Like I said WoW and FFXIV have cash shops. EVE has PLEX to supplement their revenue. They aren't P2P. They're hybrid with mandatory subs. SquareEnix isn't beholden to anyone else and can run their IPs how they want. They can accept lower potential revenue to present the PR they want. FFXI and DAoC are in maintenance mode and aren't worth the investment to upgrade their infrastructure. They have enough revenue to keep their doors open and provide anemic lackluster updates.
If a game company wants to succeed now, outside of small niche titles with low expectations, they need a hybrid approach at the very least. Note the new Crowfall is being advertised as B2P not P2P-sub locked.
I anticipated someone taking that angle.
Couple things with that.
1. Can you cite references where each of those developers specifically states themselves that a cash shop was absolutely necessary, or that without the cash shop sales, they wouldn't be able to swing it? I see this statement a lot, but as far as I can tell, it's all unfounded, because no one's ever come forward with actual proof that it's the case at all.
For all we know, it's just as easy a scenario to imagine that they added a cash shop because... why the hell not? If Blizzard can sell millions of shiny horses for $25, get a ton of extra money on top of their monthly subs and game sales, and get away with it.... why wouldn't they? I don't agree with that attitude, it's way too cynical for my liking, and I hate double-dipping... but I have to acknowledge that it's a very real possibility, every bit as conceivable as Blizzard needing a Cash Shop to remain successful. Actually, in Blizzard's case, I find it easier to believe they did it "because they could". But again, that's my hunch.. I can't say what their actual reasons were, because I don't know.
In the case of FFXIV, it was explained that they added a Cash Shop because it was a very popular request from players. Nothing to do with them "needing the extra revenue to keep XIV afloat". XIV had already well exceeded their expectations and was doing better than they'd thought it would at that point, so they weren't hurting. And again, if players are telling you "Hey, please add a cash shop so we can give you more money"... why wouldn't they oblige?
Any claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, so... without actual proof that any of those companies needed a Cash Shop, or needed Plex to survive, then I have to regard the claim as conjecture. It could just as well have been added to bring in some extra income, because they saw they could get away with it.
2. None of those games' cash shops are acting as their primary revenue source. Subscriptions are. WoW and FFXIV are not surviving on the Cash Shops. Subs are the primary, consistent source of income. Cash Shop sales bring in extra; but they're not the bread and butter, as they would be in a true F2P game. It's also why their cash shop items can remain very tame and only for looks; there's no pressure where they have to sell more cash shop items to survive.
So, again, while it seems simple and self-evident to say "well, they have cash shops"... that isn't really saying squat about what kind of shape the games would be in without them, or their ability to survive on Subs alone. It's not that cut-and-dry.
I'm totally there with you. I don't want to buy a mount for $20. I want to kill a boss riding it and loot it. I don't want to loot some sword that looks like a rusty piece of junk on purpose to drive me to the cash shop to buy the cool lightning effect. I want quests in the game to get these items. They have value for a reason and all cosmetics are is Pay2LookCool instead of playing the game to get the items you pay the game to get the items.
It just feels so virtual shopping mall to me, I really hate putting up with it. Every time I think they could have put that in the game as a drop or quest not a credit card swipe.
If you were a CEO of a mmorpg dev studio and you were not able to maintain profitability with your game with a P2P model - and you wanted to keep your game alive and your employees getting a steady paycheck - what would you do?
Too many variables. I could be the CEO of a MMORPG that had $200 million budget who only cared about profits or $1 million kick starter that promised to not have a cash shop. Starting with the assumption that the game is not profitable makes this a pretty loaded question. Why isn't the game profitable? Why can other games be running along fine on P2P or B2P and not mine? The quality of the game, game play mechanics, funding, staff, talent, scope... way too many variables for me to respond more accurately.
Just to be clear if I was the CEO I would do everything in my power to never have a cash shop down to running the servers left at my home for free. It's the principal involved with compromising the games integrity by just selling everything with credit card swipes.
