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Paul Sage: "I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us".
Iselin
Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
So many Q&As some of the juicy bits are getting lost.
Here is that particular Q&A from Reddit earlier today:
Q. It was announced that DLC will be scalable to all levels to be accessible upon purchase, yet character progression is more meaningful when it unlocks new places to go and new things to do. At the same time, good end-game content requires more than just a difficulty slider (such as clever mechanics). Will there still be new zones that require level 50 or completion of certain quest lines? I am wondering, for example, what challenges Cadwell's Silver and Gold were preparing us for in in-character/rp/lore terms.
ZOS_Sage: Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us.
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Q. The DLC that is playable as soon as you purchase it: Do you scale to it or does it scale to you? How will this affect play with friends who buy the DLC together but are at differing points/levels of the game?
ZOS_Sage :The player will scale to the content. Our hope is it will make playing with your friends even easier.
_______________________________________
A couple of follow up questions that comes to mind but weren't asked are:
"Does that mean you plan to also remove the level-gating from current content?" and,
"Are you saying that you have plans to remove all levels?"
Interesting stuff.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
Good find. Content scaling to player level is one of the things ESO does not do as well as the offline ES games. I know that instances scale, ofc, but it would be nice to have more. This could bring ESO back up there.
That said, I wonder if the dlc will scale because it is instanced? The other things ZOS has said led me to believe DLC would be zones. They could certainly make your level scale to the zone, but that feels... odd.
I think that's exactly what they mean. It's like the GW2 system and then some since in GW2 you can only scale down to a zone level below you but not up.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
The whole thought of this leaves me feeling conflicted.
On one hand, scaling content is great. If ESO could eventually scale all their content, it would have improved one of the few areas it was lacking compared to the offline games. It would be really awesome to never worry about completing quests in one area before venturing off to another on a whim.
On the other hand, if all zones were scaled, then what would the point of a level be? Just a little more customization? If that is the case why would there be different levels at all?
Maybe only having the DLC scale would actually be good? It would be a bit off-putting to have that kind of inconsistency between dlc zones and other zones, but that would make it so levelling up still made sense, but you could have access to plenty of scaled content when you want it.
I am really curious to see where they go with this. Maybe I am thinking about it all too much. I really enjoyed GW2's scaling, especially once I hit 80 and could go anywhere and still enjoy the content. It did a good job making you feel more powerful from levelling up without making you feel unbalanced. It was so well done that I never thought about my own level (after hitting 80) and never bothered to notice if the people I was playing with were downleveled or not. I hope ESO can make their scaling as simple as GW2's felt.
ESO more than most other MMOs would be really easy to transition to a no level system because acquiring skill points and training skill lines are more the focus than levels and with only the exception of racial skills, the skill lines are not level gated.
It would still require a lot of work with itemization but the increases to stamina, health and magicka could easily be linked to skill points or even the CP system instead of levels.
And there is still a lot of ways to gate content to make unlocking it feel like something special - such as needing to meet certain requirements, follow a quest line to the end, talk to a certain person, read a certain book, etc.
I'd be a bold step to be sure but it would go a long way toward quieting the ES fans that constantly complain about ESO being on rails and not as open as the SP games. It would truly be "Tamriel Unlimited" then.
Not to mention it'd be a lot of fun
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
At the end of the day an "increase in level" has basically been "an increase in a bundle of skills". So simply changing from levels to skills doesn't really alter anything fundamental. A "skill" based approach - offering more of a micro-management approach - would be more in character for TESO. And if they are going to change then prior to the console launch is the time to do it.
Scaling though - that is something else. You can scale "dungeons" whether you use levels or skills of course.
Agree this is a potential move in the right direction. The tiered raiding approach creates glass ceilings for many people, where opportunity = more powerful than anyone. With a system like the paragon system or the champion system players with less time can catch up on gear, and with less emphasis on power = progress and potentially scaling they remain competitive so therefore more satisfying for everyone, while offering everyone a continual upgrade path and goals.
