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General: The Daily Quest - Can B2P Revive the MMO Genre?

13

Comments

  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Member UncommonPosts: 759

    Like a few others have said.... I am unaware of the MMO genre needing to be revived. There has never been a time in the genre with so many diverse gaming options and so many people playing them. There is a small handful of the millions (even dare I guess billions) of people that play MMOs that are unhappy with any of the options. Sometimes they do tend to be the most vocal, but I do not see a genre in need of revival.

     

    That said I like the B2P marketing option, as well as the subscription option. I predict you will see more companies moving away from the F2P nickel and dime, make you bleed money option.

     


  • meonthissitemeonthissite Member UncommonPosts: 917

    Not when most of the B2P games have become Pay to Progress games no. They'll have to do ALOT better than immitating the freemium model stores if they want to compete. This Korean/Chinese grind fest can go as well!

     

    And yes the MMO genre needs revival not because the game content isn't good but because they've  completely screwed the pooch on the billing models out there. If they had paid more attention to what they were doing they'd have more players. Instead they've basically scared all of the players who have the money to spend back to World of Warcraft.

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

    Can SBFord or one of the other "B2P" advocates explain to me what the perceived difference is between B2P with Item Mall and a F2P game?

     

     

    B2P has an initial purchase, which will make people think twice about their account.  With a F2P account, you don't have to worry about the repercussions as much, since you could create multiple accounts.  B2P keeps the trolls at a minimum, and it also keeps gold spammers at a minimum, although they will still continue to hack people's accounts.  Multiple f2p accounts can hurt a game, just look at archeage.

    As for the Item Malls, it really depends on the company.  All models use different methods.  Just take WoW for an example.  It's B2P, subscription, shop, and f2p (up to 20).  Rift is f2p w/ shop and premium subscription service.  FFXIV is b2p, sub, cash shop (?).  GW2 is b2p, shop.

    Most of these sell convenience items, cosmetics, etc.  Subscription tiered models give convenience bonuses to xp, etc.  In WoW's case, you can even buy a level 90 character outright, and i believe AoC now sells high level characters.

    Your question isn't relevant, because you think a f2p item mall is somehow different than a b2p model or a subscription model, which it isn't.  Each one is different with different items.  Perhaps, you are thinking of item malls pre-2007, as found in asian mmo's such as perfect world where they sell p2w items.  Your concern of item malls is irrelevant.  B2P is about access to the game, not it's cash shops.

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever?  Different sure, but dead?  No way Jose.

    Why do you think there is more people playjng genre than ever?

     

    Western MMO, and especially MMORPG market seem to look otherwise.  

    Several companies that dealt mainly in MMORPGs underwent heavy restructurisations and scaling down,  few AAA MMORPG projects got cancelled,   few other MMO projects got retrofitted from MMO to MOBA or other type of online game in mid-developement (and most of them cancelled later on),   traffic on MMO sites seem down, many non-commercial MMO blogs shut down or retrofitted into general gaming blogs.

     

    Sure it was never better. 

     

    So a few things happen and you call the genre dying?  How about the millions that are still playing WOW.  How about ESO still releasing on the consoles.  How about ARR having millions of Registered Users and probably about 500k subs and is releasing an expansion soon.  How about Lineage still domniating in the EAST.  I could go on and on. 

    How the hell is that dying?  Just look at this site alone regarding MMOs being developed.  Dying my *****.  Dying to you because you don't like the direction it's going but Dying?  Oh please, Get Real.

    If you have a problem with word "dying" someone used, you will have to direct it to this someone else.

     

    In my opinion MMORPGs are in downward trend and for a good reasons.  So I don't think MMORPG genre will be out of this downward trend in foresable future.

     

     

     

    Please tell me these good reasons you're implying here.

    Basically players expectations risen faster than companies making MMORPGs could provide because of cost, technological or competition reasons.