After reading the thread more. Pretty much everything Pratt2112 said I would quote and agree with as well.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Have you ever tried to find the FFXIV cash shop? It's the most well-hidden cash shop in the history of online games. It's almost as if they don't want you to use it.
Eh, if it keeps the game free (or at least non-sub model) for non-paying players then I don't see anything wrong with it. Games like GW2 have a few cosmetic and "fun" items in the cash shop, but also many more as unlockables for doing various things in game. I understand most games are worse and regulate most of the really neat costumes, mounts, etc to cash shops where GW2 at least has a good balance going for it.
Now the double dipping with things like sub models AND cash shops has to stop. I feel like if I'm paying a monthly fee, I've earned a right to have nothing in the game put into a cash shop aside from maybe non-gameplay effecting services like a name change or server transfer.
1. pro-P2P gamers - the people who prefer to pay and want to actively support the developers - as the ones who don't want to see them survive?
2. And so on. These games are all doing well enough with their subscription bases to keep going, to keep developing, to keep adding content and supporting the game. P2P is working just fine for them... your implications otherwise notwithstanding.
3) To append #1... Like any other product or service... a MMORPG succeeds or fails based on its perceived quality to its intended market. Period.
1. What pro-P2P gamers want isn't exactly relevant is it? If BMW started selling their best cars for $500, I could support that and want them to remain in business. But the reality is it isn't a sustainable business model. They'll go out of business selling cars that way. Pro-P2P gamers want their companies to remain in business, but the reality is that business model isn't sustainable.
2. A handful of games do make it work. You've probably listed the majority of them, with most other MMORPGs being F2P. Perhaps more importantly, those games which switched to F2P all reported higher overall revenue which means that the subscription model is pretty clearly worse at supporting developers. Is it good enough to subsist on? Sure, for a handful of games.
But that leads right to my point with the other post: gamers are explicitly asking these devs to make less money for them.
3. Nobody said quality didn't matter. It absolutely does. But at any given quality, one business model works better. And gamers are saying "Could you intentionally use the worse model? Thanks!"
None of which implies that every company on the market is going to use the extra revenue responsibly (to improve the game by an extra amount, relative to the extra income,) but it's really the typical starving artist problem where people don't want to pay for art. If it's bad art, that's one thing, but if it's good art then severe haggling just drives more businesses and games to shut down than really deserve it.
Certainly I'm biased on this subject. I work in the industry (not MMORPGs, but other F2P genres.) But gamers are biased too, so I'm acting as counter-point to that bias. The simple reality is that subscription games are consistently failing to get enough subscriptions to survive that way, and any gamer asking games to continue to use that old failing model is asking those companies to take on a lot of risk and probably fail. Almost none of those gamers realize that's what they're asking for (they're not deliberately asking companies to make suicidal mistakes because they want those companies to commit suicide.) But anyone who's watched the MMORPG market for a significant length of time has to have some sense that that's what's really happening.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Like I said WoW and FFXIV have cash shops. EVE has PLEX to supplement their revenue. They aren't P2P. They're hybrid with mandatory subs. SquareEnix isn't beholden to anyone else and can run their IPs how they want. They can accept lower potential revenue to present the PR they want. FFXI and DAoC are in maintenance mode and aren't worth the investment to upgrade their infrastructure. They have enough revenue to keep their doors open and provide anemic lackluster updates.
If a game company wants to succeed now, outside of small niche titles with low expectations, they need a hybrid approach at the very least. Note the new Crowfall is being advertised as B2P not P2P-sub locked.
I anticipated someone taking that angle.
Couple things with that.
1. Can you cite references where each of those developers specifically states themselves that a cash shop was absolutely necessary, or that without the cash shop sales, they wouldn't be able to swing it? I see this statement a lot, but as far as I can tell, it's all unfounded, because no one's ever come forward with actual proof that it's the case at all.
