Here i started to read thinking hmmm maybe there is something cool going on but now i see it is simply worlds with different pvp settings,no different to me anyhow than simply choosing a PVE server or a PVP server and i ALWAYS choose PVE.
Unless this game has created two sets of game design one for PVE and one for PVP it will fail badly because you cannot have the same settings,class design for both.PVP needs to be SOLO balanced and have maps designed for PVP.PVE does NOT want balance because it should be about performing your duties within a group an d in that case it does not matter if you have the same dmg output or the same healing output.
Games that TRY to do both usually just turn me right off because i know for fact they will not do either PVE or PVP it's proper justice but instead just wash the two together and flag players as pvp.I do not think this developer is showing good direction for game design,they are instead doing what every developer has tried to do before them,claim they have a game that caters to everyone.Well you can't have a game for everyone,it is impossible.
I would rather see a developer commit ALL of their resources to either a triple A PVE game or a triple A pvp game but never both.
While I don't expect people to look to deep into games they are passing judgement on, should have at least a general understanding of what is going on.
People who are completely unreceptive of PvP aspects, but want to achieve everything won't get along with our game. That's fine, there are other games out there that cater to that audience.
We don’t claim that! The idea that “all characters should be equally balanced in all situations” is not one of our design goals. We’re giving you the control to be able to customize your character. The natural result is that some character builds will inevitably be better than others.
Instead, our goal is to create a deep, complex simulation – filled with tactical and environmental considerations and emergent gameplay. Our design goal is that no single character is better than others in every situation.
This approach means that mastery of the game relies on skill: knowing how to build your character in a way that suits your playstyle, and then seeking out situations in the game that will be to your advantage. It also means that adventuring parties will be less cookie cutter, as the roles are not as clearly defined.
Yes, some people will undoubtedly be disappointed when the timer expires. Some people will be delighted. Some will be willing to try, not knowing what to expect. We can't worry about all that. If our goal was to appeal to everyone, we'd make WOW again.
Originally posted by achesoma No loot grind. No raids. No levels. Yes, please!
Translation: no content, no progression, and a very shallow "virtual world". So far smells like another MMO with a fantasy backdrop for pvp and land ownership, ie a revamped Darkfall clone.
At this point I'd rather play an open world PvE driven MMO with PvP and something interesting to fight over rather than another Counterstrike with elves.
Originally posted by achesoma No loot grind. No raids. No levels. Yes, please!
Translation: no content, no progression, and a very shallow "virtual world". So far smells like another MMO with a fantasy backdrop for pvp and land ownership, ie a revamped Darkfall clone.
At this point I'd rather play an open world PvE driven MMO with PvP and something interesting to fight over rather than another Counterstrike with elves.
Aren't players supposed to make up the "content" piece? Or at least that's what I've read a million times on here from the "sandbox or bust" crowd.
What type of PVE content would you like to see (compared to another game for example)?
They've said there will be plenty of skill based progression, but we'll have to see how far they take it. As most PVE games lack much progression after the initial hardcap, not really concerned myself.
I'm kind of irritated that healing and DPS have to be compared to the aggression system even though they existed long before MMOs established a dependency on a trinity...
But it's referenced from their site and I guess that's how MMO players perceive things...
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Very worried about the action combat direction. Typically this means 2 things:
1. Limited skill bar (extremely boring for me)
2 Spam fest combat (slower combat increased the value per cast increasing tactical combat options)
A direct comparison is ESO. Action combat (albeit a softer hybrid compared to some) with limited skill selections (not too bad if including both weapon bars) where spamming your attacks with animation cancelling is the gimmick of the day. Players complain of being forced to use ANYTHING with a cast time for most builds because of this mechanic.
Compare this to DAoC with tab targeting and a more timely combat system where long casts and positional combat was required to succeed. Each and every attack was extremely important when forced to consider if a spell had time to cast or if a combo was broken because you missed an attack in the chain.
I keep hearing action combat takes more skill ... no it doesn't when there are not multiple hit boxes and you could hit anything you wanted by "reasonably" aiming your cursor toward a target. Tactics are driven by choice. If your choice is to spam off as many attacks in a row as possible it most certainly isn't tactical combat.
Guess you've never played TERA.
Action combat works. If done right. ESO did a poor job.
TERA the action combat mmo that roots you to the spot while in combat, not much action there. ESO is far superior to TERA.
Originally posted by achesoma No loot grind. No raids. No levels. Yes, please!
Translation: no content, no progression, and a very shallow "virtual world". So far smells like another MMO with a fantasy backdrop for pvp and land ownership, ie a revamped Darkfall clone.
