No-treadmill MMORPG with progression

NicholasB

I’m looking for a new MMORPG and have gone through quite a few (WoW, GW2, TESO, Rift).  I think the problem is that I want a game that provides progression, but I don’t like the moving goalposts (treadmill) that many modern MMOs use to provide this.  Let me try to explain in more detail.

 

When I started WoW, my first MMORPG, and was leveling I vastly enjoyed the concept of progress being made on each play session.  Every time I played I gained power (levels), wealth (money), and new items (usually gear).  I would play whenever I wanted, and even take a week or two off, and when I returned it felt like I picked up exactly where I left off.  This even continued into raiding, as we were in the ICC lull at the time.

 

Each new expansion, and every patch since, changed the dynamic.  Both patches and expansions bring massive inflation, which means wealth (in money) degrades over time.  Patches bring new gear, so any power gains only last for a few months before becoming obsolete, which means that power, too, degrades over time.  Even achievements of any sort follow this dynamic; official achieves are not tied to a specific level, so players can come back later to overpower them, degrading their meaning over time, and unofficial achievements degrade due to their link to wealth and power (saving up enough money to purchase an expensive mount is affected by inflation; collecting enough mounts to get the special-achieve-mount is affected by new mounts added to the game).  As a result it feels that all gains in modern MMORPGs degrade over time, which makes playing feel more like a maintenance task, and creates a feeling of agitation when you take a day or two away.

 

I’m sure there are many ways to solve this problem.  The most obvious is a game where leveling take 20 times as long as it does in WoW / GW2 / TESO / etc, power is scaled for old content, and inflation (of both money and power) is kept in check with any new additions to the game.  In other words, playing begins to feel more like progress on a long road again, and not like pushing a giant boulder up a steep hill that slides back down every time you stop to take a rest.  Can anyone recommend an MMORPG like this?  Does something like this exist?

 

Thanks.

Dakeru

Actually I am a poor sod on Gw2 but I have 1000 Laurel

Laurel can be traded for T6 Mats > T6 Mats only increase in value (will do so even more after HoT introduces craftable precursors)

So if you are about to take a break from Gw2 just put most of your money into T6.

You will return without finding your possessions to be worthless (unless Anet screws T6 up with some patch)

Kyleran

You should be playing EVE, never ending progression, yet almost everything you learn or do is relevant almost forever. Really nothing quite like it, which is why I keep coming back to it.

NicholasB

I actually did try Eve.  It seemed like it had a lot of potential reading about how all the systems worked.  But I couldn't get comfortable with the interface or controls.  I gave it about ten hours and then just gave up.  I think the final straw was when I looked at the auction house interface and it was just a tiny box of text without any useful information I could grasp.  Unfortunate...

GW2 I really enjoyed, but it avoids moving goalposts by seemingly not having any goalposts.  I hit 80 in less than a week which depressed me enough, but then once I got there I couldn't find anything to do except run dynamic events in Orr over and over again.  It sounded like fractals could provide some progression, but there was no guild finder or public chat, so I never ended up finding a guild or group to try that with.  I come back to GW2 on occasion just for the nostalgia, but can't really find enough 'meaning' there to call it home.

I guess I'm really looking for something similar to WoW, but with absolutely no catch-up mechanisms and a need to deck out in at least a few pieces of each tier before having a chance at the next one.  You'd have groups at every raiding tier, players moving at their own speed from one to another, and you couldn't just skip 90% of the work by waiting a few months (which gives that work and the associated achievement some meaning).  It would be awesome.  Not going to find it, huh?

 

Dakeru

Well you are contradicting yourself a little now. "Meaningful endgame" is always a kind of grind that keeps people playing to reach that goal as you say. That goal is gear grind most of the times.

You say you don't want to grind anymore but at the same time you don't like Gw2 for not having the grind.

Boneserino

Originally posted by NicholasB

I actually did try Eve.  It seemed like it had a lot of potential reading about how all the systems worked.  But I couldn't get comfortable with the interface or controls.  I gave it about ten hours and then just gave up.  I think the final straw was when I looked at the auction house interface and it was just a tiny box of text without any useful information I could grasp.  Unfortunate...

GW2 I really enjoyed, but it avoids moving goalposts by seemingly not having any goalposts.  I hit 80 in less than a week which depressed me enough, but then once I got there I couldn't find anything to do except run dynamic events in Orr over and over again.  It sounded like fractals could provide some progression, but there was no guild finder or public chat, so I never ended up finding a guild or group to try that with.  I come back to GW2 on occasion just for the nostalgia, but can't really find enough 'meaning' there to call it home.