I doubt anyone can cite a reference to someone saying that because it's pretty much a given if you're in this business. Actually, if someone did say "Hey, do you think we should offer premium services or items above the basic sub cost?" I think the rest of the department would be wondering why someone with so little knowledge of the market or even basic business management is on their team. They'd probably wonder if the idiot ever had a hobby in his life.
I'm willing to bet the answer is no one's got a quote for you. Over a decade after additional services entered the NA MMO market (they've been around since at least 2003, if not before) there really isn't anyone at the table in corporation-level virtual goods discussions saying "hmmm... what's anyone's thoughts on leaving money on the table? I mean, even if they want to spend it, does that reaaaaally mean we should take it?"
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Scambug Payment model is completely irrelevant.
...
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Flyte27 This all comes back to games today being only about progression and gaining items. This was originally just something to make you feel like you were progressing in games. Now it is the only purpose in game.
nah ... EQ is basically a diku MUD with nothing but progression in the game .... and down-time to chat. So the "game" part is all progression.
Plus, if people like progression game (given the big numbers in D1, D2 and D3, i say they do), what is the problem?
I'm totally there with you. I don't want to buy a mount for $20. I want to kill a boss riding it and loot it. I don't want to loot some sword that looks like a rusty piece of junk on purpose to drive me to the cash shop to buy the cool lightning effect. I want quests in the game to get these items. They have value for a reason and all cosmetics are is Pay2LookCool instead of playing the game to get the items you pay the game to get the items.
It just feels so virtual shopping mall to me, I really hate putting up with it. Every time I think they could have put that in the game as a drop or quest not a credit card swipe.
If you were a CEO of a mmorpg dev studio and you were not able to maintain profitability with your game with a P2P model - and you wanted to keep your game alive and your employees getting a steady paycheck - what would you do?
Make a better game?
It can be done. I've played more Skyrim in the past year than I have spent in any one particular MMORPG.
Good point. Skyrim's servers seem to maintain 24/7 uptime, and their GMs are some of the best in the industry. How are they on delivering expansions for it? Monthly? Once a year? They are expanding the game, right? Whatever the case, I hear their engine handles PVP battles of 100+ players flawlessly.
Because that's all that matters when it comes to quality game design. Once you have all that ironed out, the rest of it is a cakewalk. Don't really need a great game once you have the server infrastructure in place.
Are you being consistently obtuse for a reason or do you come from a realm where money grows on trees?
No, I think it's just you.
Idunno, maybe it is me. I thought it was pretty obvious. A sarcastic response to a sarcastic response.
While this probably started out as a way to get more investment out of the artists talents with an 'agile' design flow it ultimately has become the business model.
Make it fast, make it cheap, get as many bodies on top of it on Day 0. Once the title has failed move on to the next fad. Fifty Shades of Grey MMO annnnd GO! This model will eventually fall on it's ass but I foresee a horrible train wreck of trash coming out while investors slowly abandon this venture entirely at some point. Then maybe we can get production back on track.
But first we have to endure paying for character features, boob sliders, sword of doom, and bag of a million slots first -- and whatever else they can experiment with. Money is money.
There was a time when you had to at least buy the game first. Subscriptions were an odd ball idea but MMOs went with it. I mean after all it was a hosted service and made business sense. 50 cents a day is reasonable for most people.
But now, no, just build it and they will come. Throw the most epic house party with all the fluff, glow sticks, and overpriced drinks possible.