At this point I'd rather play an open world PvE driven MMO with PvP and something interesting to fight over rather than another Counterstrike with elves.
What you really mean is you've no imagination and need everything put in front of you for you to appreciate it. This game is not for you, just accept it and move on instead of trolling here for the next couple of years. I am giving you good advice on saving your time to use on more important areas of your life.
Why are devs (even some of the best) so convinced that Free for all PVP MMO's with action combat are what will be what gamers want? Have they not seen the writing on the wall with the others that have come out?
EVE is the only one still standing and it's more space sim/space fighter than an actual MMORPG. It's baffling.
You'd prefer yet another PvE centric MMO? Is the market not already saturated with them? There are very few quality PvP centric MMO's out there. This game is needed.
The thing is that PVP MMO market is going to end up in same situation. Every new kickstarter / indie title sounds the same in terms of PVP and open loot mechanics.
Moreover PVE MMO's will always have more appeal so a saturated PVE MMO market doesn't sound as bad as saturated PVP MMO market.
What is a PvE sandbox? That doesn't even make sense... you want to PvE, but don't want a driving story/plot? Just an open world with baddies in it for you to kill? sounds cool if mixed with typical PvE progression like Raids/Dungeons, but I really don't see the point just on it's own. A sandbox means less rules and unrestricted PvP in my book.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Originally posted by achesoma No loot grind. No raids. No levels. Yes, please!
Translation: no content, no progression, and a very shallow "virtual world". So far smells like another MMO with a fantasy backdrop for pvp and land ownership, ie a revamped Darkfall clone.
At this point I'd rather play an open world PvE driven MMO with PvP and something interesting to fight over rather than another Counterstrike with elves.
Aren't players supposed to make up the "content" piece? Or at least that's what I've read a million times on here from the "sandbox or bust" crowd.
What type of PVE content would you like to see (compared to another game for example)?
They've said there will be plenty of skill based progression, but we'll have to see how far they take it. As most PVE games lack much progression after the initial hardcap, not really concerned myself.
The whole "the players are the content" bit is mostly a pipe dream (for now). Back when people played MMOs casually it was more realistic, but now players binge so hard everyone has become self sufficient, never required to work or interact with others. There has to be strict player interdependence and a massive variety of different skills, goals and agendas for players to truly become the content, and almost never does this exist in an MMO.
Just an example, say a bunch of pirates want to build a ship so they can raid an enemy port (this would first require there to be a shipping or transportation industry). The process of creating the ship should be so expensive and tedious for a guild of pirates, they must be inclined to consult a guild of shipwrights with the connections and surplus of materials to build one in a timely fashion. Not just some player with max shipwright skill but a guild full of players who have both the necessary skill as well as the connections and surplus of materials to construct a vessel in a timely fashion. Thus the process of creating the ship would serve as content for the shipwrights, as well as the interaction between players. All this requires there be enough fun and depth in piracy, crafting ships, and transportation of good for players to be the content.
Until such a virtual world exists, I'd take an open world MMO where I can just fight over contested content like dungeons or areas with valuable resources and items.
Why are devs (even some of the best) so convinced that Free for all PVP MMO's with action combat are what will be what gamers want? Have they not seen the writing on the wall with the others that have come out?
EVE is the only one still standing and it's more space sim/space fighter than an actual MMORPG. It's baffling.
You'd prefer yet another PvE centric MMO? Is the market not already saturated with them? There are very few quality PvP centric MMO's out there. This game is needed.
The thing is that PVP MMO market is going to end up in same situation. Every new kickstarter / indie title sounds the same in terms of PVP and open loot mechanics.
Moreover PVE MMO's will always have more appeal so a saturated PVE MMO market doesn't sound as bad as saturated PVP MMO market.
The developers are clearly aiming for a niche target audience, and "regrettably" the mass group of people that enjoy engaging in battles with a bunch of scripts/codes aren't in their sights...
Originally posted by JDis25 What is a PvE sandbox? That doesn't even make sense... you want to PvE, but don't want a driving story/plot? Just an open world with baddies in it for you to kill? sounds cool if mixed with typical PvE progression like Raids/Dungeons, but I really don't see the point just on it's own. A sandbox means less rules and unrestricted PvP in my book.
ER, see SWG, one of the biggest sandbox games in history, with totally opt in PVP.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Why are devs (even some of the best) so convinced that Free for all PVP MMO's with action combat are what will be what gamers want? Have they not seen the writing on the wall with the others that have come out?
