Yep, as someone who has been roleplaying in mmorpgs since EQ1 I totally agree with this. Today's shoebox mmorpg worlds are horrible compared to the mmorpgs of yesteryear. Hell even ArcheAge with its more traditionally designed old school mmorpg world with all its glorious nooks and crannies, real sized oceans, etc makes mmos like FFXIV:ARR look pathetic with its shoebox sized world that is pretty but nothing but a bunch of interconnected tunnels. Too bad Trion/XL can't fix the damn cheaters worth a damn otherwise I'd still be there. Real world sized mmorpgs like SWG, Vanguard, EQ and hell even Vanilla WoW completely spit on todays shoebox, invisible wall mmorpgs for roleplay. Who the fuck wants to keep to the samn damn tunnel city anymore for rp, to the same damn cafe? Where are the days where you could find some random off the beaten path village for rp anymore and find an actual community there? Or even better yet find an mmorpg to play in where there are SEVERAL cities used for rp, not just one and not just the same three block radius in the middle of one. The old school mmos had features that REWARDED rp and are nowadays nothing more than que for party dungeon grinds where you don't even have to leave the damn cities anymore to get to said dungeon. Where is the journey? Not in mmos I'll tell you that!
Historically in tabletop RPGs no DM worth playing with would force that sort of gameplay on players. A DM would quickly run out of players willing to put up with them if they tried to force players to do everything in real-time (including the boring uneventful parts.)
So in tabletop role-playing you are effectively tunneling/teleporting between locations. You're not experiencing every single second of that 1 month travel sequence. You're simply there at the next important location.
Any good entertainment (be it videogame or tabletop game or movie or book) skips to the interesting bits. Anything that doesn't carry an experience forward holds it back.
So it's actually not problematic at all for a MMORPGs world to be created like FFXIV's when it comes to role-playing. Role-players only need the setting. The rest is up to them. If you're choosing not to role-play somewhere it's not because that somewhere isn't suited to role-playing -- you can role-play wherever the hell you goddamn want -- it's because you have chosen not to role-play.
You're completely correct about RP. Besides that, in general, these ideas about long travel times, mob camps, grinding, etc. that people hold onto as the end all be all of great MMORPG design not only don't mesh well with tradition table top RPG gaming, but it is the antithesis of it. While there are a million and one styles of table top rpg gaming, these "old school" MMO mechanics were extremely far way from replicating the experience. I would never accept a DM that told us to keep looking at our watch to see when we could arrive. I would never accept a DM that set up a situation where I indefinitely killed an unending stream of goblins (and never be in any danger) in order to "gain xp."
Honestly, it's the LACK of support for an actual game that made role-play nearly a requirement to enjoy the older titles. This is the crux right here - the older games were so poor as actual games that they REQUIRED people to be able to RP to enjoy them fully.
The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.
It's actually the complete opposite.
They always whine about the "good old days", next-gen is what they do NOT long for.
I sense this is your bid at humor but it must be based on an element of fact. You are completely wrong. It as been repeated far too many times that the "style" of game is what mmo vets want firmly build of next-gen tech and advanced design.
"Maybe you just don't like gaming anymore! I'm having fun!"
Feels like it's just the veterans vs the newbies.
The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.
Where as the newbies to MMOs, are perfectly happy. They are still not much beyond their "honeymoon period" of MMO and they never got to experience what the Veterans did "back in the day"... So they are happy with what they have and don't get why the more seasoned MMOers are so unhappy.
Who has the best position? Don't know.
I'd love to enjoy what we have now... But then, not if meant I never got experience things like "Back in the day". As I think you really "had to be there" to really appreciate the older MMOs. Newbies going back to them... I'd imagine they just seem old and boring.
You didn't miss much (except for watching it all "unfold").
Even with updated graphics many of the older MMOs would be dismissed as rubbish by the great majority of players today. Many of them were full of horrible gameplay elements that served little purpose except to create timesinks. Sitting down to "rest" for a minute after whacking a few mobs would have most people quitting the game very quickly these days.
Then there were death penalties that you had to rest off for x amount of time (cumulative even if I'm remembering some of them correctly) forcing even more downtime on you. Death penalties that could rob you of days of progress if your internet failed you, or if some jerk trained you with a gazillion mobs or griefed you in some other way.
I'll take today's games anytime.
This. This, so much. I don't need to a game that punishes me left and right. I need a place to explore and roleplay.
EQ punished you for being stupid and not thinking about consequences, pure and simple. Sure people did things like train you, but if you knew what you were doing, you could always get even. Oh the fun of being an Iksar Monk...
New games have no consequences, period. You are rewarded for logging in. You learn more from failure than by successes. New games are a microcosm of society, so not having consequences should come as no surprise. Kids are coddled and shielded so much they can't handle hard work, learning for themselves, or God forbid, failure.
Gen. Patton said he judged a man not by how high climbed but by how high he bounced after he bottom. Think about that one people. New gamers are so concerned with being given success and not earning it that they can't handle failure. It's seen as punishment.
to all those that couldn't hack the time sinks, what in the hell is the gear grind? It's a not so cleverly designed time sink. Those down times allowed us to build friendships and OMG a community! Holy crap! A real life community where people actually chatted with other, help total strangers, and if you were worth a damn your name was known and you didn't have to beg for groups; groups begged you to join them. In other words, you didn't need a stupid group/raid finder. Those "mechanics" we're created so the crap players could find groups too. Every kid gets a trophy...
The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.
It's actually the complete opposite.
They always whine about the "good old days", next-gen is what they do NOT long for.
I sense this is your bid at humor but it must be based on an element of fact. You are completely wrong. It as been repeated far too many times that the "style" of game is what mmo vets want firmly build of next-gen tech and advanced design.
Making things up is a sign of bitterness. Keep your chin up Buckwheat.
No, he is completely correct. All we get is pleas for old school design from "verterans." New concepts are constantly coming out and all they can do is complain about how it doesn't match their preconceived notions about what an MMO is "supposed" to be.
"Maybe you just don't like gaming anymore! I'm having fun!"
Feels like it's just the veterans vs the newbies.
The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.
Where as the newbies to MMOs, are perfectly happy. They are still not much beyond their "honeymoon period" of MMO and they never got to experience what the Veterans did "back in the day"... So they are happy with what they have and don't get why the more seasoned MMOers are so unhappy.
Who has the best position? Don't know.
I'd love to enjoy what we have now... But then, not if meant I never got experience things like "Back in the day". As I think you really "had to be there" to really appreciate the older MMOs. Newbies going back to them... I'd imagine they just seem old and boring.
You didn't miss much (except for watching it all "unfold").
Even with updated graphics many of the older MMOs would be dismissed as rubbish by the great majority of players today. Many of them were full of horrible gameplay elements that served little purpose except to create timesinks. Sitting down to "rest" for a minute after whacking a few mobs would have most people quitting the game very quickly these days.
Then there were death penalties that you had to rest off for x amount of time (cumulative even if I'm remembering some of them correctly) forcing even more downtime on you. Death penalties that could rob you of days of progress if your internet failed you, or if some jerk trained you with a gazillion mobs or griefed you in some other way.
I'll take today's games anytime.
This. This, so much. I don't need to a game that punishes me left and right. I need a place to explore and roleplay.
EQ punished you for being stupid and not thinking about consequences, pure and simple. Sure people did things like train you, but if you knew what you were doing, you could always get even. Oh the fun of being an Iksar Monk...
New games have no consequences, period. You are rewarded for logging in. You learn more from failure than by successes. New games are a microcosm of society, so not having consequences should come as no surprise. Kids are coddled and shielded so much they can't handle hard work, learning for themselves, or God forbid, failure.
Gen. Patton said he judged a man not by how high climbed but by how high he bounced after he bottom. Think about that one people. New gamers are so concerned with being given success and not earning it that they can't handle failure. It's seen as punishment.
to all those that couldn't hack the time sinks, what in the hell is the gear grind? It's a not so cleverly designed time sink. Those down times allowed us to build friendships and OMG a community! Holy crap! A real life community where people actually chatted with other, help total strangers, and if you were worth a damn your name was known and you didn't have to beg for groups; groups begged you to join them. In other words, you didn't need a stupid group/raid finder. Those "mechanics" we're created so the crap players could find groups too. Every kid gets a trophy...
