Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Which skill advancement system do you prefer: 24/7 Real-Time or Online Time only?

ClovisClovis Member Posts: 16

I'm a former UO, EQ, EQ2 player who decided to check out Eve-Online. I have to admit that I do like being able to train a skill while out-of-game. As someone with a busy RL and who gets way too addicted to these games, it's easier for me to turn the PC off knowing there is still some sort of progress going on. Those who are online more are still far superior players, but I like having some sort of compensation for players who stick with the game over a long period of time, even if they can only squeeze in an hour a day. Is Eve-Online the only game with this sort of skill advancement? At any rate, please put your 2 cents in.

«1

Comments

  • WillJones420WillJones420 Member Posts: 263

    Depends. Certain options would be nice if they were available, such as leaving your char in the tutalage of a trainer and getting trained offline that way would be cool. Training in swords or increasing blacksmithing or other weapons or tradeskills would be a keen idea in my book. The only thing is that it should take a long time for a skill to be completed. Hours for lower skill levels and days for higher ones. Would also be a good idea to say that if you leave the skill trainer before they're done with you, you'll have to start all over again when you come back, maybe something less harsh. Just do something so people can't abuse the system.

  • PuoltryPuoltry Member Posts: 956

    When i played EvE i found myself in a mental trap.The lower tier skills were fairly short timewise to train.What i found though was as i went along and got over the million skill point barrier that the upper tier skills took much longer.
    So i found my self NOT wanting to play a character until the skill itself was trained fully.Sure i could do other things until it was done but chose not to i guess.For the skill in question it was trained in some thing like 27 days give or take a few.
    Actually offline skill training is pure genius imho.I wish more mmo's would adopt this method for casual players than dumbing down the entire genre.I just dont think when it takes less than 5 months to reach level 60 in a game that its good for the genre or a community in general.

    Want to ENJOY an mmo?

    Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.

    Just play the damn game:)

  • zethcarnzethcarn Member UncommonPosts: 1,558
    Offline training just seems dumb, unrealistic, and lazy.  Not to mention a good scam for keeping people subscribed to your game longer.  Btw, I hate Eve Online,  I think the game is total crap.
  • _myko_myko Member Posts: 333

    i think realtime is fine as long as individual skills don't take more than say a week to train. Past that they start getting annoying especially when 'balancing' is happening a lot.

    ---sig---

    PvE in general is pretty lame, if you think long and hard about it. You are spending your time beating a severely gimped AI that would lose to a well trained monkey. Best not to think too long and hard why you are wasting time playing games in general actually...

  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201

    The idea has superb merits. It blurs the line just a tad between the hardcore 20-hour-a-day players and the casual players just a tad, though any hardcore player will still be able to outproduce a casual player through experience and ISK-hoarding.

    But I do find the idea all by itself to be somewhat lacking. I find that rewards for direct action are still very powerful. I would love to see a hybrid system, something along the lines of having to offline learn a skill that takes a few days or weeks to learn, which would then enable a set of talents/traits/abilities to be learned through actions which can be improved upon through direct action (UO-style system).

    In fact, I wouldn't mind having that kind of system require that the offline skill be literally learned offline, logged out at the research center or library. Just as EVE does, disallow multiple offline skill gains by alts. But while in game there are still plenty of direct talents/traits/abilities (unlocked by offline training).

  • DremvekDremvek Member UncommonPosts: 160

    I guess I would prefer a hybrid system, where I could advance faster if I played, but still advanced some when I wasn't online. The problem with EVE is that right now, there is no way for a new player to EVER remotely catch up to someone who's been there for over a year. You are permanently gimped. They can fly better ships, use better weapons, do better research, pretty much be better at everything, and there is nothing a new player can ever do to begin to bridge that gap.

    It was really frustrating starting out seeing all of the skills I needed to do things, and not being able to do anything but wait to accelerate my training.