I guess I'm really looking for something similar to WoW, but with absolutely no catch-up mechanisms and a need to deck out in at least a few pieces of each tier before having a chance at the next one.  You'd have groups at every raiding tier, players moving at their own speed from one to another, and you couldn't just skip 90% of the work by waiting a few months (which gives that work and the associated achievement some meaning).  It would be awesome.  Not going to find it, huh?

 

The only thing that will keep a content locust like you happy is WoW 2.   None of today's games have enough content to last you more than that week.

 

Might have to wait a while for that.

 

Or you could try slowing down and look for other things to do besides leveling.   Expand your game horizons a little and see what happens.

Bladestrom

In gw2 it takes about 100 hours on average to level to max if you played in the manner that you talk about, I.e enjoying the journey, not seeking fast tracking, enjoying the storylines rather than maxing xp. Unfortunately if you rush yoh reap what you sow- no engagement with the world, no immersion and everything rmushing by too fast. Think back to classic vanilla wow - no one rushed then, it took months to complete and wax richer for it. Blizzard now disrespects their very own heritage by turning it into an xp farm function.

Kajidourden

They don't exist anymore.

fivoroth

Why don't you play vanilla wow?

Kyleran

Originally posted by NicholasB

I actually did try Eve.  It seemed like it had a lot of potential reading about how all the systems worked.  But I couldn't get comfortable with the interface or controls.  I gave it about ten hours and then just gave up.  I think the final straw was when I looked at the auction house interface and it was just a tiny box of text without any useful information I could grasp.  Unfortunate...

GW2 I really enjoyed, but it avoids moving goalposts by seemingly not having any goalposts.  I hit 80 in less than a week which depressed me enough, but then once I got there I couldn't find anything to do except run dynamic events in Orr over and over again.  It sounded like fractals could provide some progression, but there was no guild finder or public chat, so I never ended up finding a guild or group to try that with.  I come back to GW2 on occasion just for the nostalgia, but can't really find enough 'meaning' there to call it home.

I guess I'm really looking for something similar to WoW, but with absolutely no catch-up mechanisms and a need to deck out in at least a few pieces of each tier before having a chance at the next one.  You'd have groups at every raiding tier, players moving at their own speed from one to another, and you couldn't just skip 90% of the work by waiting a few months (which gives that work and the associated achievement some meaning).  It would be awesome.  Not going to find it, huh?

 

EVE requires a lot of outside reading and study in order to fully comprehend it's interfaces and systems.

In your "auction house" example, you are referring to the Market Place, and you would want to first start with a basic guide such as this one:

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Market_guide

Then depending on your focus, you would learn to use tools such as the EVE Market Aggregator

https://eve-central.com/

or market tool

http://eve-market.com/

EVE is well deserving of the the reputation of having one of the steepest learning curves in the genre, and it's not for everyone.

You could spend hundreds of hours studying EVE, and still have hundreds more to still learn.

I've been playing EVE for a very long time, yet have barely scratched the surface in terms of what there is to know.

 

Zontas_Hierospirit

Originally posted by Kajidourden
They don't exist anymore.

The Western MMORPGs do not exist anymore due to people more and more having no courage to stick their necks out for what they actually believe in. All it would take to bring the MMORPG as we used to know it out of the sea that the ship is sinking into is for the game developers to stand up and stop being ashamed of God. They allow the easterners to commit suicide by having their non-stop gaming binges, and our westerners joining their game addiction recovery centers, their teamspeak rages, and forum postings, to get the better of their artistic integrity, and they run to not be sued. That's what happened. All it would take is a God believing dev team to take responsibility for the genre and put it back out there for the people. The people would have to take responsibility, too, and stop blaming their addictions on the devs, but sometimes the devs just have to stand up to the players no matter what they're doing.

Asgrim

Wow. Time to lay off the Kool-Aid dude.

Hrimnir

Originally posted by NicholasB

I’m looking for a new MMORPG and have gone through quite a few (WoW, GW2, TESO, Rift).  I think the problem is that I want a game that provides progression, but I don’t like the moving goalposts (treadmill) that many modern MMOs use to provide this.  Let me try to explain in more detail.

 

When I started WoW, my first MMORPG, and was leveling I vastly enjoyed the concept of progress being made on each play session.  Every time I played I gained power (levels), wealth (money), and new items (usually gear).  I would play whenever I wanted, and even take a week or two off, and when I returned it felt like I picked up exactly where I left off.  This even continued into raiding, as we were in the ICC lull at the time.