As many have stated before, the gameplay is not going to fix this problem...
Yep, as someone who has been roleplaying in mmorpgs since EQ1 I totally agree with this. Today's shoebox mmorpg worlds are horrible compared to the mmorpgs of yesteryear. Hell even ArcheAge with its more traditionally designed old school mmorpg world with all its glorious nooks and crannies, real sized oceans, etc makes mmos like FFXIV:ARR look pathetic with its shoebox sized world that is pretty but nothing but a bunch of interconnected tunnels. Too bad Trion/XL can't fix the damn cheaters worth a damn otherwise I'd still be there. Real world sized mmorpgs like SWG, Vanguard, EQ and hell even Vanilla WoW completely spit on todays shoebox, invisible wall mmorpgs for roleplay. Who the fuck wants to keep to the samn damn tunnel city anymore for rp, to the same damn cafe? Where are the days where you could find some random off the beaten path village for rp anymore and find an actual community there? Or even better yet find an mmorpg to play in where there are SEVERAL cities used for rp, not just one and not just the same three block radius in the middle of one. The old school mmos had features that REWARDED rp and are nowadays nothing more than que for party dungeon grinds where you don't even have to leave the damn cities anymore to get to said dungeon. Where is the journey? Not in mmos I'll tell you that!
Historically in tabletop RPGs no DM worth playing with would force that sort of gameplay on players. A DM would quickly run out of players willing to put up with them if they tried to force players to do everything in real-time (including the boring uneventful parts.)
So in tabletop role-playing you are effectively tunneling/teleporting between locations. You're not experiencing every single second of that 1 month travel sequence. You're simply there at the next important location.
Any good entertainment (be it videogame or tabletop game or movie or book) skips to the interesting bits. Anything that doesn't carry an experience forward holds it back.
So it's actually not problematic at all for a MMORPGs world to be created like FFXIV's when it comes to role-playing. Role-players only need the setting. The rest is up to them. If you're choosing not to role-play somewhere it's not because that somewhere isn't suited to role-playing -- you can role-play wherever the hell you goddamn want -- it's because you have chosen not to role-play.
You're completely correct about RP. Besides that, in general, these ideas about long travel times, mob camps, grinding, etc. that people hold onto as the end all be all of great MMORPG design not only don't mesh well with tradition table top RPG gaming, but it is the antithesis of it. While there are a million and one styles of table top rpg gaming, these "old school" MMO mechanics were extremely far way from replicating the experience. I would never accept a DM that told us to keep looking at our watch to see when we could arrive. I would never accept a DM that set up a situation where I indefinitely killed an unending stream of goblins (and never be in any danger) in order to "gain xp."
Honestly, it's the LACK of support for an actual game that made role-play nearly a requirement to enjoy the older titles. This is the crux right here - the older games were so poor as actual games that they REQUIRED people to be able to RP to enjoy them fully.
1. Both of you are completely wrong and here is why
1. Were old school mmorpgs bad in many aspects - YES abso- damn lutely.
2. Did old school mmorpgs have more roleplaying aspects to their worlds? Yup! EQ1's questing system where quests were special and not a requirement, and when you did stumble upon one they took you around the world. EQ1's questing system (not the fed ex quests) took you around the world and were more akin to taking the ring to Mt. Doom in LOTR. You didn't HAVE to do them, they were not required at all. Also the language and conversation systems - you had to actually carry on a CONVERSATION with npcs to even get a quest at all. Don't mention the thing that they may be interested in? You don't get the quest. Imagine if some new company expounded on this with today's tech?
3. Old school mmos allowed more flexibility in gameplay. How so? I leveled an Erudite Paladin just by roleplaying and fighting off "trains". I didn't do quests, I didn't party with anyone, I soloed the entire way while rping, I made up how I wanted to play. I honestly had NO idea that EQ was a group oriented mmo until years after I stopped playing! The world was dangerous enough that I could sit ther and say "Hey I want to be a hero, so I am going to save people from monsters when I see them in trouble." What's even better yet? Erudite Paladins were so rare that when people saw this black Paladin run up to save them while being totally in character it provided something that today's mmos don't have - a competely random experience. One that did not require me having to roleplay with other roleplayers, but the fact that my roleplay which was mixed with playing the game my own way affected people who didn't. "Oh wait there's that Erudite Paladin who goes around saving people. I just found this awesome sword that I don't need. Let me give it to him." Nowadays its ALL about the gear grind, hell many new mmorpgs don't even put in rp servers anymore and the ones that do treat rp like its an afterthought. Player interaction matters little unless its getting together for PUGs. The fact that some kid playing the game for the first time can just say "Hey screw this, I'm going to level my own way, by roleplaying throughout and I'm still going to hit levels the entire ride" is simply non existent nowadays. There just is no incentive to this anymore. There is no incentive in the tunnel worlds to say "Screw this, I just want to go see that mountain today!" There is no sense of ADVENTURE anymore, EVERYTHING is about the level grind and getting some damn achievement to show off to some other peon. Or getting some new gear from the latest raid to show off that will not matter in six months because the next set of gear grind raids have just dropped.
New school gamers always complain about old school mmos being like a job. As if gear/level grinding is not a job!!?. MMO's have NEVER been about BEATING the game. There were no such thing as content locusts back in the old days because that's not what you were there for! In the old days you didn't care about rushing to Endgame, WTF is Endgame, how can a VIRTUAL WORLD have an Endgame? Isn't that an Oxymoron? Roleplaying in an mmo is not like roleplaying in a pen and paper game, because you have the entire world in an mmo at your disposal and its up to YOU on how you spend your time. Like the old saying "The WORLD IS YOUR OYSTER!". Pen and Paper games don't allow that kind of flexibility because you are being railroaded into the DM's story! Modern themeparks are nothing but being railroaded into the DM's story. Old mmos were "So hey where do YOU want to go today, what do YOU want to see? Go do it, and enjoy the journey itself!" Hell its why despite the technical issues many new school players had no idea what to do in a large sprawling world like Archeage - because they are used to having their hands held like they are a bunch of four year olds!
When your world is about rushing to Endgame to become nothing but a donkey chasing a carrot, you are not playing an mmorpg anymore, you are now the hamster in the maze. That is not an mmo, that is a platformer!
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Yep, as someone who has been roleplaying in mmorpgs since EQ1 I totally agree with this. Today's shoebox mmorpg worlds are horrible compared to the mmorpgs of yesteryear. Hell even ArcheAge with its more traditionally designed old school mmorpg world with all its glorious nooks and crannies, real sized oceans, etc makes mmos like FFXIV:ARR look pathetic with its shoebox sized world that is pretty but nothing but a bunch of interconnected tunnels. Too bad Trion/XL can't fix the damn cheaters worth a damn otherwise I'd still be there. Real world sized mmorpgs like SWG, Vanguard, EQ and hell even Vanilla WoW completely spit on todays shoebox, invisible wall mmorpgs for roleplay. Who the fuck wants to keep to the samn damn tunnel city anymore for rp, to the same damn cafe? Where are the days where you could find some random off the beaten path village for rp anymore and find an actual community there? Or even better yet find an mmorpg to play in where there are SEVERAL cities used for rp, not just one and not just the same three block radius in the middle of one. The old school mmos had features that REWARDED rp and are nowadays nothing more than que for party dungeon grinds where you don't even have to leave the damn cities anymore to get to said dungeon. Where is the journey? Not in mmos I'll tell you that!
Historically in tabletop RPGs no DM worth playing with would force that sort of gameplay on players. A DM would quickly run out of players willing to put up with them if they tried to force players to do everything in real-time (including the boring uneventful parts.)
So in tabletop role-playing you are effectively tunneling/teleporting between locations. You're not experiencing every single second of that 1 month travel sequence. You're simply there at the next important location.
Any good entertainment (be it videogame or tabletop game or movie or book) skips to the interesting bits. Anything that doesn't carry an experience forward holds it back.
So it's actually not problematic at all for a MMORPGs world to be created like FFXIV's when it comes to role-playing. Role-players only need the setting. The rest is up to them. If you're choosing not to role-play somewhere it's not because that somewhere isn't suited to role-playing -- you can role-play wherever the hell you goddamn want -- it's because you have chosen not to role-play.