Originally posted by GReYVee While this probably started out as a way to get more investment out of the artists talents with an 'agile' design flow it ultimately has become the business model. Make it fast, make it cheap, get as many bodies on top of it on Day 0. Once the title has failed move on to the next fad. Fifty Shades of Grey MMO annnnd GO! This model will eventually fall on it's ass but I foresee a horrible train wreck of trash coming out while investors slowly abandon this venture entirely at some point. Then maybe we can get production back on track.But first we have to endure paying for character features, boob sliders, sword of doom, and bag of a million slots first -- and whatever else they can experiment with. Money is money.There was a time when you had to at least buy the game first. Subscriptions were an odd ball idea but MMOs went with it. I mean after all it was a hosted service and made business sense. 50 cents a day is reasonable for most people.But now, no, just build it and they will come. Throw the most epic house party with all the fluff, glow sticks, and overpriced drinks possible.UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS wooooo!PS abit drunk and I have turned my rant dial to 9
Originally posted by Axehilt Gamers: "It looks like you're trying to make enough money to survive as a company. I dislike that. You should stop that. Instead, use the payment model that all those MMORPGs used who went out of business! I liked that better. Gosh, I wonder what happened to all those MMORPGs anyway?"
I'm not a "gamer", but I definitely want companies to make a profit. How much profit, in my mind, is my point of contention.
As for "where those old games went", your logic is about as sound as thinking that because Monday you ate bread and Friday was diagnosed with cancer, that bread must be the reason for your cancer. It could not be any of the other thousands of things in your life that may have contributed. Cause may equal effect, but make sure you look at more then just one possibility.
Let's try to expand that process a little but: These old MMOs could be outdated and/or not to the liking of new players and/or changed in the core gameplay to entice new players to try it out (but they rarely do) and/or cash shops introduced to try to lessen the bleeding.
The subscription model today does not work. 1) Too many players refuse to pay for their entertainment. 2) Games are not "worth" the subscription anymore (my opinion). 3) Subscriptions place a limit on the amount the coveted "whales" can spend. 4) So many MMOs today that players sticking to one or two or three is nigh impossible for players today.
If I wanted to make an MMO to make LOTS of money, I would load it up with cash shop items. If I wanted to make a "good" MMO (my opinion), I would create a world where players want to spend time and money every month for years on end, creating a community with time spent in the game.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Patrol: oh you want these people to starve. Hellooooo! Inflation! This isn't ten years ago. How do you expect these games to survive?! You need to step outside and get a dose of reality. If you had your way, we wouldn't have any games at all. Do you even economy? Stop crying. What do you expect them to do? Let's all just stop everything and bow down to your demands. God you're selfish!
You have to monetize in some way. Subscription is tough these days. The only games that do well on subscription are those which have been around for ages and have an old loyal fanbase. Every other subscription game is free to play a year later. Free to Play or Buy to Play needs to monetize in some way and cosmetics are the lesser evil.
Originally posted by JC-Smith You have to monetize in some way. Subscription is tough these days. The only games that do well on subscription are those which have been around for ages and have an old loyal fanbase. Every other subscription game is free to play a year later. Free to Play or Buy to Play needs to monetize in some way and cosmetics are the lesser evil.
Subs as a "paywall" are fine, and for the most part keeps the tourists and people with no vested interest in the game at least mildly at bay.
The issue with F2P, especially for a niche type game you end up with botters, spammers, along with the rest of the chaff that completely ruins the immersion of others.
I know TR is an ambitious project and I am a early adopter/supporter/donator of the concept (even if the game fails, games being made like this are a good thing).
Trying to be everything to everyone by opening up the flood gates to anyone and everyone, especially in this day and age of "fast food gamers" with the attention span of a flea on crystal meth, you either have to really focus down on your niche market and listen to them or make the game ultra simplified.
I consider myself a vet of mmo's even though I'm only 26 and started playing around 15 so at least 10 years! I personally don't mind cosmetic items and boosters for exp. in the shop. I never ever really buy any of this crap but will on occasion support the development team aside from just playing. I would rather a game be sub or b2p only and I could support them in that way but things are changing... I guess I'm just a little sad, because although I still have a lot of mmorpg/mmo games ahead of me and years to play them I still feel a sense of being lost in a world where marketing and money is taking over. I just miss subbing or buying and having ALL THOSE items available for you to achieve in a more practical manner. I miss that feeling and really, I'm done supporting even with small transactions and that's just because the older style worked perfect for my friends and I. I just don't want the final product of mmo evolution to be where it's currently at. Cheers everyone!
