I can't blame anyone that is willing to pay for an idea. I have more fun listening to would-be developers tell me stories about games they'd like to create than I do playing modern MMORPGs.
Thats what happens when people are desperate for something different. If people were really as happy with the status quo as some people would like you to believe, millions of dollars wouldn't be raised by crowdfunding projects that are little more than ideas.
It is a shame. The fact that these projects receive so many backers proves that there are a lot of people with a lot of money willing to pay for something different.
We could just not support smaller developers and projects, and continue to whine about the quality of triple A games made for mass consumption? Would that make you happy? Would losing all hope and doomsaying the current state of affairs be better than donating pocket change in hopes something to our tastes is developed?
If I donate to Kickstarter I set me standards at "It'll be nice if this sees the light of day, however I don't expect it to. I'll subtract that from my monthly media budget."
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis--- NZXT Phantom 410 Case Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0 Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
The day I pay to beta for you and document bugs lol That's some funny stuff right there.
OP, games that do this most likely fall into the category of whale fishing when it's exorbitant pricing. They throw out the line to identify their most special people who they can give hugs to for their most valued (read paid) input. They know that each whale can potentially support x players so knowing their whales upfront determines if it will be profitable to continue. Better to learn that in the early phases rather than the later phases.
Since there are game reviewers out the wazoo now you also force them to pay to review your game and all reviewers desire that first scoop because it brings the most page views so they'll pay and usually can if a larger company is footing the bill.
The secondary reason to make those phases paid is to create a sense of scarcity. In the old days it was limited beta keys now everyone can have a key but they self regulate when it's paid.
The final reason is probably to go out to eat and celebrate with the money.
Yes, because the feedback was much more valuable when they sent out random invites and just hoped they got someone who actually cared enough to even give feedback.
"But they could screen the applicants!"
Yes, because no one has ever lied on an application that cannot be verified. I know I've been an extensive closed alpha tester since the first MUD!
Heck, have you ever seen how many "free" beta codes get sold and what they get sold for?! You would be NUTS as a developer to see this and not say "WHY AREN'T WE JUST SELLING THEM OURSELVES?!?!"
It's the equivalent of me handing out free cookie samples of a new recipe all day and then seeing the people turn around and sell them for a dollar each to other mall walkers more interested in cookies than they were. You bet your ass my next test batch won't be free.
The demand was always there. Developers just finally saw it. No different than systems like Plex in Eve to essentially allow players to sell in game currency. This is a multi-million dollar business that developers knew they could never stop but could try to get a cut of at least and make it safer.
Yes, because no one has ever lied on an application that cannot be verified. I know I've been an extensive closed alpha tester since the first MUD!
Your profile says you're 30. You weren't a closed alpha tester since the first MUD. One or the other is lying. Additionally, had you been an alpha test employee before all this paid alpha nonsense, you'd have more care to be less flippant about the subject, knowing first-hand the salary positions are coveted for those who could tolerate the daily slog. I know it's not like there's some "alpha test union", but were it true you held such a position, you'd know the effort and responsibility which goes into such work and I just don't think you'd have the same attitude toward the issue you're conveying.
I do agree, however, with the frustration reported by devs about their beta keys being sold, and I will mention the fact people discuss on this site's forums how they've sold beta keys for profit. You know, it's nice to have people participating in beta report bugs, they really should be reporting bugs and many, if not most, do. I think devs pretty much knew in the early 'ots', though, that people were participating in beta to have an edge at game launch over competitors, pve or pvp, or to just have an early look to decide if they should buy the titles, and devs have treated them more like advertisement campaigns with the added bonus of stress tests. I have in the past beta'd many games, including a number on this site's game list, I treated it in some degree as "work", and I'm certainly not going to pay someone to help build a game they intend to sell to me.
LOL, support a game in development... you are the disease, not the cure.
If you think paying in advance for home remodeling work results in a better product, then by all means, pay the guy upfront. Just don't come back here and complain when the job isn't done right. Buyer beware. You have the power to keep them honest... but only if you don't let them sleep in your wallet.
The problem is a catch 22.
On one side, the companies that have the money to create good MMORPGs, are just not stepping up.
On the other side, the teams that can produce the good MMORPGs, just do not have the money.
It is buyer beware, but the risk is well worth it. Just takes a little research, and do not sell your house or use the bill money, to support them.