 

Each new expansion, and every patch since, changed the dynamic.  Both patches and expansions bring massive inflation, which means wealth (in money) degrades over time.  Patches bring new gear, so any power gains only last for a few months before becoming obsolete, which means that power, too, degrades over time.  Even achievements of any sort follow this dynamic; official achieves are not tied to a specific level, so players can come back later to overpower them, degrading their meaning over time, and unofficial achievements degrade due to their link to wealth and power (saving up enough money to purchase an expensive mount is affected by inflation; collecting enough mounts to get the special-achieve-mount is affected by new mounts added to the game).  As a result it feels that all gains in modern MMORPGs degrade over time, which makes playing feel more like a maintenance task, and creates a feeling of agitation when you take a day or two away.

 

I’m sure there are many ways to solve this problem.  The most obvious is a game where leveling take 20 times as long as it does in WoW / GW2 / TESO / etc, power is scaled for old content, and inflation (of both money and power) is kept in check with any new additions to the game.  In other words, playing begins to feel more like progress on a long road again, and not like pushing a giant boulder up a steep hill that slides back down every time you stop to take a rest.  Can anyone recommend an MMORPG like this?  Does something like this exist?

 

Thanks.

The game you are looking for was called EverQuest and came out in 1999.  Unfortunately there is no modern day equivalent.  Welcome to the club.  That club being people who want real MMORPG's and not solo disneyquest participation trophy faceroll games.  Unfortunately its unlikely things are going to change.

Only possible game on the horizon that might interest you is Pantheon: ROTF, but, thats a small indy project and may never see the light of day.

Hrimnir

Originally posted by Dakeru

Well you are contradicting yourself a little now. "Meaningful endgame" is always a kind of grind that keeps people playing to reach that goal as you say. That goal is gear grind most of the times.

You say you don't want to grind anymore but at the same time you don't like Gw2 for not having the grind.

ts actually quite simple, he didnt say he doesnt want gear grind, he said he doesn't want the grind he invested to be invalidated due to a patch or expansion.

In WOW every time an expansion came out the slate was wiped clean.  You could have had endgame, Best in Slot in every slot, and you would get green quest reward items that are better than your previous raid BiS stuff only a few levels into the new cap.

Everquest did things different, a weapon might be say 14dmg 25delay at the top end, and when an expansion came out, the new bestest weapon might be 14dmg 20 delay, or 15dmg 21 delay, etc.  So, clearly better, clearly worth working towards, but you're previous stuff was still revelant.

In WoW and modern MMOs they want to appease the casuals and not the people who invest effort into the game so they wipe it all clean with every expac so everyone starts on roughly equal footing.  Sounds like a good idea in practice, but it does make a lot of people annoyed or angry.

It would be like your father telling you if you get your bachelors degree he will buy you a porsche, and then when you get your bachelors he says, nah, you need your master's before i buy the porsche, so you go get your masters, and now he says nah, you need a PHD.  So you do that, and he says, well, you got the PHD in physics, you need one in Chemistry before i buy you the porsche.  If your ultimate goal is the porsche, and the person providing that reward keeps moving the goal posts, it invalidates your previous acheivements/effort.

Hrimnir

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by Boneserino

The only thing that will keep a content locust like you happy is WoW 2.   None of today's games have enough content to last you more than that week.

 

That made me chuckle - so wrong

The funny part is OP is not a content locust, content locusts are what caused what the OP is complaining about.

FuryV

Meaningful progression and levels?

 

http://www.runescape.com

Hrimnir

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Originally posted by Dakeru

Well you are contradicting yourself a little now. "Meaningful endgame" is always a kind of grind that keeps people playing to reach that goal as you say. That goal is gear grind most of the times.

You say you don't want to grind anymore but at the same time you don't like Gw2 for not having the grind.

*snip*

Yep but EQ1 weapons could only lag behind a single expansion, if you were 2 or more expansion behind - it was bad.

For many who started after EQ1 has been out for 4+ years - their gear was an absolute joke.

EQ1 over the last 15 years has experienced RIDICULOUS inflation of power by gear and levels, and AA

Its still a better system than wow and rift and many other wow clones, where an expansion comes out and 100% invalidates ALL of your previous efforts.

NomadMorlock

There is only one game I know of which has released an expansion that didn't make the previous gear (pvp or pve) less valuable.

 

Age of Conan.  It's an older game but still quite a bit of content and has held up over the years fairly well.  I was always impressed how they could release such a large expansion and keep the previous gear relevant. 

 

I have personally experienced all it has to offer but if you have never tried it you can do so for free up to max level with few restrictions.