    1. Too much players stopped to want to participate in very simple even primitive gameplay MMORPGs offers. Good example are quests.   Many players don't want to plat "go kill X" like quests anymore, but are not satisfied with Swtor / TSW like quests either because those feel like watered down single player experience.  Game companies are unable to provide something else.

     

    2. Too much players don't want to grind anymore and it is not economically feasible to produce so much content that there would be much less grind. (example - end game token grinds)

     

    3. RMT.  Some people don't want to play games that have RMT and game companies are unable to provide MMORPG without it.

    4. PVP - Players looking for PVP increasingly choose specialized PVP games with which MMORPGs cannot compete anymore.  Example - various types of MOBAs/lobby PVP titles for Arena PVP players and survival games for open world pvp.

     

    Those are just an examples written in casual way- there is much of it.  It would take a several pages long paper to just outline them.

     

    Sure there are still millions of people that don't mind all MMORPG issues that exist and are unsolved.  Same as there are still millions of people who play Farmville click-fest browser games.

    Which does not change a fact that both those type of games are in downward trend.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628


    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Foomerang I think good MMOs will revive the genre
    But there's the rub, what exactly do you mean by "good" MMO's, I suspect opinions will vary on this one.

     



    I'm not sure heh. I think some games could come along and jump start this genre a bit. I don't think it has to be by anyone's particular standards around here. Could be incorporating elements of other genres which compliment and open world environment. Could be console style open world games making the jump to mmorpg land.

    GtaV has made 2 billion dollars in very little time. It has online multiplayer. There's really only a dot or two left to connect before we see a major shift in mmo design to tap into the console style open world genre.

  • rodingorodingo Member RarePosts: 2,870
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever?  Different sure, but dead?  No way Jose.

    Because there are less MMO's releasing every year. Is there even one MMORPG coming out this year?

    LOL, you can't be for reals.  That's the reason? LMAO

    I am for "reals". What MMO is releasing this year?

    If there were very few MMOs to choose from (not to be mistaken with what YOU will choose) AND very few are slated to be released soon, then MAYBE you can claim the genre is dying.  However, the market is saturated currently.  The gold rush is almost over.  Things will just start to steady out and we will probably see some better games come out but at a slower pace  as a result of it.  The devs had a good 10-15 years to experiment with us players on what we like and don't like and how much money they can make off of us.  To assume they haven't learned anything and have given up trying to make a buck off of players/customers is to early to be said yet.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever?  Different sure, but dead?  No way Jose.

    Because there are less MMO's releasing every year. Is there even one MMORPG coming out this year?

    LOL, you can't be for reals.  That's the reason? LMAO

    I am for "reals". What MMO is releasing this year?

    There have been plenty of years with low release numbers, at least as far as western publishers go. Many major studios are just now polishing up the MMO's they've released in the last year or two. Big games take time and large budgets, how many "skyrim's or "GTA's" do we see release a year? I'm talking games with the amount of content those bring to the table? It's still February who knows what could possibly be announced this year?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever?  Different sure, but dead?  No way Jose.

    Because there are less MMO's releasing every year. Is there even one MMORPG coming out this year?

    LOL, you can't be for reals.  That's the reason? LMAO

    I am for "reals". What MMO is releasing this year?

    If there were very few MMOs to choose from (not to be mistaken with what YOU will choose) AND very few are slated to be released soon, then MAYBE you can claim the genre is dying.  However, the market is saturated currently.  The gold rush is almost over.  Things will just start to steady out and we will probably see some better games come out but at a slower pace  as a result of it.  The devs had a good 10-15 years to experiment with us players on what we like and don't like and how much money they can make off of us.  To assume they haven't learned anything and have given up trying to make a buck off of players/customers is to early to be said yet.

    From what I've seen the real boom died off around the time TOR, GW2 and a few others released. It really started settling down then, as most of the big games started development between 05-09 or so, at least those that have released since, considering how long those games stayed under the radar... it's really hard to tell what is to be from here on out. I say that because If they've learned anything from those games, it's barely in the idea stages at this point.