Nah... it goes deeper than that and what you really should be asking yourself is "what is it that makes me think that I won't get bored or find fatal flaws in the next MMO I play when I have always found those fatal flaws and got bored in the past?"
Your question assumes too much and is a compound question, which is a logical fallacy.
I have not always gotten bored nor always found fatal flaws in the past. Given a real MMORPG, such as Ultima Online, Everquest and Vanguard, I would play it for years, "as I have in the past."
This is also in addition to my own MMORPG concepts, which would keep me quite busy for a long time (besides the getting to a point of actually making it part). Now of course, you can always state that lots of players think they want an MMORPG a certain way with certain features, and then do not like that MMORPG or it's features when actually presented with such. I am not those lots of players.
Sorry, my mistake. I didn't mean to personalize it but I see how I did. What I meant to say instead of "you" and "yourself" was "people" and "themselves."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I think you're conflating two different issues, and I think one of them actually is the solution that gamers want.
The "management" of game development has moved farther away from the goal of providing entertainment. Instead, it seems to be promoting addictions. A game should provide (or so it seems they think) a motivation for abusers (*ahem* customers) to send them money. Hence ever more creative ways to siphon funds from people.
Yes, I discussed this in a topic a week ago, but the discussion didn't seem very popular because some people reject the idea and I think it's too uncomfortable for most others.
I don't know why more people don't catch on to this. It's pretty blatant to me.
Your thread wasn't popular because it wasn't good. Do you have a thread a day policy going on?
As to this thread, who cares if it is a trend? Companies are learned that some people will pay for it and will try to monetize anything they can get away with.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The trend is very clear and unsurprising. Developers want to make money. For the vast majority of MMOs released in the last 10 years the hype is strongest before launch and dies down quickly after launch.
This means the ideal time to monetize an MMO is in fact before you launch it.
The problem is that its not REAL, its all criminal syndicates now. Think about it Kickstarter is the ultimate way to launder money.
Put dirty money in get cleaned game money out.
The even scarier part is the whole giving money to support some project on social funding and turns out you are really supporting ISIS or another terror group.
Until law enforcement catches up and rips into this industry this shit is just going to keep getting dirtier and dirtier.
Yes, because no one has ever lied on an application that cannot be verified. I know I've been an extensive closed alpha tester since the first MUD!
Your profile says you're 30. You weren't a closed alpha tester since the first MUD. One or the other is lying. Additionally, had you been an alpha test employee before all this paid alpha nonsense, you'd have more care to be less flippant about the subject, knowing first-hand the salary positions are coveted for those who could tolerate the daily slog. I know it's not like there's some "alpha test union", but were it true you held such a position, you'd know the effort and responsibility which goes into such work and I just don't think you'd have the same attitude toward the issue you're conveying.
I do agree, however, with the frustration reported by devs about their beta keys being sold, and I will mention the fact people discuss on this site's forums how they've sold beta keys for profit. You know, it's nice to have people participating in beta report bugs, they really should be reporting bugs and many, if not most, do. I think devs pretty much knew in the early 'ots', though, that people were participating in beta to have an edge at game launch over competitors, pve or pvp, or to just have an early look to decide if they should buy the titles, and devs have treated them more like advertisement campaigns with the added bonus of stress tests. I have in the past beta'd many games, including a number on this site's game list, I treated it in some degree as "work", and I'm certainly not going to pay someone to help build a game they intend to sell to me.
I think you missed the sarcasm and whole point of my statement... yes, I know I didn't alpha test any MUDs. But on a beta application? I can certainly say I did! I can say whatever I want to make myself a better candidate.
And they very much do still have plenty of professional paid QA staff. It's not like they got rid of them. In fact, many of these early access games flat out say "Look, we don't want you here to find bugs, it's great if you do and please report them. But we want you here to play the game and give us feedback. We want to know what you want us to make."
A lot of people think this is just BS PR speak, but think about it? They spend millions of dollars developing these games. Most of the time the public only sees if once it's way too late to make major changes. Look at ESO, they probably could have saved a lot of this trouble they had redoing the entire game over the last year if they had a more open development early on. And I love ESO and currently subscribe to it for the record.
Trove is a brilliant example of early access done right. Anyone who was in alpha from the beginning knows they literally shifted their systems completely based on feedback. The game might be completely different today had they not had the dedicated community early on who were passionate about giving feedback and steering the direction of development.
You can argue about the best way to find these early devoted fans. But I think a financial paywall is easy enough as anyone putting money down is at least interested enough and going to give it a good go.
lastly, don't act like you are only paying for alpha/beta access. Every single early access program I have seen offered equal value through in game currency or items for the contribution if not more. Trove actually gave bonus in game credits for people who supported early on. So my $20 got me access to alpha and I got more credits than I would have gotten had I waited for open beta and spent the same $20.
You can insult me and others all you want trying to make us sound like idiots or fools for paying for something we enjoy. But I will gladly keep supporting games early on and helping shape the development.
The problem is that its not REAL, its all criminal syndicates now. Think about it Kickstarter is the ultimate way to launder money.
Put dirty money in get cleaned game money out.
The even scarier part is the whole giving money to support some project on social funding and turns out you are really supporting ISIS or another terror group.
Until law enforcement catches up and rips into this industry this shit is just going to keep getting dirtier and dirtier.
First there was beta, which wasn't really beta, but rolled straight into release.
Then there were cash shops for betas.
Then there was "paid beta".
Then there was paid alpha.
Then there was paid alpha with monthly sub and cash shop.
Now there's "pay for our tech demo, so we can have something to post on a kickstarter page", so we can have paid alpha, and hey, we already have a cash shop even though we don't have a game yet.
Can't you see how messed up this is becoming? What could possibly be next? How much farther can people push this?
Can we get a kickstarter for a pre-pre alpha with monthly payments, with p2w cash shop limited time only, for a game which will begin development in 5 years? But you'd better register and support it today, because there are only 10,000 $500 packages+$15/month and after these, they're gone! I promise the game will be great, with every imaginable buzzword!
What the shit. Is this somehow a good thing? Does it even matter?
whats an example of this? So I can better picture the context of a paid tech demo.
First there was beta, which wasn't really beta, but rolled straight into release.
Then there were cash shops for betas.
Then there was "paid beta".
Then there was paid alpha.
Then there was paid alpha with monthly sub and cash shop.
Now there's "pay for our tech demo, so we can have something to post on a kickstarter page", so we can have paid alpha, and hey, we already have a cash shop even though we don't have a game yet.
Can't you see how messed up this is becoming? What could possibly be next? How much farther can people push this?
Can we get a kickstarter for a pre-pre alpha with monthly payments, with p2w cash shop limited time only, for a game which will begin development in 5 years? But you'd better register and support it today, because there are only 10,000 $500 packages+$15/month and after these, they're gone! I promise the game will be great, with every imaginable buzzword!
What the shit. Is this somehow a good thing? Does it even matter?
whats an example of this? So I can better picture the context of a paid tech demo.
If a company wants to charge people for the beta, demo... and people are willing to pay for it, why would I care?
My only concern is there is a game I want to play and am I willing to pay for it when it is done.
If someone else wants to pay for something different, it's there money, their time, their life. Go for it.
If there is a market, why shouldn't the companies make money of it?
edit - If I'm running a company and I know I need to test this thing with the general public I can pay for it all myself, or if there happens to be hundreds of thousands of people, or even just thousands of people that are willing to pay to try it out earlier I would be foolish to leave that money on the table. The same testing was going to be done, by the same people, but they want to pay for it, so great.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Yes, because no one has ever lied on an application that cannot be verified. I know I've been an extensive closed alpha tester since the first MUD!
Your profile says you're 30.
People lie on their profiles too
His ability to decipher my sarcasm needs some leveling up :-p.
I...did miss your sarcasm, mostly because that's not how studios pick beta applicants. I see your point and why you think it's that way. I apologize for jumping your stuff.
The rest of your opinion is fine, even good. I don't share your opinion, other than to say you can spend your money on whatever you want, and I've said that many times. I suppose it's natural for you to be defensive about it. Bear in mind I consider this degradation an assault on the genre in general, like a bad joke and a primary reason we're not seeing more ingenuity and honest, impressive craftsmanship, and I blame the propagators first, while I view people like you more as victims, settling for weak product and throwing money at unproven fast-talking con men. You think everything's just fine and can't see why many of us are upset about it. I doubt we'll see eye to eye for some time on this.
I think developers should make their product the best they can and put it to market with the foundational intent to compete. I don't think anyone is entitled to make a game because they have an idea. There are "motions to go through", hoops to jump through, all for good reasons. There are educated investors, like Columbus Nova for example, who can and will back a project if they see promise. This home-baked b.s. is half-baked and drawing on public funds when you can't get legitimate funding is exploitation. Further, each step we see from the premise in this thread's original post is a spiral downward, a spiral to which people are contributing, and later, I don't want to see any of them complaining "there's nothing good anymore", because they, in their short-sightedness, have facilitated the slide, no less supported it with their backs, but hey, it was fun while it lasted, right...
Would it surprise you to know I paid to get into the EQ beta? I just did it a different way than you do now. Nothing has really changed other than the methods you use to get into the early beta of the game.
This is like people who thought the real money AH was something new with D3. D2 had its own RM AH that was used way more than any other method of obtaining gear, it just didn't make the designers money.
Comments
I can't blame anyone that is willing to pay for an idea. I have more fun listening to would-be developers tell me stories about games they'd like to create than I do playing modern MMORPGs.
Thats what happens when people are desperate for something different. If people were really as happy with the status quo as some people would like you to believe, millions of dollars wouldn't be raised by crowdfunding projects that are little more than ideas.
It is a shame. The fact that these projects receive so many backers proves that there are a lot of people with a lot of money willing to pay for something different.
We could just not support smaller developers and projects, and continue to whine about the quality of triple A games made for mass consumption? Would that make you happy? Would losing all hope and doomsaying the current state of affairs be better than donating pocket change in hopes something to our tastes is developed?
If I donate to Kickstarter I set me standards at "It'll be nice if this sees the light of day, however I don't expect it to. I'll subtract that from my monthly media budget."
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis---
NZXT Phantom 410 Case
Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz
Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard
Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0
Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
Yes, because the feedback was much more valuable when they sent out random invites and just hoped they got someone who actually cared enough to even give feedback.
"But they could screen the applicants!"
Yes, because no one has ever lied on an application that cannot be verified. I know I've been an extensive closed alpha tester since the first MUD!
Heck, have you ever seen how many "free" beta codes get sold and what they get sold for?! You would be NUTS as a developer to see this and not say "WHY AREN'T WE JUST SELLING THEM OURSELVES?!?!"
It's the equivalent of me handing out free cookie samples of a new recipe all day and then seeing the people turn around and sell them for a dollar each to other mall walkers more interested in cookies than they were. You bet your ass my next test batch won't be free.
The demand was always there. Developers just finally saw it. No different than systems like Plex in Eve to essentially allow players to sell in game currency. This is a multi-million dollar business that developers knew they could never stop but could try to get a cut of at least and make it safer.
Your profile says you're 30. You weren't a closed alpha tester since the first MUD. One or the other is lying. Additionally, had you been an alpha test employee before all this paid alpha nonsense, you'd have more care to be less flippant about the subject, knowing first-hand the salary positions are coveted for those who could tolerate the daily slog. I know it's not like there's some "alpha test union", but were it true you held such a position, you'd know the effort and responsibility which goes into such work and I just don't think you'd have the same attitude toward the issue you're conveying.
I do agree, however, with the frustration reported by devs about their beta keys being sold, and I will mention the fact people discuss on this site's forums how they've sold beta keys for profit. You know, it's nice to have people participating in beta report bugs, they really should be reporting bugs and many, if not most, do. I think devs pretty much knew in the early 'ots', though, that people were participating in beta to have an edge at game launch over competitors, pve or pvp, or to just have an early look to decide if they should buy the titles, and devs have treated them more like advertisement campaigns with the added bonus of stress tests. I have in the past beta'd many games, including a number on this site's game list, I treated it in some degree as "work", and I'm certainly not going to pay someone to help build a game they intend to sell to me.
Sorry, my mistake. I didn't mean to personalize it but I see how I did. What I meant to say instead of "you" and "yourself" was "people" and "themselves."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Why have you guys not given up on MMOs? Why are you not playing this card game we have for you or this casino game disguised as a MMO?
That's the attitude up top, either join in the new genre or f-off to be frank. And part of that new genre is pay-every-which way.
Your thread wasn't popular because it wasn't good. Do you have a thread a day policy going on?
As to this thread, who cares if it is a trend? Companies are learned that some people will pay for it and will try to monetize anything they can get away with.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The trend is very clear and unsurprising. Developers want to make money. For the vast majority of MMOs released in the last 10 years the hype is strongest before launch and dies down quickly after launch.
This means the ideal time to monetize an MMO is in fact before you launch it.
The problem is that its not REAL, its all criminal syndicates now. Think about it Kickstarter is the ultimate way to launder money.
Put dirty money in get cleaned game money out.
The even scarier part is the whole giving money to support some project on social funding and turns out you are really supporting ISIS or another terror group.
Until law enforcement catches up and rips into this industry this shit is just going to keep getting dirtier and dirtier.
I think you missed the sarcasm and whole point of my statement... yes, I know I didn't alpha test any MUDs. But on a beta application? I can certainly say I did! I can say whatever I want to make myself a better candidate.
And they very much do still have plenty of professional paid QA staff. It's not like they got rid of them. In fact, many of these early access games flat out say "Look, we don't want you here to find bugs, it's great if you do and please report them. But we want you here to play the game and give us feedback. We want to know what you want us to make."
A lot of people think this is just BS PR speak, but think about it? They spend millions of dollars developing these games. Most of the time the public only sees if once it's way too late to make major changes. Look at ESO, they probably could have saved a lot of this trouble they had redoing the entire game over the last year if they had a more open development early on. And I love ESO and currently subscribe to it for the record.
Trove is a brilliant example of early access done right. Anyone who was in alpha from the beginning knows they literally shifted their systems completely based on feedback. The game might be completely different today had they not had the dedicated community early on who were passionate about giving feedback and steering the direction of development.
You can argue about the best way to find these early devoted fans. But I think a financial paywall is easy enough as anyone putting money down is at least interested enough and going to give it a good go.
lastly, don't act like you are only paying for alpha/beta access. Every single early access program I have seen offered equal value through in game currency or items for the contribution if not more. Trove actually gave bonus in game credits for people who supported early on. So my $20 got me access to alpha and I got more credits than I would have gotten had I waited for open beta and spent the same $20.
You can insult me and others all you want trying to make us sound like idiots or fools for paying for something we enjoy. But I will gladly keep supporting games early on and helping shape the development.
His ability to decipher my sarcasm needs some leveling up :-p.
Tin foil hat much?
whats an example of this? So I can better picture the context of a paid tech demo.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Trial of Ascension.
If a company wants to charge people for the beta, demo... and people are willing to pay for it, why would I care?
My only concern is there is a game I want to play and am I willing to pay for it when it is done.
If someone else wants to pay for something different, it's there money, their time, their life. Go for it.
If there is a market, why shouldn't the companies make money of it?
edit - If I'm running a company and I know I need to test this thing with the general public I can pay for it all myself, or if there happens to be hundreds of thousands of people, or even just thousands of people that are willing to pay to try it out earlier I would be foolish to leave that money on the table. The same testing was going to be done, by the same people, but they want to pay for it, so great.
I...did miss your sarcasm, mostly because that's not how studios pick beta applicants. I see your point and why you think it's that way. I apologize for jumping your stuff.
The rest of your opinion is fine, even good. I don't share your opinion, other than to say you can spend your money on whatever you want, and I've said that many times. I suppose it's natural for you to be defensive about it. Bear in mind I consider this degradation an assault on the genre in general, like a bad joke and a primary reason we're not seeing more ingenuity and honest, impressive craftsmanship, and I blame the propagators first, while I view people like you more as victims, settling for weak product and throwing money at unproven fast-talking con men. You think everything's just fine and can't see why many of us are upset about it. I doubt we'll see eye to eye for some time on this.
I think developers should make their product the best they can and put it to market with the foundational intent to compete. I don't think anyone is entitled to make a game because they have an idea. There are "motions to go through", hoops to jump through, all for good reasons. There are educated investors, like Columbus Nova for example, who can and will back a project if they see promise. This home-baked b.s. is half-baked and drawing on public funds when you can't get legitimate funding is exploitation. Further, each step we see from the premise in this thread's original post is a spiral downward, a spiral to which people are contributing, and later, I don't want to see any of them complaining "there's nothing good anymore", because they, in their short-sightedness, have facilitated the slide, no less supported it with their backs, but hey, it was fun while it lasted, right...
Dammit will have to keep a low profile, my profile job is "World Guru" that may get rumbled.
Would it surprise you to know I paid to get into the EQ beta? I just did it a different way than you do now. Nothing has really changed other than the methods you use to get into the early beta of the game.
This is like people who thought the real money AH was something new with D3. D2 had its own RM AH that was used way more than any other method of obtaining gear, it just didn't make the designers money.