You're completely correct about RP. Besides that, in general, these ideas about long travel times, mob camps, grinding, etc. that people hold onto as the end all be all of great MMORPG design not only don't mesh well with tradition table top RPG gaming, but it is the antithesis of it. While there are a million and one styles of table top rpg gaming, these "old school" MMO mechanics were extremely far way from replicating the experience. I would never accept a DM that told us to keep looking at our watch to see when we could arrive. I would never accept a DM that set up a situation where I indefinitely killed an unending stream of goblins (and never be in any danger) in order to "gain xp."
Honestly, it's the LACK of support for an actual game that made role-play nearly a requirement to enjoy the older titles. This is the crux right here - the older games were so poor as actual games that they REQUIRED people to be able to RP to enjoy them fully.
1. Both of you are completely wrong and here is why
1. Were old school mmorpgs bad in many aspects - YES abso- damn lutely.
2. Did old school mmorpgs have more roleplaying aspects to their worlds? Yup! EQ1's questing system where quests were special and not a requirement, and when you did stumble upon one they took you around the world. EQ1's questing system (not the fed ex quests) took you around the world and were more akin to taking the ring to Mt. Doom in LOTR. You didn't HAVE to do them, they were not required at all. Also the language and conversation systems - you had to actually carry on a CONVERSATION with npcs to even get a quest at all. Don't mention the thing that they may be interested in? You don't get the quest. Imagine if some new company expounded on this with today's tech?
3. Old school mmos allowed more flexibility in gameplay. How so? I leveled an Erudite Paladin just by roleplaying and fighting off "trains". I didn't do quests, I didn't party with anyone, I soloed the entire way while rping, I made up how I wanted to play. I honestly had NO idea that EQ was a group oriented mmo until years after I stopped playing! The world was dangerous enough that I could sit ther and say "Hey I want to be a hero, so I am going to save people from monsters when I see them in trouble." What's even better yet? Erudite Paladins were so rare that when people saw this black Paladin run up to save them while being totally in character it provided something that today's mmos don't have - a competely random experience. One that did not require me having to roleplay with other roleplayers, but the fact that my roleplay which was mixed with playing the game my own way affected people who didn't. "Oh wait there's that Erudite Paladin who goes around saving people. I just found this awesome sword that I don't need. Let me give it to him." Nowadays its ALL about the gear grind, hell many new mmorpgs don't even put in rp servers anymore and the ones that do treat rp like its an afterthought. Player interaction matters little unless its getting together for PUGs. The fact that some kid playing the game for the first time can just say "Hey screw this, I'm going to level my own way, by roleplaying throughout and I'm still going to hit levels the entire ride" is simply non existent nowadays. There just is no incentive to this anymore. There is no incentive in the tunnel worlds to say "Screw this, I just want to go see that mountain today!" There is no sense of ADVENTURE anymore, EVERYTHING is about the level grind and getting some damn achievement to show off to some other peon. Or getting some new gear from the latest raid to show off that will not matter in six months because the next set of gear grind raids have just dropped.
New school gamers always complain about old school mmos being like a job. As if gear/level grinding is not a job!!?. MMO's have NEVER been about BEATING the game. There were no such thing as content locusts back in the old days because that's not what you were there for! In the old days you didn't care about rushing to Endgame, WTF is Endgame, how can a VIRTUAL WORLD have an Endgame? Isn't that an Oxymoron? Roleplaying in an mmo is not like roleplaying in a pen and paper game, because you have the entire world in an mmo at your disposal and its up to YOU on how you spend your time. Like the old saying "The WORLD IS YOUR OYSTER!". Pen and Paper games don't allow that kind of flexibility because you are being railroaded into the DM's story! Modern themeparks are nothing but being railroaded into the DM's story. Old mmos were "So hey where do YOU want to go today, what do YOU want to see? Go do it, and enjoy the journey itself!" Hell its why despite the technical issues many new school players had no idea what to do in a large sprawling world like Archeage - because they are used to having their hands held like they are a bunch of four year olds!
When your world is about rushing to Endgame to become nothing but a donkey chasing a carrot, you are not playing an mmorpg anymore, you are now the hamster in the maze. That is not an mmo, that is a platformer!
People still RP all the time in new MMORPGs. I know because I am occasionally part of it. Your entire rant is simply invalid because people RP in large numbers in newer MMORPGs. There are a ton of people that enjoy just being in a great setting and knowing the lore and being in each others company.
I agree with you though, those old school games don't follow PnP at all. I mean, that is exactly what I said and I'm glad you agree with me. They are literally almost the opposite of PnP games and newer versions of MMORPGs actually share more in common with them, by far, than older MMORPGs.
Your idea about level grind and how today's games are MORE about that than yesteryears? Completely ridiculous. EQ1 is the epitome of a level grind. That you would mention the level grind as a contrast in favor of old school games gives me chills down my spine. EQ1 is the epitome of a level grind.
I'll address one more thing. Endgame. Endgame is infinite. THE END OF A GAME is not. They are obviously different.
Originally posted by koboldfodder Games WERE better back then. Not in terms of graphics or sound or any of the technical aspects of internet gaming, but they were most certainly better in terms of gameplay.Early EQ, SWG before all the changes, Ultima Online and Asheron's Call. Those games had serious game systems whether it was crafting or group combat or questing or whatever.WOW became popular because it was solo friendly and everything was easy, and that was the end of that.It's sort of rare for things to devolve, usually things get better with time, but MMO gaming is certainly the exception to that rule. If you were not around for those early years 1999-2003 or so, you missed out on the best the genre had to offer. Anyone who played then will tell you there is no comparison with those games and the games today.
where do you get your nostalgia goggles? They work fantastic. . .
I especially like the part that vanilla WoW was solo friendly and thats what made it popular. . .
Compared to the leading mmo of that DAY which was EQ WoW vanilla was solo friendly.
1. Both of you are completely wrong and here is why
1. Were old school mmorpgs bad in many aspects - YES abso- damn lutely.
2. Did old school mmorpgs have more roleplaying aspects to their worlds? Yup! EQ1's questing system where quests were special and not a requirement, and when you did stumble upon one they took you around the world. EQ1's questing system (not the fed ex quests) took you around the world and were more akin to taking the ring to Mt. Doom in LOTR. You didn't HAVE to do them, they were not required at all. Also the language and conversation systems - you had to actually carry on a CONVERSATION with npcs to even get a quest at all. Don't mention the thing that they may be interested in? You don't get the quest. Imagine if some new company expounded on this with today's tech?
3. Old school mmos allowed more flexibility in gameplay. How so? I leveled an Erudite Paladin just by roleplaying and fighting off "trains". I didn't do quests, I didn't party with anyone, I soloed the entire way while rping, I made up how I wanted to play. I honestly had NO idea that EQ was a group oriented mmo until years after I stopped playing! The world was dangerous enough that I could sit ther and say "Hey I want to be a hero, so I am going to save people from monsters when I see them in trouble." What's even better yet? Erudite Paladins were so rare that when people saw this black Paladin run up to save them while being totally in character it provided something that today's mmos don't have - a competely random experience. One that did not require me having to roleplay with other roleplayers, but the fact that my roleplay which was mixed with playing the game my own way affected people who didn't. "Oh wait there's that Erudite Paladin who goes around saving people. I just found this awesome sword that I don't need. Let me give it to him." Nowadays its ALL about the gear grind, hell many new mmorpgs don't even put in rp servers anymore and the ones that do treat rp like its an afterthought. Player interaction matters little unless its getting together for PUGs. The fact that some kid playing the game for the first time can just say "Hey screw this, I'm going to level my own way, by roleplaying throughout and I'm still going to hit levels the entire ride" is simply non existent nowadays. There just is no incentive to this anymore. There is no incentive in the tunnel worlds to say "Screw this, I just want to go see that mountain today!" There is no sense of ADVENTURE anymore, EVERYTHING is about the level grind and getting some damn achievement to show off to some other peon. Or getting some new gear from the latest raid to show off that will not matter in six months because the next set of gear grind raids have just dropped.
