DAOC remains one of my most enjoyable MMO experiences for a number of reasons.
For one DAOC was the last game where I truly enjoyed PVP for so many reasons, most of which have already been discussed here.
Second, the reactive tiered combat sequences were a lot of fun. You found an opening, executed a skill and if successful it led you to a 2nd more powerful skill and so on which played out graphically with ever more impressive effects. For me DAOC offered the most immersive combat I have experienced to date. Age of Conan had some potential there as well.
Third, the diversity in classes really allowed for a tremendous amount of replayability for an Alter like me. Each class had a fairly unique look and feel.
Del Cabon A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
If you weren't there, you won't understand it even if people explain it to you. I can tell you don't quite get what people are saying by how much you're trying to come back and say "oh but ESO also got this, or GW2 also have that". You don't get it, it was the whole package that made it work, not just one or two things that worked for DAOC. So it's moot to point out if GW2 has this, ESO has that. And I'm saying this as a GW2 fan.
Here's why I think DAOC was the best RvR MMO:
1. It was the first of its kind, we as gamers grew with it, and went through trials and error with Mythic as they developed it ground up. So it's natural for those of us that were there to feel attached and invested. We witnessed the good & bad, and we were there during the glorious prime days of DAOC RvR when it was at its peak. The DAOC we know these past 10 years are not that DAOC, so no the DAOC now isn't the better RvR game when compared to GW2/ESO.
2. 3 distinct realms, not just 3 realms, 3 distinct realms. You see the body shape and height of an enemy, you knew who you were fighting. You had that distinct distaste for people from another realm. If you've played WoW during vanilla you would've known the same feeling between alliance & horde, back when people killed each other not for gear, but because they were the opposite faction. You saw them, you just had to kill them, it was natural. It can be summed as "realm pride". Yes it's that simple, and somehow that simple aspect hasn't been reproduced well by other MMO's. WoW had it going during vanilla and BC, but the game now pretty much have you hand holding with another faction anymore. You won't understand it unless you were there. In DAOC when you saw another realm taking your keeps, you took offense to that, you dropped what you were doing and went out to fight to take back your land. That realm pride, something greater than gear grind.
3. Strategic castle siege and relic attacks. I know you mentioned in your OP to not mention castle siege because GW2 & ESO have them as well. But I have to mention it because GW2 & ESO don't quite have it like DAOC back in the days. There were towers you had to capture in order to siege a keep. Then keeps had to be taken in a specific manner in order for relic keeps to be doable. Taking enemy keeps reduced the number of godlike relic guards at the relic keeps, and boy those guys hurt like a mother.
To make this more clear, using GW2 for an example if GW2 did something similar. It's be like certain towers had to be taken before Bay became available to be sieged. And that certain keeps had to be taken before Garrison was even doable. You see how that would've spawned strategic defenses and attack patterns if GW2 had that requirement? Rather than this Friday evenings during reset everybody zerging the Garrisons and opening it up like swiss cheese tactic. One of the problems with newer MMO's is that it's all about attack attack attack, it became harder and harder to defend due to the way games are designed these days. DAOC rewarded good defense, and defending was actually doable, and it wasn't doable by setting up a million arrow carts either. (arrow carts have to be one of the most annoying things ever created in a RvR game)
And then there's the relic raid. Yes ESO has relic raids, I went to several of them. But it was...underwhelming to say the least. First of all, it felt like any standard siege, nothing was special about the relic raids. Secondly enemies could never catch up to the relic carriers due to ridiculous game balance of how fast certain classes could run (I played during the first few months of launch, don't know if they changed it). The thing is, DAOC's relic raids were epic, so epic that most people had a hard time playing it due to technology and lag at the time. And carrying the relic back, enemies had a chance to intercept the runner. Relics didn't just change hands so often like they do in ESO, because it was difficult to achieve. I remember seeing a trail of 50+ realm mates running out from the gates toward the relic keep that was under attack. It was fun to see, people just kept pouring out in masses to help us keep the relics.
4. As have been mentioned, and endless debates ensued, DAOC didn't place CC limits unlike GW2's low number of CC cap. This is yet something you probably won't understand unless you played it. DAOC's class balance was far from perfect, chain aoe stuns were dumb when it lasted, some classes were way too overpowered. But by virtue of not having a low cap on CC, it gave people a chance. Even with bad class balance, not having that cc cap gave people with the better draws or the better strategic positioning a chance to fight back no matter the number differences. We can debate this all we want, but it worked for DAOC.