EVE is the only one still standing and it's more space sim/space fighter than an actual MMORPG. It's baffling.
Except that you got it a bit wrong. There are 0 high quality AAA fantasy openworld full loot sandbox mmorpgs on the market.
Every bug, every unfinished feature, every glitch, every exploit is quadruple as annoying and gamebreaking in an open world full loot player driven sandbox compared to themepark mmorpg. The few proper sandbox attempts are all full of these. Made by small companies who barely manage to create a skeleton of what a good game is suposed to be.
The next fantasy mmorpg that does what CCP does with their space ship mmorpg will have tripple the success of EvE.
The problem is most big companies are sucking dry their proven formula. I do't know if it's Crowfall bUt sooner or later that day will come.
Why are devs (even some of the best) so convinced that Free for all PVP MMO's with action combat are what will be what gamers want? Have they not seen the writing on the wall with the others that have come out?
EVE is the only one still standing and it's more space sim/space fighter than an actual MMORPG. It's baffling.
You'd prefer yet another PvE centric MMO? Is the market not already saturated with them? There are very few quality PvP centric MMO's out there. This game is needed.
The thing is that PVP MMO market is going to end up in same situation. Every new kickstarter / indie title sounds the same in terms of PVP and open loot mechanics.
Moreover PVE MMO's will always have more appeal so a saturated PVE MMO market doesn't sound as bad as saturated PVP MMO market.
The developers are clearly aiming for a niche target audience, and "regrettably" the mass group of people that enjoy engaging in battles with a bunch of scripts/codes aren't in their sights...
Sorry.
You are just repeating what i said. Why? i don't know.
Originally posted by achesoma No loot grind. No raids. No levels. Yes, please!
Translation: no content, no progression, and a very shallow "virtual world". So far smells like another MMO with a fantasy backdrop for pvp and land ownership, ie a revamped Darkfall clone.
At this point I'd rather play an open world PvE driven MMO with PvP and something interesting to fight over rather than another Counterstrike with elves.
Aren't players supposed to make up the "content" piece? Or at least that's what I've read a million times on here from the "sandbox or bust" crowd.
What type of PVE content would you like to see (compared to another game for example)?
They've said there will be plenty of skill based progression, but we'll have to see how far they take it. As most PVE games lack much progression after the initial hardcap, not really concerned myself.
The whole "the players are the content" bit is mostly a pipe dream (for now). Back when people played MMOs casually it was more realistic, but now players binge so hard everyone has become self sufficient, never required to work or interact with others. There has to be strict player interdependence and a massive variety of different skills, goals and agendas for players to truly become the content, and almost never does this exist in an MMO.
Just an example, say a bunch of pirates want to build a ship so they can raid an enemy port (this would first require there to be a shipping or transportation industry). The process of creating the ship should be so expensive and tedious for a guild of pirates, they must be inclined to consult a guild of shipwrights with the connections and surplus of materials to build one in a timely fashion. Not just some player with max shipwright skill but a guild full of players who have both the necessary skill as well as the connections and surplus of materials to construct a vessel in a timely fashion. Thus the process of creating the ship would serve as content for the shipwrights, as well as the interaction between players. All this requires there be enough fun and depth in piracy, crafting ships, and transportation of good for players to be the content.
Until such a virtual world exists, I'd take an open world MMO where I can just fight over contested content like dungeons or areas with valuable resources and items.
While I have no clue how deep CF will become or any of the similar upcoming games, it could happen. But to really get that deep/complex or bring more realism and simulation, probably going to need a much larger team and a ton more funding. I believe this is where games are heading, but maybe not yet at the level we would want.
What you are suggesting would require every element of the game to be worth playing on its own, which isn't an easy task. Do X number of people want to be shipwrights or castle builders or ox cart crafters? This is crossing over from folks just wanting to play GOT online and into really being part of a virtual world.
Sounds like they want to at last bring back some of that player to player connection where everyone isn't a master at every tradeskill and amazing at PVE and PVP and.... Where we actually need to talk to one another to get our personal, guild, or community goals accomplished. Time will tell though, still plenty to reveal.
While we can always want/expect more, we do have to keep our expectations within reason.
Originally posted by achesoma No loot grind. No raids. No levels. Yes, please!
Translation: no content, no progression, and a very shallow "virtual world". So far smells like another MMO with a fantasy backdrop for pvp and land ownership, ie a revamped Darkfall clone.
At this point I'd rather play an open world PvE driven MMO with PvP and something interesting to fight over rather than another Counterstrike with elves.
Aren't players supposed to make up the "content" piece? Or at least that's what I've read a million times on here from the "sandbox or bust" crowd.