New school gamers always complain about old school mmos being like a job. As if gear/level grinding is not a job!!?. MMO's have NEVER been about BEATING the game. There were no such thing as content locusts back in the old days because that's not what you were there for! In the old days you didn't care about rushing to Endgame, WTF is Endgame, how can a VIRTUAL WORLD have an Endgame? Isn't that an Oxymoron? Roleplaying in an mmo is not like roleplaying in a pen and paper game, because you have the entire world in an mmo at your disposal and its up to YOU on how you spend your time. Like the old saying "The WORLD IS YOUR OYSTER!". Pen and Paper games don't allow that kind of flexibility because you are being railroaded into the DM's story! Modern themeparks are nothing but being railroaded into the DM's story. Old mmos were "So hey where do YOU want to go today, what do YOU want to see? Go do it, and enjoy the journey itself!" Hell its why despite the technical issues many new school players had no idea what to do in a large sprawling world like Archeage - because they are used to having their hands held like they are a bunch of four year olds!
When your world is about rushing to Endgame to become nothing but a donkey chasing a carrot, you are not playing an mmorpg anymore, you are now the hamster in the maze. That is not an mmo, that is a platformer!
Being tasked to travel around the world isn't role-playing. Remember we're talking about subscription games here. Playtime is revenue. These excessive travel quests weren't designed to be deep, provocative gameplay. They were a money-grab.
The rest of the stuff is just on you. Turns out if you stop putting effort into playing a role in a game, nobody remembers you like they remembered your paladin. Who knew! Whereas in Planetside 2 the game isn't remotely about role-playing, yet my TR character would /yell random fascist WW2 movie quotes, and often others would chime in, joining with the fun.
Let's maybe be careful about the new school vs. old school talk. Gamers actually pre-date MMORPGs by quite a lot, so referring to early MMORPG players as "old school" is inaccurate. Old school gamers mostly cared about gameplay, and early MMORPGs had a lot less gameplay but required a lot more time than other games. This resulted in a diluted experience which just wasn't very fun compared to what you could experience in other games.
So it was rare to hear early MMORPGs criticized as jobs, so much as they were criticized for their lousy diluted gameplay.
But again, all of this just seems to be on you -- you're not willing to role-play in any game which isn't an empty shell, but really if you'd just put effort into actually role-playing, then nobody could stop you.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Being tasked to travel around the world isn't role-playing. Remember we're talking about subscription games here. Playtime is revenue. These excessive travel quests weren't designed to be deep, provocative gameplay. They were a money-grab. (1)
The rest of the stuff is just on you. Turns out if you stop putting effort into playing a role in a game, nobody remembers you like they remembered your paladin. Who knew! Whereas in Planetside 2 the game isn't remotely about role-playing, yet my TR character would /yell random fascist WW2 movie quotes, and often others would chime in, joining with the fun. (2)
Let's maybe be careful about the new school vs. old school talk. Gamers actually pre-date MMORPGs by quite a lot, so referring to early MMORPG players as "old school" is inaccurate. Old school gamers mostly cared about gameplay, and early MMORPGs had a lot less gameplay but required a lot more time than other games. This resulted in a diluted experience which just wasn't very fun compared to what you could experience in other games. (3)
So it was rare to hear early MMORPGs criticized as jobs, so much as they were criticized for their lousy diluted gameplay.
But again, all of this just seems to be on you -- you're not willing to role-play in any game which isn't an empty shell, but really if you'd just put effort into actually role-playing, then nobody could stop you. (4)
Seriously Axe.. you should really tone down that "MY WAY or the HIGHWAY" appearance.. I have a hint for you.. YOUR OPINION of fun is NOT universal fact.. FYI.. Now for some opinion responses:
1) Everything a company does is to earn revenue (FACT).. I have a news flash for you.. What is the difference in a company that creates 10 long grinding timesinks (as you call them) that takes 100 hours to complete.. or a company that creates 100 quick quest that take 100 hours to complete? Either way the company is getting 100 HOURS out of you, one way or the other.. It doesn't matter how many times you split the pie, it's still the whole pie.. Expansions are timesinks according to you because they are ONLY there to get you to subscribe longer.. LOL
2) I see the same fascist WW2 movie quotes in Stormwind too and others would chime in.. I've had a hell of a lot more chatting and fun socializing in a MMORPG game then any FPS PvP game.. I think most would agree with me.. OH wait, does that make me a member of the majority, so then that means you're wrong.. LOL You can't possibly have fun in the minority.. LOL
3) Given that I'm over 50 I'm confident I've had my share of FUN (according to my likes) from many angles and views.. With my age and wisdom tho, I have learned that my definition of fun is usually different then others.. I learn to respect others and their wishes.. Seriously if music was a majority rule business, we wouldn't have rap music to listen to, and I hate rap.. However, that doesn't mean I want to be a dictator and censor others peoples likes/dislikes..
4)So you are saying that if I want to swim laps at the community pool during peak hours, I can simply by ignoring the other 50 people in the pool..... ahhhhh OK.. I'll try that next time, maybe everyone will move out of my way do they don't interfere with my lap swimming.. The point here is that often the community and environment around you dictates your gameplay.. Now if we had the luxury of having servers that are tailored to our likings, I'm all for that.. But I have yet to see any serious attempt by a company to appease the minority..
Originally posted by Bascola Originally posted by Destai Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade Originally posted by patient32 Always see the same arguments."MMOs are rubbish now, in my day they were good!"VS"Maybe you just don't like gaming anymore! I'm having fun!"Feels like it's just the veterans vs the newbies.The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.Where as the newbies to MMOs, are perfectly happy. They are still not much beyond their "honeymoon period" of MMO and they never got to experience what the Veterans did "back in the day"... So they are happy with what they have and don't get why the more seasoned MMOers are so unhappy.Who has the best position? Don't know.I'd love to enjoy what we have now... But then, not if meant I never got experience things like "Back in the day". As I think you really "had to be there" to really appreciate the older MMOs. Newbies going back to them... I'd imagine they just seem old and boring.
You didn't miss much (except for watching it all "unfold").
Even with updated graphics many of the older MMOs would be dismissed as rubbish by the great majority of players today. Many of them were full of horrible gameplay elements that served little purpose except to create timesinks. Sitting down to "rest" for a minute after whacking a few mobs would have most people quitting the game very quickly these days.
Then there were death penalties that you had to rest off for x amount of time (cumulative even if I'm remembering some of them correctly) forcing even more downtime on you. Death penalties that could rob you of days of progress if your internet failed you, or if some jerk trained you with a gazillion mobs or griefed you in some other way.
I'll take today's games anytime.
This. This, so much. I don't need to a game that punishes me left and right. I need a place to explore and roleplay.
Tell me, how is that working out for you? The old games are still vastly superior to roleplay in and explore than anything new.
If you can't cope with death penalties because you suck at playing the game then that's too bad.
If you can't spend an hour concentrated on a task before you go shouting "The grind is so hard" then you need to go play Tetris.
If you can't play a game that is actually a challenge instead of a collection of buttons and pinhatas that give you stuff for free then i feel really sad for you.
Yep, as someone who has been roleplaying in mmorpgs since EQ1 I totally agree with this. Today's shoebox mmorpg worlds are horrible compared to the mmorpgs of yesteryear. Hell even ArcheAge with its more traditionally designed old school mmorpg world with all its glorious nooks and crannies, real sized oceans, etc makes mmos like FFXIV:ARR look pathetic with its shoebox sized world that is pretty but nothing but a bunch of interconnected tunnels. Too bad Trion/XL can't fix the damn cheaters worth a damn otherwise I'd still be there. Real world sized mmorpgs like SWG, Vanguard, EQ and hell even Vanilla WoW completely spit on todays shoebox, invisible wall mmorpgs for roleplay. Who the fuck wants to keep to the samn damn tunnel city anymore for rp, to the same damn cafe? Where are the days where you could find some random off the beaten path village for rp anymore and find an actual community there? Or even better yet find an mmorpg to play in where there are SEVERAL cities used for rp, not just one and not just the same three block radius in the middle of one. The old school mmos had features that REWARDED rp and are nowadays nothing more than que for party dungeon grinds where you don't even have to leave the damn cities anymore to get to said dungeon. Where is the journey? Not in mmos I'll tell you that!
If Brad has his way those days are going to be reborn with Pantheon, like him or dislike him I really think the crafty old fox is going to pull it of. With the debacle that was EQN Brad and team have everything to play for.