  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201


    Originally posted by Dremvek
    I guess I would prefer a hybrid system, where I could advance faster if I played, but still advanced some when I wasn't online. The problem with EVE is that right now, there is no way for a new player to EVER remotely catch up to someone who's been there for over a year. You are permanently gimped. They can fly better ships, use better weapons, do better research, pretty much be better at everything, and there is nothing a new player can ever do to begin to bridge that gap.

    Once you learn how to fly a top ship with the top guns, a process that will probably take you about a month, maybe more, there's nothing you can do to improve that skillbase. In other words, a two year player will only have the ability to fly more variations of configurations than you. But you will still be a competitive player with powerful skills.

  • bobblerbobbler Member UncommonPosts: 810


    Originally posted by zethcarn
    Offline training just seems dumb, unrealistic, and lazy. Not to mention a good scam for keeping people subscribed to your game longer. Btw, I hate Eve Online, I think the game is total crap.

    your just a fanboy >_> anyways i think them system is great but at level 4it got long

    image

  • fizzle32fizzle32 Member Posts: 171

    You use your skills, make big money, buy very expensive implants, stick em in your head, boom suddenly you train faster, your ship turns faster, you gain an extra % to some ability, so players who have alot of time to play can advance by using their skills to make money to get implants.

    Even the monthlong skills I hardly really notice, because I train long skills when I am logged off.

    When I login, I train short skills that can be done in hours, when I'm about to log, I switch to my long skill and log.

    If it wasn't for the monthlong skills, I wouldn't know what to train when logging off. I would have to log back in a few hours later to switch training to another short skilll, this way I always have a long skill training unless there's a short skill that I need, in which case the short skill gets precedence.

    What would you rather have %5 more to mining in 30 minutes, or %5 more cargo room in your hauler in 30 days.

    Easy choice. The hauler skill is a long term goal, its a luxury thats nice to have that extra %5, but you dont really need it, you can train it by default when you log, because you are guaranteed to progress without needing to change training, so you can focus on RL without the game getting in the way.

    Eve owns. It just does.

  • pyros98pyros98 Member Posts: 267

    EVE has the 24/7 skill system implemented to perfection.  It fit the storyline and the game mechanics beautifully. 

    Other MMO's would have a hard time implementing this...especially if they're a medieval fantasy MMO.

  • tricontricon Member Posts: 141
    I too will prefer to have a hybrid system where players can choose to train their skills or sell their wares even when offline. Just like the feeling of seeing the ingame money grow when your are offline.image

    The Best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time.

  • ElapsedElapsed Member UncommonPosts: 2,329

    What is the point of an online system? It encourages people to go AFK and/or macro.

    24/7 would allow players to just log in and have their fun whenever and however long they want.

    However I'm not sure how to properly balance a 24/7 system (ie. time to advance, steepness of the curve, and where to set the cap). I think MEO is going to use this system? It will be interesting to see how Turbine handles it.

  • misubecymisubecy Member Posts: 29


    ::::38:: I think it really depends of what the player prefer but both of that will do..Both of that have their own advantages and disadvantages that a player really know..It really DEPENDS!!!::::36::

  • n2soonersn2sooners Member UncommonPosts: 926

    One rewards you for playing the game more. The other rewards you for just being subscribed longer. The second sounds like a scam from the gaming companies to me to make people pay longer but pay less. I prefer the one that rewards you for playing, not paying.

    The above that reads "pay longer but pay less" should read "pay longer but play less."

    image image

  • JenuvielJenuviel Member Posts: 960

    I think a real-time system can only really work in a game targeted towards the Social and Explorer segments. While I'm sure there are exceptions, the vast majority of Achievers I've met have gained enjoyment from getting those "dings" as a result of expended effort. If you play the game to experience character growth as a result of your actions, then real-time skill/level advancement isn't going to give you any reason to log on. At most, it will have you logging on only to try out the new skill you've learned after being offline for a week.

