If they can pull off a Fantasy EVE Online ArtCraft will have a gold nugget on their hands, that may not appeal to everyone but will definitely appeal to enough players as there is nothing really like it out there.
Except that Pathfinder Online is already targeting this market and is accepting players.
I play Pathfinder and it caters far too much to the Care Bear PvE crowd, who is content with the lack of both PvE content and limitations of PvP.
Pfo is "dead on arrival" and they are already desperate for subscriptions in their second month.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
How is ganking and open-world pvp better? Have you seen the imbalances of it in games like Archeage, Black Desert, or even WoW (pre-BG era)? At least with instanced pvp, it is much more organized with voice chat and rulesets. There's a reason why professional tournaments use instanced pvp matches. It's always amusing when people claim that unorganized and chaotic open-world pvp is somehow better and strategic. It's just like GW2's PvE zergs, except for PvP. lol.
It's all in how the game rules are set up, and in how well players bond together to protect and defend their own.
I don't know how Black Desert or Archeage handle it, but I can tell you from my experiences in WoW, that the reason ganking was so prevalent there is because there was absolutely no repercussion for it.
Go into a lowbie, enemy faction area, go to one of the hot-spots (a town, near a gryphon handler, etc), and proceed to kill off all NPCs and players... until higher levels show up... then flee to the safety of your own areas where you're highly unlikely to be chased.
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
I played Lineage 2 for almost 5 years. I can count on 2 hands the number of times I was ganked - as in, legitimately overpowered by either much more powerful players, or a gang of them, where I stood no chance in surviving or getting away, unless I had a BSoE, which I rarely had.
Meanwhile, on a WoW PvP server, I was ganked at least that many times in any given week.
Because WoW allows players to escape to "faction friendly territory", where they're highly unlikely to be pursued, and the odds of running into the same players again (unless you're both frequenting the same specific areas). They can gank to their heart's content, and walk away scott free.
In Lineage 2, however, you gank someone.. you go Red/Chaotic. You become an outlaw. You become a free target to anyone who wants to kill you - or try to anyway.
In Lineage 2, outside of towns/cities, there are no safe zones. You screw with the wrong people (such as a rival clan member, or a friend or alt of one), you will have a bull's eye painted on your back everywhere you go. There are no "faction friendly areas" to retreat to.
In Lineage 2 - at least pre-GoD/F2P - there was an actual sense of 'team pride' - something I've never seen in other MMOs, or at least not nearly so strong. People looked after their own. If you mentioned in clan/ally chat that you were being attacked, or had been ganked by someone, within a few minutes, you could have several of your clan/allyl mates out to you, looking to give you a low xp-loss raise, so the bunch of you could go hunt down and take on your attackers.
In any other PvP MMO I've played, reporting to your clan/ally that you were being attacked resulted in "well, you better fight back! lol". If you'd ask for back up, they'd say "no way! This is a PvP MMO. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be playing". They saw a fellow clan-mate asking for backup as a sign of weakness; an opportunity to pump themselves up by putting someone else - a supposed ally - down. I saw this happen many times in other PvP MMOs I've played.
I never saw that attitude in L2. Never. Not once. It was all about supporting your team, your clan/ally in that game.
I have great memories of myself and a clan leader (on his alt) being ganked by a couple other players while leveling. My clan leader put out the call, and about 5 minutes later, 8 other ally/clan mates were there. About 10 minutes after that, all 10 of us were standing around the dead bodies of our attackers. I used to have a screenshot of it, with my clan leader saying: "Next time you decide to gank someone, make sure you know who you're fucking with". And he was 100% serious. That was not just "tough talk". You did not screw with our clan/ally-mates. Period.
Another clan I was in at one point, was more PvE focused. We didn't go out of our way to engage in PvP, and would usually lose in the encounters. However, just like any other clan, if you messed with our members, we showed up to defend them. We may have lost, but we still showed up.
Again, team pride. Looking after your own. That was a very real thing in L2. At least back in its pre-GoD days. I don't know how it is now; it didn't seem as common last time I checked it out more recently.
