Evolution is a highly abused word. Much like feminism, equality, racism, socialism, conservatism, liberal, nazi, fascist, communism, patriotism...tossed around constantly to push an agenda, oh hey another abused word...agenda.
Game being made like x does not mean games like y are no longer viable, needed or wanted. The gaming industry isn't a market of one product type.
The MMO genre is merely expanding to a larger variety of styles...or is it?
Star Citizen is just a newer version of Eve.
Destiny is Tabula Rasa done right.
Making Diablo 3 an MMO is just natural progression of the multiplayer part 2. In fact, many of the newer MMO styles, the MOBA for example are their own genre's evolution from single player, to multiplayer to online MMO. It is THEIR genre that is evolving.
If you go back towards the beginning, the MMO genre had games VERY different from one another.
Meridian 59 and Ultima Online were little alike with 59 being a traditional 3D game and UO being isometric overhead yet both were full tilt PvP. EverQuest was D&D in a 3D setting with harsh death penalties and a person for the most part would get whipped by 2 mobs which was vastly different from the action combat of Asherons Call which was classless, you could gimp yourself but if you didn't you could take on 20 mobs without getting your backside handed to you...it was also open world with no zones (only dungeons were zoned). Both of these games had optional PvP and all 4 had very different combat, progression and crafting. Heck, in Asherons Call, if you didn't SEEK OUT the story by reading books/papers laying around you wouldn't even know it had one.
Go forward just a few years from these 4 MMOs and you end up with Anarchy Online, a futuristic MMO with a progression and crafting system that confused most with its complexity. Eve Online, a space MMO with a massive setting and complex systems unlike most games made since. DaoC, a faction war MMO...
The MMO genre wasn't as limiting as you think just because the last 7 years has been a WoW clone cluster eff.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Evolution is a highly abused word. Much like feminism, equality, racism, socialism, conservatism, liberal, nazi, fascist, communism, patriotism...tossed around constantly to push an agenda, oh hey another abused word...agenda.
Game being made like x does not mean games like y are no longer viable, needed or wanted. The gaming industry isn't a market of one product type.
The MMO genre is merely expanding to a larger variety of styles...or is it?
Star Citizen is just a newer version of Eve.
Destiny is Tabula Rasa done right.
Making Diablo 3 an MMO is just natural progression of the multiplayer part 2. In fact, many of the newer MMO styles, the MOBA for example are their own genre's evolution from single player, to multiplayer to online MMO. It is THEIR genre that is evolving.
If you go back towards the beginning, the MMO genre had games VERY different from one another.
Meridian 59 and Ultima Online were little alike with 59 being a traditional 3D game and UO being isometric overhead yet both were full tilt PvP. EverQuest was D&D in a 3D setting with harsh death penalties and a person for the most part would get whipped by 2 mobs which was vastly different from the action combat of Asherons Call which was classless, you could gimp yourself but if you didn't you could take on 20 mobs without getting your backside handed to you...it was also open world with no zones (only dungeons were zoned). Both of these games had optional PvP and all 4 had very different combat, progression and crafting. Heck, in Asherons Call, if you didn't SEEK OUT the story by reading books/papers laying around you wouldn't even know it had one.
Go forward just a few years from these 4 MMOs and you end up with Anarchy Online, a futuristic MMO with a progression and crafting system that confused most with its complexity. Eve Online, a space MMO with a massive setting and complex systems unlike most games made since. DaoC, a faction war MMO...
The MMO genre wasn't as limiting as you think just because the last 7 years has been a WoW clone cluster eff.
Actually evolution is very very appropriate word.
consider humans equivalent to WoW. There are strong indications that number of speicies is vestly smaller than it was before humans appeared and they continue to dissapear, while humanity yet has to witness actual evolution and cretion of new species.
WoW wiped out almost everything that was before, and those continue to die.
On MMOs there were many WoW clones but they all withered away, they evelved in a dead end, and there are some games that evolved and brought foundation for further evolution.
And yeah, its not for you to decide where evolution goes, and it usually doesnt take already rejected stuff along for the ride.
consider humans equivalent to WoW. There are strong indications that number of speicies is vestly smaller than it was before humans appeared and they continue to dissapear, while humanity yet has to witness actual evolution and cretion of new species.
WoW wiped out almost everything that was before, and those continue to die.
On MMOs there were many WoW clones but they all withered away, they evelved in a dead end, and there are some games that evolved and brought foundation for further evolution.
And yeah, its not for you to decide where evolution goes, and it usually doesnt take already rejected stuff along for the ride.