I don't like cash shops and I do think they take away from immersion, but the cosmetic stuff isn't too bad as long as the looks you get from the cosmetic items are completely different from any of the items you can get from playing the game.
Originally posted by JC-Smith You have to monetize in some way. Subscription is tough these days. The only games that do well on subscription are those which have been around for ages and have an old loyal fanbase. Every other subscription game is free to play a year later. Free to Play or Buy to Play needs to monetize in some way and cosmetics are the lesser evil.
Hey JC! I do agree to an extent it is a lesser evil. But I also think we are a victim of circumstance much more than a "future of mmorpgs". The type of content customers are expecting in an mmo currently is quite costly. While at the same time, mobile games are conditioning people to expect quick entertainment for little to no money. This leaves devs like you in a position currently which forces you to make choices that in a previous era, was a non issue.
But I do feel this is only temporary, not done new standard from here on out. Development costs will change, customer expectations will as well.
It's a hard environment to thrive in these days and I have the utmost respect for you and your team in your quest to see your vision become reality.
Selling cosmetic items was a first step to the sorry state we are in now. Rather like a gateway drug it has led to gamers being addicted to the P2W cash shop that is now the norm.
In of itself cosmetic items are not an issue, but they not only made buying items normal for players, they created a signpost for gaming companies. A signpost that said "Make money here". So that's the route they went down, and now we have casino-play as the latest iteration of the cash shop brand. I say latest because if you have any sense you know there is worse to come.
P2P MMOs are nearly dead, B2P MMOs are the fall back position. But there is only one king in the world of MMOs and its name is cash shop, P2P/B2P/F2P it does not matter, cash shop is king.
And I would like to just point out here... When posters such as Axehilt (and a few others) and Myselfare coming to agreements on a subject such as this... It becomes time to pay attention to what WE are stating. As WE usually disagree in damn nearly every single aspect of MMORPG subjects, particularly when it comes to designing and features needed in MMORPGs.
When two people who normally disagree happen to agree on a subject that means they warrant the attention of others? Interesting. Illogical, but interesting.
I'm glad I saw this, even though I usually skip right over your posts. Once you play the insider "I know things. I can't tell you these things, or how I know these things, or verify that I'm a person that may know these things.. but take my word for it!" card on a board.. yeah, credibility is gone. Most people who saw that have already written you off.
You're deluded my friend. If an MMORPG wants to succeed it needs to be a good source of lasting entertainment, period. Payment model is completely irrelevant. Games generally go free to play because they're terrible and would otherwise have zero players, not because F2P is the superior model that everyone has wet dreams about.
Actually, the game companies DO have wet dreams about the F2P business model. There was at least 1 article that I have seen that stated at least one of SOE's MMORPGs made 2.5x the income after going F2P, when compared to the old monthly subscription. I think I would have a wet dream too if I could find a way to do that with my own income, and I know damn well I make no where near as much as the numbers they were dealing with.
But beyond that, and unfortunately, the old days of subscriptions are dead. You do remember back over a decade ago, when subs were $10-$15 per month right? Even if those exact sub prices could hold the same population numbers today as they did then, let us look at this.
1. There are F2P games that people are going to play (loses sub numbers to f2p games)...
2. Costs for initially producing a game have gone up...
3. Costs for maintaining a game have gone up...
4. Costs for security and the Black Market itself have gone up...
5. Today you would need to charge at least $30 per month... population further decreased...
downward spiral...
f2p? b2p? where is this going?
My "everyone" included the players. Of course studios love F2P, they can release a steaming pile of crap and make millions a day through cash shop sales. As a business man who wouldn't have wet dreams about it ? As a gamer and a consumer though, just no.