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Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
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There's something i can't understand..
The very reason we do quests, kill mobs, do crafting and run dungeons is to improve our characters, so we can face greater challenges than before. Now, if content starts to scale down to my character's level, what is the point of even playing the game? The giant red dragon can be beaten instantly after character creation, because it 'scales down' to my level?
I don't mind moving away from levels in favor of skill/gear based gameplay, but content scaling to a player or player scaling to a content is not only wrong, but insulting idea from a mouth of game designer.
Easy. Instead of having one giant red dragon you have a couple of hundred red-dragon-like challenging fights and you gate them through chains of linked events.
If you actually think about it, it's exactly what we have now except those "red dragons" are segregated by levels. Any well designed game will dole out those challenges and epic moments throughout the leveling experience. They just happen to be labeled "level 10 boss", "level 15 boss" etc.
The only difference between the two models is that in one you have to do them sequentially in a specified order and in the other one you can decide in what order you want to do the content.
Insulting? really?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
So does that mean the overall challenge level of said dragon would remain the same throughout the game, but a player still had to gear up and acquire more skills to even out the odds against the mob?
I don't like the idea of every mob being possible to kill in every given time by everyone regardless your character's gear or skills available. That's what i would find insulting.
But if i understand it correctly, we're talking about quests that can be done in any order without a fear to outlevel them, and that could actually work, even though i still prefer the model where mobs are static and it's a player's responsible to make sure you are ready to encounter the dragon. You either are ready or not. I'd find it a bit strange if Conan the Barbarian would struggle against kobolds as much as a nameless warrior who just learned to use a sword.
I can see the problems in gating content by levels but i don't think scaling is the correct answer. There has to be gating by something, let it be gear or skill or whatever. Otherwise there's no progress and the game gets old very quickly. It's like playing an arcade shooter where you could play the stages in any order. After a while you would just give up playing whether you had completed the stages or not.
Have you played Skyrim?
It works the way I described. You can go do things in whatever order you want and the content nearly always feels like a fair challenge. The way they do it is by leveling the content to you,,, but that can only work in a single player game or a private instance of an MMO.
ESO group dungeons and private instances (The Mage's, Thieve's and Main story lines) level the content to you because they're instances. For open world game play to provide a similar thing, it has to happen by leveling you to the content.
This also is already done in Cyrodiil PVP 10-49. Everyone gets bolstered up to 50. And actually Cyrodiil is a great example of how this works while still providing character growth and advancement. Even though everyone 10-49 gets leveled up to the maximum magicka, stamina and health caps, a level 10 in Cyrodiil would have a hard time competing with a 49 simply because the 49 has experienced more and unlocked many more active and passive abilities. And when the veteran ranks go away, everyone after that will be 50 although with uncapped stats and the differences will be based on gear and how you spend your Champion Points.
Cyrodiil will play exactly like having no levels while still allowing character development and customization with CPs, gear and difference ability choices.
The DLCs will be similar. Sure you can buy it and go there with your level 10 and get bolstered up, but you'll really have to be on your toes at that level because you're missing a lot of skills.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I really dont like the idea of scaling outside of dungeons. In GW2 it doesnt cause higher level players to go back to earlier areas to do anything ( early levels there are as empty as ever ). What it does is basically throw away your time invested. And bolstering up does the opposite too.. People wont stay around the first areas since they will just jump right to the higher end areas and deal with whatever deaths may happen leaving them empty ( it is pretty easy to not get hit in the majority of fights ). It really just screws up the entire game.
At this rate all of the DLC will be instanced and that would also be pointless since it really takes away from exploring a giant world. Which is a big draw when it comes to TES.
If a game wants players to be able to play in any area then they need to make skills mean much more and have many more side abilities and passive perks. So your character skill level will decide where you can play. Not being bolstered up or being bolstered down which are pathetic ideas btw.
