In the end what kille dthe game for me was the slow YAW.
They devs explayned is slow because they want to be slow and that's the end of it.
My guess is that is slow because they want o have the game playable with a game pad for consoles.
Yaw is slow because otherwise everyone would be standing still and do turreting in space / in place. Its a lesson learned from early testing. It had nothing to do with any special control type. Would have made combat very static.
In the end what kille dthe game for me was the slow YAW.
They devs explayned is slow because they want to be slow and that's the end of it.
My guess is that is slow because they want o have the game playable with a game pad for consoles.
Yaw is slow because otherwise everyone would be standing still and do turreting in space / in place. Its a lesson learned from early testing. It had nothing to do with any special control type. Would have made combat very static.
Have fun
A lot of other games including Star citzen and Star conflict have "fast" yaw and nobody stays still. So your explanation is plain BS !
EDIT: even devs said that is their decision and doesn't have to do with tureting.
I don't know what you mean by "slow yaw" ? I'm using a joystick with a twist grip and everything flies much the same as it would in any other flight sim I've played.
As for the complaints at the start of this thread some months ago, much of them have already been addressed but anyone that bought the game having done a bit of research should have known the game is an ongoing development project. If I get bored I just go play something else for a while. New stuff is being added all the time.
IMO the game has the best flight model i experienced in a space game. Contrary to other games, it actually demands some skill from the pilot. I tried SC when it had free test weekend and couldnt stand ten minutes becouse flight was so easy and lame. One can argue that ED model is unreallistic and i agree, but there is a reason i dont play train simulators... they are equally boring and easy as playing "turret in space".
I more or less agree with other points though
If this would have been a plane simluator then the model would be right.
If you think tureting is the key to win try Star Conflict where you can turret in space and see how long you survive to a fast ship.
The flight model is exactly what they were going for, ie Star Wars-like dogfighting. It works well with the ship design, the thruster placement and so on.
I've always felt having fast yaw gives a very FPS feeling to a game, where it becomes more about who can aim faster rather than position themselves better. It's something Star Citizen is going tthrough, the amount of guns, aiming and rotation speed tends to nullify most of the strategy.
A lot of other games including Star citzen and Star conflict have "fast" yaw and nobody stays still. So your explanation is plain BS !
EDIT: even devs said that is their decision and doesn't have to do with tureting.
>>>> Mike Evans *** Designer *** Frontier <<<<<<<<<<<<
Indeed, a request is just that. We don't have to do anything if we don't want to but that doesn't mean we didn't read and consider the request. Suffice to say a low yaw rate is a fundamental part of our games aesthetics and a corner stone to our flight model that we at frontier like the way it is. We're not changing it, for to do so would be to compromise our own vision for what Elite: Dangerous is and what it's going to be. I don't give a damn what all the other space games have done in the past, nor do I care that our yaw rates are apparently even slower than a plane's is (though every time I've tried doing a pure yaw turn in IL-2 I've stalled my plane before I got anything that even resembled a steady and fast turn rate). Fast yaw and pitch in a space game is a video game trope of the highest order along with banner arrows sliding around the screen and compasses telling you where to fly all the time. I'm almost certain that other developers just implement those features because they've been so prevalent rather than actually reassessing whether the game needed them or could be even better without them! We found for example that the compass that pointed you towards your target at all times made combat too easy to end in stalemate of circling. As soon as we tried removing it all of a sudden it was more exciting to fight someone because they could give you the slip whilst you weren't glancing at your sensors and even if you did pay attention to the sensors the difference in the way the information is presented can still mean you don't quite stay on the target's tail perfectly, again providing more opportunities for them to turn the tide of the battle.
Suffice to say we wanted Elite to feel like star wars in terms of how the ships move by banking/rolling and pitching through manoeuvres opposed to the yaw and pitch based FPS style movement most other space games offered (where roll plays little or no part). That limitation to having to do your main directional change manoeuvring by pitching makes the flight path taken to be more cinematic and means a skilled player can predict the manoeuvres of an opponent in advanced by observing their current roll position relative to themselves only. So long as they match the roll quickly enough they can always follow through the inevitable pitch manoeuvre effectively and maintain the chase. If the target could yaw or pitch effectively then it's much harder to assess what they're going to do as they're current roll position doesn't really matter any more.
Finally realism has played no part whatsoever in any of our design discussions about the flight model. We don't care what would be realistic as we only care what the game play experience is when flying these ships and so far we feel we're hitting the right notes for the majority of our audience.