    I really wouldn't be surprised to see the common idea of MMORPG's going away, in the manner they exist anyway. The novelty of large numbers has worn thin, that's what made them special. Yet, RPers really operate within small groups, for that...those numbers are unneeded. Devs seem to be trying to bring the RPG experience into gaming, at least as it's known in table-top gaming, Bioware is just one example, as well as the new studio developing The Sword Coast. I would prefer that TBH. Leave the large open world to sim-like games, survival etc...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329
    Originally posted by Distopia

    I really wouldn't be surprised to see the common idea of MMORPG's going away, in the manner they exist anyway. The novelty of large numbers has worn thin, that's what made them special. Yet, RPers really operate within small groups, for that...those numbers are unneeded. Devs seem to be trying to bring the RPG experience into gaming, at least as it's known in table-top gaming, Bioware is just one example, as well as the new studio developing The Sword Coast. I would prefer that TBH. Leave the large open world to sim-like games, survival etc...

    Sorry for off-top, but

    "table-top like experience" & "Bioware"

     

    what?!

    Is there another Bioware out there I don't know of?  Because Dragon Age or Mass Effect really does not seem what you're describing.

  • greatskysgreatskys Member UncommonPosts: 451
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by greatskys

    Personally I like buy to play . Its the most honest model . You pay for something that has already been developed and you are not locked out of various features unlike free to play games ( which for the most part are more like very long trials ) . Also you pay for DLCs when they are developed rather than a monthly free to the promise of a patch that is in development .

     

    Ultimately anyone against this model is on pretty thin ice because I would imagine they have played many single player games which use the exact same model and I imagine without any problem with it at all .

    That would be true, if MMOs B2P model would not use any kind of microtransactions, and would have ONLY big DLCs or expansions.

    So your point is invalid.

    Not really because the micro transactions you are talking about are only for cosmetic items . If they impacted game play you would have a point but they don't so its your point that is invalid . 

     

    I would have thought it was common sense . Mind you that is something many gamers lack .

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by Distopia

    I really wouldn't be surprised to see the common idea of MMORPG's going away, in the manner they exist anyway. The novelty of large numbers has worn thin, that's what made them special. Yet, RPers really operate within small groups, for that...those numbers are unneeded. Devs seem to be trying to bring the RPG experience into gaming, at least as it's known in table-top gaming, Bioware is just one example, as well as the new studio developing The Sword Coast. I would prefer that TBH. Leave the large open world to sim-like games, survival etc...

    Sorry for off-top, but

    "table-top like experience" & "Bioware"

     

    what?!

    Is there another Bioware out there I don't know of?  Because Dragon Age or Mass Effect really does not seem what you're describing.

    I was referring to the game they are currently making.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by Distopia

    I really wouldn't be surprised to see the common idea of MMORPG's going away, in the manner they exist anyway. The novelty of large numbers has worn thin, that's what made them special. Yet, RPers really operate within small groups, for that...those numbers are unneeded. Devs seem to be trying to bring the RPG experience into gaming, at least as it's known in table-top gaming, Bioware is just one example, as well as the new studio developing The Sword Coast. I would prefer that TBH. Leave the large open world to sim-like games, survival etc...

    Sorry for off-top, but

    "table-top like experience" & "Bioware"

     

    what?!

    Is there another Bioware out there I don't know of?  Because Dragon Age or Mass Effect really does not seem what you're describing.

    I was referring to the game they are currently making.

    Would be cool if you would be more specific and not as vague.

    Anyway they have just cancelled Shadow Realms if that "game they are currently making" you're talking about.

  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318
    The genre is flagging because the players aren't being listened to and less and less is being offered in games than ever before, while the cost of the games go up and up, not because of the payment method. 
     
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    B2P? 

     

    No. No revenue model can revive the genre, only great games can.