Free to play is the main reason MMOs have been getting worse over the years. Studios can have the same revenue with an inferior product. They can make the same amount of money as with older games but with half the effort. It's pretty obvious F2P and cash shops are the worste thing that ever happened to the genre.
Also you guys go on and on about how the circumstances have changed and how P2P isn't viable anymore due to increased costs and what not, yet the big fat elephant in the room is still there staring at you: WoW. It's doing fine with subs and only added a cash shop out of greed, not necessity. Other much smaller games like Darkfall also manage to stay aflote with the sub model so your points are just not valid.
Comments
I anticipated someone taking that angle.
Couple things with that.
1. Can you cite references where each of those developers specifically states themselves that a cash shop was absolutely necessary, or that without the cash shop sales, they wouldn't be able to swing it? I see this statement a lot, but as far as I can tell, it's all unfounded, because no one's ever come forward with actual proof that it's the case at all.
For all we know, it's just as easy a scenario to imagine that they added a cash shop because... why the hell not? If Blizzard can sell millions of shiny horses for $25, get a ton of extra money on top of their monthly subs and game sales, and get away with it.... why wouldn't they? I don't agree with that attitude, it's way too cynical for my liking, and I hate double-dipping... but I have to acknowledge that it's a very real possibility, every bit as conceivable as Blizzard needing a Cash Shop to remain successful. Actually, in Blizzard's case, I find it easier to believe they did it "because they could". But again, that's my hunch.. I can't say what their actual reasons were, because I don't know.
In the case of FFXIV, it was explained that they added a Cash Shop because it was a very popular request from players. Nothing to do with them "needing the extra revenue to keep XIV afloat". XIV had already well exceeded their expectations and was doing better than they'd thought it would at that point, so they weren't hurting. And again, if players are telling you "Hey, please add a cash shop so we can give you more money"... why wouldn't they oblige?
Any claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, so... without actual proof that any of those companies needed a Cash Shop, or needed Plex to survive, then I have to regard the claim as conjecture. It could just as well have been added to bring in some extra income, because they saw they could get away with it.
2. None of those games' cash shops are acting as their primary revenue source. Subscriptions are. WoW and FFXIV are not surviving on the Cash Shops. Subs are the primary, consistent source of income. Cash Shop sales bring in extra; but they're not the bread and butter, as they would be in a true F2P game. It's also why their cash shop items can remain very tame and only for looks; there's no pressure where they have to sell more cash shop items to survive.
So, again, while it seems simple and self-evident to say "well, they have cash shops"... that isn't really saying squat about what kind of shape the games would be in without them, or their ability to survive on Subs alone. It's not that cut-and-dry.
Too many variables. I could be the CEO of a MMORPG that had $200 million budget who only cared about profits or $1 million kick starter that promised to not have a cash shop. Starting with the assumption that the game is not profitable makes this a pretty loaded question. Why isn't the game profitable? Why can other games be running along fine on P2P or B2P and not mine? The quality of the game, game play mechanics, funding, staff, talent, scope... way too many variables for me to respond more accurately.
Just to be clear if I was the CEO I would do everything in my power to never have a cash shop down to running the servers left at my home for free. It's the principal involved with compromising the games integrity by just selling everything with credit card swipes.
After reading the thread more. Pretty much everything Pratt2112 said I would quote and agree with as well.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Have you ever tried to find the FFXIV cash shop? It's the most well-hidden cash shop in the history of online games. It's almost as if they don't want you to use it.
That's how you build a cash shop! gg Square. :-)
Eh, if it keeps the game free (or at least non-sub model) for non-paying players then I don't see anything wrong with it. Games like GW2 have a few cosmetic and "fun" items in the cash shop, but also many more as unlockables for doing various things in game. I understand most games are worse and regulate most of the really neat costumes, mounts, etc to cash shops where GW2 at least has a good balance going for it.
Now the double dipping with things like sub models AND cash shops has to stop. I feel like if I'm paying a monthly fee, I've earned a right to have nothing in the game put into a cash shop aside from maybe non-gameplay effecting services like a name change or server transfer.