    I began subscribing to EVE online about three days after I started the free trial. I found the complexity to be a very nice change. The closer I get to those skills that require 20 days of real time (480+ hours for tier 1 skills) to learn, however, the nearer I find my mouse edging toward the cancellation button. I've found more and more often lately that I'm sitting around watching television when I get home from work, rather than playing the game. I'm logged in, but I have an industrial hauler parked in front of an asteroid digging ore while I watch a sitcom rerun. Why would that be?

    I remember downloading the trial so I'd have something engaging to do instead of watching television. The answer is that actually playing the game provides nothing more than a few extra isk (dollars) or loyalty points than could be gained if you were doing something else. The time you spend means next to nothing, so the person who plays for achievements has next to nothing to achieve. Sure, you can join a corporation, take part in pvp, haul electronics from one end of the galaxy to the other, but nothing you do will actually result in any character growth whatsoever with the exception of buying implants (which are immediately destroyed upon death anyway).

    Achievers like to invest their time wisely and see their character rewarded based on the strength of their investment. Abstract forms of achievement such as NPC social status, owned property/objects, and money only go so far; they're the butter on the potato, not the potato itself. The butter will hold your interest for a moment, but eventually it just won't be enough. That said, as long as game with real-time advancement is able to make a profit while ignoring Achievers, that game can be successful in a niche market. EVE's peak of 13000ish players during primtime on its one server seems to be about the limit of that success at this time. Real-time advancement is certainly an interesting concept, but one with limited appeal. Fortunately, the market it saturated with the more traditional model, so that limited appeal can still find room to breathe.

  • XanothXanoth Member UncommonPosts: 116

    As its been mentioned, players need a reason to... well PLAY, but i think some kind of offline progress could work, but what that progress is really does matter, and should never be comparable to actually playing (although i think the way eve is designed, it pulls it off really well, most MMO's cant really do that, for a start eve is more conceptual, so your a ship, rather than a person, makes the pill a little easier to swollow).

     

    Imagine if a game like EQ2 had 24/7 leveling, and leveled while you where off.  you'd come back to find new abilities on your hot bar and have no idea what they did.  mebies you where away for a few days and you come back and are now several levels higher.  its not ever going to work for a game of this style, but there are ways in which it could

     

    lets try mixing the sims with a more traditional MMORPG...

    your character does more than just level, you dont just gain everything by leveling, but by doing, and being active.  oviously you have a life to live, and cant be there to baby sit your character 24/7. but if they sit about doing nothing, you might find yourself logging back into to a fat couch potato that no longer fits into his plate mail. under this styling, you could have your character train while your away, in their own home or whatever, they could either just work out, or practice that sword arm on a training dummy.

    over time you could remove ALL NPC's and replace them with offline/online players, togling between modes, still being able to engage in the style of game the player decides uppon.

     

    so in short, it really does deppend if the style of game can fit a 24/7 system into it.  EVE was most likely designed for one, and with that in mind from the beginning, and thats the only way anything ever works just right.

    o/
  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    I think it would be pretty easy to developp MANY independants systems inside 1 game.  I favor a system where you need to do everything myself.  But I see no reason to prevent a 24/7 parallel system, I would prolly spend 5-10 minutes per day in the system my toon work alone, and mostly play the other.

     

    As long as the 2 systems are not strongly linked and are well apart and not really in competition or affecting each others, they both can progress and developp.

     

    As long as tradeskills have nothing to do in the adventuring process, I really dont mind that much.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • fizzle32fizzle32 Member Posts: 171

    I began subscribing to EVE online about three days after I started the free trial. I found the complexity to be a very nice change. The closer I get to those skills that require 20 days of real time (480+ hours for tier 1 skills) to learn, however, the nearer I find my mouse edging toward the cancellation button. I've found more and more often lately that I'm sitting around watching television when I get home from work, rather than playing the game. I'm logged in, but I have an industrial hauler parked in front of an asteroid digging ore while I watch a sitcom rerun. Why would that be?
    ====

    In other games, your character development is the potato, and your social status and community relations are tthe butter.