     

    B2P is just F2P with an entry cost to enter the mall... It's an overhyped flawed bandwagon mentality of a revenue model. as anti-gamer as F2P ever was. More so even.

     

     

  • BattlerockBattlerock Member CommonPosts: 1,393

    I for one have been shaped from a culture perspective. I have always been dead set against cash shops, however my perspective has changed, I now think it is fair to have them in the games.

     

    These cash shops must be respectable though, they must be non immersion breaking, non intrusive, they must not have any impact on the game really. 

     

    #2 below is from Crowfall's FAQ page. Barring what vip membership tickets actually means, the bullet points here are cash shop items that I feel enable this cash shop to be what I could term as respectable. keyword "Could"

     

    I say could because - I do not know what VIP tickets will enable - This could affect gameplay

     

    Population of Kingdoms - what are the mechanics of a Kingdom? This could affect gameplay, but we will see.

     

    And here is the real kicker - Cosmetic - items that do not affect gameplay

     

    Why is that a kicker? Well because it says... "Do not affect gameplay" under the Cosmetics bullet point only.

     

    I would indefinitely call this a respectable shop, if "Do not affect gameplay" had it's own bullet point, the bullet point would look like this.

     

     

    Can I spend real world currency to buy in game items or currency?

     

    - Answer: No - there is nothing that will be able to be purchased in the cash shop that could or will affect gameplay

     

    Instead this is what the question and bullet points look like. 

     

    *****************************************************************************************************

    2. Can I spend real world currency buy in-game items or currency?

    No. The only things that you can buy from ArtCraft:

    - VIP membership tickets

    - Cosmetic items that do not affect gameplay

    - Account level services (such as increasing your number of character slots, or the size and population caps of your personal kingdom).

    ********************************************************************************************************

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by Distopia

    I really wouldn't be surprised to see the common idea of MMORPG's going away, in the manner they exist anyway. The novelty of large numbers has worn thin, that's what made them special. Yet, RPers really operate within small groups, for that...those numbers are unneeded. Devs seem to be trying to bring the RPG experience into gaming, at least as it's known in table-top gaming, Bioware is just one example, as well as the new studio developing The Sword Coast. I would prefer that TBH. Leave the large open world to sim-like games, survival etc...

    Sorry for off-top, but

    "table-top like experience" & "Bioware"

     

    what?!

    Is there another Bioware out there I don't know of?  Because Dragon Age or Mass Effect really does not seem what you're describing.

    I was referring to the game they are currently making.

    Would be cool if you would be more specific and not as vague.

    Anyway they have just cancelled Shadow Realms if that "game they are currently making" you're talking about.

    Yeah that was it... My bad forgot what it was called...That's too bad, although I am much more interested in the ideas The Sword Coast may bring to the table, As well as the subject matter.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by Distopia

    I really wouldn't be surprised to see the common idea of MMORPG's going away, in the manner they exist anyway. The novelty of large numbers has worn thin, that's what made them special. Yet, RPers really operate within small groups, for that...those numbers are unneeded. Devs seem to be trying to bring the RPG experience into gaming, at least as it's known in table-top gaming, Bioware is just one example, as well as the new studio developing The Sword Coast. I would prefer that TBH. Leave the large open world to sim-like games, survival etc...

    Sorry for off-top, but

    "table-top like experience" & "Bioware"

     

    what?!

    Is there another Bioware out there I don't know of?  Because Dragon Age or Mass Effect really does not seem what you're describing.

    I was referring to the game they are currently making.

    Would be cool if you would be more specific and not as vague.

    Anyway they have just cancelled Shadow Realms if that "game they are currently making" you're talking about.

    Yeah that was it... My bad forgot what it was called...That's too bad, although I am much more interested in the ideas The Sword Coast may bring to the table, As well as the subject matter.

    Well role-playing experience for smaller number of people.  NWN1 multiplayer did that very well.  (NWN Oniine is nothing like it.  diffrent kind of game).