5. RvR was the endgame, it wasn't an optional side game, it was the endgame. You leveled up in PvE, I remember grinding at some camp with purple wolves, like 20 people on the waiting list to grind out the last 5 levels. Once you level everybody cheered you on, because you were ready to become a realm defender out in RvR for your realm. When was the last time anybody gave a darn about you leveling to cap in any game on any server? Probably not since DAOC during the early days. And once you cap, you RvR'ed your hearts out to gain those realm points and abilities that helped you out greatly in RvR. You worked towards perfecting your suits via crafting and such. And you did all that, just so you could pwn in RvR and help your realm win.
These days games are more PvE focused, even GW2 focuses more on PvE content and I say this as a GW2 player. Blizzard pretty much gave up on PvP, you can tell by how badly designed Ashran is in the latest WoD expansion. ESO, it has moments of brilliance in RvR but there are too many things that bugged me about the game, from reticle combat, to bad class balance, to lack of direction in RvR, to too much downtime in between fights. The thing is I understand why companies go with PvE, because that's where the larger crowd is, where they make more money. PvE is Blizzard's bread & butter and it's why they're still the #1 MMO in the U.S. But it was nice back when a smaller studio was willing to cater to the PvP crowd, made a game with RvR as endgame in mind, and fully concentrated on RvR. Their time and efforts were seen. Just as GW2 focusing on PvE more than WvW can be seen by how little content they've released for WvW.
6. Small things such as rogue classes could climb ladder during a keep siege, it gave tanks something to do during keep defense as they manned the ladder points. Holy trinity, I'm partial to holy trinity setup because it gave people clear purpose and roles. Guilds that claimed keeps could upgrade keeps with specific guards/archers, stealth seeing npc's, vendors, etc. Also melee combat was interesting, from reactionary skills, positionals, to chained combat moves. There were classes that excelled at range, but weak close up, like fire wizards. There were pet classes that were really fun to play, while other mage classes excelled at pbaoe. These days it seems everybody's got the same range and similar abilities.
There are other things to list but my post already got longer than I wanted. DAOC just worked, for good & bad, the combination they put together worked. As for how I would improve GW2 & ESO? GW2 could use better strategic direction in WvW, and a relic raid would absolutely be awesome to see in GW2. It could also use a higher cc cap. ESO needs to cut down on downtime, needs better class balance, relic raids need to be made more epic, and controls need to be less clunky (I hate reticle targeting, I just do).
Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW
Comments
DAOC remains one of my most enjoyable MMO experiences for a number of reasons.
For one DAOC was the last game where I truly enjoyed PVP for so many reasons, most of which have already been discussed here.
Second, the reactive tiered combat sequences were a lot of fun. You found an opening, executed a skill and if successful it led you to a 2nd more powerful skill and so on which played out graphically with ever more impressive effects. For me DAOC offered the most immersive combat I have experienced to date. Age of Conan had some potential there as well.
Third, the diversity in classes really allowed for a tremendous amount of replayability for an Alter like me. Each class had a fairly unique look and feel.
Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
If you weren't there, you won't understand it even if people explain it to you. I can tell you don't quite get what people are saying by how much you're trying to come back and say "oh but ESO also got this, or GW2 also have that". You don't get it, it was the whole package that made it work, not just one or two things that worked for DAOC. So it's moot to point out if GW2 has this, ESO has that. And I'm saying this as a GW2 fan.
Here's why I think DAOC was the best RvR MMO:
1. It was the first of its kind, we as gamers grew with it, and went through trials and error with Mythic as they developed it ground up. So it's natural for those of us that were there to feel attached and invested. We witnessed the good & bad, and we were there during the glorious prime days of DAOC RvR when it was at its peak. The DAOC we know these past 10 years are not that DAOC, so no the DAOC now isn't the better RvR game when compared to GW2/ESO.
2. 3 distinct realms, not just 3 realms, 3 distinct realms. You see the body shape and height of an enemy, you knew who you were fighting. You had that distinct distaste for people from another realm. If you've played WoW during vanilla you would've known the same feeling between alliance & horde, back when people killed each other not for gear, but because they were the opposite faction. You saw them, you just had to kill them, it was natural. It can be summed as "realm pride". Yes it's that simple, and somehow that simple aspect hasn't been reproduced well by other MMO's. WoW had it going during vanilla and BC, but the game now pretty much have you hand holding with another faction anymore. You won't understand it unless you were there. In DAOC when you saw another realm taking your keeps, you took offense to that, you dropped what you were doing and went out to fight to take back your land. That realm pride, something greater than gear grind.