Because of that level of team pride, and the very real likelihood of swift retaliation, along with the "chaotic" and "karma" systems, people tended to choose their targets more selectively. So, ganking wasn't nearly as widespread or rampant as it is in a MMO like WoW, where there are no repercussions.|
Also, many of the senior/veteran players in L2 actively discouraged lowbie ganking, as it was bad for the popoulation. They would go to the lowbie areas, and personally deal with any gankers harassing newer/lower level players, because they recognized the damage rampant ganking could do to their game.
They recognized that the new player experience, those first several levels, were critical to deciding whether someone would be leaving, or staying for the long-haul. They wanted new players to have as fun and positive an experience as possible, so they'd stick around, the game could grow, and they'd have more allies - or even enemies - in the future.
They also recognized the difference between "ganking" and "actual PvP". They accepted it was going to happen, but they tried to mitigate it as much as they could. This is something else I've never seen in any other PvP MMO.
So, an open PvP system can very well work... but not only because of how the game is designed, but because of what kind of community it fosters.
If Crowfall can manage to generate the kind of community Lineage 2 had, where people defended their own, and where "ganking" and "PvP" were not treated as the same thing... it could become something quite amazing. And I'd love to see that.
I'd love to see a pre-GoD Lineage 2 - particularly Chronicle 1 through Interlude - type of community come together around this game. It would make for an awesome experience
Why is this so hyped... Most likely it'll just be another crowd-sourced game via Kickstarter or Early Access on Steam, and won't be out for like another 5 years, or even never. If I sound bitter about Kickstarter and Early Access games... I am. So sick of seeing crappy, unfinished "indie" games bloat the market. I haven't been able to find a decent RPG to play in months now because studios that make AAA+ games apparently aren't in the game-making business as much they used to be or something.
Now we get tons of unfinished messes begging for people's money so they can finish their mess in twice the time it would take other developers. The Witcher 3 can't come soon enough for me...
Full loot PvP and perma-death being talked about in relation to this game - both terrible ideas in a world where lag and disconnects exist. UO proved this last century.
Originally posted by odiasuda Full loot PvP and perma-death being talked about in relation to this game - both terrible ideas in a world where lag and disconnects exist. UO proved this last century.
Those would be for one campaign, not all campaigns would have full loot (and you'd never have to play in that campaign if you did not want to) same applies to "perma-death", which actually isn't a perma-death, but a last man standing, if you die, you're out of the campaign, but you'll still keep your character.
Comments
I play Pathfinder and it caters far too much to the Care Bear PvE crowd, who is content with the lack of both PvE content and limitations of PvP.
Pfo is "dead on arrival" and they are already desperate for subscriptions in their second month.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
How is ganking and open-world pvp better? Have you seen the imbalances of it in games like Archeage, Black Desert, or even WoW (pre-BG era)? At least with instanced pvp, it is much more organized with voice chat and rulesets. There's a reason why professional tournaments use instanced pvp matches. It's always amusing when people claim that unorganized and chaotic open-world pvp is somehow better and strategic. It's just like GW2's PvE zergs, except for PvP. lol.
It's all in how the game rules are set up, and in how well players bond together to protect and defend their own.
Go into a lowbie, enemy faction area, go to one of the hot-spots (a town, near a gryphon handler, etc), and proceed to kill off all NPCs and players... until higher levels show up... then flee to the safety of your own areas where you're highly unlikely to be chased.
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
I played Lineage 2 for almost 5 years. I can count on 2 hands the number of times I was ganked - as in, legitimately overpowered by either much more powerful players, or a gang of them, where I stood no chance in surviving or getting away, unless I had a BSoE, which I rarely had.
Meanwhile, on a WoW PvP server, I was ganked at least that many times in any given week.
Because WoW allows players to escape to "faction friendly territory", where they're highly unlikely to be pursued, and the odds of running into the same players again (unless you're both frequenting the same specific areas). They can gank to their heart's content, and walk away scott free.
In Lineage 2, however, you gank someone.. you go Red/Chaotic. You become an outlaw. You become a free target to anyone who wants to kill you - or try to anyway.
In Lineage 2, outside of towns/cities, there are no safe zones. You screw with the wrong people (such as a rival clan member, or a friend or alt of one), you will have a bull's eye painted on your back everywhere you go. There are no "faction friendly areas" to retreat to.