Oh yeah, it's happened before our eyes quite a bit actually. You just never seemed to have received the heads up. Evolution is truly an awesome thing to observe.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
consider humans equivalent to WoW. There are strong indications that number of speicies is vestly smaller than it was before humans appeared and they continue to dissapear, while humanity yet has to witness actual evolution and cretion of new species.
WoW wiped out almost everything that was before, and those continue to die.
On MMOs there were many WoW clones but they all withered away, they evelved in a dead end, and there are some games that evolved and brought foundation for further evolution.
And yeah, its not for you to decide where evolution goes, and it usually doesnt take already rejected stuff along for the ride.
Oh yeah, it's happened before our eyes quite a bit actually. You just never seemed to have received the heads up. Evolution is truly an awesome thing to observe.
Indeed. Not intending to derail the thread, but simply to illustrate your remark, Cecropia.. here's a link to 8 examples of evolution witnessed in action.
consider humans equivalent to WoW. There are strong indications that number of speicies is vestly smaller than it was before humans appeared and they continue to dissapear, while humanity yet has to witness actual evolution and cretion of new species.
WoW wiped out almost everything that was before, and those continue to die.
On MMOs there were many WoW clones but they all withered away, they evelved in a dead end, and there are some games that evolved and brought foundation for further evolution.
And yeah, its not for you to decide where evolution goes, and it usually doesnt take already rejected stuff along for the ride.
Oh yeah, it's happened before our eyes quite a bit actually. You just never seemed to have received the heads up. Evolution is truly an awesome thing to observe.
Indeed. Not intending to derail the thread, but simply to illustrate your remark, Cecropia.. here's a link to 8 examples of evolution witnessed in action.
Awesome stuff.
Thank you. Gives me something interesting to read while I have lunch.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Just as theres a problem with OP theres a problem with majority of posts, some even demanding to regress 15 years to REAL MMOs. they are throwing "requirements" for MMO to be MMO that have absolutely no relevance to term "MMO"So on one side you have you have bunch of posts that narrow the term to absurdity, on the other that broaden the term to absurdity.the truth is in the middle, and there ARE actual *gasp* evolved MMOs on the market.So the title of article IS truth, but arguments are not very good.
You talk about regression but we are already regressing. That's the whole problem. We are regressing to the point that 15 year old MMO's had more to offer on release than current games do years after release. Can you honestly tell me that there is a single game out there right now that contains ALL that EQ2, WoW, and others had on release?
Swtor launched with more content than wow did. Wildstar launched with more content than swg did.
This is proof that more isn't better. I lasted 18 minutes on WoW, and about 3 weeks on SWTOR
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
And no new SPECIES, just variation of EXISTING ones.
thats what happens when people dont read and comprehend
You haven't a clue what you're talking about, lol.
I'm not getting a ban for derailing this thread any further. You're a big boy and can do your own research which is quite friggin' easy now in 2015.
Good luck.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Evolution is a highly abused word. Much like feminism, equality, racism, socialism, conservatism, liberal, nazi, fascist, communism, patriotism...tossed around constantly to push an agenda, oh hey another abused word...agenda.
Game being made like x does not mean games like y are no longer viable, needed or wanted. The gaming industry isn't a market of one product type.
The MMO genre is merely expanding to a larger variety of styles...or is it?
Star Citizen is just a newer version of Eve.
Destiny is Tabula Rasa done right.
Making Diablo 3 an MMO is just natural progression of the multiplayer part 2. In fact, many of the newer MMO styles, the MOBA for example are their own genre's evolution from single player, to multiplayer to online MMO. It is THEIR genre that is evolving.
If you go back towards the beginning, the MMO genre had games VERY different from one another.
Meridian 59 and Ultima Online were little alike with 59 being a traditional 3D game and UO being isometric overhead yet both were full tilt PvP. EverQuest was D&D in a 3D setting with harsh death penalties and a person for the most part would get whipped by 2 mobs which was vastly different from the action combat of Asherons Call which was classless, you could gimp yourself but if you didn't you could take on 20 mobs without getting your backside handed to you...it was also open world with no zones (only dungeons were zoned). Both of these games had optional PvP and all 4 had very different combat, progression and crafting. Heck, in Asherons Call, if you didn't SEEK OUT the story by reading books/papers laying around you wouldn't even know it had one.
Go forward just a few years from these 4 MMOs and you end up with Anarchy Online, a futuristic MMO with a progression and crafting system that confused most with its complexity. Eve Online, a space MMO with a massive setting and complex systems unlike most games made since. DaoC, a faction war MMO...
The MMO genre wasn't as limiting as you think just because the last 7 years has been a WoW clone cluster eff.
