Originally posted by feztonio People say they don't like casual but when a game such as WildStar comes out at launch with it's 'HARDCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' total focus nobody likes it and many people bail and they have to casual it up and it's still floundering and not going so hot.
It's not that simple, though.
That's like yelling, "Cheeseburgers are awesome! Why can't someone make a cheeseburger with lettuce, tomato, pickel and ketchup! That's all I want!".
Someone brings you a cheeseburger, and it looks exactly like what you described... only it's under-cooked, the lettuce is wilted, the tomatoes are mush, there's only one tiny pickel, and the roll is going stale.
Now, would you say "well, that proves it! Cheeseburgers aren't that awesome!"
No, it only means that particular cheeseburger was poorly made.
Merely "fitting the description" isn't enough.
In the end, execution is what matters. And it sounds like, however good it sounded on paper, the Wildstar folks made some poor decisions in their execution.
When people call for games that are "more hardcore", they tend to hearken back to how older MMOs handled things - less hand-holding, more options, more world, less themepark. When I look at Wildstar, I can't see anything that reminds me of any of the old-school MMOs I played.
There is no "too casual" - because - casual = accessible.
Oh - your game is "too accessible" - said no one ever.
The issue is entitled playerbase - if you feel that game X is too casual - go play game Y that is NOT too casual, or play the hardcore content in game X.
Most MMOs support all kinds of players from casual to hardcore - play according to YOUR liking and stop worrying how others chose to play.
If making a MMO more accessible means you strip away designs that some players favor, then yes, people are complaining, and it isn't being self entitled to want to play a game with features they enjoy.
Sometimes one size really doesn't fit all, in fact some designs are mutually exclusive which is why we are seeing a plethora of niche games under development again.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes MMOs are too Casual today. Thats why they go free to play is because their content which they spend 5 years to develop last all about 2 months then there is no content for months. This formula is pointless and a waste of time. Look at FFXIV the raids are far from casual and people stay. Why? because they created content that will last. Yes they also created content for casuals however IT IS NOT RAID CONTENT. This allows players to do things like Treasure Hunt, go get gil to buy larger houses and decorate their houses, Run fates, do Ranked hunts. Non of this is dumbing down the content for casuals just to get them into the same content which is what Publishers are doing today because Marketing managers are stupid and think if they put Farmvillie in their MMO they will magically have 100 Million subs. It dont work like that. MMOs are a different genera and need a depth that will keep casual and hardcore a like subscribing to your MMO. If you go the Casual route and trying to get every person possible into your game it will fail.
Best to have a 500K user niche market and spend only 50 to 70 Million Dollars on your MMO than spend $250 Million and no one like the game.
Originally posted by DrunkWolf dont worry its not just MMOs, I dare gamers from todays generation to go beat battletoads.
Holy shit Battletoads! I haven't heard that title mentioned in very long time. I had that game for NES, don't remember if I ever beat it.
If you had beat Battletoads, you would have remembered it. ;-)
Haha, so true!
I remember I always got stuck on like level 11. Would always get there without losing a life, then over and over would lose them all. I went back to the game years later, think ps1 was out by then. Hooked up the old machine (still have it and works even today!), got familiar with it, got to usual spot and after a few tries got passed my nemesis level with 1 life and managed to finish off the next level and the queen after and was like whew!
Ok, but what about the NEW generation ? Surely current teenagers with lots of free time want complex games ? Probably... but because of the OLD generation, lots of casual games are produced. And we all know that human are weak: if you have the choice between easy rewards and a long, hard journey, 99% will choose the easy rewards.
I think that complexity and how hard the game is are distinct.
Take EQ2, for example. When I played it in 2005 it was hard. Movement was slow, beating enemies was tough, there were corpse runs. 10 years forward, you can get around much faster, and it's easier. But on the other hand, in 2005 each race had a power progression, and in 2015 (and before) you now pick what that progression does, and have an AA tree, and other powers you can choose for your class. It's a lot more complex.
I don't know what to make of it. It feels like complexity and difficulty should go together, but they don't. Most games I can think of get more complex (more systems) but easier (progression) with time.
And still; eq2 is always the game I fall back to due to its complexity
I don't think there's a problem with games being friendly for casual players.
The problem is that casual play seems to be equated to making a game easier, with braindead mobs and no challenge whatsoever. Relying only and solely on time invested to get certain rewards.
I really wonder where the heck this came from. Maybe I'm an oddball, but I've played a number of games both casually or more hardcore and I've always preferred a good set of difficulty that made a session feel rewarding in either situation.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Moba's just giving you the Heros,Eve just allowing you to put a check mark in a box,Blizzard's HS is a game that does not contest each play like MTG did,instead you can casually play whatever you like every turn.Blizzard again...In Wow you can simply automate an instance instead of travelling a world like you would expect.The same thing for FFXIV and in NWN same thing,auto warp into the instance as long in zone or maybe even that has changed.Look at H1z1 you don't craft your weapons,you simply find them,every zombie can EASILY be killed.
In reality it is game design that has become super casual leading to casual gaming,the effort is severely lacking from MOST developers.I remember massive complaints over FFXIV suing copy paste land textures,ummm seriously,hello EVERY game is massively copy pasting textures all over the game.How about Space Sims,it is all copy paste from asteroids to space textures to even the other assets.
So expect more casual gaming because it is super cost effective for developers to not put any depth or longevity into systems and just make everything casual.Want a skill in EVE?Easy game creates a spreadsheet with every skill on it with a timer and put a check mark in box,little to no effort by designer or gamer.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Either you completely missed what happened with Wildstar, or my sensor is picking up someone living in a dream world. It has nothing to do with Hardcore being fickle, and everything to do with poor design.
How about a third option? I played Wildstar and got sick of all the bellyaching from the "hardcore" crowd that whined about getting what they said they wanted. They didn't know what to do with the game they demanded so they blamed the game just as you're doing. Wildstar isn't perfect but it's what the "hardcore" crowd demanded.
I agree that it has more to do with actual difficulty than the game design. Everyone always thinks that WoW is casual. The fact is that WoW simply offers something for everyone. It's not like 50% of the WoW community is completing raids at Mythic levels. That's what they're there for! At the same time, they have Raid Finder for the casuals. Now, if WoW amped up their content difficulty and only offered Mythic raids, how well would it do? Probably not good. You've basically locked story content behind a barrier that less than 1% of people are ever going to accomplish. Honestly, I think that everyone WANTS to feel hardcore. There are very, VERY few people who actually are. When you're actually faced with the daunting task of sitting in a raid for 6 hours and making zero progress, that's going to be a turn-off for the vast majority.
On the subject of classes and builds, I didn't like that the article eluded that customization changed as a result of making games more accessible. That's sooooo not the case. Honestly, the Internet had more impact on class builds than how accessible, or casual, a game was. With sites out there like AskMrRobot, or even simply forums, the builds actually being built are not varied, even in games that give you that flexibility. I used to be responsible for maintaining massive spreadsheets with data for my guild "back in the day" and it quite literally occupied an hour of my day (on average) daily. So builds were even pigeon-holed from launch, but it was only something afforded those who were in a guild with someone who did detailed theorycrafting. As these builds became more publicised, as the Internet introduced tools to help you optimize your build, any other class builds became obsolete. 2-3 builds per class role is all that you really needed to support. Anything else is an illusion, it's an illusion of choice, because when it comes down to it, you're going to want an optimized build and you're going to go onto the Internet to figure out how to make that build. If you don't, someone will ultimately call you an idiot and you'll get booted from your group, lol.
So the real question is, how can you create a system that provides freedom of choice, without sacrificing function? If someone has a formula for that, then you win. Congrats.
Wildstar is a very bad example to give to show failure of hardcore raiding. I would have gladly raided hardcore in Wildstar if the combat actually allowed me to heal properly. I could not take the action combat the way it was designed in Wildstar. The way ESO does it is better and I am able to be half decent at it in ESO but was terrible in Wildstar.
So to say hardcore raiding failed due to Wildstar is patently false.
More casual? Definitely. No character investment, push through levels so fast that you don't even remember them. Solo through most of the content, no need to group, no need to engage within a community. No need to craft, no need to raid. *scratches head* Um, why even play?
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
Wildstar is a very bad example to give to show failure of hardcore raiding. I would have gladly raided hardcore in Wildstar if the combat actually allowed me to heal properly. I could not take the action combat the way it was designed in Wildstar. The way ESO does it is better and I am able to be half decent at it in ESO but was terrible in Wildstar.
So to say hardcore raiding failed due to Wildstar is patently false.
I do agree with you on your last note. I don't think that hardcore raiding is dead, or dying, by any means. I think it's alive and well, actually. The truth is that I don't really see any difference compared to raiding in the past, to be honest. I don't really raid "hardcore" now, but do remember that even "back in the day" a very small percentage of guilds completed heroic raids. It's always been that way. Today, I don't think the number is any higher, or lower.
I think it's that accessibility that's making it seem more "casual" than it really is. Fact is that most hardcore players are sitting there whacking away at mobs 2 and 3 levels lower than themselves anyway. It's the "race" and endgame focus and mentality that all content prior to endgame is inconsequential that has made developers open up content to the regular Joe's of the world. Quite simply, people who enjoy hard content aren't going to be happy until endgame anyway.
At first I thought someone necro'd a very old thread but then I saw the post date on the OP and was left scratching my head as to why this question is being asked now.
Well you have options , you can play a "chat room" or a game these days there's not much game play and it's all insta win.
A shame that the current generation has zero challenge , and the height of an achievement is to kill another player. maybe some day soon we will get a few people back in the industry who are capable of designing something playable with a bit of depth.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Originally posted by DetectiveChatIs it 'becoming' too casual or are there just more options for casual players. Those hardcore experiences are still out there.
I agree that the hardcore games exist, but I want a hardcore game with the budget of a casual title. Being a fan of MMOs and looking at the Game List, reading the available information and immediately recognizing that I will not enjoy the games at all, is disheartening. I take refuge in the hardcore games developed by smaller companies with smaller budgets. However, I see all these "crap" games getting pushed out, expecting many of them to fail or only have a small audience. And I think to myself that if just one of these companies decided to go the hardcore route, the game might have been different enough to succeed. Granted, being hardcore alone doesn't make a game fun for me to play. It still has to be interesting and have other merits.
Originally posted by DetectiveChatIs it 'becoming' too casual or are there just more options for casual players. Those hardcore experiences are still out there.
I agree that the hardcore games exist, but I want a hardcore game with the budget of a casual title. Being a fan of MMOs and looking at the Game List, reading the available information and immediately recognizing that I will not enjoy the games at all, is disheartening. I take refuge in the hardcore games developed by smaller companies with smaller budgets. However, I see all these "crap" games getting pushed out, expecting many of them to fail or only have a small audience. And I think to myself that if just one of these companies decided to go the hardcore route, the game might have been different enough to succeed. Granted, being hardcore alone doesn't make a game fun for me to play. It still has to be interesting and have other merits.
We're stuck in a bit of a vicious circle there.
Smaller devs often lack the infrastructure to support an expansive MMO and because of the risk involved, they tend to cater to casual players in an attempt to minimise the likelihood of failure.
Perhaps we need to distinct versions of a game, similar to free-to-play games having premium versions. They would be vastly different products but one would hopefully support the other both financially and by converting new players.
Total pipedream to be honest but I'd like to see it.
Comments
It's not that simple, though.
That's like yelling, "Cheeseburgers are awesome! Why can't someone make a cheeseburger with lettuce, tomato, pickel and ketchup! That's all I want!".
Someone brings you a cheeseburger, and it looks exactly like what you described... only it's under-cooked, the lettuce is wilted, the tomatoes are mush, there's only one tiny pickel, and the roll is going stale.
Now, would you say "well, that proves it! Cheeseburgers aren't that awesome!"
No, it only means that particular cheeseburger was poorly made.
Merely "fitting the description" isn't enough.
In the end, execution is what matters. And it sounds like, however good it sounded on paper, the Wildstar folks made some poor decisions in their execution.
When people call for games that are "more hardcore", they tend to hearken back to how older MMOs handled things - less hand-holding, more options, more world, less themepark. When I look at Wildstar, I can't see anything that reminds me of any of the old-school MMOs I played.
If making a MMO more accessible means you strip away designs that some players favor, then yes, people are complaining, and it isn't being self entitled to want to play a game with features they enjoy.
Sometimes one size really doesn't fit all, in fact some designs are mutually exclusive which is why we are seeing a plethora of niche games under development again.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes MMOs are too Casual today. Thats why they go free to play is because their content which they spend 5 years to develop last all about 2 months then there is no content for months. This formula is pointless and a waste of time. Look at FFXIV the raids are far from casual and people stay. Why? because they created content that will last. Yes they also created content for casuals however IT IS NOT RAID CONTENT. This allows players to do things like Treasure Hunt, go get gil to buy larger houses and decorate their houses, Run fates, do Ranked hunts. Non of this is dumbing down the content for casuals just to get them into the same content which is what Publishers are doing today because Marketing managers are stupid and think if they put Farmvillie in their MMO they will magically have 100 Million subs. It dont work like that. MMOs are a different genera and need a depth that will keep casual and hardcore a like subscribing to your MMO. If you go the Casual route and trying to get every person possible into your game it will fail.
Best to have a 500K user niche market and spend only 50 to 70 Million Dollars on your MMO than spend $250 Million and no one like the game.
Haha, so true!
I remember I always got stuck on like level 11. Would always get there without losing a life, then over and over would lose them all. I went back to the game years later, think ps1 was out by then. Hooked up the old machine (still have it and works even today!), got familiar with it, got to usual spot and after a few tries got passed my nemesis level with 1 life and managed to finish off the next level and the queen after and was like whew!
Good times.
And still; eq2 is always the game I fall back to due to its complexity
I don't think there's a problem with games being friendly for casual players.
The problem is that casual play seems to be equated to making a game easier, with braindead mobs and no challenge whatsoever. Relying only and solely on time invested to get certain rewards.
I really wonder where the heck this came from. Maybe I'm an oddball, but I've played a number of games both casually or more hardcore and I've always preferred a good set of difficulty that made a session feel rewarding in either situation.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Moba's just giving you the Heros,Eve just allowing you to put a check mark in a box,Blizzard's HS is a game that does not contest each play like MTG did,instead you can casually play whatever you like every turn.Blizzard again...In Wow you can simply automate an instance instead of travelling a world like you would expect.The same thing for FFXIV and in NWN same thing,auto warp into the instance as long in zone or maybe even that has changed.Look at H1z1 you don't craft your weapons,you simply find them,every zombie can EASILY be killed.
In reality it is game design that has become super casual leading to casual gaming,the effort is severely lacking from MOST developers.I remember massive complaints over FFXIV suing copy paste land textures,ummm seriously,hello EVERY game is massively copy pasting textures all over the game.How about Space Sims,it is all copy paste from asteroids to space textures to even the other assets.
So expect more casual gaming because it is super cost effective for developers to not put any depth or longevity into systems and just make everything casual.Want a skill in EVE?Easy game creates a spreadsheet with every skill on it with a timer and put a check mark in box,little to no effort by designer or gamer.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I agree that it has more to do with actual difficulty than the game design. Everyone always thinks that WoW is casual. The fact is that WoW simply offers something for everyone. It's not like 50% of the WoW community is completing raids at Mythic levels. That's what they're there for! At the same time, they have Raid Finder for the casuals. Now, if WoW amped up their content difficulty and only offered Mythic raids, how well would it do? Probably not good. You've basically locked story content behind a barrier that less than 1% of people are ever going to accomplish. Honestly, I think that everyone WANTS to feel hardcore. There are very, VERY few people who actually are. When you're actually faced with the daunting task of sitting in a raid for 6 hours and making zero progress, that's going to be a turn-off for the vast majority.
On the subject of classes and builds, I didn't like that the article eluded that customization changed as a result of making games more accessible. That's sooooo not the case. Honestly, the Internet had more impact on class builds than how accessible, or casual, a game was. With sites out there like AskMrRobot, or even simply forums, the builds actually being built are not varied, even in games that give you that flexibility. I used to be responsible for maintaining massive spreadsheets with data for my guild "back in the day" and it quite literally occupied an hour of my day (on average) daily. So builds were even pigeon-holed from launch, but it was only something afforded those who were in a guild with someone who did detailed theorycrafting. As these builds became more publicised, as the Internet introduced tools to help you optimize your build, any other class builds became obsolete. 2-3 builds per class role is all that you really needed to support. Anything else is an illusion, it's an illusion of choice, because when it comes down to it, you're going to want an optimized build and you're going to go onto the Internet to figure out how to make that build. If you don't, someone will ultimately call you an idiot and you'll get booted from your group, lol.
So the real question is, how can you create a system that provides freedom of choice, without sacrificing function? If someone has a formula for that, then you win. Congrats.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Wildstar is a very bad example to give to show failure of hardcore raiding. I would have gladly raided hardcore in Wildstar if the combat actually allowed me to heal properly. I could not take the action combat the way it was designed in Wildstar. The way ESO does it is better and I am able to be half decent at it in ESO but was terrible in Wildstar.
So to say hardcore raiding failed due to Wildstar is patently false.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
I do agree with you on your last note. I don't think that hardcore raiding is dead, or dying, by any means. I think it's alive and well, actually. The truth is that I don't really see any difference compared to raiding in the past, to be honest. I don't really raid "hardcore" now, but do remember that even "back in the day" a very small percentage of guilds completed heroic raids. It's always been that way. Today, I don't think the number is any higher, or lower.
I think it's that accessibility that's making it seem more "casual" than it really is. Fact is that most hardcore players are sitting there whacking away at mobs 2 and 3 levels lower than themselves anyway. It's the "race" and endgame focus and mentality that all content prior to endgame is inconsequential that has made developers open up content to the regular Joe's of the world. Quite simply, people who enjoy hard content aren't going to be happy until endgame anyway.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Well you have options , you can play a "chat room" or a game these days there's not much game play and it's all insta win.
A shame that the current generation has zero challenge , and the height of an achievement is to kill another player. maybe some day soon we will get a few people back in the industry who are capable of designing something playable with a bit of depth.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Got milk?
I agree that the hardcore games exist, but I want a hardcore game with the budget of a casual title. Being a fan of MMOs and looking at the Game List, reading the available information and immediately recognizing that I will not enjoy the games at all, is disheartening. I take refuge in the hardcore games developed by smaller companies with smaller budgets. However, I see all these "crap" games getting pushed out, expecting many of them to fail or only have a small audience. And I think to myself that if just one of these companies decided to go the hardcore route, the game might have been different enough to succeed. Granted, being hardcore alone doesn't make a game fun for me to play. It still has to be interesting and have other merits.
We're stuck in a bit of a vicious circle there.
Smaller devs often lack the infrastructure to support an expansive MMO and because of the risk involved, they tend to cater to casual players in an attempt to minimise the likelihood of failure.
Perhaps we need to distinct versions of a game, similar to free-to-play games having premium versions. They would be vastly different products but one would hopefully support the other both financially and by converting new players.
Total pipedream to be honest but I'd like to see it.
Got milk?