    In Eve, you are not the star of the game. Your Corporation is everything, the potato is being able to carve a chunk of the galaxy and CLAIM it, "hey man, this place is MINE", people aren't judged invidivually, they are judged by their corp tag, if you see [mOo] or [Evol] next to someone's name, that right there is respect, if you are incompetent they will kick you, so you know you are dealing with a top notch entity.

    The politics, backstabbing, non-aggression pacts, alliances, and hunting with your friends, that is the central crux of the game, it is the entire reason you should be playing.

    Your skills, on the other hand, are a TOOL, your character development is secondary to your real knowledge of the game, and of your real friendships and acquantances, you could make a 250k skill point alt and be hunting with your friends on the first month of the game, but no, we have 10 million skill point people sitting in Empire, in total safety, mining asteroids and only logging in to see the [Astrogeology level 5] in their skills tab.

    There are people who simply understand this game, and people who don't.

    The ones who do understand are usually out in 0.0 making millions their first week, the ones who don't are still mining Veldspar 6 months later and totally afraid to venture out in fear of "gankers."

    If you want to get ANYTHING out of Eve then you MUST be part of something, this is totally not a solo game, otherwise you end up doing the same thing the guy I'm quoting above, afk mining in empire.

    For the sake of your sanity, ask for help on the forums, say "I am a carebear and want to experience the game, please help me", someone will take you by the hand, teach you what you need to know, and you will finally have fun in the game. Ask for help before it's too late.

  • pinkdaisypinkdaisy Member CommonPosts: 361

    I do like the fact that EVE did something different.  MMOs are in much need of innovation and EVE has done alot to further things along (this is relative to other MMOs).  That being said, i don't care much fo the 24/7 training system. 

    • It creates a system where those who started playing first will always have the highest skill set.  All other games without permadeath (which is pretty much all of them) have the same problem, but it's worse in EVE because early players can stay in the lead indefinitely.
    • Raph Koster (creative director for UO and SWG) talks about "barriers to exit" from a game.  One of the strong ones are the social ties players develop in games.  Those ties can be taken outside of the context of a given game.  Things like player housing keep them coming back.  The offline skill training removes a barrier to exiting because players aren't actually required to play.  I ran a 70+ member corp in EVE and we had players who got to the point where they only logged in just to set skills;  they didn't play the game.  I remember one corp member in particular who did this for months.  While this might be good for generating revenue, it doesn't do anything to help build the strength of the community.
    • Also, their skill system creates "jack of all trade" characters in the end.  Players eventually DO learn all the skills ingame.  When a player can fly battleships, indys, produce goods, conduct research, and everything else of interest, it lessens the dependance on other players in the game.  Many players say they want to be able to do everything with a single character.  The less player interaction, the less robust the community and the other player generated content.  We should be doing more to encourage interaction (social, economic, political, combat, whatever), not less.  The jack of all trades syndrome isn't as bad in EVE as it is in other games, because although a player can be skilled at everything, their current "usable" skills are limited in large part by what ship they are flying.

    Allowing players to create buy/sell orders (EVE allows this as well) is another way that players can "advance" without being ingame.  I'm not one for perfect balance in games, but if you allow or deny offline skill advancement, should the same be done with offline economic advancement?

    PD

    www.TheChippedDagger.com My 90-day 2D Java MMORPG project

    They that can give up essential liberty for temporary safetey deserve neither. -- Ben Franklin
    If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door. -- Milton Berle

  • KazeredKazered Member Posts: 37



    I think a mix is best. example: Online Skill Training progresses at 100% rate of skill gain. Offline is 50%.
    Then if you arn't a powergamer, you will still advance at a decent rate.


    My2scents

    Kazer
    "Baning Smokers from public places is like baning people from water who like to pee."