Actually evolution is very very appropriate word.
consider humans equivalent to WoW. There are strong indications that number of speicies is vestly smaller than it was before humans appeared and they continue to dissapear, while humanity yet has to witness actual evolution and cretion of new species.
WoW wiped out almost everything that was before, and those continue to die.
On MMOs there were many WoW clones but they all withered away, they evelved in a dead end, and there are some games that evolved and brought foundation for further evolution.
And yeah, its not for you to decide where evolution goes, and it usually doesnt take already rejected stuff along for the ride.
Highlighted the parts you clearly chose to ignore to make your crazy statement...which proved I was right. Its a highly abused word that is mostly used incorrectly.
And no, WoW did not wipe out anything. most MMOs that were out before WoW are actually still running today. All WoW did was cause corporations to get into gaming and force many MMOs to fit the WoW mold and THAT is what is dieing today as can been seen in many of the current MMOs in production, breaking away from the cloning efforts.
It isn't MMOs that are evolving, its other genre's evolving into the MMO field which was very broad before WoW as I showed.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by Moirae Getting kind of tired of hearing people calling GW2 an MMO when it isn't. Yes, there are lots of other people on the servers. Truth is... so what. You don't have to talk to npc's or to other players at any time because all quests are automatically gained by walking around, and you automatically group so it doesn't matter. It is one of the least MMO MMO's that I've ever played.
You're actually serious? How could you say GW2 isn't an MMO? By that logic, you have to dismiss every other major MMO on the market too.
Just because you have the option to be in a group doesn't make it less of an MMO. I'm guessing any game that has world pvp'ing doesn't qualify as an MMO either, since you do not have to be required to group to kill people.
Since when did clicking NPC's and talking to others become a requirement? You're also wrong about GW2 on that also, since some NPC's require you to start their events.
If anything, your post just proves that the MMO genre actually evolved beyond the tradtional questing and interaction methods.
Originally posted by Moirae Getting kind of tired of hearing people calling GW2 an MMO when it isn't. Yes, there are lots of other people on the servers. Truth is... so what. You don't have to talk to npc's or to other players at any time because all quests are automatically gained by walking around, and you automatically group so it doesn't matter. It is one of the least MMO MMO's that I've ever played.
You're actually serious? How could you say GW2 isn't an MMO? By that logic, you have to dismiss every other major MMO on the market too.
Just because you have the option to be in a group doesn't make it less of an MMO. I'm guessing any game that has world pvp'ing doesn't qualify as an MMO either, since you do not have to be required to group to kill people.
Since when did clicking NPC's and talking to others become a requirement? You're also wrong about GW2 on that also, since some NPC's require you to start their events.
If anything, your post just proves that the MMO genre actually evolved beyond the tradtional questing and interaction methods.
Well in a way all major MMORPGs in last decade has been gradually becoming less and less MMO-ish.
There is less and less interdependency and less virtual world in basically every single one of them.
GW2 took just another step in same path. You just run around, and other people run around and you dps some mobs down standing next to each other and you get some kind of currency points for it.
Yeah GW2 experience felt like one of least MMO, least RPG and least virtual worldy MMORPG experiences I had in quite some time when I've played it.
Originally posted by Moirae Getting kind of tired of hearing people calling GW2 an MMO when it isn't. Yes, there are lots of other people on the servers. Truth is... so what. You don't have to talk to npc's or to other players at any time because all quests are automatically gained by walking around, and you automatically group so it doesn't matter. It is one of the least MMO MMO's that I've ever played.
You're actually serious? How could you say GW2 isn't an MMO? By that logic, you have to dismiss every other major MMO on the market too.
Just because you have the option to be in a group doesn't make it less of an MMO. I'm guessing any game that has world pvp'ing doesn't qualify as an MMO either, since you do not have to be required to group to kill people.
Since when did clicking NPC's and talking to others become a requirement? You're also wrong about GW2 on that also, since some NPC's require you to start their events.
If anything, your post just proves that the MMO genre actually evolved beyond the tradtional questing and interaction methods.
Well in a way all major MMORPGs in last decade has been gradually becoming less and less MMO-ish.
There is less and less interdependency and less virtual world in basically every single one of them.
GW2 took just another step in same path. You just run around, and other people run around and you dps some mobs down standing next to each other and you get some kind of currency points for it.
Yeah GW2 experience felt like one of least MMO, least RPG and least virtual worldy MMORPG experiences I had in quite some time when I've played it.
lol i would say that youre totally burned out on MMOs
so lets take this kind of thought on "real MMO"
you just run around, everyone else run around, you die on same mobs and quit playing
Originally posted by vidiotking MMOs are dead, they are not evolving at all. SWG was the pinnacle. It's been down hill ever since.