****If the target could yaw or pitch effectively then it's much harder to assess what they're going to do as they're current roll position doesn't really matter any more.****
----> For those unfamiliar with flight mechanics ... that is called "turreting". You have a preset flight direction and turn around quickly in place (shooting at a pursuer at your six). If you watched a Battlestar Galactica (new series) Viper fight (Starbuck flipping around, shooting at Scar), you know what i mean. That only works in space, where there is no air drag. Most space sim games go for the Star-Warsy feeling, which is essentially a World War I biplane dogfight feeling according to George Lucas. Everyone tries to get into the enemies "six" and shoot them down from a trailing position slightly below the chased plane. A true spaceflight fight is completely different and no fun. Frontier tried it in earlier Elite/Frontier games.
Hi, 11 year vet of a "fast yaw" space MMORPG here...
The argument that yaw speed has anything to do with the depth of combat is bogus. It's a design choice, pure and simple.
So called "turreting" doesn't really exist in my opinion (there are actual turrets in the game I play, but that's not how the term is being used here). Having equal pitch and yaw torque means that there are more options in getting an opponent to expose a flank when in a close dogfight. It's the difference between moving a queen and moving a rook on a chessboard. It becomes about the contours of an opponent's spaceship, where their weapons are located, the firing arc of these weapons, and the weapon velocity.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a full Newtonian 6DoF design using equal pitch and yaw torque. Neither is there anything wrong with having a weakened yaw. It leads to a different UX, and not one has any more depth over the other, or if so it is far too early to disregard one method instead of the other. There is lots of experience to back up the argument that equal pitch and yaw torque works, and allows a variety of strategies and tactics to flourish.
It's important to note that ship velocity should have a considerable percentage of typical weapon velocities in such a game, to allow for pilot reactions (on the order of 50 - 500 ms). Some pilots appear to have such fast reaction times because they have been playing the game for so long they can predict the next move. It becomes learning by rote, similar to the Gun Kata.
The range at which these fights occur varies between extremely close, and very far. The tactics for each varies accordingly. This isn't theory; this has been my experience.
In my opinion, the weakened yaw in E:D is due to the inclusion of hitscan weapons (laser beams). A weapon with infinite velocity allows for no pilot reaction.
Have a nice day
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Elite is not an MMO, Maybe you should not have bought it in the first place without researching what the game is about. A 30 minute look at twitch would show you exactly what the game is about. I honestly love Elite and come back to it every time they update it (which is fairly often considering its not an mmo and IS considered a released title). Elite is not meant to be like EvE, or star citizen or any of those space mmo's. They had a very specific goal in mind when creating elite and i think they knocked it out of the park. If you don't enjoy it maybe your not playing it right or maybe like i said to begin with, its just not your kind of game and you probably just have researched more before buying it.
As you can see ignorance is not bliss.
Do you like lollipops? Suck it. Don't bite you greedy twit.
Opinions are like buttholes, we all have them, and they all stink. So here's my butthole: I like the game, I've put over 100 hours into it since buying it a couple weeks ago. Money well spent in my opinion.
Also, it seems "turreting" is still possible, just turn off flight assist and have at it.
Elite is not an MMO, Maybe you should not have bought it in the first place without researching what the game is about. A 30 minute look at twitch would show you exactly what the game is about. I honestly love Elite and come back to it every time they update it (which is fairly often considering its not an mmo and IS considered a released title). Elite is not meant to be like EvE, or star citizen or any of those space mmo's. They had a very specific goal in mind when creating elite and i think they knocked it out of the park. If you don't enjoy it maybe your not playing it right or maybe like i said to begin with, its just not your kind of game and you probably just have researched more before buying it.
As you can see ignorance is not bliss.
Its pretty clear that Elite wants to cultivate a PvE experience with small PvP skirmishes. Unfortunately the PvE is lacking even with the wack-a-mole Powerplay release. And most of the PvP comes down to who has the biggest ship. And ship acquisition is simply a grind/time invested approach.
I get that some people love the grind and maybe that is what they were trying to build. But farmville in space is not all that interesting.
I did my trip to the center of the galaxy, engaged in rare trading and ran missions and became allied with system factiions.
After that I wanted to seriously look into PvP. And the solo mode completely breaks having any large scale player organized conflict.
The game is about the grind. And with Power play, now you can pick a side and grind. And now outside the game groups can organize what system everyone should grind in.
I have gotten my moneys worth already, easily, and will continue to do so. Maybe no more than a few hours a month, but who cares, I can indulge and get my Elite fix whenever I want.
I'm 62 hours in The Witcher and I've completed about 1/3 of the story and discovered about 1/4 of things to explore. Paid for it less than what i've paid for Elite and i am not bored with the witcher at all. How is Your moneys worth already vs mine?
I have gotten my moneys worth already, easily, and will continue to do so. Maybe no more than a few hours a month, but who cares, I can indulge and get my Elite fix whenever I want.
I'm 62 hours in The Witcher and I've completed about 1/3 of the story and discovered about 1/4 of things to explore. Paid for it less than what i've paid for Elite and i am not bored with the witcher at all. How is Your moneys worth already vs mine?