Well obviously the newbies have it the best now. They get their easy mode instant gratification gameplay that they were used to on the console games, but now it never ends because it is an mmo! And if the mmo sucks it doesn't matter because they just leave and go play other ones since everything is free to play. And if all the f2p games suck they can just go back to CoD or Halo or whatever the fuck kids these days play.
But for us old schoolers who don't even play mmo's anymore because they are all the same. We have jack shit. We play random things to try to keep ourselves busy till the next great hope comes along, to just immediately crush our hopes with a shitty launch missing every feature that drew us in.
The progress of this genre has killed it. There is no more mmorpg's. It is just shitty lobby games disguised as mmo's.
Yep, as someone who has been roleplaying in mmorpgs since EQ1 I totally agree with this. Today's shoebox mmorpg worlds are horrible compared to the mmorpgs of yesteryear. Hell even ArcheAge with its more traditionally designed old school mmorpg world with all its glorious nooks and crannies, real sized oceans, etc makes mmos like FFXIV:ARR look pathetic with its shoebox sized world that is pretty but nothing but a bunch of interconnected tunnels. Too bad Trion/XL can't fix the damn cheaters worth a damn otherwise I'd still be there. Real world sized mmorpgs like SWG, Vanguard, EQ and hell even Vanilla WoW completely spit on todays shoebox, invisible wall mmorpgs for roleplay. Who the fuck wants to keep to the samn damn tunnel city anymore for rp, to the same damn cafe? Where are the days where you could find some random off the beaten path village for rp anymore and find an actual community there? Or even better yet find an mmorpg to play in where there are SEVERAL cities used for rp, not just one and not just the same three block radius in the middle of one. The old school mmos had features that REWARDED rp and are nowadays nothing more than que for party dungeon grinds where you don't even have to leave the damn cities anymore to get to said dungeon. Where is the journey? Not in mmos I'll tell you that!
Historically in tabletop RPGs no DM worth playing with would force that sort of gameplay on players. A DM would quickly run out of players willing to put up with them if they tried to force players to do everything in real-time (including the boring uneventful parts.)
So in tabletop role-playing you are effectively tunneling/teleporting between locations. You're not experiencing every single second of that 1 month travel sequence. You're simply there at the next important location.
Any good entertainment (be it videogame or tabletop game or movie or book) skips to the interesting bits. Anything that doesn't carry an experience forward holds it back.
So it's actually not problematic at all for a MMORPGs world to be created like FFXIV's when it comes to role-playing. Role-players only need the setting. The rest is up to them. If you're choosing not to role-play somewhere it's not because that somewhere isn't suited to role-playing -- you can role-play wherever the hell you goddamn want -- it's because you have chosen not to role-play.
You're completely correct about RP. Besides that, in general, these ideas about long travel times, mob camps, grinding, etc. that people hold onto as the end all be all of great MMORPG design not only don't mesh well with tradition table top RPG gaming, but it is the antithesis of it. While there are a million and one styles of table top rpg gaming, these "old school" MMO mechanics were extremely far way from replicating the experience. I would never accept a DM that told us to keep looking at our watch to see when we could arrive. I would never accept a DM that set up a situation where I indefinitely killed an unending stream of goblins (and never be in any danger) in order to "gain xp."
Honestly, it's the LACK of support for an actual game that made role-play nearly a requirement to enjoy the older titles. This is the crux right here - the older games were so poor as actual games that they REQUIRED people to be able to RP to enjoy them fully.
1. Both of you are completely wrong and here is why
1. Were old school mmorpgs bad in many aspects - YES abso- damn lutely.
2. Did old school mmorpgs have more roleplaying aspects to their worlds? Yup! EQ1's questing system where quests were special and not a requirement, and when you did stumble upon one they took you around the world. EQ1's questing system (not the fed ex quests) took you around the world and were more akin to taking the ring to Mt. Doom in LOTR. You didn't HAVE to do them, they were not required at all. Also the language and conversation systems - you had to actually carry on a CONVERSATION with npcs to even get a quest at all. Don't mention the thing that they may be interested in? You don't get the quest. Imagine if some new company expounded on this with today's tech?
3. Old school mmos allowed more flexibility in gameplay. How so? I leveled an Erudite Paladin just by roleplaying and fighting off "trains". I didn't do quests, I didn't party with anyone, I soloed the entire way while rping, I made up how I wanted to play. I honestly had NO idea that EQ was a group oriented mmo until years after I stopped playing! The world was dangerous enough that I could sit ther and say "Hey I want to be a hero, so I am going to save people from monsters when I see them in trouble." What's even better yet? Erudite Paladins were so rare that when people saw this black Paladin run up to save them while being totally in character it provided something that today's mmos don't have - a competely random experience. One that did not require me having to roleplay with other roleplayers, but the fact that my roleplay which was mixed with playing the game my own way affected people who didn't. "Oh wait there's that Erudite Paladin who goes around saving people. I just found this awesome sword that I don't need. Let me give it to him." Nowadays its ALL about the gear grind, hell many new mmorpgs don't even put in rp servers anymore and the ones that do treat rp like its an afterthought. Player interaction matters little unless its getting together for PUGs. The fact that some kid playing the game for the first time can just say "Hey screw this, I'm going to level my own way, by roleplaying throughout and I'm still going to hit levels the entire ride" is simply non existent nowadays. There just is no incentive to this anymore. There is no incentive in the tunnel worlds to say "Screw this, I just want to go see that mountain today!" There is no sense of ADVENTURE anymore, EVERYTHING is about the level grind and getting some damn achievement to show off to some other peon. Or getting some new gear from the latest raid to show off that will not matter in six months because the next set of gear grind raids have just dropped.
New school gamers always complain about old school mmos being like a job. As if gear/level grinding is not a job!!?. MMO's have NEVER been about BEATING the game. There were no such thing as content locusts back in the old days because that's not what you were there for! In the old days you didn't care about rushing to Endgame, WTF is Endgame, how can a VIRTUAL WORLD have an Endgame? Isn't that an Oxymoron? Roleplaying in an mmo is not like roleplaying in a pen and paper game, because you have the entire world in an mmo at your disposal and its up to YOU on how you spend your time. Like the old saying "The WORLD IS YOUR OYSTER!". Pen and Paper games don't allow that kind of flexibility because you are being railroaded into the DM's story! Modern themeparks are nothing but being railroaded into the DM's story. Old mmos were "So hey where do YOU want to go today, what do YOU want to see? Go do it, and enjoy the journey itself!" Hell its why despite the technical issues many new school players had no idea what to do in a large sprawling world like Archeage - because they are used to having their hands held like they are a bunch of four year olds!
When your world is about rushing to Endgame to become nothing but a donkey chasing a carrot, you are not playing an mmorpg anymore, you are now the hamster in the maze. That is not an mmo, that is a platformer!
People still RP all the time in new MMORPGs. I know because I am occasionally part of it. Your entire rant is simply invalid because people RP in large numbers in newer MMORPGs. There are a ton of people that enjoy just being in a great setting and knowing the lore and being in each others company.
I agree with you though, those old school games don't follow PnP at all. I mean, that is exactly what I said and I'm glad you agree with me. They are literally almost the opposite of PnP games and newer versions of MMORPGs actually share more in common with them, by far, than older MMORPGs.
Your idea about level grind and how today's games are MORE about that than yesteryears? Completely ridiculous. EQ1 is the epitome of a level grind. That you would mention the level grind as a contrast in favor of old school games gives me chills down my spine. EQ1 is the epitome of a level grind.
I'll address one more thing. Endgame. Endgame is infinite. THE END OF A GAME is not. They are obviously different.
Dude I still rp in the newer mmorpgs, what I am saying is that the new mmos roleplay environments don't compare. And as far as more people rping? Sure I love that, but I would have rather had today's rp populations in a game like Vanguard with its world scope and size. Imagine todays rp population in mmos like Vanguard or ArcheAge where you can build boats and sail around the world for example? Or with systems like SWG, Vanguard and AA's crafting systems all working together in unison WHILE rping? Sorry but new games like FFXIV don't compare when it comes to providing immersive rp evironments. Even FFXI did an infinitely better job than XIV with providing a WORLD.
Also was EQ1 a level grind? Yes, but there were five different ways you could approach how to "level while grinding", that is the difference....and it was nice to see that nobody was "rushing to endgame" in two weeks.
