worlds were ones with vibrant PvE. Every game thats been PvP first and foremost has failed to create an interesting world or game.
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This so much. I played Diablo 2 for years because of the PvP. The only reason why I didn't like D3 was because there was no PvP. Everyone spent countless hours PvPing in Diablo 2 and you got 0 rewards for it. People grinded items simply to get an advantage on PvP. There were also tons of interesting builds that you could do (WW assassin??!!)
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Premise is completely wrong. Sorry. Not even an opinion its just a fact.
Design cannot and never will work out in a high quality way when done like this. Even if we completely disregard the artistic/social aspects. Just plain pure technical baseline considerations radically change when PvP gets throw in. Things like player location being kept server side vs client side have to be established as early as possible.
This is one of the biggest problems of working as a dev in any area (gaming or otherwise). All the non-devs think you can just tack shit on. The more you do it the worse your product. Not that its impossible but it invariably winds up with poorly made and hard to maintain crap.
Being that it did work in the two of the biggest, longest running MMOs of all time, I beg to differ.
To this day I've never even come close to enjoying the PvP in a "pvp-mmo" half as much as I enjoyed Everquest PvP in the early years. The fact that there was so much vertical progression, and everything was so highly contested, it created better, more organic conflicts and PvP than any game since. The combat was great, very few changes needed to be made beyond nerfing a couple of obvious spells (charm/fear) and modifying resists.
In before someone who doesn't understand roles in an MMO talk about it being imbalanced.
I think Lineage 2 did a great job integrating the two. There were mechanics build into the game that allowed pve players to escape a pvp fight if they wanted to by porting if they had the scroll. And getting a red name kept pk stuff down. SWG had flagging which worked well enough.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
What exactly must differ in a PvP world and a PvE world? You mean things like the terrain itself being more conducive to tactical combat?
I still contend that the best PvP worlds were ones with vibrant PvE. Every game thats been PvP first and foremost has failed to create an interesting world or game.