3. Strategic castle siege and relic attacks. I know you mentioned in your OP to not mention castle siege because GW2 & ESO have them as well. But I have to mention it because GW2 & ESO don't quite have it like DAOC back in the days. There were towers you had to capture in order to siege a keep. Then keeps had to be taken in a specific manner in order for relic keeps to be doable. Taking enemy keeps reduced the number of godlike relic guards at the relic keeps, and boy those guys hurt like a mother.
To make this more clear, using GW2 for an example if GW2 did something similar. It's be like certain towers had to be taken before Bay became available to be sieged. And that certain keeps had to be taken before Garrison was even doable. You see how that would've spawned strategic defenses and attack patterns if GW2 had that requirement? Rather than this Friday evenings during reset everybody zerging the Garrisons and opening it up like swiss cheese tactic. One of the problems with newer MMO's is that it's all about attack attack attack, it became harder and harder to defend due to the way games are designed these days. DAOC rewarded good defense, and defending was actually doable, and it wasn't doable by setting up a million arrow carts either. (arrow carts have to be one of the most annoying things ever created in a RvR game)
And then there's the relic raid. Yes ESO has relic raids, I went to several of them. But it was...underwhelming to say the least. First of all, it felt like any standard siege, nothing was special about the relic raids. Secondly enemies could never catch up to the relic carriers due to ridiculous game balance of how fast certain classes could run (I played during the first few months of launch, don't know if they changed it). The thing is, DAOC's relic raids were epic, so epic that most people had a hard time playing it due to technology and lag at the time. And carrying the relic back, enemies had a chance to intercept the runner. Relics didn't just change hands so often like they do in ESO, because it was difficult to achieve. I remember seeing a trail of 50+ realm mates running out from the gates toward the relic keep that was under attack. It was fun to see, people just kept pouring out in masses to help us keep the relics.
4. As have been mentioned, and endless debates ensued, DAOC didn't place CC limits unlike GW2's low number of CC cap. This is yet something you probably won't understand unless you played it. DAOC's class balance was far from perfect, chain aoe stuns were dumb when it lasted, some classes were way too overpowered. But by virtue of not having a low cap on CC, it gave people a chance. Even with bad class balance, not having that cc cap gave people with the better draws or the better strategic positioning a chance to fight back no matter the number differences. We can debate this all we want, but it worked for DAOC.
5. RvR was the endgame, it wasn't an optional side game, it was the endgame. You leveled up in PvE, I remember grinding at some camp with purple wolves, like 20 people on the waiting list to grind out the last 5 levels. Once you level everybody cheered you on, because you were ready to become a realm defender out in RvR for your realm. When was the last time anybody gave a darn about you leveling to cap in any game on any server? Probably not since DAOC during the early days. And once you cap, you RvR'ed your hearts out to gain those realm points and abilities that helped you out greatly in RvR. You worked towards perfecting your suits via crafting and such. And you did all that, just so you could pwn in RvR and help your realm win.
These days games are more PvE focused, even GW2 focuses more on PvE content and I say this as a GW2 player. Blizzard pretty much gave up on PvP, you can tell by how badly designed Ashran is in the latest WoD expansion. ESO, it has moments of brilliance in RvR but there are too many things that bugged me about the game, from reticle combat, to bad class balance, to lack of direction in RvR, to too much downtime in between fights. The thing is I understand why companies go with PvE, because that's where the larger crowd is, where they make more money. PvE is Blizzard's bread & butter and it's why they're still the #1 MMO in the U.S. But it was nice back when a smaller studio was willing to cater to the PvP crowd, made a game with RvR as endgame in mind, and fully concentrated on RvR. Their time and efforts were seen. Just as GW2 focusing on PvE more than WvW can be seen by how little content they've released for WvW.
6. Small things such as rogue classes could climb ladder during a keep siege, it gave tanks something to do during keep defense as they manned the ladder points. Holy trinity, I'm partial to holy trinity setup because it gave people clear purpose and roles. Guilds that claimed keeps could upgrade keeps with specific guards/archers, stealth seeing npc's, vendors, etc. Also melee combat was interesting, from reactionary skills, positionals, to chained combat moves. There were classes that excelled at range, but weak close up, like fire wizards. There were pet classes that were really fun to play, while other mage classes excelled at pbaoe. These days it seems everybody's got the same range and similar abilities.
There are other things to list but my post already got longer than I wanted. DAOC just worked, for good & bad, the combination they put together worked. As for how I would improve GW2 & ESO? GW2 could use better strategic direction in WvW, and a relic raid would absolutely be awesome to see in GW2. It could also use a higher cc cap. ESO needs to cut down on downtime, needs better class balance, relic raids need to be made more epic, and controls need to be less clunky (I hate reticle targeting, I just do).
Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO
Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW