SB company has been dropped, all work done with SB to date is still in play. EQN will just be going forward in house now to finish the emergent AI. Will they do as good a job? No clue. All work done up to date with SB devs has not been lost and is retained by DGC.
I have no idea what the Storybricks "product" actually consists of, but presumably there's more to it than just writing code for other people and/or consulting services.
So what exactly DGC will be "retaining" is unclear. Are there licensing fees involved ? Does Storybricks run on its own database ?
How will DGC be able to retain "part" of Storybricks and "do the rest inhouse" ? It sounds like a fine example of corporate double-speak to me. I'm not convinced in the least.
Nan, I'm with SpottyGekko on this one. The statement of 'to finish the emergent AI' is entirely speculative. Your interpretation of their intentions could be correct, or it could have an implied meaning of 'to replace the emergent AI with something else'. None of the posters here have a concrete grasp on the truth, we're all grasping at the meaning behind the literal words. You are more trusting than many, Nan. (That's actually a good thing, actually). The difference is the degree of trust that forum members exhibit, and the individuals (and company) involved with the production of this game have the reputation of saying one thing, but meaning another.
Storybricks is gone. That's clear. What existing code can (and will) be salvaged, we (the public) don't know. The work-to-date with the SB developers may or may not have been lost; that won't be known until the product is actually released.
But, like Gekko suggests, the more skeptical audience sees this as nothing, a corporate magician trying to get the audience to look at something while something entirely different happens. I've been in merger situations where I had to say one thing (in carefully crafted words) while not making any commitments illustrating what the actual plans were.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Originally posted by Ozmodan You have to be really careful with console versions. Gamepads have very limited controls, we have seen the horrible UI's that come from console games moved to a PC.
I guess you haven't played Ffxiv or you would be making such statements. A lot has changed since the early console mmo ports.
That's only one example. Skyrim would be the counter.
There you go, fact is it can be done and has been done right. That one example proves my point.
All it proves is that Square Enix is willing to try after totally revamping the game. It does not prove that any other company will be willing to put in the extra effort and cost in offering alternate UI's.
Again it proves it can be done, debating whether a company puts the same effort in is irrelevant and and a last ditch effort to not lose face. Again it can be done and has been done no matter how you try you can't disagree lol. I don't really need to say anymore.
How does the ability to do something directly translate into companies actually implementing it? Yeah, it can be done, but it doesn't matter if the majority of developers aren't willing to implement it.
We might see EQN come out but it will not be next gen. It will be poorer than EQ2.
Heavily instanced themepark game optimized to run on consoles
Did you even watch the video?
EDIT: Because your second statement is really off the mark.
Typical of many here, someone said it in a post, it's negative so it must be true. To hell with what the company says (those who know), they're all liars anyway.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by VorthanionAll it proves is that Square Enix is willing to try after totally revamping the game. It does not prove that any other company will be willing to put in the extra effort and cost in offering alternate UI's.
The controls in 1.0 for controller were great, very responsive. (The 2010 version) So your statement isn't totally accurate.
I was in the beta for 1.0 and played 2.0. The PC controls for 1.0 were atrocious and were greatly improved for 2.0. Most companies have always forced PC gamers to adapt to console based UI's, to the point that many give in and use controllers on their PC's. I don't give in on these kinds of games, I leave.
Are you saying you only play games that use a mouse and keyboard?
If I wanted to play games based on controllers, I'd own a console. The choice of owning a PC is as much about the hardware as is it is about the software.
We might see EQN come out but it will not be next gen. It will be poorer than EQ2.
Heavily instanced themepark game optimized to run on consoles
Did you even watch the video?
EDIT: Because your second statement is really off the mark.
Typical of many here, someone said it in a post, it's negative so it must be true. To hell with what the company says (those who know), they're all liars anyway.
In an era and genre where companies have often mislead if not outright lied about their products and or services, it's not all that surprising how many people react to PR press releases, especially those based on damage control.
Originally posted by VorthanionAll it proves is that Square Enix is willing to try after totally revamping the game. It does not prove that any other company will be willing to put in the extra effort and cost in offering alternate UI's.
The controls in 1.0 for controller were great, very responsive. (The 2010 version) So your statement isn't totally accurate.
I was in the beta for 1.0 and played 2.0. The PC controls for 1.0 were atrocious and were greatly improved for 2.0. Most companies have always forced PC gamers to adapt to console based UI's, to the point that many give in and use controllers on their PC's. I don't give in on these kinds of games, I leave.
Are you saying you only play games that use a mouse and keyboard?
If I wanted to play games based on controllers, I'd own a console. The choice of owning a PC is as much about the hardware as is it is about the software.
Different types of game-play are better suited to different types of control. They make gamepads for PC for a reason, and it's not simply to play console games on one.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
We might see EQN come out but it will not be next gen. It will be poorer than EQ2.
Heavily instanced themepark game optimized to run on consoles
Did you even watch the video?
EDIT: Because your second statement is really off the mark.
Typical of many here, someone said it in a post, it's negative so it must be true. To hell with what the company says (those who know), they're all liars anyway.
In an era and genre where companies have often mislead if not outright lied about their products and or services, it's not all that surprising how many people react to PR press releases, especially those based on damage control.
I find often what we gamers call lies is just change in direction for many reasons. We want updates ASAP but not willing to accept when games drop or add systems. Then we mob mentality things, someone post foul on the forums and it becomes a pile on without knowing the facts and often fact be dammed. Sure some devs lie but so do gamers. We keep wishing games failed and do everything we can to make them fail, we are going to get less games. IMO, thats a sad state we are making a reality.
We might see EQN come out but it will not be next gen. It will be poorer than EQ2.
Heavily instanced themepark game optimized to run on consoles
Did you even watch the video?
EDIT: Because your second statement is really off the mark.
Typical of many here, someone said it in a post, it's negative so it must be true. To hell with what the company says (those who know), they're all liars anyway.
You have to see they are going to try and spin this as positively as possible don't you even if it bends reality more a little bit to do so?
Landmark and EQN seemed by all indications to be SOE getting that releasing the same old same old onto the market over and over again isn't a good long term business decision. It might work short term but sooner or later the returns these new disposable games companies are releasing is going to dry up. It's a open question on if the new company shares that assessment of the MMO market or not. If they do we should see whatever replaces story bricks as well as the other world building tech being added to the game. If they don't we will see them shove a ton of static content into this game and rush it to market in the near future.
How they handle EQN will be very telling on what kind of company this is now and what the future of this studio holds.
Quote SOE/Daybreak about the acquisition. "In fact, we expect to have even more resources available to us as a result of this acquisition"
Feb 11, 2015:
SOE/Daybreak lays off nearly 200 employees. According to an inside source reporting to Gamasutra, that is 45% of the staff.
...
Yeah, yeah, you have to understand "corporate speak" to make sense of all this.
Remember, the number one priority is to make everything sound positive. It is a public company, so official announcements and press releases can have a direct impact on the share price. Hence all facts have to have positive spin applied, either by commission or omission.
Yes, the merger did leave them with "more resources available".
You may well ask, how is that possible, given the subsequent events ? For example, what if the new parent company only gave them 75% of the budget they used-to get from Sony, but the new parent also required them to fire 50% of the staff. So voila ! DGC can honestly say that they ended up with more money to spend on each staff member than they did before !
The original statement didn't specify what was meant by resources. It could equally be defined as people or money, or even both. These statements aren't lies, they're just looking at the truth from a different viewpoint.
As Bill Clinton famously said: "It all depends on what your definition of "is" is..."
We might see EQN come out but it will not be next gen. It will be poorer than EQ2.
Heavily instanced themepark game optimized to run on consoles
Did you even watch the video?
EDIT: Because your second statement is really off the mark.
Typical of many here, someone said it in a post, it's negative so it must be true. To hell with what the company says (those who know), they're all liars anyway.
You have to see they are going to try and spin this as positively as possible don't you even if it bends reality more a little bit to do so?
Landmark and EQN seemed by all indications to be SOE getting that releasing the same old same old onto the market over and over again isn't a good long term business decision. It might work short term but sooner or later the returns these new disposable games companies are releasing is going to dry up. It's a open question on if the new company shares that assessment of the MMO market or not. If they do we should see whatever replaces story bricks as well as the other world building tech being added to the game. If they don't we will see them shove a ton of static content into this game and rush it to market in the near future.
How they handle EQN will be very telling on what kind of company this is now and what the future of this studio holds.
I agree 100%. I think fans of all their games are watching very close how things moving forward will change the games they love. I know myself, I am taking it month to month. They say they wont be dropping any games currently but there is 100s of ways they could change for the good or bad. IMO to keep their name, they need to show gamers lots of love. Fans more so then anyone.
In an era and genre where companies have often mislead if not outright lied about their products and or services, it's not all that surprising how many people react to PR press releases, especially those based on damage control.
The only times I can think of actually being lied to or misled was when CU and NGE was about to release for SWG. I'm talking outright lied to, not what many view as "lies" around these parts, can you give other concrete details about lies? Actual lies now, not what people cling to as being a lie (ESO sticking to subs being an example of the latter)?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You have to see they are going to try and spin this as positively as possible don't you even if it bends reality more a little bit to do so?
Landmark and EQN seemed by all indications to be SOE getting that releasing the same old same old onto the market over and over again isn't a good long term business decision. It might work short term but sooner or later the returns these new disposable games companies are releasing is going to dry up. It's a open question on if the new company shares that assessment of the MMO market or not. If they do we should see whatever replaces story bricks as well as the other world building tech being added to the game. If they don't we will see them shove a ton of static content into this game and rush it to market in the near future.
How they handle EQN will be very telling on what kind of company this is now and what the future of this studio holds.
Of course... However my point was more about how "truth" comes to be on forums like this, whatever is the most damning or negative becomes the truth, truth in reality or not... good example MMO's are dead...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Again not facts. SoE has never said publicly how many staff they have. Some have guessed by their 2 locations and the size of the building 500-1000 but like I posted that as well is a guess. So all that is guess work and rumor.
Yup they did. DGC devs were working hand in hand to create emergent AI in house with SB devs. SB devs are now gone and DGC is going forward in house doing the same work and retaining all work done to date. Their words.
When I post something I dont know as 100% fact I say things like rumored, or the internet says. ********You post things like "They lost 50% of their staff" Thats where you go that makes you a tin foil hat guy.******* I would never have replied to you other wise if all you had said is IMO. Thats what most of your post are about. I hate DGC and their games and this is the rumor I want to spread next.
Fact, no one knows if DGC will pull off this game, not even them. Most of their game is RD. Never been done before or old systems working with system that have never been done before. I hope they pull it off but till them. Lets not call them having a good or bad game. Lets not pray they fail but hope they push MMOs to the next step so all MMOs that come after can gain something from their hard work. As a gamer this is the mind set we all should carry. Blind hate does not help anyone.
Odd, I thought I was pretty clear to state "roughly 50% of the staff lost" and citing the sources like Gamasutra or other quotes from Daybreak themselves when I make a point. Also I think it is pretty clear to most that we are talking about facts, even if they are not the exact numbers, they are facts none the less. This isn't like making a random guess by nameless forum goers to come to a completely fabricated employee estimate of 500-1,000.
When you compare SOE/Daybreaks claims to their actual actions, you have to admit they do not match up. So much so that it cannot be dismissed as anything other than deception or at the very best complete incompetence of communication between the teams of what they want the think they are doing and what they are actually doing being miles apart. Either way it shows their public facing comments cannot be taken at face value. Again, this is a pretty well established pattern for this company.
Everything else you posting isn't really relevant to the discussion. You playing fast and loose with what I actually say and the ignoring all the facts doesn't change much does it?
Did SOE claim they would have more resources as a result of the merger? Yes
Did they cut roughly 200 jobs nine days later? Yes
Did they cut outside support for a core element of EQNexts' development? Yes
So on one hand the WORD from Daybreak is that they are going to somehow get more resources as a result of the acquisition.
On the other hand, the ACTIONS from Daybreak are of a company being stripped of resources.
and I don't need to mock you with internet meme's to make my point.
So just to be crystal clear, my point is this. I do not agree with your view that the Daybreak developers statements are anything that can be relied on, especially when there is information available that conflicts with those statements. Again, there is history that proves this statement as a fact. Hating on me doesn't change that.
Again not facts. SoE has never said publicly how many staff they have. Some have guessed by their 2 locations and the size of the building 500-1000 but like I posted that as well is a guess. So all that is guess work and rumor.
Yup they did. DGC devs were working hand in hand to create emergent AI in house with SB devs. SB devs are now gone and DGC is going forward in house doing the same work and retaining all work done to date. Their words.
When I post something I dont know as 100% fact I say things like rumored, or the internet says. ********You post things like "They lost 50% of their staff" Thats where you go that makes you a tin foil hat guy.******* I would never have replied to you other wise if all you had said is IMO. Thats what most of your post are about. I hate DGC and their games and this is the rumor I want to spread next.
Fact, no one knows if DGC will pull off this game, not even them. Most of their game is RD. Never been done before or old systems working with system that have never been done before. I hope they pull it off but till them. Lets not call them having a good or bad game. Lets not pray they fail but hope they push MMOs to the next step so all MMOs that come after can gain something from their hard work. As a gamer this is the mind set we all should carry. Blind hate does not help anyone.
Odd, I thought I was pretty clear to state "roughly 50% of the staff lost" and citing the sources like Gamasutra or other quotes from Daybreak themselves when I make a point. Also I think it is pretty clear to most that we are talking about facts, even if they are not the exact numbers, they are facts none the less. This isn't like making a random guess by nameless forum goers to come to a completely fabricated employee estimate of 500-1,000.
No one knows for sure how many staffers they have. Could be 75% could be 20%. Any number is speculation at best.
When you compare SOE/Daybreaks claims to their actual actions, you have to admit they do not match up. So much so that it cannot be dismissed as anything other than deception or at the very best complete incompetence of communication between the teams of what they want the think they are doing and what they are actually doing being miles apart. Either way it shows their public facing comments cannot be taken at face value. Again, this is a pretty well established pattern for this company.
Everything else you posting isn't really relevant to the discussion. You playing fast and loose with what I actually say and the ignoring all the facts doesn't change much does it?
Im not playing fast and lose, you state things as fact that are not facts. You take facts and draw your own conclusions, that in it self is fine, but then spin your conclusions as fact. Look below to see what I mean.
Did SOE claim they would have more resources as a result of the merger? Yes
Yes, but no where did they say that would be spent on keeping all staff. They may have 10 times more funds for all we know but they felt money was better spent else where. At this point we have no way of knowing if this is true or not so spin it into a good or bad thing is jumping the gun.
Did they cut roughly 200 jobs nine days later? Yes
Yes point?
Did they cut outside support for a core element of EQNexts' development? Yes
Yes but the systems itself was never dropped. Just the support. DGC has been making games for a long time. They may have even learned new tricks working with the SB devs. But you and many others are taking the spin this means the current plan of how their emergent AI is axed. Its not, the video above says its moving forward. Only question is, can they pull it off. Same as it was when they had the SB devs working in house.
So on one hand the WORD from Daybreak is that they are going to somehow get more resources as a result of the acquisition.
On the other hand, the ACTIONS from Daybreak are of a company being stripped of resources.
Again, conjecture. As you have no clue if anything has been added.
and I don't need to mock you with internet meme's to make my point.
So just to be crystal clear, my point is this. I do not agree with your view that the Daybreak developers statements are anything that can be relied on, especially when there is information available that conflicts with those statements. Again, there is history that proves this statement as a fact. Hating on me doesn't change that.
Then you are I are in the same boat, waiting to see if they can pull off what they say they are trying to make. Only diff, is I am rooting they pull it off for the future of all MMOs and you are rooting they fail. IMO a sad stance to take as a gamer who wants MMOs to progress. Or would you rather they didnt? This MMO is heavy on RD, more so then most MMOs being made.
Originally posted by Wolfhammer Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by VorthanionOriginally posted by Laughing-manOriginally posted by VorthanionAll it proves is that Square Enix is willing to try after totally revamping the game. It does not prove that any other company will be willing to put in the extra effort and cost in offering alternate UI's.
The controls in 1.0 for controller were great, very responsive. (The 2010 version) So your statement isn't totally accurate.I was in the beta for 1.0 and played 2.0. The PC controls for 1.0 were atrocious and were greatly improved for 2.0. Most companies have always forced PC gamers to adapt to console based UI's, to the point that many give in and use controllers on their PC's. I don't give in on these kinds of games, I leave.Are you saying you only play games that use a mouse and keyboard?Yup - Wouldnt touch a gamepad or a console... Never will either.. Wow that's brutal. I can't even count how many amazing games you've missed out on. Entire genres, hell entire eras of gaming goodness. Arcades, pinball, fighting games, flight sticks, racing wheels, trackballs... That's really to bad.
1) No one knows for sure how many staffers they have. Could be 75% could be 20%. Any number is speculation at best.
2) Im not playing fast and lose, you state things as fact that are not facts. You take facts and draw your own conclusions, that in it self is fine, but then spin your conclusions as fact. Look below to see what I mean.
A) Yes, but no where did they say that would be spent on keeping all staff. They may have 10 times more funds for all we know but they felt money was better spent else where. At this point we have no way of knowing if this is true or not so spin it into a good or bad thing is jumping the gun.
Yes but the systems itself was never dropped. Just the support. DGC has been making games for a long time. They may have even learned new tricks working with the SB devs. But you and many others are taking the spin this means the current plan of how their emergent AI is axed. Its not, the video above says its moving forward. Only question is, can they pull it off. Same as it was when they had the SB devs working in house.
3) Again, conjecture. As you have no clue if anything has been added.
Then you are I are in the same boat, waiting to see if they can pull off what they say they are trying to make. Only diff, is I am rooting they pull it off for the future of all MMOs and you are rooting they fail. IMO a sad stance to take as a gamer who wants MMOs to progress. Or would you rather they didnt? This MMO is heavy on RD, more so then most MMOs being made.
1) True, but I am citing reputable news sources with insider information. You are making baseless wild speculation and pretending the two are the same, which they are not. Funny thing is you ignore the reputable information I reference, but when you reference the developers they are beyond reproach and treat them as the only source of information that should be looked at.
2) Oh you don't play fast and loose with information to fabricate points to support your view?
a) you are throwing out speculation that Daybreak layoffs might have resulted in having more money that is spent better somewhere else. Based on nothing... I understood what you were saying, but that is exactly what I mean. Suggesting blind speculation, because "anything is possible" doesn't make a valid point.
b) First, I didn't say it was axed (please stop putting words in my mouth in effort to make your point). Second, you are blindly speculating that Daybreak might have figured out "new tricks" and that somehow not only offsets the loss of working with Storybricks directly, but maybe even more resources? more efficient? Base exactly on what? That Daybreak has been making games a long time?
Just to entertain your baseless speculations:
a) what exactly could daybreak spend this new pile of mythical money on? What do you think every employee left would ask for if Daybreak asked them what they need to help get the game done. I'm betting almost everyone of them would say more employees and support for their development tools (like storybricks). but I'm curious what you can come up with....
b) it is funny that you now point to the history of the company as if it might have resulted in them making better gaming development, when the history of their game development failures is precisely what has landed them in the position they are in.
3) You are assuming the information is incomplete, because MAYBE something was added. Again I point out your speculation. I am making conclusions based on the information we all have, you just want to believe more than is available.
Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean I am rooting for the game to fail. I just have no confidence that this company will succeed as you think they might. See the companies history for why I feel that way.
I do get that we all live in a world where anything is possible and no one knows the future with pinpoint accuracy, but there is a difference between possible and plausible. Give enough monkies typewriters and they will eventually put out Shakespeare. I have just read enough of their works to have given up waiting for it to happen. You keep going back to each monkey book in the hopes that you will eventually get a masterpiece, because it is possible.
Originally posted by VorthanionAll it proves is that Square Enix is willing to try after totally revamping the game. It does not prove that any other company will be willing to put in the extra effort and cost in offering alternate UI's.
The controls in 1.0 for controller were great, very responsive. (The 2010 version) So your statement isn't totally accurate.
I was in the beta for 1.0 and played 2.0. The PC controls for 1.0 were atrocious and were greatly improved for 2.0. Most companies have always forced PC gamers to adapt to console based UI's, to the point that many give in and use controllers on their PC's. I don't give in on these kinds of games, I leave.
Are you saying you only play games that use a mouse and keyboard?
Yup - Wouldnt touch a gamepad or a console... Never will either..
Wow that's brutal. I can't even count how many amazing games you've missed out on. Entire genres, hell entire eras of gaming goodness. Arcades, pinball, fighting games, flight sticks, racing wheels, trackballs... That's really to bad.
Define things as 'Great!' and then denigrate for missing out on them. I could as easily call you to task for not skydiving: 'It's a huge rush, loads of fun, why didn't you invest the thousands into doing that??'
Many of those genres are not of interest to me. I don't like platformers. Or convoluted fighting games with their byzantine series of command moves for special attacks.
Thing is, if you offer support for a set of controls, the controls should work well. Many, many controller-centric games do not do this well. for M&K. If you are going to make every moment of a game an irritation or a pain, I am not going to play, regardless of its quality. And more to the point, I won't buy the game either. You may have a different viewpoint on that, but that's valid up to the point it leaves your vicinity.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Personally, if the Glass Door commentary is valid (which I tend to believe), then SoE/Daybreak needed to lay off a bunch of the crew. The real question will be did they know enough to get rid of the proper ones.
It'll be interesting to see how things develop with EQN. I have no ax to grind one way or another, so I'll just wait and see what actually transpires.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
1) No one knows for sure how many staffers they have. Could be 75% could be 20%. Any number is speculation at best.
2) Im not playing fast and lose, you state things as fact that are not facts. You take facts and draw your own conclusions, that in it self is fine, but then spin your conclusions as fact. Look below to see what I mean.
A) Yes, but no where did they say that would be spent on keeping all staff. They may have 10 times more funds for all we know but they felt money was better spent else where. At this point we have no way of knowing if this is true or not so spin it into a good or bad thing is jumping the gun.
Yes but the systems itself was never dropped. Just the support. DGC has been making games for a long time. They may have even learned new tricks working with the SB devs. But you and many others are taking the spin this means the current plan of how their emergent AI is axed. Its not, the video above says its moving forward. Only question is, can they pull it off. Same as it was when they had the SB devs working in house.
3) Again, conjecture. As you have no clue if anything has been added.
Then you are I are in the same boat, waiting to see if they can pull off what they say they are trying to make. Only diff, is I am rooting they pull it off for the future of all MMOs and you are rooting they fail. IMO a sad stance to take as a gamer who wants MMOs to progress. Or would you rather they didnt? This MMO is heavy on RD, more so then most MMOs being made.
Just to entertain your baseless speculations:
a) what exactly could daybreak spend this new pile of mythical money on? What do you think every employee left would ask for if Daybreak asked them what they need to help get the game done. I'm betting almost everyone of them would say more employees and support for their development tools (like storybricks). but I'm curious what you can come up with....
Time, being a game thats mostly RD, that would be the biggest. From there is could be anthing right down to access to Novas resources, other companies. Heck for all we know, they may hire staff more in line with their current thinking. What they could spend money on really? Heck companies cut down on staff all the time and grow afterward. How many people work at your company does not equal success.
b) it is funny that you now point to the history of the company as if it might have resulted in them making better gaming development, when the history of their game development failures is precisely what has landed them in the position they are in.
Everyone and every company has their success stories and failures. Point? Fact, they are one of the grandfathers of what made MMOing what it is today. Do they still have the chops? Waiting to see.
3) You are assuming the information is incomplete, because MAYBE something was added. Again I point out your speculation. I am making conclusions based on the information we all have, you just want to believe more than is available.
Im not saying something was added I am saying that we dont know. You keep pointing at the fact they said Nova gave them more resources but thats a lie because after that they laid people off and cut Storybricks. Question is what was added? We dont know if it was. In the end saying that statement is a lie is speculation unless you know for a fact they have nothing new added.
As for the 50% lay off and their inside source, I dont buy it. Im not saying they dont have a inside source. Im saying it means little. I can point to tweets where devs have replied to me directly and then claim to have an inside source. Heck people on this forum do that all the time. I dont buy it till I see facts backing up claims. I see none on this.
Originally posted by Arglebargle Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by WolfhammerOriginally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by VorthanionOriginally posted by Laughing-manOriginally posted by VorthanionAll it proves is that Square Enix is willing to try after totally revamping the game. It does not prove that any other company will be willing to put in the extra effort and cost in offering alternate UI's.
The controls in 1.0 for controller were great, very responsive. (The 2010 version) So your statement isn't totally accurate.I was in the beta for 1.0 and played 2.0. The PC controls for 1.0 were atrocious and were greatly improved for 2.0. Most companies have always forced PC gamers to adapt to console based UI's, to the point that many give in and use controllers on their PC's. I don't give in on these kinds of games, I leave.Are you saying you only play games that use a mouse and keyboard?Yup - Wouldnt touch a gamepad or a console... Never will either..Wow that's brutal. I can't even count how many amazing games you've missed out on. Entire genres, hell entire eras of gaming goodness. Arcades, pinball, fighting games, flight sticks, racing wheels, trackballs... That's really to bad.Define things as 'Great!' and then denigrate for missing out on them. I could as easily call you to task for not skydiving: 'It's a huge rush, loads of fun, why didn't you invest the thousands into doing that??'
Many of those genres are not of interest to me. I don't like platformers. Or convoluted fighting games with their byzantine series of command moves for special attacks.
Thing is, if you offer support for a set of controls, the controls should work well. Many, many controller-centric games do not do this well. for M&K. If you are going to make every moment of a game an irritation or a pain, I am not going to play, regardless of its quality. And more to the point, I won't buy the game either. You may have a different viewpoint on that, but that's valid up to the point it leaves your vicinity.
I'm actually in agreement with you. I just prefer not to blame the hardware since it's not really the culprit for poor control. All you need to prove that is one game that does it right. Which has already occurred. So we know it is possible. So to say a controller doesn't work with MMOs is like saying birds don't fly because of penguins. Just because most devs don't bother to optimize for gamepads doesn't mean it doesn't work. It simply means those devs don't work. Because other devs have made it work quite well.
1] Time, being a game thats mostly RD, that would be the biggest. From there is could be anthing right down to access to Novas resources, other companies. Heck for all we know, they may hire staff more in line with their current thinking. What they could spend money on really? Heck companies cut down on staff all the time and grow afterward. How many people work at your company does not equal success.
2] Everyone and every company has their success stories and failures. Point? Fact, they are one of the grandfathers of what made MMOing what it is today. Do they still have the chops? Waiting to see.
3] Im not saying something was added I am saying that we dont know. You keep pointing at the fact they said Nova gave them more resources but thats a lie because after that they laid people off and cut Storybricks. Question is what was added? We dont know if it was. In the end saying that statement is a lie is speculation unless you know for a fact they have nothing new added.
4] As for the 50% lay off and their inside source, I dont buy it. Im not saying they dont have a inside source. Im saying it means little. I can point to tweets where devs have replied to me directly and then claim to have an inside source. Heck people on this forum do that all the time. I dont buy it till I see facts backing up claims. I see none on this.
1] so you are speculating that this investment company bought SOE, fired a massive amount of developers (thus slowing development) in order to give SOE more time to develop? Then they might have access to some unnamed "resources" that might help in some unnamed way? Fired some of the staff from a company that you were just touting the long term experience in developing game in order to hire people who think in line with an investment company?
I appreciate that you attempted an answer, but again blind speculation that has no plausible base of reason.
Also I understand SOME companies hire/fire all the time, but we are not talking about nameless companies in a classroom discussion of textbooks. We are talking about SOE who has gone though several rounds of 100+ layoffs the last few years. Who has closed down multiple games, studios and projects. Again, you act like because anything is possible, what you suggest is somehow probable. Despite the evidence.
2] Fact, SOE had a successful game 16 years ago. Fact, for the last 10 years they have been dominated by failure without a real success to show for it. Do they still have chops, no.
3] I'm sure we do know that nothing was added. Why? A company in complete damage control would be crowing about the new improvements they have made in order offset all the very public setbacks and losses they have just had. Talk about tinfoil hat theories, you want to say there might have been something added, because there is no evidence of anything being added. Nonsense.
4] Nothing is stopping you from claiming anything, which you sort of do anyway. However, you are not a reputable new source are you? Sorry if you again want to believe something that flies in the face of facts, but that is your choice.
I really want you to understand that you are going way above and beyond to defend what is essentially corporate double speak damage control and trying to justify that by saying "anything is possible".
Based on the existing know available evidence, which do you think is more plausible.
1) SOE releases a great game in EQN
2) SOE releases another pre-alpha game that falls flat
Originally posted by VorthanionAll it proves is that Square Enix is willing to try after totally revamping the game. It does not prove that any other company will be willing to put in the extra effort and cost in offering alternate UI's.
The controls in 1.0 for controller were great, very responsive. (The 2010 version) So your statement isn't totally accurate.
I was in the beta for 1.0 and played 2.0. The PC controls for 1.0 were atrocious and were greatly improved for 2.0. Most companies have always forced PC gamers to adapt to console based UI's, to the point that many give in and use controllers on their PC's. I don't give in on these kinds of games, I leave.
Are you saying you only play games that use a mouse and keyboard?
Yup - Wouldnt touch a gamepad or a console... Never will either..
Wow that's brutal. I can't even count how many amazing games you've missed out on. Entire genres, hell entire eras of gaming goodness. Arcades, pinball, fighting games, flight sticks, racing wheels, trackballs... That's really to bad.
I can't imagine missing out on some great games that use a controller. Often the game plays better with my Logitech 710 than it does with the KB&M.
Bastion, Borderlands 2, Alan Wake, Chantelise, Child of Light, Dust, Trine, Trine 2, Broken Age, Agarest, Bioshock Infinite, Deadly Premonition, Witcher 2, Valkyria Chronicles to name a few.
I hope ESO and Neverwinter offer PC controller support when they launch on console. I hope EQN has it natively from the get go.
They said in the video that they are working on the PC game first and said controller mapping would come later. =- But they do see both Landmark and EQN interface working with one. Not sure how they would do Landmark lol
We might see EQN come out but it will not be next gen. It will be poorer than EQ2.
Heavily instanced themepark game optimized to run on consoles
Did you even watch the video?
EDIT: Because your second statement is really off the mark.
Typical of many here, someone said it in a post, it's negative so it must be true. To hell with what the company says (those who know), they're all liars anyway.
What company ?!
They are bought and managed by an investment firm. Investment firm that deals in forceful armed takeovers of Oil digs.
The hell they know about games. They do know about numbers though.
"Cut outsourced technology. Savings , Fire 45% of workforce. Savings"
"Hey, but dont fire that PR guy yet. We need him to spin some bulshit for gullible kids. Just tell him to invent something. Perhaps that we suddenly developed next gen technology of our own"
"What in two weeks ?"
"Yeah...hehe. Trust me some of them are so dumb. They will buy anything PR says. Sad really..."
Comments
Nan, I'm with SpottyGekko on this one. The statement of 'to finish the emergent AI' is entirely speculative. Your interpretation of their intentions could be correct, or it could have an implied meaning of 'to replace the emergent AI with something else'. None of the posters here have a concrete grasp on the truth, we're all grasping at the meaning behind the literal words. You are more trusting than many, Nan. (That's actually a good thing, actually). The difference is the degree of trust that forum members exhibit, and the individuals (and company) involved with the production of this game have the reputation of saying one thing, but meaning another.
Storybricks is gone. That's clear. What existing code can (and will) be salvaged, we (the public) don't know. The work-to-date with the SB developers may or may not have been lost; that won't be known until the product is actually released.
But, like Gekko suggests, the more skeptical audience sees this as nothing, a corporate magician trying to get the audience to look at something while something entirely different happens. I've been in merger situations where I had to say one thing (in carefully crafted words) while not making any commitments illustrating what the actual plans were.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
As everyone here predicted:
1. Key people fired
2. Next gen technology cancelled
3. Already making plans for console version
=
We might see EQN come out but it will not be next gen. It will be poorer than EQ2.
Heavily instanced themepark game optimized to run on consoles
Did you even watch the video?
EDIT: Because your second statement is really off the mark.
How does the ability to do something directly translate into companies actually implementing it? Yeah, it can be done, but it doesn't matter if the majority of developers aren't willing to implement it.
Typical of many here, someone said it in a post, it's negative so it must be true. To hell with what the company says (those who know), they're all liars anyway.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If I wanted to play games based on controllers, I'd own a console. The choice of owning a PC is as much about the hardware as is it is about the software.
In an era and genre where companies have often mislead if not outright lied about their products and or services, it's not all that surprising how many people react to PR press releases, especially those based on damage control.
Different types of game-play are better suited to different types of control. They make gamepads for PC for a reason, and it's not simply to play console games on one.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I find often what we gamers call lies is just change in direction for many reasons. We want updates ASAP but not willing to accept when games drop or add systems. Then we mob mentality things, someone post foul on the forums and it becomes a pile on without knowing the facts and often fact be dammed. Sure some devs lie but so do gamers. We keep wishing games failed and do everything we can to make them fail, we are going to get less games. IMO, thats a sad state we are making a reality.
You have to see they are going to try and spin this as positively as possible don't you even if it bends reality more a little bit to do so?
Landmark and EQN seemed by all indications to be SOE getting that releasing the same old same old onto the market over and over again isn't a good long term business decision. It might work short term but sooner or later the returns these new disposable games companies are releasing is going to dry up. It's a open question on if the new company shares that assessment of the MMO market or not. If they do we should see whatever replaces story bricks as well as the other world building tech being added to the game. If they don't we will see them shove a ton of static content into this game and rush it to market in the near future.
How they handle EQN will be very telling on what kind of company this is now and what the future of this studio holds.
Yeah, yeah, you have to understand "corporate speak" to make sense of all this.
Remember, the number one priority is to make everything sound positive. It is a public company, so official announcements and press releases can have a direct impact on the share price. Hence all facts have to have positive spin applied, either by commission or omission.
Yes, the merger did leave them with "more resources available".
You may well ask, how is that possible, given the subsequent events ? For example, what if the new parent company only gave them 75% of the budget they used-to get from Sony, but the new parent also required them to fire 50% of the staff. So voila ! DGC can honestly say that they ended up with more money to spend on each staff member than they did before !
The original statement didn't specify what was meant by resources. It could equally be defined as people or money, or even both. These statements aren't lies, they're just looking at the truth from a different viewpoint.
As Bill Clinton famously said: "It all depends on what your definition of "is" is..."
I agree 100%. I think fans of all their games are watching very close how things moving forward will change the games they love. I know myself, I am taking it month to month. They say they wont be dropping any games currently but there is 100s of ways they could change for the good or bad. IMO to keep their name, they need to show gamers lots of love. Fans more so then anyone.
The only times I can think of actually being lied to or misled was when CU and NGE was about to release for SWG. I'm talking outright lied to, not what many view as "lies" around these parts, can you give other concrete details about lies? Actual lies now, not what people cling to as being a lie (ESO sticking to subs being an example of the latter)?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Of course... However my point was more about how "truth" comes to be on forums like this, whatever is the most damning or negative becomes the truth, truth in reality or not... good example MMO's are dead...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Odd, I thought I was pretty clear to state "roughly 50% of the staff lost" and citing the sources like Gamasutra or other quotes from Daybreak themselves when I make a point. Also I think it is pretty clear to most that we are talking about facts, even if they are not the exact numbers, they are facts none the less. This isn't like making a random guess by nameless forum goers to come to a completely fabricated employee estimate of 500-1,000.
When you compare SOE/Daybreaks claims to their actual actions, you have to admit they do not match up. So much so that it cannot be dismissed as anything other than deception or at the very best complete incompetence of communication between the teams of what they want the think they are doing and what they are actually doing being miles apart. Either way it shows their public facing comments cannot be taken at face value. Again, this is a pretty well established pattern for this company.
Everything else you posting isn't really relevant to the discussion. You playing fast and loose with what I actually say and the ignoring all the facts doesn't change much does it?
Did SOE claim they would have more resources as a result of the merger? Yes
Did they cut roughly 200 jobs nine days later? Yes
Did they cut outside support for a core element of EQNexts' development? Yes
So on one hand the WORD from Daybreak is that they are going to somehow get more resources as a result of the acquisition.
On the other hand, the ACTIONS from Daybreak are of a company being stripped of resources.
and I don't need to mock you with internet meme's to make my point.
So just to be crystal clear, my point is this. I do not agree with your view that the Daybreak developers statements are anything that can be relied on, especially when there is information available that conflicts with those statements. Again, there is history that proves this statement as a fact. Hating on me doesn't change that.
No one knows for sure how many staffers they have. Could be 75% could be 20%. Any number is speculation at best.
Im not playing fast and lose, you state things as fact that are not facts. You take facts and draw your own conclusions, that in it self is fine, but then spin your conclusions as fact. Look below to see what I mean.
Yes, but no where did they say that would be spent on keeping all staff. They may have 10 times more funds for all we know but they felt money was better spent else where. At this point we have no way of knowing if this is true or not so spin it into a good or bad thing is jumping the gun.
Yes point?
Yes but the systems itself was never dropped. Just the support. DGC has been making games for a long time. They may have even learned new tricks working with the SB devs. But you and many others are taking the spin this means the current plan of how their emergent AI is axed. Its not, the video above says its moving forward. Only question is, can they pull it off. Same as it was when they had the SB devs working in house.
Again, conjecture. As you have no clue if anything has been added.
Then you are I are in the same boat, waiting to see if they can pull off what they say they are trying to make. Only diff, is I am rooting they pull it off for the future of all MMOs and you are rooting they fail. IMO a sad stance to take as a gamer who wants MMOs to progress. Or would you rather they didnt? This MMO is heavy on RD, more so then most MMOs being made.
I was in the beta for 1.0 and played 2.0. The PC controls for 1.0 were atrocious and were greatly improved for 2.0. Most companies have always forced PC gamers to adapt to console based UI's, to the point that many give in and use controllers on their PC's. I don't give in on these kinds of games, I leave.
Are you saying you only play games that use a mouse and keyboard?
Yup - Wouldnt touch a gamepad or a console... Never will either..
Wow that's brutal. I can't even count how many amazing games you've missed out on. Entire genres, hell entire eras of gaming goodness. Arcades, pinball, fighting games, flight sticks, racing wheels, trackballs... That's really to bad.
1) True, but I am citing reputable news sources with insider information. You are making baseless wild speculation and pretending the two are the same, which they are not. Funny thing is you ignore the reputable information I reference, but when you reference the developers they are beyond reproach and treat them as the only source of information that should be looked at.
2) Oh you don't play fast and loose with information to fabricate points to support your view?
a) you are throwing out speculation that Daybreak layoffs might have resulted in having more money that is spent better somewhere else. Based on nothing... I understood what you were saying, but that is exactly what I mean. Suggesting blind speculation, because "anything is possible" doesn't make a valid point.
b) First, I didn't say it was axed (please stop putting words in my mouth in effort to make your point). Second, you are blindly speculating that Daybreak might have figured out "new tricks" and that somehow not only offsets the loss of working with Storybricks directly, but maybe even more resources? more efficient? Base exactly on what? That Daybreak has been making games a long time?
Just to entertain your baseless speculations:
a) what exactly could daybreak spend this new pile of mythical money on? What do you think every employee left would ask for if Daybreak asked them what they need to help get the game done. I'm betting almost everyone of them would say more employees and support for their development tools (like storybricks). but I'm curious what you can come up with....
b) it is funny that you now point to the history of the company as if it might have resulted in them making better gaming development, when the history of their game development failures is precisely what has landed them in the position they are in.
3) You are assuming the information is incomplete, because MAYBE something was added. Again I point out your speculation. I am making conclusions based on the information we all have, you just want to believe more than is available.
Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean I am rooting for the game to fail. I just have no confidence that this company will succeed as you think they might. See the companies history for why I feel that way.
I do get that we all live in a world where anything is possible and no one knows the future with pinpoint accuracy, but there is a difference between possible and plausible. Give enough monkies typewriters and they will eventually put out Shakespeare. I have just read enough of their works to have given up waiting for it to happen. You keep going back to each monkey book in the hopes that you will eventually get a masterpiece, because it is possible.
That in a nutshell is the difference between us.
Define things as 'Great!' and then denigrate for missing out on them. I could as easily call you to task for not skydiving: 'It's a huge rush, loads of fun, why didn't you invest the thousands into doing that??'
Many of those genres are not of interest to me. I don't like platformers. Or convoluted fighting games with their byzantine series of command moves for special attacks.
Thing is, if you offer support for a set of controls, the controls should work well. Many, many controller-centric games do not do this well. for M&K. If you are going to make every moment of a game an irritation or a pain, I am not going to play, regardless of its quality. And more to the point, I won't buy the game either. You may have a different viewpoint on that, but that's valid up to the point it leaves your vicinity.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Personally, if the Glass Door commentary is valid (which I tend to believe), then SoE/Daybreak needed to lay off a bunch of the crew. The real question will be did they know enough to get rid of the proper ones.
It'll be interesting to see how things develop with EQN. I have no ax to grind one way or another, so I'll just wait and see what actually transpires.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Time, being a game thats mostly RD, that would be the biggest. From there is could be anthing right down to access to Novas resources, other companies. Heck for all we know, they may hire staff more in line with their current thinking. What they could spend money on really? Heck companies cut down on staff all the time and grow afterward. How many people work at your company does not equal success.
Everyone and every company has their success stories and failures. Point? Fact, they are one of the grandfathers of what made MMOing what it is today. Do they still have the chops? Waiting to see.
Im not saying something was added I am saying that we dont know. You keep pointing at the fact they said Nova gave them more resources but thats a lie because after that they laid people off and cut Storybricks. Question is what was added? We dont know if it was. In the end saying that statement is a lie is speculation unless you know for a fact they have nothing new added.
As for the 50% lay off and their inside source, I dont buy it. Im not saying they dont have a inside source. Im saying it means little. I can point to tweets where devs have replied to me directly and then claim to have an inside source. Heck people on this forum do that all the time. I dont buy it till I see facts backing up claims. I see none on this.
I was in the beta for 1.0 and played 2.0. The PC controls for 1.0 were atrocious and were greatly improved for 2.0. Most companies have always forced PC gamers to adapt to console based UI's, to the point that many give in and use controllers on their PC's. I don't give in on these kinds of games, I leave.
Are you saying you only play games that use a mouse and keyboard?
Yup - Wouldnt touch a gamepad or a console... Never will either..
Wow that's brutal. I can't even count how many amazing games you've missed out on. Entire genres, hell entire eras of gaming goodness. Arcades, pinball, fighting games, flight sticks, racing wheels, trackballs... That's really to bad.
Define things as 'Great!' and then denigrate for missing out on them. I could as easily call you to task for not skydiving: 'It's a huge rush, loads of fun, why didn't you invest the thousands into doing that??'
Many of those genres are not of interest to me. I don't like platformers. Or convoluted fighting games with their byzantine series of command moves for special attacks.
Thing is, if you offer support for a set of controls, the controls should work well. Many, many controller-centric games do not do this well. for M&K. If you are going to make every moment of a game an irritation or a pain, I am not going to play, regardless of its quality. And more to the point, I won't buy the game either. You may have a different viewpoint on that, but that's valid up to the point it leaves your vicinity.
I'm actually in agreement with you. I just prefer not to blame the hardware since it's not really the culprit for poor control. All you need to prove that is one game that does it right. Which has already occurred. So we know it is possible. So to say a controller doesn't work with MMOs is like saying birds don't fly because of penguins. Just because most devs don't bother to optimize for gamepads doesn't mean it doesn't work. It simply means those devs don't work. Because other devs have made it work quite well.
1] so you are speculating that this investment company bought SOE, fired a massive amount of developers (thus slowing development) in order to give SOE more time to develop? Then they might have access to some unnamed "resources" that might help in some unnamed way? Fired some of the staff from a company that you were just touting the long term experience in developing game in order to hire people who think in line with an investment company?
I appreciate that you attempted an answer, but again blind speculation that has no plausible base of reason.
Also I understand SOME companies hire/fire all the time, but we are not talking about nameless companies in a classroom discussion of textbooks. We are talking about SOE who has gone though several rounds of 100+ layoffs the last few years. Who has closed down multiple games, studios and projects. Again, you act like because anything is possible, what you suggest is somehow probable. Despite the evidence.
2] Fact, SOE had a successful game 16 years ago. Fact, for the last 10 years they have been dominated by failure without a real success to show for it. Do they still have chops, no.
3] I'm sure we do know that nothing was added. Why? A company in complete damage control would be crowing about the new improvements they have made in order offset all the very public setbacks and losses they have just had. Talk about tinfoil hat theories, you want to say there might have been something added, because there is no evidence of anything being added. Nonsense.
4] Nothing is stopping you from claiming anything, which you sort of do anyway. However, you are not a reputable new source are you? Sorry if you again want to believe something that flies in the face of facts, but that is your choice.
I really want you to understand that you are going way above and beyond to defend what is essentially corporate double speak damage control and trying to justify that by saying "anything is possible".
Based on the existing know available evidence, which do you think is more plausible.
1) SOE releases a great game in EQN
2) SOE releases another pre-alpha game that falls flat
They said in the video that they are working on the PC game first and said controller mapping would come later. =- But they do see both Landmark and EQN interface working with one. Not sure how they would do Landmark lol
What company ?!
They are bought and managed by an investment firm. Investment firm that deals in forceful armed takeovers of Oil digs.
The hell they know about games. They do know about numbers though.
"Cut outsourced technology. Savings , Fire 45% of workforce. Savings"
"Hey, but dont fire that PR guy yet. We need him to spin some bulshit for gullible kids. Just tell him to invent something. Perhaps that we suddenly developed next gen technology of our own"
"What in two weeks ?"
"Yeah...hehe. Trust me some of them are so dumb. They will buy anything PR says. Sad really..."