See the problem is Freedom, today's games are far too streamlined for my tastes. Only two ways to solve the problem, instead of multiple in old mmos.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Its the same thing as those that prefer the prequels to the original Star Wars movies. There are actually people that think the prequels are better. That doesn't make them right, it makes them young and inexperienced. Same thing for MMO's. People born in the 90's and 2000's, and even 2010's have always existed in an age where immediate gratification is the way of life. A permanent state of "I want it now and will get it" while the rest of us haven't. We grew up at a time when waiting and working for something produced a much deeper feeling of satisfaction. The sheer existence of the modern age promotes ADD and ADHD as the normal way of doing things. That doesn't make it right. It will swing back the other way eventually, it will just take time.
Originally posted by Moirae Its the same thing as those that prefer the prequels to the original Star Wars movies. There are actually people that think the prequels are better. That doesn't make them right, it makes them young and inexperienced. Same thing for MMO's. People born in the 90's and 2000's, and even 2010's have always existed in an age where immediate gratification is the way of life. A permanent state of "I want it now and will get it" while the rest of us haven't. We grew up at a time when waiting and working for something produced a much deeper feeling of satisfaction. The sheer existence of the modern age promotes ADD and ADHD as the normal way of doing things. That doesn't make it right. It will swing back the other way eventually, it will just take time.
I agree with what you've written. When we have to work hard to obtain something, the feeling of satisfaction we get seem true and valuable, while the gratification systems based on immediacy, in my opinion, only simulate the real reward our brain is asking for. Now I don't know where all this will lead us, but I hope the next generations will learn the benefits of patience and hard-working.
Is there a group for sensible veterans that aren't stuck in the past and are capable of enjoying themselves?
You don't see me pining for Max Payne 1 graphics or gameplay, I'm quite fine with new games.
Asheron's Call was my first MMO and still my favorite to this day. However have played manyMMOs since then. Some have been great, others not so much. The only thing I've found is that I don't tend to stick around in them as long as I would in earlier games. I tend to play, stop if I'm getting bored, and then go back to revisit them. I'm on my third revisit to WoW and must say that I'm really enjoying myself. ESO will be my next destination followed by TSW. Lately I'm more of a tourist versus a long term resident. I hope that changes at some point.
I'm an old vet and miss the old games, but I still enjoy the new ones. The problem is I don't enjoy them for long. Until FFXIV, I didn't play any game for over a month since early WoW.
I wonder how long the "newbs" enjoy these newer games. From what I can tell, they just hop from game to game every couple of weeks or months. I played games like EQ and DAoC for YEARS. Even played WoW for that long. Hell, I've been playing console games lately that last longer than MMOs.
The older games had more options, choices, longevity. I don't know about most people, but if I had the choice to choose between a game that offered a month of fun, then having to search for something else hoping to find something just as fun, or a game that I had fun playing for a year or longer, I'd take the latter every time. I think the "newbs" would too. Why wouldn't people want the fun to continue when the point of playing a game is to have fun. The problem is, those "newbs" probably never experienced that long of a game. (talking post WoW)
"Maybe you just don't like gaming anymore! I'm having fun!"
Feels like it's just the veterans vs the newbies.
The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.
Where as the newbies to MMOs, are perfectly happy. They are still not much beyond their "honeymoon period" of MMO and they never got to experience what the Veterans did "back in the day"... So they are happy with what they have and don't get why the more seasoned MMOers are so unhappy.
Who has the best position? Don't know.
I'd love to enjoy what we have now... But then, not if meant I never got experience things like "Back in the day". As I think you really "had to be there" to really appreciate the older MMOs. Newbies going back to them... I'd imagine they just seem old and boring.
This sounds alot like my grandpa telling me about the good old days when life used to be fun and people used to be nice to hang out with, while I try to explain to him that I can't imagine how he lived with these old traditions that I may find bizarre, finding the current life-style really normal.
''Clash of generation'' rather than anything else. Memories are usually beautiful regardless and therefore you will find that most people remember the old days as great ones, wether we are talking about gaming, friends or about other things in life.
Originally posted by koboldfodder Games WERE better back then. Not in terms of graphics or sound or any of the technical aspects of internet gaming, but they were most certainly better in terms of gameplay.
Early EQ, SWG before all the changes, Ultima Online and Asheron's Call. Those games had serious game systems whether it was crafting or group combat or questing or whatever.
WOW became popular because it was solo friendly and everything was easy, and that was the end of that.
It's sort of rare for things to devolve, usually things get better with time, but MMO gaming is certainly the exception to that rule. If you were not around for those early years 1999-2003 or so, you missed out on the best the genre had to offer. Anyone who played then will tell you there is no comparison with those games and the games today.
I played those to and i must correct you with WoW, Vanilla WoW was all but easy. 40 men raids where 1 guy could wipe a raid with a mistake isnt easy mode.
Getting rank 14 in pvp wasnt easy either as you needed time and stomp the oposition into the ground who were going for the same rank.
It wasnt untill WoTLK when things became easier and easier and reached the height of 12.7 million active subscribers.
But i agree with the timeframe of 1999/2003 sentiment.
The only mmo i play now is Eve Online, and its the only mmo i return to when there is just nothing worth spending time on. Good thing CCP is throwing a ton of extra sand in the box this year.
When i look on the list fo upcomming mmo's i cannot help myself an chuckle how bad the market has become.
Maybe Revival MMO in the distant has something worth throwing money at, but way to early to tell.
Seriously Axe.. you should really tone down that "MY WAY or the HIGHWAY" appearance.. I have a hint for you.. YOUR OPINION of fun is NOT universal fact.. FYI.. Now for some opinion responses:
1) Everything a company does is to earn revenue (FACT).. I have a news flash for you.. What is the difference in a company that creates 10 long grinding timesinks (as you call them) that takes 100 hours to complete.. or a company that creates 100 quick quest that take 100 hours to complete? Either way the company is getting 100 HOURS out of you, one way or the other.. It doesn't matter how many times you split the pie, it's still the whole pie.. Expansions are timesinks according to you because they are ONLY there to get you to subscribe longer.. LOL
2) I see the same fascist WW2 movie quotes in Stormwind too and others would chime in.. I've had a hell of a lot more chatting and fun socializing in a MMORPG game then any FPS PvP game.. I think most would agree with me.. OH wait, does that make me a member of the majority, so then that means you're wrong.. LOL You can't possibly have fun in the minority.. LOL
3) Given that I'm over 50 I'm confident I've had my share of FUN (according to my likes) from many angles and views.. With my age and wisdom tho, I have learned that my definition of fun is usually different then others.. I learn to respect others and their wishes.. Seriously if music was a majority rule business, we wouldn't have rap music to listen to, and I hate rap.. However, that doesn't mean I want to be a dictator and censor others peoples likes/dislikes..
4)So you are saying that if I want to swim laps at the community pool during peak hours, I can simply by ignoring the other 50 people in the pool..... ahhhhh OK.. I'll try that next time, maybe everyone will move out of my way do they don't interfere with my lap swimming.. The point here is that often the community and environment around you dictates your gameplay.. Now if we had the luxury of having servers that are tailored to our likings, I'm all for that.. But I have yet to see any serious attempt by a company to appease the minority..
1. You're essentially defending an orange juice company for watering their product down.
Company B created and sold 100 gallons of orange juice.
Company A created 10 gallons of orange juice and added 90 gallons of water.
Gameplay is the product. It's the orange juice. Creating just a little product, and watering it down by making players repeat it is simply watering down the orange juice.
Nobody's saying both companies aren't providing 100 gallons of something, but it should be clear which company is deliberately trying to con consumers.
2. What are you even saying here? It just sounds like you're agreeing with me that role-playing will happen whenever and wherever a role-player wants to role-play.
3. What are you even saying here? I'm merely describing the market forces involved and the reasons gameplay-focused games are made. Nothing about that implies only one type of game will be made, only that the popular types will be made much more frequently. It's just that the market for watered-down orange juice isn't very large.
4. Swimming pools have limited space. MMORPGs effectively don't. Assuming you need an exclusive space to role-play (which you don't), you can find such spaces in literally every MMORPG out there. Name the tiniest MMORPG you can think of: in that game you could still find a private area in which to role-play.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard Originally posted by Electro057Is there a group for sensible veterans that aren't stuck in the past and are capable of enjoying themselves?
I'm part of that group.