It's not a a freakin' competition...
He feels like he got his worth, you feel like you got yours. That's it. He doesn't have to qualify how he feels about ED against how you happen to feel about about another unrelated game.
Originally posted by thundercles Right there with ya. Lasted about a week. Feels unfinished.
Spaceship Simulator 2015.
I quit after 3 days, pissed about the money i spent supporting this one. So many issues but when the players tried to let the devs know a lot of us started getting banned from the forums. I even remember some people here getting warnings or something for complaining about it when it "soft launched". the issues remain from what i hear. Oh well, Live/Learn.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Well, I loved Elite back on the commodore 64 in the 80s. In fact, still play it today.
I love multiplay and in this game I miss the multiplay option, most friends I know play coop or multiplay for pvp only.
Players who just want to earn money to get better ships and equipment use the singleplayer option.
So they divided the community.
Imho they should just force everyone to go multiplay and everyone just has to find a way around (forced) pvp.
And yes, unless you are a pvp freak and love trading the game gets boring when you enable hyperspace to the same type of outposts and space stations in every system.
That was my experience tbh.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Comments
Yaw is slow because otherwise everyone would be standing still and do turreting in space / in place. Its a lesson learned from early testing. It had nothing to do with any special control type. Would have made combat very static.
Have fun
A lot of other games including Star citzen and Star conflict have "fast" yaw and nobody stays still. So your explanation is plain BS !
EDIT: even devs said that is their decision and doesn't have to do with tureting.
I don't know what you mean by "slow yaw" ? I'm using a joystick with a twist grip and everything flies much the same as it would in any other flight sim I've played.
As for the complaints at the start of this thread some months ago, much of them have already been addressed but anyone that bought the game having done a bit of research should have known the game is an ongoing development project. If I get bored I just go play something else for a while. New stuff is being added all the time.
If this would have been a plane simluator then the model would be right.
If you think tureting is the key to win try Star Conflict where you can turret in space and see how long you survive to a fast ship.
The flight model is exactly what they were going for, ie Star Wars-like dogfighting. It works well with the ship design, the thruster placement and so on.
I've always felt having fast yaw gives a very FPS feeling to a game, where it becomes more about who can aim faster rather than position themselves better. It's something Star Citizen is going tthrough, the amount of guns, aiming and rotation speed tends to nullify most of the strategy.
>>>> Mike Evans *** Designer *** Frontier <<<<<<<<<<<<
Indeed, a request is just that. We don't have to do anything if we don't want to but that doesn't mean we didn't read and consider the request. Suffice to say a low yaw rate is a fundamental part of our games aesthetics and a corner stone to our flight model that we at frontier like the way it is. We're not changing it, for to do so would be to compromise our own vision for what Elite: Dangerous is and what it's going to be. I don't give a damn what all the other space games have done in the past, nor do I care that our yaw rates are apparently even slower than a plane's is (though every time I've tried doing a pure yaw turn in IL-2 I've stalled my plane before I got anything that even resembled a steady and fast turn rate). Fast yaw and pitch in a space game is a video game trope of the highest order along with banner arrows sliding around the screen and compasses telling you where to fly all the time. I'm almost certain that other developers just implement those features because they've been so prevalent rather than actually reassessing whether the game needed them or could be even better without them! We found for example that the compass that pointed you towards your target at all times made combat too easy to end in stalemate of circling. As soon as we tried removing it all of a sudden it was more exciting to fight someone because they could give you the slip whilst you weren't glancing at your sensors and even if you did pay attention to the sensors the difference in the way the information is presented can still mean you don't quite stay on the target's tail perfectly, again providing more opportunities for them to turn the tide of the battle.
Suffice to say we wanted Elite to feel like star wars in terms of how the ships move by banking/rolling and pitching through manoeuvres opposed to the yaw and pitch based FPS style movement most other space games offered (where roll plays little or no part). That limitation to having to do your main directional change manoeuvring by pitching makes the flight path taken to be more cinematic and means a skilled player can predict the manoeuvres of an opponent in advanced by observing their current roll position relative to themselves only. So long as they match the roll quickly enough they can always follow through the inevitable pitch manoeuvre effectively and maintain the chase. If the target could yaw or pitch effectively then it's much harder to assess what they're going to do as they're current roll position doesn't really matter any more.
Finally realism has played no part whatsoever in any of our design discussions about the flight model. We don't care what would be realistic as we only care what the game play experience is when flying these ships and so far we feel we're hitting the right notes for the majority of our audience.