What type of PVE content would you like to see (compared to another game for example)?
They've said there will be plenty of skill based progression, but we'll have to see how far they take it. As most PVE games lack much progression after the initial hardcap, not really concerned myself.
The whole "the players are the content" bit is mostly a pipe dream (for now). Back when people played MMOs casually it was more realistic, but now players binge so hard everyone has become self sufficient, never required to work or interact with others. There has to be strict player interdependence and a massive variety of different skills, goals and agendas for players to truly become the content, and almost never does this exist in an MMO.
Just an example, say a bunch of pirates want to build a ship so they can raid an enemy port (this would first require there to be a shipping or transportation industry). The process of creating the ship should be so expensive and tedious for a guild of pirates, they must be inclined to consult a guild of shipwrights with the connections and surplus of materials to build one in a timely fashion. Not just some player with max shipwright skill but a guild full of players who have both the necessary skill as well as the connections and surplus of materials to construct a vessel in a timely fashion. Thus the process of creating the ship would serve as content for the shipwrights, as well as the interaction between players. All this requires there be enough fun and depth in piracy, crafting ships, and transportation of good for players to be the content.
Until such a virtual world exists, I'd take an open world MMO where I can just fight over contested content like dungeons or areas with valuable resources and items.
While I have no clue how deep CF will become or any of the similar upcoming games, it could happen. But to really get that deep/complex or bring more realism and simulation, probably going to need a much larger team and a ton more funding. I believe this is where games are heading, but maybe not yet at the level we would want.
What you are suggesting would require every element of the game to be worth playing on its own, which isn't an easy task. Do X number of people want to be shipwrights or castle builders or ox cart crafters? This is crossing over from folks just wanting to play GOT online and into really being part of a virtual world.
Sounds like they want to at last bring back some of that player to player connection where everyone isn't a master at every tradeskill and amazing at PVE and PVP and.... Where we actually need to talk to one another to get our personal, guild, or community goals accomplished. Time will tell though, still plenty to reveal.
While we can always want/expect more, we do have to keep our expectations within reason.
Right.
This is why I'm a big proponent of focusing on building a meaningful game world first (PvE), even in a game heavily focused on PvP. Much of what is required for "players to be the content" can be simulated with PvE. Unfortunately the ignorant "hardcore pvp" crowd thinks because someone says PvE (this is player versus environment), they get their panties in a bunch and start shouting incoherently about "themepark", "quest hubs", "linear", "loot driven" when in reality, PvE doesn't have to be ANY of those things.
PvE is simply everything that brings the world to life in the absence of players or game mechanics (like the ones in my previous post). For instance, if you can't have a realistic transportation industry, you can build an npc port where players can pay to have things shipped across the world or charter boats to transport goods (thats permitted there isn't global banking, and moving large quantities of items or resources is actually dangerous). The dock workers could also be a faction that players could help or fight against to acquire certain items for crafting or some other form of progression.
Thats just an example of some of the things that mmorpgs, especially the pvp titles have lacked in the past.
Comments
While I don't expect people to look to deep into games they are passing judgement on, should have at least a general understanding of what is going on.
People who are completely unreceptive of PvP aspects, but want to achieve everything won't get along with our game. That's fine, there are other games out there that cater to that audience.
We don’t claim that! The idea that “all characters should be equally balanced in all situations” is not one of our design goals. We’re giving you the control to be able to customize your character. The natural result is that some character builds will inevitably be better than others.
Instead, our goal is to create a deep, complex simulation – filled with tactical and environmental considerations and emergent gameplay. Our design goal is that no single character is better than others in every situation.
This approach means that mastery of the game relies on skill: knowing how to build your character in a way that suits your playstyle, and then seeking out situations in the game that will be to your advantage. It also means that adventuring parties will be less cookie cutter, as the roles are not as clearly defined.
Yes, some people will undoubtedly be disappointed when the timer expires.
Some people will be delighted.
Some will be willing to try, not knowing what to expect.
We can't worry about all that. If our goal was to appeal to everyone, we'd make WOW again.
http://www.play2crush.com/
Yes I like colors
Translation: no content, no progression, and a very shallow "virtual world". So far smells like another MMO with a fantasy backdrop for pvp and land ownership, ie a revamped Darkfall clone.
At this point I'd rather play an open world PvE driven MMO with PvP and something interesting to fight over rather than another Counterstrike with elves.
Aren't players supposed to make up the "content" piece? Or at least that's what I've read a million times on here from the "sandbox or bust" crowd.