I started MMOs in UO early beta, and I must say the only thing I regret nowadays is that no "serious" game used UO as model and not EQ. But otherwise, I'm perfectly fine with the new games, GW2 and SW:TOR for instance are great games.
Count me as a happy vet. Still finding new games to enjoy.
Comments
You're completely correct about RP. Besides that, in general, these ideas about long travel times, mob camps, grinding, etc. that people hold onto as the end all be all of great MMORPG design not only don't mesh well with tradition table top RPG gaming, but it is the antithesis of it. While there are a million and one styles of table top rpg gaming, these "old school" MMO mechanics were extremely far way from replicating the experience. I would never accept a DM that told us to keep looking at our watch to see when we could arrive. I would never accept a DM that set up a situation where I indefinitely killed an unending stream of goblins (and never be in any danger) in order to "gain xp."
Honestly, it's the LACK of support for an actual game that made role-play nearly a requirement to enjoy the older titles. This is the crux right here - the older games were so poor as actual games that they REQUIRED people to be able to RP to enjoy them fully.
It's actually the complete opposite.
They always whine about the "good old days", next-gen is what they do NOT long for.
I sense this is your bid at humor but it must be based on an element of fact. You are completely wrong. It as been repeated far too many times that the "style" of game is what mmo vets want firmly build of next-gen tech and advanced design.
[mod edit]
You stay sassy!
EQ punished you for being stupid and not thinking about consequences, pure and simple. Sure people did things like train you, but if you knew what you were doing, you could always get even. Oh the fun of being an Iksar Monk...
New games have no consequences, period. You are rewarded for logging in. You learn more from failure than by successes. New games are a microcosm of society, so not having consequences should come as no surprise. Kids are coddled and shielded so much they can't handle hard work, learning for themselves, or God forbid, failure.
Gen. Patton said he judged a man not by how high climbed but by how high he bounced after he bottom. Think about that one people. New gamers are so concerned with being given success and not earning it that they can't handle failure. It's seen as punishment.
to all those that couldn't hack the time sinks, what in the hell is the gear grind? It's a not so cleverly designed time sink. Those down times allowed us to build friendships and OMG a community! Holy crap! A real life community where people actually chatted with other, help total strangers, and if you were worth a damn your name was known and you didn't have to beg for groups; groups begged you to join them. In other words, you didn't need a stupid group/raid finder. Those "mechanics" we're created so the crap players could find groups too. Every kid gets a trophy...
No, he is completely correct. All we get is pleas for old school design from "verterans." New concepts are constantly coming out and all they can do is complain about how it doesn't match their preconceived notions about what an MMO is "supposed" to be.
As many have stated before, the gameplay is not going to fix this problem...
1. Both of you are completely wrong and here is why
1. Were old school mmorpgs bad in many aspects - YES abso- damn lutely.
2. Did old school mmorpgs have more roleplaying aspects to their worlds? Yup! EQ1's questing system where quests were special and not a requirement, and when you did stumble upon one they took you around the world. EQ1's questing system (not the fed ex quests) took you around the world and were more akin to taking the ring to Mt. Doom in LOTR. You didn't HAVE to do them, they were not required at all. Also the language and conversation systems - you had to actually carry on a CONVERSATION with npcs to even get a quest at all. Don't mention the thing that they may be interested in? You don't get the quest. Imagine if some new company expounded on this with today's tech?
3. Old school mmos allowed more flexibility in gameplay. How so? I leveled an Erudite Paladin just by roleplaying and fighting off "trains". I didn't do quests, I didn't party with anyone, I soloed the entire way while rping, I made up how I wanted to play. I honestly had NO idea that EQ was a group oriented mmo until years after I stopped playing! The world was dangerous enough that I could sit ther and say "Hey I want to be a hero, so I am going to save people from monsters when I see them in trouble." What's even better yet? Erudite Paladins were so rare that when people saw this black Paladin run up to save them while being totally in character it provided something that today's mmos don't have - a competely random experience. One that did not require me having to roleplay with other roleplayers, but the fact that my roleplay which was mixed with playing the game my own way affected people who didn't. "Oh wait there's that Erudite Paladin who goes around saving people. I just found this awesome sword that I don't need. Let me give it to him." Nowadays its ALL about the gear grind, hell many new mmorpgs don't even put in rp servers anymore and the ones that do treat rp like its an afterthought. Player interaction matters little unless its getting together for PUGs. The fact that some kid playing the game for the first time can just say "Hey screw this, I'm going to level my own way, by roleplaying throughout and I'm still going to hit levels the entire ride" is simply non existent nowadays. There just is no incentive to this anymore. There is no incentive in the tunnel worlds to say "Screw this, I just want to go see that mountain today!" There is no sense of ADVENTURE anymore, EVERYTHING is about the level grind and getting some damn achievement to show off to some other peon. Or getting some new gear from the latest raid to show off that will not matter in six months because the next set of gear grind raids have just dropped.
New school gamers always complain about old school mmos being like a job. As if gear/level grinding is not a job!!?. MMO's have NEVER been about BEATING the game. There were no such thing as content locusts back in the old days because that's not what you were there for! In the old days you didn't care about rushing to Endgame, WTF is Endgame, how can a VIRTUAL WORLD have an Endgame? Isn't that an Oxymoron? Roleplaying in an mmo is not like roleplaying in a pen and paper game, because you have the entire world in an mmo at your disposal and its up to YOU on how you spend your time. Like the old saying "The WORLD IS YOUR OYSTER!". Pen and Paper games don't allow that kind of flexibility because you are being railroaded into the DM's story! Modern themeparks are nothing but being railroaded into the DM's story. Old mmos were "So hey where do YOU want to go today, what do YOU want to see? Go do it, and enjoy the journey itself!" Hell its why despite the technical issues many new school players had no idea what to do in a large sprawling world like Archeage - because they are used to having their hands held like they are a bunch of four year olds!
When your world is about rushing to Endgame to become nothing but a donkey chasing a carrot, you are not playing an mmorpg anymore, you are now the hamster in the maze. That is not an mmo, that is a platformer!
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
People still RP all the time in new MMORPGs. I know because I am occasionally part of it. Your entire rant is simply invalid because people RP in large numbers in newer MMORPGs. There are a ton of people that enjoy just being in a great setting and knowing the lore and being in each others company.
I agree with you though, those old school games don't follow PnP at all. I mean, that is exactly what I said and I'm glad you agree with me. They are literally almost the opposite of PnP games and newer versions of MMORPGs actually share more in common with them, by far, than older MMORPGs.
Your idea about level grind and how today's games are MORE about that than yesteryears? Completely ridiculous. EQ1 is the epitome of a level grind. That you would mention the level grind as a contrast in favor of old school games gives me chills down my spine. EQ1 is the epitome of a level grind.
I'll address one more thing. Endgame. Endgame is infinite. THE END OF A GAME is not. They are obviously different.
where do you get your nostalgia goggles? They work fantastic. . .
I especially like the part that vanilla WoW was solo friendly and thats what made it popular. . .
Compared to the leading mmo of that DAY which was EQ WoW vanilla was solo friendly.Being tasked to travel around the world isn't role-playing. Remember we're talking about subscription games here. Playtime is revenue. These excessive travel quests weren't designed to be deep, provocative gameplay. They were a money-grab.
The rest of the stuff is just on you. Turns out if you stop putting effort into playing a role in a game, nobody remembers you like they remembered your paladin. Who knew! Whereas in Planetside 2 the game isn't remotely about role-playing, yet my TR character would /yell random fascist WW2 movie quotes, and often others would chime in, joining with the fun.
Let's maybe be careful about the new school vs. old school talk. Gamers actually pre-date MMORPGs by quite a lot, so referring to early MMORPG players as "old school" is inaccurate. Old school gamers mostly cared about gameplay, and early MMORPGs had a lot less gameplay but required a lot more time than other games. This resulted in a diluted experience which just wasn't very fun compared to what you could experience in other games.
So it was rare to hear early MMORPGs criticized as jobs, so much as they were criticized for their lousy diluted gameplay.