QFT
"MMOs" of today are just single player games in an MMO skin. There is nothing massive about them beside the amount of $$ made from the cash shops. They are nothing but cash cows for greedy devs and on the other hand of the spectrum you have underdeveloped, underfunded indy MMOs.
Just as theres a problem with OP theres a problem with majority of posts, some even demanding to regress 15 years to REAL MMOs. they are throwing "requirements" for MMO to be MMO that have absolutely no relevance to term "MMO"
So on one side you have you have bunch of posts that narrow the term to absurdity, on the other that broaden the term to absurdity.
the truth is in the middle, and there ARE actual *gasp* evolved MMOs on the market.
So the title of article IS truth, but arguments are not very good.
You talk about regression but we are already regressing. That's the whole problem. We are regressing to the point that 15 year old MMO's had more to offer on release than current games do years after release. Can you honestly tell me that there is a single game out there right now that contains ALL that EQ2, WoW, and others had on release?
ESO, Archeage, Wildstar, Crowfall (looks like). There's a few off the top of my head. Or did you forget what few features EQ2 and WoW had on release?
1. ESO doesn't have housing. It doesn't have a broker. EQ2 had both on release or within a month (I think housing was delayed a short time). And that's just to start and doesn't include any of the other 15 year old games. Next!!!
2. Archeage once again doesn't have housing and you can only get to top level by sub. I say it doesn't have housing because it has limited available plots and according to all reports, those plots were all taken within hours of release meaning not everyone can take part in it while no one has ever not been able to get a house in EQ2 so long as they could pay for it with in game currency. EQ was a sub game on release so getting to top level wasn't an issue. The game is also HIGHLY vulnerable to hacking on release. You cannot say the same about EQ2. And that's just to start and doesn't include any of the other 15 year old games. NEXT!!!
3, Wildstar is apparently boredom rife. Plus claims of it being a copy of wow. Bug ridden mess is another claim. While EQ2 had its issues, at least you couldn't say it was boring, or a copy of wow. I admit, EQ2 had bug problems on release but those bugs didn't make it crash to desktop every 5 minutes. And that's just to start and doesn't include any of the other 15 year old games. NEXT!!!
4. Don't even try to claim that a game that's not released can remotely compare to these old games. Games that aren't released make alot of claims, then once they are released you find that they can't live up to a single one of the claims.
So try again.
Did you play any of the games I mentioned? From the way you worded them and how you overlook all of the features they launched with have that EQ2 and WoW didn't have at launch, and the use of just flat out opinion used as fact, I don't think you really know what you are talking about with the examples provided.
If you are using actual experience and knowledge of the games, and not just "claims", then you are willfully ignorant of features a game possesses. Especially about Wildstar, none of that is right, or is opinion at best.
At any rate, this thread has gone well beyond it's usefulness. This is all about "All games that are not my game, are not MMORPGs"
I can fly higher than an aeroplane. And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes. Hurt - Wars
Comments
Evolution is a highly abused word. Much like feminism, equality, racism, socialism, conservatism, liberal, nazi, fascist, communism, patriotism...tossed around constantly to push an agenda, oh hey another abused word...agenda.
Game being made like x does not mean games like y are no longer viable, needed or wanted. The gaming industry isn't a market of one product type.
The MMO genre is merely expanding to a larger variety of styles...or is it?
Star Citizen is just a newer version of Eve.
Destiny is Tabula Rasa done right.
Making Diablo 3 an MMO is just natural progression of the multiplayer part 2. In fact, many of the newer MMO styles, the MOBA for example are their own genre's evolution from single player, to multiplayer to online MMO. It is THEIR genre that is evolving.
If you go back towards the beginning, the MMO genre had games VERY different from one another.
Meridian 59 and Ultima Online were little alike with 59 being a traditional 3D game and UO being isometric overhead yet both were full tilt PvP. EverQuest was D&D in a 3D setting with harsh death penalties and a person for the most part would get whipped by 2 mobs which was vastly different from the action combat of Asherons Call which was classless, you could gimp yourself but if you didn't you could take on 20 mobs without getting your backside handed to you...it was also open world with no zones (only dungeons were zoned). Both of these games had optional PvP and all 4 had very different combat, progression and crafting. Heck, in Asherons Call, if you didn't SEEK OUT the story by reading books/papers laying around you wouldn't even know it had one.