1. What pro-P2P gamers want isn't exactly relevant is it? If BMW started selling their best cars for $500, I could support that and want them to remain in business. But the reality is it isn't a sustainable business model. They'll go out of business selling cars that way. Pro-P2P gamers want their companies to remain in business, but the reality is that business model isn't sustainable.
2. A handful of games do make it work. You've probably listed the majority of them, with most other MMORPGs being F2P. Perhaps more importantly, those games which switched to F2P all reported higher overall revenue which means that the subscription model is pretty clearly worse at supporting developers. Is it good enough to subsist on? Sure, for a handful of games.
But that leads right to my point with the other post: gamers are explicitly asking these devs to make less money for them.
3. Nobody said quality didn't matter. It absolutely does. But at any given quality, one business model works better. And gamers are saying "Could you intentionally use the worse model? Thanks!"
None of which implies that every company on the market is going to use the extra revenue responsibly (to improve the game by an extra amount, relative to the extra income,) but it's really the typical starving artist problem where people don't want to pay for art. If it's bad art, that's one thing, but if it's good art then severe haggling just drives more businesses and games to shut down than really deserve it.
Certainly I'm biased on this subject. I work in the industry (not MMORPGs, but other F2P genres.) But gamers are biased too, so I'm acting as counter-point to that bias. The simple reality is that subscription games are consistently failing to get enough subscriptions to survive that way, and any gamer asking games to continue to use that old failing model is asking those companies to take on a lot of risk and probably fail. Almost none of those gamers realize that's what they're asking for (they're not deliberately asking companies to make suicidal mistakes because they want those companies to commit suicide.) But anyone who's watched the MMORPG market for a significant length of time has to have some sense that that's what's really happening.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I doubt anyone can cite a reference to someone saying that because it's pretty much a given if you're in this business. Actually, if someone did say "Hey, do you think we should offer premium services or items above the basic sub cost?" I think the rest of the department would be wondering why someone with so little knowledge of the market or even basic business management is on their team. They'd probably wonder if the idiot ever had a hobby in his life.
I'm willing to bet the answer is no one's got a quote for you. Over a decade after additional services entered the NA MMO market (they've been around since at least 2003, if not before) there really isn't anyone at the table in corporation-level virtual goods discussions saying "hmmm... what's anyone's thoughts on leaving money on the table? I mean, even if they want to spend it, does that reaaaaally mean we should take it?"
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
...
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
nah ... EQ is basically a diku MUD with nothing but progression in the game .... and down-time to chat. So the "game" part is all progression.
Plus, if people like progression game (given the big numbers in D1, D2 and D3, i say they do), what is the problem?
No, I think it's just you.
Idunno, maybe it is me. I thought it was pretty obvious. A sarcastic response to a sarcastic response.
While this probably started out as a way to get more investment out of the artists talents with an 'agile' design flow it ultimately has become the business model.
Make it fast, make it cheap, get as many bodies on top of it on Day 0. Once the title has failed move on to the next fad. Fifty Shades of Grey MMO annnnd GO! This model will eventually fall on it's ass but I foresee a horrible train wreck of trash coming out while investors slowly abandon this venture entirely at some point. Then maybe we can get production back on track.
But first we have to endure paying for character features, boob sliders, sword of doom, and bag of a million slots first -- and whatever else they can experiment with. Money is money.
There was a time when you had to at least buy the game first. Subscriptions were an odd ball idea but MMOs went with it. I mean after all it was a hosted service and made business sense. 50 cents a day is reasonable for most people.
But now, no, just build it and they will come. Throw the most epic house party with all the fluff, glow sticks, and overpriced drinks possible.
UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS
UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS
UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS UNTSS
wooooo!