But again, all of this just seems to be on you -- you're not willing to role-play in any game which isn't an empty shell, but really if you'd just put effort into actually role-playing, then nobody could stop you.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Seriously Axe.. you should really tone down that "MY WAY or the HIGHWAY" appearance.. I have a hint for you.. YOUR OPINION of fun is NOT universal fact.. FYI.. Now for some opinion responses:
1) Everything a company does is to earn revenue (FACT).. I have a news flash for you.. What is the difference in a company that creates 10 long grinding timesinks (as you call them) that takes 100 hours to complete.. or a company that creates 100 quick quest that take 100 hours to complete? Either way the company is getting 100 HOURS out of you, one way or the other.. It doesn't matter how many times you split the pie, it's still the whole pie.. Expansions are timesinks according to you because they are ONLY there to get you to subscribe longer.. LOL
2) I see the same fascist WW2 movie quotes in Stormwind too and others would chime in.. I've had a hell of a lot more chatting and fun socializing in a MMORPG game then any FPS PvP game.. I think most would agree with me.. OH wait, does that make me a member of the majority, so then that means you're wrong.. LOL You can't possibly have fun in the minority.. LOL
3) Given that I'm over 50 I'm confident I've had my share of FUN (according to my likes) from many angles and views.. With my age and wisdom tho, I have learned that my definition of fun is usually different then others.. I learn to respect others and their wishes.. Seriously if music was a majority rule business, we wouldn't have rap music to listen to, and I hate rap.. However, that doesn't mean I want to be a dictator and censor others peoples likes/dislikes..
4)So you are saying that if I want to swim laps at the community pool during peak hours, I can simply by ignoring the other 50 people in the pool..... ahhhhh OK.. I'll try that next time, maybe everyone will move out of my way do they don't interfere with my lap swimming.. The point here is that often the community and environment around you dictates your gameplay.. Now if we had the luxury of having servers that are tailored to our likings, I'm all for that.. But I have yet to see any serious attempt by a company to appease the minority..
i started playing mmos 5 years ago and i was impressed for about 2 years and now i cant stand them.
they are all the same,huge hype and cash grab,after a view days you realise its the same game basically only with a different name.
You didn't miss much (except for watching it all "unfold").
Even with updated graphics many of the older MMOs would be dismissed as rubbish by the great majority of players today. Many of them were full of horrible gameplay elements that served little purpose except to create timesinks. Sitting down to "rest" for a minute after whacking a few mobs would have most people quitting the game very quickly these days.
Then there were death penalties that you had to rest off for x amount of time (cumulative even if I'm remembering some of them correctly) forcing even more downtime on you. Death penalties that could rob you of days of progress if your internet failed you, or if some jerk trained you with a gazillion mobs or griefed you in some other way.
I'll take today's games anytime.
This. This, so much. I don't need to a game that punishes me left and right. I need a place to explore and roleplay.
Tell me, how is that working out for you? The old games are still vastly superior to roleplay in and explore than anything new.
Yep, as someone who has been roleplaying in mmorpgs since EQ1 I totally agree with this. Today's shoebox mmorpg worlds are horrible compared to the mmorpgs of yesteryear. Hell even ArcheAge with its more traditionally designed old school mmorpg world with all its glorious nooks and crannies, real sized oceans, etc makes mmos like FFXIV:ARR look pathetic with its shoebox sized world that is pretty but nothing but a bunch of interconnected tunnels. Too bad Trion/XL can't fix the damn cheaters worth a damn otherwise I'd still be there. Real world sized mmorpgs like SWG, Vanguard, EQ and hell even Vanilla WoW completely spit on todays shoebox, invisible wall mmorpgs for roleplay. Who the fuck wants to keep to the samn damn tunnel city anymore for rp, to the same damn cafe? Where are the days where you could find some random off the beaten path village for rp anymore and find an actual community there? Or even better yet find an mmorpg to play in where there are SEVERAL cities used for rp, not just one and not just the same three block radius in the middle of one. The old school mmos had features that REWARDED rp and are nowadays nothing more than que for party dungeon grinds where you don't even have to leave the damn cities anymore to get to said dungeon. Where is the journey? Not in mmos I'll tell you that!
*Amaare Margolis, Treasure Hunter Extraordinaire ;-)
If Brad has his way those days are going to be reborn with Pantheon, like him or dislike him I really think the crafty old fox is going to pull it of. With the debacle that was EQN Brad and team have everything to play for.Is there a group for sensible veterans that aren't stuck in the past and are capable of enjoying themselves?
You don't see me pining for Max Payne 1 graphics or gameplay, I'm quite fine with new games.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis---
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I knew it!
Damn coffee mug.....
I feel stuck in this mode.
Dude I still rp in the newer mmorpgs, what I am saying is that the new mmos roleplay environments don't compare. And as far as more people rping? Sure I love that, but I would have rather had today's rp populations in a game like Vanguard with its world scope and size. Imagine todays rp population in mmos like Vanguard or ArcheAge where you can build boats and sail around the world for example? Or with systems like SWG, Vanguard and AA's crafting systems all working together in unison WHILE rping? Sorry but new games like FFXIV don't compare when it comes to providing immersive rp evironments. Even FFXI did an infinitely better job than XIV with providing a WORLD.
Also was EQ1 a level grind? Yes, but there were five different ways you could approach how to "level while grinding", that is the difference....and it was nice to see that nobody was "rushing to endgame" in two weeks.
See the problem is Freedom, today's games are far too streamlined for my tastes. Only two ways to solve the problem, instead of multiple in old mmos.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I agree with what you've written. When we have to work hard to obtain something, the feeling of satisfaction we get seem true and valuable, while the gratification systems based on immediacy, in my opinion, only simulate the real reward our brain is asking for. Now I don't know where all this will lead us, but I hope the next generations will learn the benefits of patience and hard-working.
Asheron's Call was my first MMO and still my favorite to this day. However have played manyMMOs since then. Some have been great, others not so much. The only thing I've found is that I don't tend to stick around in them as long as I would in earlier games. I tend to play, stop if I'm getting bored, and then go back to revisit them. I'm on my third revisit to WoW and must say that I'm really enjoying myself. ESO will be my next destination followed by TSW. Lately I'm more of a tourist versus a long term resident. I hope that changes at some point.
Really no bitterness on my end.
I'm an old vet and miss the old games, but I still enjoy the new ones. The problem is I don't enjoy them for long. Until FFXIV, I didn't play any game for over a month since early WoW.
I wonder how long the "newbs" enjoy these newer games. From what I can tell, they just hop from game to game every couple of weeks or months. I played games like EQ and DAoC for YEARS. Even played WoW for that long. Hell, I've been playing console games lately that last longer than MMOs.
The older games had more options, choices, longevity. I don't know about most people, but if I had the choice to choose between a game that offered a month of fun, then having to search for something else hoping to find something just as fun, or a game that I had fun playing for a year or longer, I'd take the latter every time. I think the "newbs" would too. Why wouldn't people want the fun to continue when the point of playing a game is to have fun. The problem is, those "newbs" probably never experienced that long of a game. (talking post WoW)
This sounds alot like my grandpa telling me about the good old days when life used to be fun and people used to be nice to hang out with, while I try to explain to him that I can't imagine how he lived with these old traditions that I may find bizarre, finding the current life-style really normal.
''Clash of generation'' rather than anything else. Memories are usually beautiful regardless and therefore you will find that most people remember the old days as great ones, wether we are talking about gaming, friends or about other things in life.
I played those to and i must correct you with WoW, Vanilla WoW was all but easy.
40 men raids where 1 guy could wipe a raid with a mistake isnt easy mode.
Getting rank 14 in pvp wasnt easy either as you needed time and stomp the oposition into the ground who were going for the same rank.
It wasnt untill WoTLK when things became easier and easier and reached the height of 12.7 million active subscribers.
But i agree with the timeframe of 1999/2003 sentiment.
The only mmo i play now is Eve Online, and its the only mmo i return to when there is just nothing worth spending time on.
Good thing CCP is throwing a ton of extra sand in the box this year.
When i look on the list fo upcomming mmo's i cannot help myself an chuckle how bad the market has become.
Maybe Revival MMO in the distant has something worth throwing money at, but way to early to tell.
1. You're essentially defending an orange juice company for watering their product down.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I started MMOs in UO early beta, and I must say the only thing I regret nowadays is that no "serious" game used UO as model and not EQ. But otherwise, I'm perfectly fine with the new games, GW2 and SW:TOR for instance are great games.
Count me as a happy vet. Still finding new games to enjoy.