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why don't more MMOs use dungeon scaling
Ecoces
Member UncommonPosts: 879
You see this all the time in ARPGs like Diablo and Path of exile and even back in the day City of Heroes/Villains had it. where as you can go into a dungeon solo or with a full group and the dungeon would scale to the amount of people you have.
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Something Awful this way comes.
Because of the challenge in tuning the difficulty. In games like Diablo you can increase the mob HP and their DMG or increase their mitigation and tune it until the fight takes as long as it should to be a challenge. In MMOs where boss fights have often very intricate mechanics and are phased fights, simply scaling the percentages isn't enough. They may end up having to completely rework certain mechanics, and then it becomes hard to ensure proper difficulty.
Cryptic designed their system around it and that is why there system was great at it. It also allowed for players to have difficulty sliders. Systems that haven't planned for it in their initial design will have a much harder time of it.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Everyone so far has debated how to scale, but I'm of the opinion that MMORPGs - or RPGs in general for that matter - shouldn't scale at all. To me this is all about the "convenience" thing. Leveling is hard and boring? No problem, just allow people to max out in one week. Can't solo the toughest content in the game? No problem once again. Just make that dragon or high level dungeon as tough as fighting a sick kitten for the player.
But here's my view. Neutering games in this way doesn't really make people happy, it only makes them sad and truly bored. For one thing, it destroys immersion. The fictional dream of a quasi-realistic (and constant) setting that is a huge part of RPG game playing. And it also reduces or eliminates the need for evaluation and correct decision making in choosing opponents, or in planning the direction of your progression. Rendering all sense of achievement corrupt. Sure you may get your reward. But metaphorically - it's only the reward of sleeping with a whore.
I guess it seems, even to me, that maybe I'm getting a little off track here. But as to the OP's original example, I say, wait to do that big dungeon until you've paid your dues and found some guild buddies to do it with you. Do this, and then it really will be a lot more fun. And if you can't meet the prerequisites, then just do something else in the game world that is appropriate for your level and for solo play. A good MMORPG should offer you these kinds of opportunities. And always try to enjoy where you're at. Don't become obsessed in MMORPGs with where you might be.
Older games had dungeons designed where the fronts were generally easier and the deeper content was more group oriented. Meant the same dungeon could be done solo or in a full group. You would solo the front and as you added more and more players you could go deeper and deeper. I think that is so much better than the cruddy instances we get now.
Because the idea of scaling online games is a relatively new-ish concept (within the last few years). It's been done before, yes, but 10 years ago the focus was on levels, leveling, and 'endgame'. Now that more gamers are starting to see the flaws with vertical progression, scaleable content makes more sense. And as such we are seeing more and more games with some form of that.
That said, scaling can also be more problematic than you might think. For example, when mechanics are involved. Look at GW2, stat-wise the scaling works more or less fine. There is some issue with the loot difference from ascended -> green loot stat differentials. However, the biggest difference is that higher lvls simply have way more tools to deal with any given situation than a normal lower-lvl. They have access to all their abilities, in addition to trades that augment themselves in pretty significant ways. There are some fights that you just cannot do without access to a couple forms of damage immunity (blocks) for example.
The best option when it comes to scaling is to just do away with levels entirely, but we won't allow for that. Because the feeling of progression you get from even the most arbitrary lvling mechanics is just too damned addicting.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
someone didn't read the post
i never mentioned anything about levels i mentioned dungeon scaling as far as for the amount of players entering that dungeon.
(For starters, the OP had nothing to do with levels. It was about party size).
But to address your "point" in particular....
What is a level?
Why is the Moa Bird in zone y stronger than the Moa Bird in zone x?
What makes the monsters here stronger than the monsters there?
Why did the enemy faction place all of their weakest units in the invasion force attacking near your starting city?
