- Sitting and medding up to regain health and mana is a decision...made by the player. They don't HAVE to do it.
- Sitting and medding up to regain health and mana, and starting a conversation with a group member or a random player just doing the same sitting near them is a decision. They don't HAVE to do it.
- Deciding to hoof it across the world or via mount instead of through the means of instant teleportation is a decision made by the player. They don't HAVE to do it.
I agree that cut scenes provide no gameplay. Especially since they have no place in an MMORPG. You are just sitting there watching it. No interaction what so ever other than...watching it. They should stay in console games and PC RPG games.
The decision to recover is a gameplay decision. It's one decision though. It's up to the game whether to keep the decisions flowing (~10 sec downtime) or not (several minutes of downtime where no additional decisions occur.) Players are pretty good at sniffing out when their time is being wasted, even if they don't measure things objectively (eg 0.2 decisions / minute) This is why games never lock players into this sort of non-gameplay if they can help it.
A conversation isn't a gameplay decision. It doesn't relate to the game's rules. You wouldn't say a movie has gameplay, and you also wouldn't say talking during a movie has gameplay (even though the conversation will involve decisions.) So relating to a game's rules is an important part of the definition.
Deciding to initiate a long trip in-game is exactly like the recovery. The first decision is one decision and it's up to the game to keep the rate of decisions flowing, otherwise the game feels like it's deliberately wasting players' time (which in the case of MMORPGs is actually true, since they want players to subscribe longer.)
Cutscenes lack gameplay, but at least they provide entertainment. Whereas things like travel and downtime don't. So cutscenes are much better in that regard, and as long as they're implemented wisely they can be fine in MMORPGs (always skippable, especially in group play.)
Wow......just wow. Cutscenes are entertaining? To what? Just sit there like a lump and watch without having to touch the keyboard or mouse at all?
At least in travel you are still interacting with the environment. You still have to watch where you are going. You still have to direct your character's heading. You still have to gt to you destination.
You have a very strange way of looking at it.
You can actually try playing some of this games you bash so you can actually know what youre talking about.
Any or all of those will do:
GW2, SWTOR, ESO
But until that time ill just continue laughing.
I was in SWToR and played ESO for nearly 2 years. Amongst others I gave at least 3+ months to draw me in.
I don't recall bashing any particular game. Just that cutscenes are not gameplay (In my discussion with Axehilt) and I feel they have no place in MMORPG's personally. Does that mean those who like them shouldn't have these games they like because I don't? Nope. Too bad that isn't a two way road. Yet I am the basher.
Gotta be hard to laugh with your foot in your mouth.
You dont just change the definition of words upon your whim to suit your needs.
The qzuestion is not should there be or not certain type of MMO. If you asked me im all for it.
The problem is, you see, that there isnt enough people to support such MMO unless you have sugar daddy paying bills for it (which SOE was for a while) or volunteers working on it.
The other problem is, you see, most of these people usually insult those who play other games as morons.
Also theres a matter of repeatin phrase "real MMO" in various forms.
And so on and so on.
And, just FYI, those cutscenes are more gameplay than camping, for instance. You may have your opinion that contradicts the facts, but your opinion is your opinion and facts are facts.
I started playing MMO's a few years after EQ came out. I liked it but it was very difficult originally. I tried WoW later and hated it. And SWG which I started when NGE hit and I've always wanted to play the pre-NGE game but never had the chance (I have found some sites that do offer it but when I try, I get frustrated pretty quick because there literally is NO explanation on what to do or where and NO quests of any sort so its pretty much kill stuff which is boring).
It wasn't till EQ2 that I fell in love with an MMO. It was my game, and I still love it. When they went f2p I was very upset. Not because of the f2p. By that time, LOTRO had come out with f2p and it was quite fair. EQ2 though... that one really made me angry. Because the devs and community leaders, and all the rest just blew us off. Everyone was angry and we had valid questions. Finally, smedly came on and started talking to us. And his answers were the equivalent of "we are going to screw you over, just trust us". He blew us off so much that we all started getting very angry because he wouldn't answer any of our questions whatsoever. And I quit.
Since that time, I've been looking for my new MMO home. I've tried probably a good 50 or 60 games and haven't found it. I missed the game so much that, after years of saying that I wouldn't cave to play the game again, I went back a few months ago as a f2p player. I had no idea just how much I missed it. The pc toons are still really ugly but the rest of the game isn't, and that music still makes me smile. Bristlebane Day is running right now and I was playing the event last night. Going to do it again tonight. It feels like coming home.
EQ Next... I'm not impressed with Landmark, so I somehow really think I won't be impressed with EQ Next. But we will see. And I'm still under NDA so I can't give any info, sorry.
There are definitely things that could be done better. We need a real live world that changes and that we can impact. Citadel of Sorcery MIGHT be an option but its been in development 8 years with no hint of release. Every single game that I have played since I left EQ2 the first time makes alot of promises but doesn't fulfill any of them. In fact, every game since then actually offers less. LOTRO came close but their housing is terrible and in the years of false promises, they have still not done anything about it and probably won't.
And then we see articles from devs complaining about how its getting harder to impress people with pretty graphics and they don't know what to do. They keep getting told "so provide a better game" by players, and the players keep getting ignored. Instead, we get games that provide pve and pvp, and very little else except gimmicks that bore people quickly. Some developers (I'm looking at you CCP) are actually proud of the fact that they can develop a game in a year and a half.
I don't currently hold much hope for the genre. And I think I'm in good company when I say that others feel the same way. Because they still don't get it and they probably won't because the quick buck is what everyone is after, not quality. It's pitiful.
Oh, but they DO listen to the "players". Ask WS how it ended up.
- Sitting and medding up to regain health and mana is a decision...made by the player. They don't HAVE to do it.
- Sitting and medding up to regain health and mana, and starting a conversation with a group member or a random player just doing the same sitting near them is a decision. They don't HAVE to do it.
- Deciding to hoof it across the world or via mount instead of through the means of instant teleportation is a decision made by the player. They don't HAVE to do it.
I agree that cut scenes provide no gameplay. Especially since they have no place in an MMORPG. You are just sitting there watching it. No interaction what so ever other than...watching it. They should stay in console games and PC RPG games.
The decision to recover is a gameplay decision. It's one decision though. It's up to the game whether to keep the decisions flowing (~10 sec downtime) or not (several minutes of downtime where no additional decisions occur.) Players are pretty good at sniffing out when their time is being wasted, even if they don't measure things objectively (eg 0.2 decisions / minute) This is why games never lock players into this sort of non-gameplay if they can help it.
A conversation isn't a gameplay decision. It doesn't relate to the game's rules. You wouldn't say a movie has gameplay, and you also wouldn't say talking during a movie has gameplay (even though the conversation will involve decisions.) So relating to a game's rules is an important part of the definition.
Deciding to initiate a long trip in-game is exactly like the recovery. The first decision is one decision and it's up to the game to keep the rate of decisions flowing, otherwise the game feels like it's deliberately wasting players' time (which in the case of MMORPGs is actually true, since they want players to subscribe longer.)
Cutscenes lack gameplay, but at least they provide entertainment. Whereas things like travel and downtime don't. So cutscenes are much better in that regard, and as long as they're implemented wisely they can be fine in MMORPGs (always skippable, especially in group play.)
Wow......just wow. Cutscenes are entertaining? To what? Just sit there like a lump and watch without having to touch the keyboard or mouse at all?
At least in travel you are still interacting with the environment. You still have to watch where you are going. You still have to direct your character's heading. You still have to gt to you destination.
You have a very strange way of looking at it.
You can actually try playing some of this games you bash so you can actually know what youre talking about.
Any or all of those will do:
GW2, SWTOR, ESO
But until that time ill just continue laughing.
I was in SWToR and played ESO for nearly 2 years. Amongst others I gave at least 3+ months to draw me in.
I don't recall bashing any particular game. Just that cutscenes are not gameplay (In my discussion with Axehilt) and I feel they have no place in MMORPG's personally. Does that mean those who like them shouldn't have these games they like because I don't? Nope. Too bad that isn't a two way road. Yet I am the basher.
Gotta be hard to laugh with your foot in your mouth.
You dont just change the definition of words upon your whim to suit your needs.
The qzuestion is not should there be or not certain type of MMO. If you asked me im all for it.
The problem is, you see, that there isnt enough people to support such MMO unless you have sugar daddy paying bills for it (which SOE was for a while) or volunteers working on it.
The other problem is, you see, most of these people usually insult those who play other games as morons.
Also theres a matter of repeatin phrase "real MMO" in various forms.
And so on and so on.
And, just FYI, those cutscenes are more gameplay than camping, for instance. You may have your opinion that contradicts the facts, but your opinion is your opinion and facts are facts.
Where did I change a definition to suit my needs? I never even gave a definition for anything.
Your last set of lines are humorous.
Camping, at least, involves hunting an area of particular mobs for xp and loot. It requires you to pull mobs, manage your health/mana, ry to not pull more than you can handle knowing aggro ranges, and trying not to die. Sure, you may sit to regain health and mana, but you can chat during that time. Any of the stated require interaction and commands by the player.
A cutscene is just sitting and watching a short film scroll along without doing anything else, other than maybe hitting esc to end the cutscene. Now how is that gameplay more so?.
I do agree with the ones that say "REAL MMO" though. It is annoying and just insights flaming.
Nothing at all wrong with liking other MMO's. They all have their place and are made to attract particular players. It's people who completely disregard anothers likes or to comprimise is where it gets irritating.
I have never said EQ was without problems. Nor have I ever said that there weren't features in modern MMORPG's I liked and thought weren't improvements (I.E. Please seek out my thread "Say it's Nostalgia all you want...). You seem only interested in saying how no one wants old school MMORPG's...yet, I see thread after thread and response after response to the contrary.
Not only that, because forums does not equate the majority of PC gamers, but in many of the games I have played I have heard the yearnings for old school. And that doesn't mean I would want every feature from them. Mainly those that lent to community.
And yeah yeah. I have seen you gloat many times that you supposedly are in the industry. If so, with who? What types of games are you working on? Do tell.
I'm pretty specific in my criticism. I don't think everything about early MMORPGs was bad, and they deserve respect for starting a genre I enjoy.
But games are largely measured by how much entertainment they provide relative to the time they demand. And in 1999 when lots of early MMORPGs were coming out you also had all these great gameplay-focused games like System Shock 2, Quake 3, UT, AOE2, and more. For every hour a player put into these games, they delivered a lot of entertainment.
Meanwhile in the MMORPGs, if you put an hour into the game you might see fully half of that time lost to timesinks like travel or recovery.
So I stopped playing each of those early MMORPGs without subscribing, purely on the basis of their sparse gameplay. It wasn't until recently that I made the connection that the rise of the subscription model was the reason for the rise of timesink-heavy games (it's really only ever been MMORPGs, with their time-based business model, which have ever been this timesink-heavy as games.)
I never share my current company, since I enjoy being free to discuss things without worrying about people making the mistake of thinking I speak for the company in some way. However you can find my name in AOE2: Conqueror's xpack, Mechwarrior 4 and xpacks, and Rise of Nations and xpacks (including my alias "Axehilt" which I've used for a very long time.) Sadly I didn't get into the credits for Perfect Dark (N64). More recently I worked on Reckoning Kingdoms of Amalur for the first couple years of its development. Lately I've been working on mobile games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Camping, at least, involves hunting an area of particular mobs for xp and loot. It requires you to pull mobs, manage your health/mana, ry to not pull more than you can handle knowing aggro ranges, and trying not to die. Sure, you may sit to regain health and mana, but you can chat during that time. Any of the stated require interaction and commands by the player.
A cutscene is just sitting and watching a short film scroll along without doing anything else, other than maybe hitting esc to end the cutscene. Now how is that gameplay more so?.
Right, camping involves combat gameplay which is oftentimes quite a lot of decision-making (gameplay) while cutscenes involve no decisions (no gameplay.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So I stopped playing each of those early MMORPGs without subscribing, purely on the basis of their sparse gameplay. It wasn't until recently that I made the connection that the rise of the subscription model was the reason for the rise of timesink-heavy games (it's really only ever been MMORPGs, with their time-based business model, which have ever been this timesink-heavy as games.)
I dont think you really were ever involved in the MMO scene....ever
All of what you said is so foreign to me....time sinks were in a few MMOs but in very few instances and were frequented by those that had the time and will....but were in no way experienced by the majority.
The Sub model was always there...and had nothing to do with any time sink. I just dont understand the blather you posted....sorry....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Quite honestly, you guys will never come to a conclusion in this discussion unless you start talking about game design for specific audiences.
Typically when we (old timers who want some old school MMO features) are discussing what we would want in a game it is some cool dude who has to come in and tell us we are all old farts who don't know what we want, nostalgia, rose-colored glasses, blah blah blah blah blah blah. We ARE talking about game design for a specific audience...US. Just the cool kids can't let us have what we want, that would be asking too much. Maybe instead of flooding our threads with crap they should be playing all of their "great" MMOs that are out?
For me i just feel the older mmo's had something that's missing from the new one's of today. ESO really doesn't feel like a Elder Scrolls game at all to me. And now you have to worry about them being made for Console's then ported to PC. I'VE had enough of this now. MMO's used to be made for Computer gamer's. Now we are treated as paying Beta testers until the game is ready for console.
Originally posted by Hariken For me i just feel the older mmo's had something that's missing from the new one's of today. ESO really doesn't feel like a Elder Scrolls game at all to me. And now you have to worry about them being made for Console's then ported to PC. I'VE had enough of this now. MMO's used to be made for Computer gamer's. Now we are treated as paying Beta testers until the game is ready for console.
ESO was never meant to feel that way to you....never said it was intended. Was made in the ES universe is all...but to add MMO elements, would change everything. Most of us knew this. We all wondered why the rest of you could not grasp the concept.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
So I stopped playing each of those early MMORPGs without subscribing, purely on the basis of their sparse gameplay. It wasn't until recently that I made the connection that the rise of the subscription model was the reason for the rise of timesink-heavy games (it's really only ever been MMORPGs, with their time-based business model, which have ever been this timesink-heavy as games.)
I dont think you really were ever involved in the MMO scene....ever
All of what you said is so foreign to me....time sinks were in a few MMOs but in very few instances and were frequented by those that had the time and will....but were in no way experienced by the majority.
The Sub model was always there...and had nothing to do with any time sink. I just dont understand the blather you posted....sorry....
Although I disagree with a lot of things Axehilt has to say a lot of the time, I know what he's saying here. In his defense, he's basically saying that older MMORPG's were heavy in time sinks, not as much for the purpose of community building, which happened through the players making that happen anyways....but more so because the game was subscription based (Monthly fee).
The more time you spent in game, the more money the company made. Longer time sinks, meant more of a chance you'd re-up that sub in order for the player to reach particular goals they wished to meet.
I see a lot of "rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia" vs. "MMO nooblets" discussions flying around. In reading some of these threads here and on a few of the forums of games I am currently playing, it got me thinking about how this all started for me.
And why it sometimes tastes so sour. Not just the MMO experience, but the divide between the new and the old, in terms of when people started their MMO gaming lives.
I had a roommate my freshman year in college who I don't believe ever left our dorm room. He was an EQ addict. I don't know any other word for it; he was addicted. Whenever I hear of some kid in Korea starving to death in an internet cafe, I think about this guy. For about 6 months I watched with horror and disgust as he became smellier and smellier and more socially withdrawn from the world around him. I didn't have a super high opinion of the MMO genre at the time. I ended up buying a copy and starting a character to try to connect with him on some level. It's how we became friends, but I was terrible at the game (didn't understand core concepts like "The Trinity" and what things like "Tank" meant) and I'm pretty sure I spent more time doing corpse runs than anything else. I didn't get much out of my initial stint with EQ (I later found a love for it), other than being quasi-forced into this new genre I hadn't heard anything about.
Much like first love, everyone holds a special place in their heart from their first true MMO experience. I know for me, it changed what I expected from a video game experience. I never looked back.
My first REAL MMO experience came a few years after my first stint in EQ (which at the time was more of an attempt at intervention for a stranger I was forced to live with). I remember the first time I logged into an MMORPG that I had sought out and decided to play just for my own pure personal enjoyment. SWG. I spent about an hour making my first character. For some reason, I needed it to be just right. For the first time I was handed a tool-set to make damn near whatever I wanted to, and man did I spend time looking at every possibility. Anyway, I finally finished creating my character and onto the server I went. I got to choose my starting skill set and which city my character would be born into. My Wookie Brawler popped into Coronet, the capital city of Corellia, and I was overwhelmed. I spent the next 3 or so hours just wandering everywhere I could go in the city. Eventually I found some low level mobs I could punch to death. Wait, is that a knife in my inventory? *stabstabstab* After a time I literally had no idea what to do next. So I did what any logical person would do in this situation.
I asked in chat.
Me: I've seen this whole city, what am I supposed to do now?
Someone: WHATEVER YOU WANT.
Those of us who were un/fortunate enough (completely a matter of perspective) to experience what is considered the "early days" of MMO gaming were treated to a wonderful and brutal tossing to the wolves. And I believe my first real random interaction in my first real MMO gaming experience sums that up perfectly. There were no tutorials, mission-giver markers, online wiki guides or anything of the like.
It was thousands upon thousands of people being dumped into a new world and being left to figure out how it all worked; and often times DIDN'T work.
Me: What do you mean whatever I want? What am I SUPPOSED to do?
Someone: You're SUPPOSED to do whatever you want. I'm in a group headed for what we heard is a warzone south of here. Want to come?
Hell yes I did! This naked, ill-equipped newborn Wookie brawler couldn't wait to find a stormtrooper to punch in the face with his starter knife. For the better part of 4 hours, 20 of us braved the virgin wilds of Coronet. No one had any real idea where this supposed battlefield was. A guy apparently knew a guy who knew a guy who gave him rough coordinates to it. We wandered mostly aimlessly, in the general direction we thought we were meant to go. We stumbled onto groups of mobs that we went to town on, and it maybe took a time or two to learn that not everything in the world was beatable just yet. But right out of the clone station, we headed right back out to our supposed destination. Eventually, we came upon the battlefield. And I shit you not, a lagfest ensued that could only be described as fearing your computer was breathing its last breath, and in less than 5 seconds we were popping back up in a clone station while reading a system message about how some turret just killed us. We spent 4 hours together to get there, only to be shipped back in 5 seconds. That was the beginning of a guild that lasted for over TEN YEARS (through a dozen games), and a few friendships that will last our lifetimes.
This is what made those games back then both great and terrible at the same time. That feeling of being lost in a virtual world, banding together to do some random shit, only to have it all blow up in our face because it was bugged to all hell because we were in a game with so many broken parts they made it into a new game instead of fixing it. But even in a broken game that didn't even know you had a hand that needed to be held, some of my most memorable and fun gaming experiences took place. This was because the content we experienced was created by US. We were given the tools to have a good time, but it was on US to make that happen. And WE DID, despite many of those tools being broken and useless. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making a case for games without content. I am, however, making a case for player-driven content being a necessity for a great MMO.
I think when nostalgia starts creeping up on us, we are generally thinking about how amazing it was to first experience these kinds of things. I, for one, am glad I got those experiences on old broken games that had no time for hand holding or polish. Or working game features. I am glad my first experiences didn't train me to look for exclamation points and question marks and quest hubs. Or to run the exact same content that every other player to ever play the game ran. I am glad that my experiences encouraged me to band together with strangers and EXPLORE. And die. And die some more. But that was all part of the fun, the danger.
What gets lost in this discussion a lot of the times, is that we want our cake and eat it too. Yes, we think most of these newer MMOs suck sweaty donkey balls. No, we do not think all of these wonderful new features are without their merit. If we could get a new game that TRULY captures what those old days were like with all these bells and whistles. A game that doesn't just reward grouping, but necessitates it. A game with built-in systems to bring players together, instead of making the whole thing solo-able. A game to get lost in. A game that fosters a sense of community....I would like to say we'd love every one of the advances our genre has made.
But would we? Is our current community something we want to be forced into? The vast majority of what used to be a niche in gaming has now since exploded in size and has been trained to follow the path to look for the next quest hub. Trained that MMOs should be delivered in bite-sized, lunch-hour break time periods. Trained that content generation is a burden and that it is to be shouldered solely by the developers. Granted, that is what the majority of the community is paying for now, but could it be the like it was in the old days in the right game?
And even if they do make that perfect game....would it ever live up to our first love, or are we truly reaching for the unattainable? Would these folks who came into the genre later in the game ever be able to feel that sense of wonder and unity in the face of being overwhelmed and underprepared, or would they just run to the forums to QQ over not getting the instant gratification of an easy victory between dinner and dessert? Would these folks even accept the notion that we are partially responsible for content generation, and that it is indeed the best content one can find?
I wish we could have our cake and also eat it, but it seems like an awful lot to expect from developers.
I think they can bring back the virtual world but not the feeling. Like everyone else said the Internet itself removes the mystery that we fell in love with. Stuck? Look up a guide, hell watch a video and have someone do it for you. I dont think grouping should be mandatory because that limits the experience. It should be encouraged.
But I also believe the audience has changed, as I know when I started playing most people at that time enjoyed the challenge and the progress. Where today's generation I don't see as open to it. They seem fine to happily accept lobby-based instant gratification (yet find it odd they continue to complain about it).
So I stopped playing each of those early MMORPGs without subscribing, purely on the basis of their sparse gameplay. It wasn't until recently that I made the connection that the rise of the subscription model was the reason for the rise of timesink-heavy games (it's really only ever been MMORPGs, with their time-based business model, which have ever been this timesink-heavy as games.)
I dont think you really were ever involved in the MMO scene....ever
All of what you said is so foreign to me....time sinks were in a few MMOs but in very few instances and were frequented by those that had the time and will....but were in no way experienced by the majority.
The Sub model was always there...and had nothing to do with any time sink. I just dont understand the blather you posted....sorry....
Although I disagree with a lot of things Axehilt has to say a lot of the time, I know what he's saying here. In his defense, he's basically saying that older MMORPG's were heavy in time sinks, not as much for the purpose of community building, which happened through the players making that happen anyways....but more so because the game was subscription based (Monthly fee).
The more time you spent in game, the more money the company made. Longer time sinks, meant more of a chance you'd re-up that sub in order for the player to reach particular goals they wished to meet.
They were NOT time sinks...they were what we played. "Time sink" is a modern term. Something that the elite decided to come up with. Back then...we just played. Yes the definition might be the same to you....but it isn't the same.
Meaning...back then, we just played. There was no fancy terms for everything. You people are trying to apply today's jackass terms to a day when we had none of it....
So...musings of an MMO vet...from a REAL one....STOP applying today's terms to the past
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
The term was around long before then and is a major reason why many people left the genre back then. Eq 2000 wad when i first heard the term grind when talking about s video game.
And subs were not always around.
And subs weren't
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar The term was around long before then and is a major reason why many people left the genre back then. Eq 2000 wad when i first heard the term grind when talking about s video game.
And subs were not always around.
And subs weren't
Subs WERE around....but time sinks were not....have fun in your world
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar The genre started with pay per hour but maybe you weren't around for that.
And maybe you dont get that time sink had nothing to do with the old pay by hour. Or pay by month......because there were no time sinks then....none that the real players remember
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I dont think you really were ever involved in the MMO scene....ever
All of what you said is so foreign to me....time sinks were in a few MMOs but in very few instances and were frequented by those that had the time and will....but were in no way experienced by the majority.
The Sub model was always there...and had nothing to do with any time sink. I just dont understand the blather you posted....sorry....
The 1999 games I listed were basically a non-stop series of decisions.
The MMORPGs around the same time (AC, DAOC, AC2, SB, EVE, L2, FF11, etc) involved brief series of simple decisions (because the combat tended to be shallow), repeated for a while, followed by significant downtime (resting) all of which was preceded and followed by time-consuming travel. That's just how the game rules of these games caused the games to play out.
Every gaming forum I visited around that time mentioned MMORPGs' timesinks as a big negative to playing them. (With the clear implication that unlike a game like Civ2 which took a lot of time but involved non-stop gameplay, these games took a lot of time...and offered far fewer decisions than typical games.)
Subscription games have not always existed. Non-subscription games have almost never involved timesinks anywhere near as tedious as the ones found in subscription games. So no, I assure you the rise of timesink-focused games definitely was a money-grab associated with the subscription model. (See also the lead designer of CoH who says, "A Timesink is an artificial method to get you, the player, to play an MMO longer than you normally would. It is hoped that this time investment will translate into extended subscription, but if not handled properly, this can backfire spectacularly.")
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I guess you don't remember right.
Id say it has something to do with words "rose", "glasses", "nostalgia"
Unfortunately thats the problem, part of "vets" just dont want to accept truth about "old school" games and usually assign properties to certain features that just aint there.
WoW is evolution of EQ, wheter they like it or not, wether they accept ti or not, thats how it is.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I guess you don't remember right.
Id say it has something to do with words "rose", "glasses", "nostalgia"
Unfortunately thats the problem, part of "vets" just dont want to accept truth about "old school" games and usually assign properties to certain features that just aint there.
WoW is evolution of EQ, wheter they like it or not, wether they accept ti or not, thats how it is.
You mean sort of like how a tiger is an "evolution" in predators from a Velociraptor?
Both are good at what they do, but the earlier version was clearly better.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I guess you don't remember right.
Id say it has something to do with words "rose", "glasses", "nostalgia"
Unfortunately thats the problem, part of "vets" just dont want to accept truth about "old school" games and usually assign properties to certain features that just aint there.
WoW is evolution of EQ, wheter they like it or not, wether they accept ti or not, thats how it is.
You mean sort of like how a tiger is an "evolution" in predators from a Velociraptor?
Both are good at what they do, but the earlier version was clearly better.
Actually no, more of evolution from Model T to Mustang
So I stopped playing each of those early MMORPGs without subscribing, purely on the basis of their sparse gameplay. It wasn't until recently that I made the connection that the rise of the subscription model was the reason for the rise of timesink-heavy games (it's really only ever been MMORPGs, with their time-based business model, which have ever been this timesink-heavy as games.)
I dont think you really were ever involved in the MMO scene....ever
All of what you said is so foreign to me....time sinks were in a few MMOs but in very few instances and were frequented by those that had the time and will....but were in no way experienced by the majority.
The Sub model was always there...and had nothing to do with any time sink. I just dont understand the blather you posted....sorry....
Although I disagree with a lot of things Axehilt has to say a lot of the time, I know what he's saying here. In his defense, he's basically saying that older MMORPG's were heavy in time sinks, not as much for the purpose of community building, which happened through the players making that happen anyways....but more so because the game was subscription based (Monthly fee).
The more time you spent in game, the more money the company made. Longer time sinks, meant more of a chance you'd re-up that sub in order for the player to reach particular goals they wished to meet.
They were NOT time sinks...they were what we played. "Time sink" is a modern term. Something that the elite decided to come up with. Back then...we just played. Yes the definition might be the same to you....but it isn't the same.
Meaning...back then, we just played. There was no fancy terms for everything. You people are trying to apply today's jackass terms to a day when we had none of it....
So...musings of an MMO vet...from a REAL one....STOP applying today's terms to the past
Exactly. in the 80-90s there were lots of games where you repeatedly done stuff to collect currency/xp to improve. Nobody called it time sinks. In the early 2000's technology moved on, now we had persistent worlds where we quested, done dungeons, and repeated content to generate xp, faction rep, gear. We didn't call them time sinks then either. Now modern games offer very diverse gameplay including repeatable content that players can opt in to. Things move on.
Again, this is aboutintent. There is one scenario for example where I would describe something as a time-sink and that's where a development team deliberately design content to be a time filler instead of a healthy proportional investment on content for monies received from player. I call out games that release little content over time, and the content they do release is small repeatable dungeons etc rather than broad and deep extensions to the virtual world/gameplay. That's a timesink.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
You dont just change the definition of words upon your whim to suit your needs.
The qzuestion is not should there be or not certain type of MMO. If you asked me im all for it.
The problem is, you see, that there isnt enough people to support such MMO unless you have sugar daddy paying bills for it (which SOE was for a while) or volunteers working on it.
The other problem is, you see, most of these people usually insult those who play other games as morons.
Also theres a matter of repeatin phrase "real MMO" in various forms.
And so on and so on.
And, just FYI, those cutscenes are more gameplay than camping, for instance. You may have your opinion that contradicts the facts, but your opinion is your opinion and facts are facts.
Oh, but they DO listen to the "players". Ask WS how it ended up.
Where did I change a definition to suit my needs? I never even gave a definition for anything.
Your last set of lines are humorous.
Camping, at least, involves hunting an area of particular mobs for xp and loot. It requires you to pull mobs, manage your health/mana, ry to not pull more than you can handle knowing aggro ranges, and trying not to die. Sure, you may sit to regain health and mana, but you can chat during that time. Any of the stated require interaction and commands by the player.
A cutscene is just sitting and watching a short film scroll along without doing anything else, other than maybe hitting esc to end the cutscene. Now how is that gameplay more so?.
I do agree with the ones that say "REAL MMO" though. It is annoying and just insights flaming.
Nothing at all wrong with liking other MMO's. They all have their place and are made to attract particular players. It's people who completely disregard anothers likes or to comprimise is where it gets irritating.
[mod edit]
I'm pretty specific in my criticism. I don't think everything about early MMORPGs was bad, and they deserve respect for starting a genre I enjoy.
But games are largely measured by how much entertainment they provide relative to the time they demand. And in 1999 when lots of early MMORPGs were coming out you also had all these great gameplay-focused games like System Shock 2, Quake 3, UT, AOE2, and more. For every hour a player put into these games, they delivered a lot of entertainment.
Meanwhile in the MMORPGs, if you put an hour into the game you might see fully half of that time lost to timesinks like travel or recovery.
So I stopped playing each of those early MMORPGs without subscribing, purely on the basis of their sparse gameplay. It wasn't until recently that I made the connection that the rise of the subscription model was the reason for the rise of timesink-heavy games (it's really only ever been MMORPGs, with their time-based business model, which have ever been this timesink-heavy as games.)
I never share my current company, since I enjoy being free to discuss things without worrying about people making the mistake of thinking I speak for the company in some way. However you can find my name in AOE2: Conqueror's xpack, Mechwarrior 4 and xpacks, and Rise of Nations and xpacks (including my alias "Axehilt" which I've used for a very long time.) Sadly I didn't get into the credits for Perfect Dark (N64). More recently I worked on Reckoning Kingdoms of Amalur for the first couple years of its development. Lately I've been working on mobile games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Right, camping involves combat gameplay which is oftentimes quite a lot of decision-making (gameplay) while cutscenes involve no decisions (no gameplay.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I dont think you really were ever involved in the MMO scene....ever
All of what you said is so foreign to me....time sinks were in a few MMOs but in very few instances and were frequented by those that had the time and will....but were in no way experienced by the majority.
The Sub model was always there...and had nothing to do with any time sink. I just dont understand the blather you posted....sorry....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Typically when we (old timers who want some old school MMO features) are discussing what we would want in a game it is some cool dude who has to come in and tell us we are all old farts who don't know what we want, nostalgia, rose-colored glasses, blah blah blah blah blah blah. We ARE talking about game design for a specific audience...US. Just the cool kids can't let us have what we want, that would be asking too much. Maybe instead of flooding our threads with crap they should be playing all of their "great" MMOs that are out?
ESO was never meant to feel that way to you....never said it was intended. Was made in the ES universe is all...but to add MMO elements, would change everything. Most of us knew this. We all wondered why the rest of you could not grasp the concept.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Although I disagree with a lot of things Axehilt has to say a lot of the time, I know what he's saying here. In his defense, he's basically saying that older MMORPG's were heavy in time sinks, not as much for the purpose of community building, which happened through the players making that happen anyways....but more so because the game was subscription based (Monthly fee).
The more time you spent in game, the more money the company made. Longer time sinks, meant more of a chance you'd re-up that sub in order for the player to reach particular goals they wished to meet.
I think they can bring back the virtual world but not the feeling. Like everyone else said the Internet itself removes the mystery that we fell in love with. Stuck? Look up a guide, hell watch a video and have someone do it for you. I dont think grouping should be mandatory because that limits the experience. It should be encouraged.
But I also believe the audience has changed, as I know when I started playing most people at that time enjoyed the challenge and the progress. Where today's generation I don't see as open to it. They seem fine to happily accept lobby-based instant gratification (yet find it odd they continue to complain about it).
They were NOT time sinks...they were what we played. "Time sink" is a modern term. Something that the elite decided to come up with. Back then...we just played. Yes the definition might be the same to you....but it isn't the same.
Meaning...back then, we just played. There was no fancy terms for everything. You people are trying to apply today's jackass terms to a day when we had none of it....
So...musings of an MMO vet...from a REAL one....STOP applying today's terms to the past
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
And subs were not always around.
And subs weren't
Subs WERE around....but time sinks were not....have fun in your world
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
And maybe you dont get that time sink had nothing to do with the old pay by hour. Or pay by month......because there were no time sinks then....none that the real players remember
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
The 1999 games I listed were basically a non-stop series of decisions.
The MMORPGs around the same time (AC, DAOC, AC2, SB, EVE, L2, FF11, etc) involved brief series of simple decisions (because the combat tended to be shallow), repeated for a while, followed by significant downtime (resting) all of which was preceded and followed by time-consuming travel. That's just how the game rules of these games caused the games to play out.
Every gaming forum I visited around that time mentioned MMORPGs' timesinks as a big negative to playing them. (With the clear implication that unlike a game like Civ2 which took a lot of time but involved non-stop gameplay, these games took a lot of time...and offered far fewer decisions than typical games.)
Subscription games have not always existed. Non-subscription games have almost never involved timesinks anywhere near as tedious as the ones found in subscription games. So no, I assure you the rise of timesink-focused games definitely was a money-grab associated with the subscription model. (See also the lead designer of CoH who says, "A Timesink is an artificial method to get you, the player, to play an MMO longer than you normally would. It is hoped that this time investment will translate into extended subscription, but if not handled properly, this can backfire spectacularly.")
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Id say it has something to do with words "rose", "glasses", "nostalgia"
Unfortunately thats the problem, part of "vets" just dont want to accept truth about "old school" games and usually assign properties to certain features that just aint there.
WoW is evolution of EQ, wheter they like it or not, wether they accept ti or not, thats how it is.
You mean sort of like how a tiger is an "evolution" in predators from a Velociraptor?
Both are good at what they do, but the earlier version was clearly better.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Actually no, more of evolution from Model T to Mustang
Exactly. in the 80-90s there were lots of games where you repeatedly done stuff to collect currency/xp to improve. Nobody called it time sinks. In the early 2000's technology moved on, now we had persistent worlds where we quested, done dungeons, and repeated content to generate xp, faction rep, gear. We didn't call them time sinks then either. Now modern games offer very diverse gameplay including repeatable content that players can opt in to. Things move on.
Again, this is about intent. There is one scenario for example where I would describe something as a time-sink and that's where a development team deliberately design content to be a time filler instead of a healthy proportional investment on content for monies received from player. I call out games that release little content over time, and the content they do release is small repeatable dungeons etc rather than broad and deep extensions to the virtual world/gameplay. That's a timesink.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D