    It was not an MMORPG, but it did offer great stuff for creating role-play experience.

    So various project like this may start to appear and they may be great fun and great place for RPG players and roleplayers.

    Those kind of games and ideas were and still are already discussed on rpg forums&webistes and on rpg parts of general gaming websites since forever, which makes sense as they are not MMOs.  

     

    Large numbers and virtual worlds.  They are still great idea, but an idea that hit a wall because of technical and budget limitations and until those long-standing problems (AI, content creation, RMT, cheating, etc)  are solved(which won't be anytime soon) then both MMORPG and sites like MMORPG.com  will get gradually less and less players/visitors.

  • delta9delta9 Member UncommonPosts: 358

    what could revive the genre is not what payment model used but the game itself - until developers start to really innovate in the MMO genre newly released "AAA" titles will fail at being sub, then either morph to b2p or f2p once they have milked all they can first - then its full steam ahead with cashshop fluff which people lap up in their droves

     

    Real innovation to the genre will bring the money in but all the big companies are so scared to try to break away from the "biggest mmo" mould they force down our throats

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

    Can SBFord or one of the other "B2P" advocates explain to me what the perceived difference is between B2P with Item Mall and a F2P game?

     

    B2P has an initial purchase, which will make people think twice about their account.  With a F2P account, you don't have to worry about the repercussions as much, since you could create multiple accounts.  B2P keeps the trolls at a minimum, and it also keeps gold spammers at a minimum, although they will still continue to hack people's accounts.  Multiple f2p accounts can hurt a game, just look at archeage.

    As for the Item Malls, it really depends on the company.  All models use different methods.  Just take WoW for an example.  It's B2P, subscription, shop, and f2p (up to 20).  Rift is f2p w/ shop and premium subscription service.  FFXIV is b2p, sub, cash shop (?).  GW2 is b2p, shop.

    Most of these sell convenience items, cosmetics, etc.  Subscription tiered models give convenience bonuses to xp, etc.  In WoW's case, you can even buy a level 90 character outright, and i believe AoC now sells high level characters.

    Your question isn't relevant, because you think a f2p item mall is somehow different than a b2p model or a subscription model, which it isn't.  Each one is different with different items.  Perhaps, you are thinking of item malls pre-2007, as found in asian mmo's such as perfect world where they sell p2w items.  Your concern of item malls is irrelevant.  B2P is about access to the game, not it's cash shops.

     

    Observer.... now there's a great name for you!  However, I'm wondering what you're observing, because it surely isn't the posts in this thread and definitely not any of the posting that has happened the entire time you've been here, Observer. Instead of pretending you know what someone thinks, try just reading their posts. In this particular case, you'd see how silly that assessment was.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • zzaxzzax Member UncommonPosts: 324
    B2P is basically F2P with up-front cost (box). No, it wont revive the genre.
  • ironsquidironsquid Member Posts: 4
    To revive MMO genre we need changes in ways these games are played not changes in ways they're monetized. Improvements in making money don't always translate to improvements in gameplay tough it's certainly helpful to have more cash to develop your game.
  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977

    At this juncture, the only thing that will revive the genre is...

    an MMO with horses in it and players equipped only with sticks...

     

  • SentimeSentime Member UncommonPosts: 270
    Make a good game and the method of payment doesn't matter.
  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
     
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kazuhiro
    I still look at "Buy to play" as just "Free to play" with an extra 50-60$ box price. Because that is exactly what it is.

     

    Spot on. image

    That's exactly how I view it, or you could call it a Subscription game with an optional sub or cash shop, not really seeing the nuances here.

    Just can see any change in payment model that will "revive" the MMORPG genre....  going to take some bigger innovation than that I think,.

     

    Agreed.  Unless the game commits to never selling a single item in the cash shop, B2P is demanding a quarter up front, then nickel and dime-ing you any way they can on the backend.

    image
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