Levels themselves are arbitrary and stupid. They are the virtual representation of getting better at something, but all they actually do is nonsensically increase your ability to take and deal damage, as opposed to actually improving your character's technique. There is no current way to represent actual progression in a realistic form, and it always ends up with logical farts like those described. And for what? To have a game that invalidates previous content for the illusion of progression - for moving from one zone to the next, trading reskin B of a starting monster for reskin C is not actual progression. No thank you.
Why would you do a dungeon with 10 people when it can be done with 5?
logic says: the reward should be greater.
But then you would have some extremely overpowered lvl 10 players wouldn't you?
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A ten dollar dungeon is still only a ten dollar dungeon with 5 people. It is too easy to exploit the system with your risk reward idea because the exploiters have mathed the numbers. So there isn't a "real" risk now is there? Nice try.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
A ten dollar dungeon is still only a ten dollar dungeon with 5 people. It is too easy to exploit the system with your risk reward idea because the exploiters have mathed the numbers. So there isn't a "real" risk now is there? Nice try.
huh?
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If your target is worth X that is all you get. Just because you 5 man a 10 man instance doesn't mean you get some extra f#$%ing reward for that. You call it more risk. I say it wasn't more risk. Stupid metagaming BS.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Its all about difficulty. Scaling makes balancing for difficult a lot harder. It is fine if difficult isn't a big issue (aka ARPG) but if you want a good balanced dungeon its not something that will work out well. WoW has a good example of this as its raids have potential 'sweet' number spots in which a flexible raid will work far better.
It could work for more casual content, but if you want anything with difficulty it just won't work. It is why you see a lot of MMos around try to scale events to the number of people around the area which acts in a way like scaling, primarily as a way of increasing difficulty while not having to worry about it becoming too 'trivial' that it gets obliterated easily.
The scaling in GW2 is as terrible as in any other game, and it's actually worse there because there is so little PvE content at max level. That game is very small. They seemed to invest more in the art than the actual content, and scaling was frankly necessary to avoid the entire game (i.e. very limited PvE content and dungeon maps) becoming instantly trivial the minute the characters start getting to level 80 and got Exotic/Ascended gear).
Problem with MMORPGs these days is that they are too easy and too fast.
Scaling is a bandaid fix for the issue mainstream MMORPGs have. With how fast they allow characters to progress these days, the develops do not have enough time to create new content to keep them from getting bored and running into a situation where these is nothing to do when they log in (outside of raid or PvP), since it causes content to have a very short shelf life.
I agree getting rid of the levels is probably the place to start to move away from the current trend, but that just becomes a massive headache IRT itemization and other things.
So I am guessing you don't play many RPGs? Cause they have always been designed this way.
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^^ incorrect. Eve,ESO etc offer horizontal Progression on the form of skills, many of which are not simple power gains. Once you get to max level ESO switches to an AA system where power gains from xp gain becom progressively smaller over time. Now we all enjoy upgrading power, it's all part of the fun and therefore scaling of dungeons (ie we hit sheep for 10 in the start of an rpg - doesn't feel cool or make sense to hit demon gods for 10 at end game does it. Scaling is therefor a solid approach to maintaining relevance when players do increase in power It also allows players of different levels to play together. The reason games don't do it is that it costs money to develop scaling systems.
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Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
That's not what i meant. What i'm saying is:
what is the incentive to scale players and difficulty if there is no carrot? (withholding just for fun).
If you were to use a gear advantage then you could possibly unbalance that level bracket.
I'm not arguing for or against risk vs reward, im just pointing out a development issue that would need to be addressed.
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Scaling shoukld be done in both levels and group size.
But the game actually needs to be designed with that in mind. For instance WoW and its very limited system is hard to adapt to scaling.
Think we will see much much more of that in upcoming MMOs, GW2 started a trend here, even WoW is trying to scale but in WoWs limted system it turns up as very costly endevour, ESO DLC will scale in levels, AvA has (shitty buti ts there)upscaling in AvA and levelsync for dungeons. FFXIV....
Its just much better way of doing things. And if you insist some things could be left out of scaling, but i wouldnt bet that it will be much content (if any)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D