PS abit drunk and I have turned my rant dial to 9
As for "where those old games went", your logic is about as sound as thinking that because Monday you ate bread and Friday was diagnosed with cancer, that bread must be the reason for your cancer. It could not be any of the other thousands of things in your life that may have contributed. Cause may equal effect, but make sure you look at more then just one possibility.
Let's try to expand that process a little but:
These old MMOs could be outdated
and/or
not to the liking of new players
and/or
changed in the core gameplay to entice new players to try it out (but they rarely do)
and/or
cash shops introduced to try to lessen the bleeding.
The subscription model today does not work.
1) Too many players refuse to pay for their entertainment.
2) Games are not "worth" the subscription anymore (my opinion).
3) Subscriptions place a limit on the amount the coveted "whales" can spend.
4) So many MMOs today that players sticking to one or two or three is nigh impossible for players today.
If I wanted to make an MMO to make LOTS of money, I would load it up with cash shop items. If I wanted to make a "good" MMO (my opinion), I would create a world where players want to spend time and money every month for years on end, creating a community with time spent in the game.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Me: I miss when there weren't cash shops.
Patrol: oh you want these people to starve. Hellooooo! Inflation! This isn't ten years ago. How do you expect these games to survive?! You need to step outside and get a dose of reality. If you had your way, we wouldn't have any games at all. Do you even economy? Stop crying. What do you expect them to do? Let's all just stop everything and bow down to your demands. God you're selfish!
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Subs as a "paywall" are fine, and for the most part keeps the tourists and people with no vested interest in the game at least mildly at bay.
The issue with F2P, especially for a niche type game you end up with botters, spammers, along with the rest of the chaff that completely ruins the immersion of others.
I know TR is an ambitious project and I am a early adopter/supporter/donator of the concept (even if the game fails, games being made like this are a good thing).
Trying to be everything to everyone by opening up the flood gates to anyone and everyone, especially in this day and age of "fast food gamers" with the attention span of a flea on crystal meth, you either have to really focus down on your niche market and listen to them or make the game ultra simplified.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
But I do feel this is only temporary, not done new standard from here on out. Development costs will change, customer expectations will as well.
It's a hard environment to thrive in these days and I have the utmost respect for you and your team in your quest to see your vision become reality.
Selling cosmetic items was a first step to the sorry state we are in now. Rather like a gateway drug it has led to gamers being addicted to the P2W cash shop that is now the norm.
In of itself cosmetic items are not an issue, but they not only made buying items normal for players, they created a signpost for gaming companies. A signpost that said "Make money here". So that's the route they went down, and now we have casino-play as the latest iteration of the cash shop brand. I say latest because if you have any sense you know there is worse to come.
P2P MMOs are nearly dead, B2P MMOs are the fall back position. But there is only one king in the world of MMOs and its name is cash shop, P2P/B2P/F2P it does not matter, cash shop is king.
When two people who normally disagree happen to agree on a subject that means they warrant the attention of others? Interesting. Illogical, but interesting.
I'm glad I saw this, even though I usually skip right over your posts. Once you play the insider "I know things. I can't tell you these things, or how I know these things, or verify that I'm a person that may know these things.. but take my word for it!" card on a board.. yeah, credibility is gone. Most people who saw that have already written you off.
- Nellus
My "everyone" included the players. Of course studios love F2P, they can release a steaming pile of crap and make millions a day through cash shop sales. As a business man who wouldn't have wet dreams about it ? As a gamer and a consumer though, just no.
Free to play is the main reason MMOs have been getting worse over the years. Studios can have the same revenue with an inferior product. They can make the same amount of money as with older games but with half the effort. It's pretty obvious F2P and cash shops are the worste thing that ever happened to the genre.
Also you guys go on and on about how the circumstances have changed and how P2P isn't viable anymore due to increased costs and what not, yet the big fat elephant in the room is still there staring at you: WoW. It's doing fine with subs and only added a cash shop out of greed, not necessity. Other much smaller games like Darkfall also manage to stay aflote with the sub model so your points are just not valid.