  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Member RarePosts: 4,006

    i played EVE for about 3 months.

    the real time skill system on EVE is the only thing i hate about the game.

    At first the real time system was great, but those higher end rank 2 or 3 skills take weeks around level 4-5 to train. Even though i spent the first month basically just training learning skills. It's just too damn long.

    14-20 days to train one skill...please...image

     

    Note: this is probably not the best place to be asking this question. the EVE fanboys are crawling all over MMORPG.com heheh. i think the voting will be slightly biased.

    peace

    Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!

  • ElapsedElapsed Member UncommonPosts: 2,329


    Originally posted by pinkdaisy

    [*]It creates a system where those who started playing first will always have the highest skill set.  All other games without permadeath (which is pretty much all of them) have the same problem, but it's worse in EVE because early players can stay in the lead indefinitely.

    That's why there would have to be a cap or an extremely steep curve to the point that it doesn't really even matter after a certain point. With a steep curve the longest players will still be ahead but lets say only by one or two skill points that don't even make much of a difference in how "uber" the character is. It's probably the best solution becaues it gives players always something to look forward to but doesn't completely unbalance the game.

    For example, say it takes 3 months to go from level 1 to 25. Then 6 months to go from 25 to 28. Then 12 months to go from 28 to 30 and hopefully a level 30 players vs. a 25 player would be fairly close fight. Let's say the 25 player could win if he was better equipped. That's just a quick rough idea, I'm sure there's a lot of other factors to consider and maybe the rate of advancement is still too fast. It seems like it would be difficult to get a 24/7 system fair.

  • pyros98pyros98 Member Posts: 267

    A person that has only played for 2-3 months can easily compete with the players that have been around since May '03 in EVE.  I've seen it done. 

    And in any game, be it UO, WoW, EQ, or what have you...the players that started out sooner will have the edge in items, money, and to a lesser extent tactics (this depends on the person). 

     

  • JenuvielJenuviel Member Posts: 960


    There are people who simply understand this game, and people who don't.

    The ones who do understand are usually out in 0.0 making millions their first week, the ones who don't are still mining Veldspar 6 months later and totally afraid to venture out in fear of "gankers."

    If you want to get ANYTHING out of Eve then you MUST be part of something, this is totally not a solo game, otherwise you end up doing the same thing the guy I'm quoting above, afk mining in empire.

    For the sake of your sanity, ask for help on the forums, say "I am a carebear and want to experience the game, please help me", someone will take you by the hand, teach you what you need to know, and you will finally have fun in the game. Ask for help before it's too late.


    So, Fizzle, what you're saying is that there's a right way to play the game, and there's a wrong way to play the game; your way is the right way, and my way is the wrong way. Okay, I can accept that. Not everyone enjoys the same things, and not every game can be for every player. If what you say is true, then I'm clearly in the wrong place and I should just move on without complaint. Not a problem, except it does explain why EVE's population is as low as it is. The "right" way to play is clearly not a terribly popular way to play. There's nothing wrong with that, either. Before you run around calling people carebears in need of handholding, however, at least have the presence of mind to realize the irony of telling me it's a game about joining together in a social experience just before you lob unprovoked insults at me.

    The only reason I posted on this thread was to express a point of view. I made no attacks, only observations. At no point did I say that EVE was an inferior game, simply that it was a game of limited appeal to people who enjoy the things I do in MMOs. The fact of the matter remains that EVE is the first game I've ever found myself playing semi-afk at all, and that's coming from someone who played Asheron's Call for 4 years and SWG for 1 year. Clearly the game is an acquired taste meant for someone with a very different palate than mine. If you wouldn't mind, though, please put your bag of condescension away; I wasn't poking your mother with a stick, I was providing feedback on a game in a thread that asked for...wait for it...feedback. If you'd like to argue the merits of the game and the faults of my gameplay style, let's take it over to the EVE board. At least we'll be uninterrupted there. ::::35::

    Cheers

  • fizzle32fizzle32 Member Posts: 171

    A new player can get 4/5 in all the things they want in one-fifth of the time it would take to get everything to 5/5.