What type of PVE content would you like to see (compared to another game for example)?
They've said there will be plenty of skill based progression, but we'll have to see how far they take it. As most PVE games lack much progression after the initial hardcap, not really concerned myself.
But it's referenced from their site and I guess that's how MMO players perceive things...
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
TERA the action combat mmo that roots you to the spot while in combat, not much action there. ESO is far superior to TERA.
What you really mean is you've no imagination and need everything put in front of you for you to appreciate it. This game is not for you, just accept it and move on instead of trolling here for the next couple of years. I am giving you good advice on saving your time to use on more important areas of your life.
The thing is that PVP MMO market is going to end up in same situation. Every new kickstarter / indie title sounds the same in terms of PVP and open loot mechanics.
Moreover PVE MMO's will always have more appeal so a saturated PVE MMO market doesn't sound as bad as saturated PVP MMO market.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
The whole "the players are the content" bit is mostly a pipe dream (for now). Back when people played MMOs casually it was more realistic, but now players binge so hard everyone has become self sufficient, never required to work or interact with others. There has to be strict player interdependence and a massive variety of different skills, goals and agendas for players to truly become the content, and almost never does this exist in an MMO.
Just an example, say a bunch of pirates want to build a ship so they can raid an enemy port (this would first require there to be a shipping or transportation industry). The process of creating the ship should be so expensive and tedious for a guild of pirates, they must be inclined to consult a guild of shipwrights with the connections and surplus of materials to build one in a timely fashion. Not just some player with max shipwright skill but a guild full of players who have both the necessary skill as well as the connections and surplus of materials to construct a vessel in a timely fashion. Thus the process of creating the ship would serve as content for the shipwrights, as well as the interaction between players. All this requires there be enough fun and depth in piracy, crafting ships, and transportation of good for players to be the content.
Until such a virtual world exists, I'd take an open world MMO where I can just fight over contested content like dungeons or areas with valuable resources and items.
The developers are clearly aiming for a niche target audience, and "regrettably" the mass group of people that enjoy engaging in battles with a bunch of scripts/codes aren't in their sights...
Sorry.
ER, see SWG, one of the biggest sandbox games in history, with totally opt in PVP.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Except that you got it a bit wrong. There are 0 high quality AAA fantasy openworld full loot sandbox mmorpgs on the market.
Every bug, every unfinished feature, every glitch, every exploit is quadruple as annoying and gamebreaking in an open world full loot player driven sandbox compared to themepark mmorpg. The few proper sandbox attempts are all full of these. Made by small companies who barely manage to create a skeleton of what a good game is suposed to be.
The next fantasy mmorpg that does what CCP does with their space ship mmorpg will have tripple the success of EvE.
The problem is most big companies are sucking dry their proven formula. I do't know if it's Crowfall bUt sooner or later that day will come.
You are just repeating what i said. Why? i don't know.
While I have no clue how deep CF will become or any of the similar upcoming games, it could happen. But to really get that deep/complex or bring more realism and simulation, probably going to need a much larger team and a ton more funding. I believe this is where games are heading, but maybe not yet at the level we would want.
What you are suggesting would require every element of the game to be worth playing on its own, which isn't an easy task. Do X number of people want to be shipwrights or castle builders or ox cart crafters? This is crossing over from folks just wanting to play GOT online and into really being part of a virtual world.
Sounds like they want to at last bring back some of that player to player connection where everyone isn't a master at every tradeskill and amazing at PVE and PVP and.... Where we actually need to talk to one another to get our personal, guild, or community goals accomplished. Time will tell though, still plenty to reveal.
While we can always want/expect more, we do have to keep our expectations within reason.
Right.
This is why I'm a big proponent of focusing on building a meaningful game world first (PvE), even in a game heavily focused on PvP. Much of what is required for "players to be the content" can be simulated with PvE. Unfortunately the ignorant "hardcore pvp" crowd thinks because someone says PvE (this is player versus environment), they get their panties in a bunch and start shouting incoherently about "themepark", "quest hubs", "linear", "loot driven" when in reality, PvE doesn't have to be ANY of those things.
PvE is simply everything that brings the world to life in the absence of players or game mechanics (like the ones in my previous post). For instance, if you can't have a realistic transportation industry, you can build an npc port where players can pay to have things shipped across the world or charter boats to transport goods (thats permitted there isn't global banking, and moving large quantities of items or resources is actually dangerous). The dock workers could also be a faction that players could help or fight against to acquire certain items for crafting or some other form of progression.
Thats just an example of some of the things that mmorpgs, especially the pvp titles have lacked in the past.