Go forward just a few years from these 4 MMOs and you end up with Anarchy Online, a futuristic MMO with a progression and crafting system that confused most with its complexity. Eve Online, a space MMO with a massive setting and complex systems unlike most games made since. DaoC, a faction war MMO...
The MMO genre wasn't as limiting as you think just because the last 7 years has been a WoW clone cluster eff.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Actually evolution is very very appropriate word.
consider humans equivalent to WoW. There are strong indications that number of speicies is vestly smaller than it was before humans appeared and they continue to dissapear, while humanity yet has to witness actual evolution and cretion of new species.
WoW wiped out almost everything that was before, and those continue to die.
On MMOs there were many WoW clones but they all withered away, they evelved in a dead end, and there are some games that evolved and brought foundation for further evolution.
And yeah, its not for you to decide where evolution goes, and it usually doesnt take already rejected stuff along for the ride.
Oh yeah, it's happened before our eyes quite a bit actually. You just never seemed to have received the heads up. Evolution is truly an awesome thing to observe.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Indeed. Not intending to derail the thread, but simply to illustrate your remark, Cecropia.. here's a link to 8 examples of evolution witnessed in action.
Awesome stuff.
Thank you. Gives me something interesting to read while I have lunch.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
And no new SPECIES, just variation of EXISTING ones.
thats what happens when people dont read and comprehend
This is proof that more isn't better. I lasted 18 minutes on WoW, and about 3 weeks on SWTOR
You haven't a clue what you're talking about, lol.
I'm not getting a ban for derailing this thread any further. You're a big boy and can do your own research which is quite friggin' easy now in 2015.
Good luck.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Highlighted the parts you clearly chose to ignore to make your crazy statement...which proved I was right. Its a highly abused word that is mostly used incorrectly.
And no, WoW did not wipe out anything. most MMOs that were out before WoW are actually still running today. All WoW did was cause corporations to get into gaming and force many MMOs to fit the WoW mold and THAT is what is dieing today as can been seen in many of the current MMOs in production, breaking away from the cloning efforts.
It isn't MMOs that are evolving, its other genre's evolving into the MMO field which was very broad before WoW as I showed.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
MMOs are not evolving. They are declining.
It is non-MMO Mutliplayer games that are still evolving, they never did stop evolving.
MMORPG.com and few other sites just try to conver non-mmo multiplayer and online games to try to save their viewership and ad revenue.
You're actually serious? How could you say GW2 isn't an MMO? By that logic, you have to dismiss every other major MMO on the market too.
Just because you have the option to be in a group doesn't make it less of an MMO. I'm guessing any game that has world pvp'ing doesn't qualify as an MMO either, since you do not have to be required to group to kill people.
Since when did clicking NPC's and talking to others become a requirement? You're also wrong about GW2 on that also, since some NPC's require you to start their events.
If anything, your post just proves that the MMO genre actually evolved beyond the tradtional questing and interaction methods.
Well in a way all major MMORPGs in last decade has been gradually becoming less and less MMO-ish.
There is less and less interdependency and less virtual world in basically every single one of them.
GW2 took just another step in same path. You just run around, and other people run around and you dps some mobs down standing next to each other and you get some kind of currency points for it.
Yeah GW2 experience felt like one of least MMO, least RPG and least virtual worldy MMORPG experiences I had in quite some time when I've played it.
lol i would say that youre totally burned out on MMOs
so lets take this kind of thought on "real MMO"
you just run around, everyone else run around, you die on same mobs and quit playing
QFT
"MMOs" of today are just single player games in an MMO skin. There is nothing massive about them beside the amount of $$ made from the cash shops. They are nothing but cash cows for greedy devs and on the other hand of the spectrum you have underdeveloped, underfunded indy MMOs.
My gaming blog
Did you play any of the games I mentioned? From the way you worded them and how you overlook all of the features they launched with have that EQ2 and WoW didn't have at launch, and the use of just flat out opinion used as fact, I don't think you really know what you are talking about with the examples provided.
If you are using actual experience and knowledge of the games, and not just "claims", then you are willfully ignorant of features a game possesses. Especially about Wildstar, none of that is right, or is opinion at best.
At any rate, this thread has gone well beyond it's usefulness. This is all about "All games that are not my game, are not MMORPGs"
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
Yeah, always treat the guy that tells you he has 'the truth' with caution and suspicion.
Look around maybe, see what he is really selling.
This was the website that, for years, ran the 'F2P is awesome for you!!' editorial line and that the 'truth' then was that the sub was 'dead'.
I wouldn't believe any 'truth' that's pushed around here much. At best it's all echo chamber derived fashionable received wisdom.