    You can catch up with 2 year old players in 1 department.

    Someone can have 25 million SP, but you can be a hardcore miner in 2 months flat with around 2 million SP.

    You won't catch up in SP but you will catch up in 1 department.

    Also training everything in the game would take about 7 years (and they're adding new skills next month) so even the oldest players can only be specialised in 1 or 2 things. I have met hardcore industrialists with 23 million SP that got ganked and podkilled by a 2 month old newbie pirate. You have month-old noobs in 0.0 mining bistot, and you got 2 year veterans sitting in Empire mining Veldspar.

    The difference is not SP, it is knowledge of how to operate, who owns which areas, how to spot a gategank, being able to see who is in a system and recognize names "oh these are bad dudes", what to do to escape a gategank, how to avoid getting your pod killed, and most importantly a good set of bookmarks. It is almost impossible to kill someone who does not want to fight.

    Jen : It's not "my" way of playing Eve, I did not invent it, there is a way to eat lobster and there is a way to enjoy Eve. Some parts are a pain in the butt certainly, but the sweet spot is so sweet that its easy to forget the bad side. I don't like being ganked anymore than you do, I don't enjoy being cussed at in local, I don't enjoy people camping our base, I don't enjoy losing wars, I don't enjoy having to leave my corporation because it cant defend itself. Eve is a shark tank. Sometimes you are the windshield, and sometimes you are the bug. The key to enjoying Eve is to hook up with people who have strong knowledge of the game, who can pass that knowledge down to you, who can hunt with you, who can watch your back, and with whom you can commisserate in base when you both get raped at least you have a shoulder to cry on.

    IMO thats what makes a great game, is when you have real emotions, it make you FEEL something. In WoW I don't give two crap if I die, I just come back in 2 minutes and kick your ass, then you run back in 2 minutes and we fight again.

    In Eve you don't just lose your ship, you're not fighting for yourself, if your corp does not pull together and fight as one unit, you can lose your HOME. Your freaking HOME. Your character is just a resource for your corp, and your ship is just a resource for you, to support their claim on a base or a region along with your allies. Throwing people together like this quickly creates a comeraderie that you cannot find anywhere else, you are like a band of brothers, if someone else muscles in, you are all going to have to vacate the premises like thieves in the night, and let the hyenas have it, maybe start over fresh somewhere else, or maybe there will be bitterness and people will quit the corp, maybe even join your competitor.

    Empire is not meant to be a place you stay forever.

    It is meant to be a place where, if you lose everything, your ships, your corp, all your possessions, you can always sneak back to Empire in your rookieship, and lick your wounds for a few weeks, and build up your wallet to make another run at greatness.

    That is the soul, the essence of Eve.

    It is NOT Everquest in space. If you play it like Everquest you will get nothing out of it and believe me I am the biggest carebear. I dont even like to shoot pods, unless the person starts cursing at me, but I can still contribute to a player-run empire in space so they let me stay.

    Thats what its all about. Community.

    We have the best community. Ppl will drop everything to help you (or hurt you) but first you have to ask, theres numerous "Academy" type corporations that will spend time and money buying you ships, teaching you how to operate, and eventually they will let you into their 0.0 area to eat a mouthful of rich ore, make big money for a change.

    But the first step starts with you. Eve is for anybody that can adapt and overcome. I agree it is a very HARD game. This is not WoW, this is not Everquest, there is no NPC dragon just waiting to get its a$$ kicked, you will not be successful just by "being here" for a long time. I guarantee you that if you sign up for 2 years, and just afk mine in Empire, and amass 25 million SP, you will still get raped if you have an afk-miner mindset.

    Anyway enjoy your games, whichever ones you play.

Sign In or Register to comment.