In Lineage 2 - at least pre-GoD/F2P - there was an actual sense of 'team pride' - something I've never seen in other MMOs, or at least not nearly so strong. People looked after their own. If you mentioned in clan/ally chat that you were being attacked, or had been ganked by someone, within a few minutes, you could have several of your clan/allyl mates out to you, looking to give you a low xp-loss raise, so the bunch of you could go hunt down and take on your attackers.
In any other PvP MMO I've played, reporting to your clan/ally that you were being attacked resulted in "well, you better fight back! lol". If you'd ask for back up, they'd say "no way! This is a PvP MMO. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be playing". They saw a fellow clan-mate asking for backup as a sign of weakness; an opportunity to pump themselves up by putting someone else - a supposed ally - down. I saw this happen many times in other PvP MMOs I've played.
I never saw that attitude in L2. Never. Not once. It was all about supporting your team, your clan/ally in that game.
I have great memories of myself and a clan leader (on his alt) being ganked by a couple other players while leveling. My clan leader put out the call, and about 5 minutes later, 8 other ally/clan mates were there. About 10 minutes after that, all 10 of us were standing around the dead bodies of our attackers. I used to have a screenshot of it, with my clan leader saying: "Next time you decide to gank someone, make sure you know who you're fucking with". And he was 100% serious. That was not just "tough talk". You did not screw with our clan/ally-mates. Period.
Another clan I was in at one point, was more PvE focused. We didn't go out of our way to engage in PvP, and would usually lose in the encounters. However, just like any other clan, if you messed with our members, we showed up to defend them. We may have lost, but we still showed up.
Again, team pride. Looking after your own. That was a very real thing in L2. At least back in its pre-GoD days. I don't know how it is now; it didn't seem as common last time I checked it out more recently.
Because of that level of team pride, and the very real likelihood of swift retaliation, along with the "chaotic" and "karma" systems, people tended to choose their targets more selectively. So, ganking wasn't nearly as widespread or rampant as it is in a MMO like WoW, where there are no repercussions.|
Also, many of the senior/veteran players in L2 actively discouraged lowbie ganking, as it was bad for the popoulation. They would go to the lowbie areas, and personally deal with any gankers harassing newer/lower level players, because they recognized the damage rampant ganking could do to their game.
They recognized that the new player experience, those first several levels, were critical to deciding whether someone would be leaving, or staying for the long-haul. They wanted new players to have as fun and positive an experience as possible, so they'd stick around, the game could grow, and they'd have more allies - or even enemies - in the future.
They also recognized the difference between "ganking" and "actual PvP". They accepted it was going to happen, but they tried to mitigate it as much as they could. This is something else I've never seen in any other PvP MMO.
So, an open PvP system can very well work... but not only because of how the game is designed, but because of what kind of community it fosters.
If Crowfall can manage to generate the kind of community Lineage 2 had, where people defended their own, and where "ganking" and "PvP" were not treated as the same thing... it could become something quite amazing. And I'd love to see that.
I'd love to see a pre-GoD Lineage 2 - particularly Chronicle 1 through Interlude - type of community come together around this game. It would make for an awesome experience
I'll be keeping an eye on it.
MMORPG.com - please delete my previous post, since none of it is showing up at all, because your posting system is still horribly broken.
Why is this so hyped... Most likely it'll just be another crowd-sourced game via Kickstarter or Early Access on Steam, and won't be out for like another 5 years, or even never. If I sound bitter about Kickstarter and Early Access games... I am. So sick of seeing crappy, unfinished "indie" games bloat the market. I haven't been able to find a decent RPG to play in months now because studios that make AAA+ games apparently aren't in the game-making business as much they used to be or something.
Now we get tons of unfinished messes begging for people's money so they can finish their mess in twice the time it would take other developers. The Witcher 3 can't come soon enough for me...
Smile
Those would be for one campaign, not all campaigns would have full loot (and you'd never have to play in that campaign if you did not want to) same applies to "perma-death", which actually isn't a perma-death, but a last man standing, if you die, you're out of the campaign, but you'll still keep your character.
Amazing I am in love with the Ring system of pve-pvp area separation, really innovative.
Kinda like Modern micro processor design; you gota be 1337 to play in Ring 0