>>>>
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=29623&page=9&p=609596#post609596
****If the target could yaw or pitch effectively then it's much harder to assess what they're going to do as they're current roll position doesn't really matter any more.****
----> For those unfamiliar with flight mechanics ... that is called "turreting". You have a preset flight direction and turn around quickly in place (shooting at a pursuer at your six). If you watched a Battlestar Galactica (new series) Viper fight (Starbuck flipping around, shooting at Scar), you know what i mean. That only works in space, where there is no air drag. Most space sim games go for the Star-Warsy feeling, which is essentially a World War I biplane dogfight feeling according to George Lucas. Everyone tries to get into the enemies "six" and shoot them down from a trailing position slightly below the chased plane. A true spaceflight fight is completely different and no fun. Frontier tried it in earlier Elite/Frontier games.
Have fun
Hi, 11 year vet of a "fast yaw" space MMORPG here...
The argument that yaw speed has anything to do with the depth of combat is bogus. It's a design choice, pure and simple.
So called "turreting" doesn't really exist in my opinion (there are actual turrets in the game I play, but that's not how the term is being used here). Having equal pitch and yaw torque means that there are more options in getting an opponent to expose a flank when in a close dogfight. It's the difference between moving a queen and moving a rook on a chessboard. It becomes about the contours of an opponent's spaceship, where their weapons are located, the firing arc of these weapons, and the weapon velocity.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a full Newtonian 6DoF design using equal pitch and yaw torque. Neither is there anything wrong with having a weakened yaw. It leads to a different UX, and not one has any more depth over the other, or if so it is far too early to disregard one method instead of the other. There is lots of experience to back up the argument that equal pitch and yaw torque works, and allows a variety of strategies and tactics to flourish.
It's important to note that ship velocity should have a considerable percentage of typical weapon velocities in such a game, to allow for pilot reactions (on the order of 50 - 500 ms). Some pilots appear to have such fast reaction times because they have been playing the game for so long they can predict the next move. It becomes learning by rote, similar to the Gun Kata.
The range at which these fights occur varies between extremely close, and very far. The tactics for each varies accordingly. This isn't theory; this has been my experience.
In my opinion, the weakened yaw in E:D is due to the inclusion of hitscan weapons (laser beams). A weapon with infinite velocity allows for no pilot reaction.
Have a nice day
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Elite is not an MMO, Maybe you should not have bought it in the first place without researching what the game is about. A 30 minute look at twitch would show you exactly what the game is about. I honestly love Elite and come back to it every time they update it (which is fairly often considering its not an mmo and IS considered a released title). Elite is not meant to be like EvE, or star citizen or any of those space mmo's. They had a very specific goal in mind when creating elite and i think they knocked it out of the park. If you don't enjoy it maybe your not playing it right or maybe like i said to begin with, its just not your kind of game and you probably just have researched more before buying it.
As you can see ignorance is not bliss.
Do you like lollipops? Suck it. Don't bite you greedy twit.
Also, it seems "turreting" is still possible, just turn off flight assist and have at it.
Its pretty clear that Elite wants to cultivate a PvE experience with small PvP skirmishes. Unfortunately the PvE is lacking even with the wack-a-mole Powerplay release. And most of the PvP comes down to who has the biggest ship. And ship acquisition is simply a grind/time invested approach.
I get that some people love the grind and maybe that is what they were trying to build. But farmville in space is not all that interesting.
I did my trip to the center of the galaxy, engaged in rare trading and ran missions and became allied with system factiions.
After that I wanted to seriously look into PvP. And the solo mode completely breaks having any large scale player organized conflict.
The game is about the grind. And with Power play, now you can pick a side and grind. And now outside the game groups can organize what system everyone should grind in.
I'm 62 hours in The Witcher and I've completed about 1/3 of the story and discovered about 1/4 of things to explore. Paid for it less than what i've paid for Elite and i am not bored with the witcher at all. How is Your moneys worth already vs mine?
It's not a a freakin' competition...
He feels like he got his worth, you feel like you got yours. That's it. He doesn't have to qualify how he feels about ED against how you happen to feel about about another unrelated game.
What a strange mindset some have
Spaceship Simulator 2015.
I quit after 3 days, pissed about the money i spent supporting this one. So many issues but when the players tried to let the devs know a lot of us started getting banned from the forums. I even remember some people here getting warnings or something for complaining about it when it "soft launched". the issues remain from what i hear. Oh well, Live/Learn.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
Well, I loved Elite back on the commodore 64 in the 80s. In fact, still play it today.
I love multiplay and in this game I miss the multiplay option, most friends I know play coop or multiplay for pvp only.
Players who just want to earn money to get better ships and equipment use the singleplayer option.
So they divided the community.
Imho they should just force everyone to go multiplay and everyone just has to find a way around (forced) pvp.
And yes, unless you are a pvp freak and love trading the game gets boring when you enable hyperspace to the same type of outposts and space stations in every system.
That was my experience tbh.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Looks like the developers gave up on finishing their original design and are now instead making it into an arena minigame.
a reasonable price
it sure wasnt worth the price i paid
i had more fun with goat simulator, nuff said