To pull this off believably they'd have to rework the entire spawn system to be akin to oblivion's where what spawned was based on your character level, IE a noob spawns wolves and critters a lvl 18 spawns daedra and trolls, The problem is that would be a nightmare in a multiplayer game. Zones would be all f'd up from a scaling perspective if handled in such a way. SO they have to scale the player to what's there. Putting players at a level field ensures everyone can fight it. Essentially it removes the idea of gaining power at all, everyone is equal.
I guess they're listening to the segment that felt TES requires a world where you can go any where at any time, and the world scales with you. All content being open to you.
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Not necessarily. In addition to what Iselin mentions above what it could mean is that every "dungeon" is a challenge. That if you get stuck on a particular dungeon you won't be able to return later and finish it when you are "over powered".
Instances in LotR are scaled for example (I think Turbine redid them all). As a result they "never" get easy and some dungeons get used at different levels. They also scaled the epic story line instances to be either solo or group - you get a choice. (And some still don't get used but ...)
It will depend on what Zenimax do; and how much effort they put into the scaling. And it could be a while before we find out if - as they said in December the focus is a) console launch and then b) Imperial City; if that still holds it could be much later this year. Or maybe they will scale some of the existing content prior to June. Have to see.
I agree that with ESO's "gain points and +10 attributes" style of levelling, it would be easy enough and possibly a good thing to just remove the default stat gains from levelling up and let the game be sort of "level-free."
I just wonder how difficult it would be to implement that in an MMORPG. Gaining skills and the small amount of stats will help, gaining gear will help, but how much do you make these gains meaningful while making the content still interesting for the decked out player?
I am glad I am not the one making this design, but I am very excited to see the end result.
"I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us" is very different from "I think the days of gating content are probably behind us". So there will still be gating.
BTW, I like levels.
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I'm not really sure exactly how they do it in ESO, but it's a combination of things that keeps lower leve lzone just as populated as higher ones. The cities, guild traders, and public dungeons have a lot to d with it I think.
Lotro has some f the best scaling mechanics around. One of the things that game does right. You can pick the level you want (defaulted to your current level) and just do it. Some instances do have minimum and maximum levels but you can still go in them over level.
The console version leveling to character didnt work well, the max level in those are not very big. I think 45 was max Skyrim level available. Not sure if there was a mod or not. So basically after you get to a certain level or have epic gear content is just too easy.
Yes, nut the question is why you should have level at all with such a system?
In GW2 you need the levels to open up more content, here it sounds like there is very few points with having levels.
Im not saying this is bad, but I think they either have gone too far or not far enough and are standing in a not so great middle way.
And will they add progression in some new way now?
Im sure they are not doing this for player freedom but more so they are not creating any barriers to anyone buying their DLC packs.
Can someone give me an example of how to scale an open world ( or zone if you want to say that ) in an MMORPG? And please dont say GW2 because that is lame. I dont want to see my level 50 turn into a twinked level 10 because I zoned nor do I want to see my level 1 bolstered up to a level 50s base stats. No boosting up or lowering either. IMO players should not be able to go anywhere at anytime without big risks.. An ogre should not scale down to level 1 because a new character ran across one.
Will the mobs be what scales and not the player? How would that work in an MMORPG outside of instances? You will have different level players running around the same areas. How will the game know who to scale to? Will they scale when they are attacked or aggro? Again some creatures shouldnt scale.
What about the DLC? Does this mean that everything they release now is going to be instanced to you or your group? No more open world content and player interaction seems likely if they are going to scale it all. Exploring the huge areas is a huge deal to me.
Honestly.. Paul Sage needs to look back at UO and see that even though you could go anywhere you wanted there you would die quickly without the proper skill levels. Now with ESO and action combat that is thrown out because there are no dice rolls and characters skills mean very little when you can avoid hits easily by simply moving and land hits by simply having your crosshair over an enemy.. Skills really dont matter.
This could be a mess in more ways than one.. Scaling leading to nothing but instanced DLCs which is my biggest worry.