Is ESO F2P? I thought is was B2P, but players can choose to play without a sub or buying DLCs thereafter if they wish.
It's
also a value judgement. Is the money of those who pay worth more than
the time of those who don't pay? Those who don't pay usually live
meager lives compared to those who are able to pay. (And some of those
who pay a little have to beg or borrow it from others. Kids/teenagers
and the chronically unemployed or underemployed.) The free players
probably live with a family member or friend and may or may not own a
car. Certainly won't own a new car. They won't own many new clothes
and they may just be fortunate enough to own or be able to use a
computer capable of playing the game. Most likely not on the highest
settings.
Yes, these people can be
faulted for not making the best decisions in their lives or not doing
their absolute best to change their circumstances, true. But some of
them have mental/emotional issues, are chronically depressed, or are
perhaps recovering addicts or alcoholics. It's also very difficult for
someone to find a job who hasn't worked recently. Many businesses would
rather hire young people or immigrants than an older citizen.
Especially one who has been out of work for too long or who doesn't have
the best job history. Or those with checkered pasts. Such as those
who have a criminal record.
Anyway, why
can't those kinds of people who choose to play F2P games be given an
opportunity to excel? Why must they always be treated like black sheep
regardless of their intelligence, skill, attitude, and/or personality?
Some of them might keep others playing and even motivate others to pay
to play. If they really enjoy the game and feel like the time they
spend playing is worth the effort.
That's right ESO is B2P. But considering their pay system, they might as well make the base game F2P.
Because game companies are not charities. Video games are entertainment and a luxury item. I mean why stop there? Why can't I get front row seats at a sports game? I'll support the team and cheer louder than anyone else.
It's harsh but the truth is, money talks. What small contribution they make by keeping others playing is fairly insignificant compared to a whale especially if all those others aren't paying either.
If you are trying to equate societal issues with video game development, that's where this conversation ends because I don't see video games as a necessity.
In the end, if people don't want to can't support their favorite game with money then they shouldn't play. This is my personal opinion. If anything, I think this kind of behavior is offensive to game developers by devaluing their hard work and sacrifice. This sense of entitlement is probably one of the reasons why we are getting so many crummy F2P games.
It's not a sense of entitlement. Did players ask for these developers to make their games F2P? I don't know. Did they?
No, I don't think so. These companies made the decision to make the games F2P because they believe they can make more money by doing so.
I would much rather pay a subscription, have no cash shop, and have a level playing field. I would feel much better knowing that a player's success and achievement in a game is totally dependent on the intelligence, skill, knowledge, and experience of the player. However, in a social game, the ability to cooperate (play well/get along) with others plays a large role as well. But, anyway, that's what I want. That's what I would like.
But will what you or I want or like in this regard determine what these corporations and companies decide to do in the future?
I don't like F2P games with cash shops. You don't like F2P with cash shops. But are they going to stop being made because you and I don't like them?
EDIT: "If anything, I think this kind of behavior is offensive to game developers by devaluing their hard work and sacrifice." - SpectralHunter
What?The game developers are getting paid. If they weren't the games would shut down.The people who are getting cheated are the players. Free players are invited to a play a game in which they will rarely (if ever) reach the top tiers of the gaming elite no matter how hard they try. Paying players are asked to support everyone else. Moderate spenders, as in those who pay only $15-20 a month (as they would for a subscription) will also not reach the top tiers unless they can play for at least 8 hours a day. Of course, this might depend on when in the course of the game's life a player started. New players are always at a disadvantage in an MMORPG with practically unlimited Vertical progression.Even whales and big spenders are getting cheated. Because the designers of the game are more than likely putting most of their efforts into figuring out new ways to milk money out of players rather than pursuing innovation. Instead of trying to make the best game they can, they're likely trying to make a game that will make the most money in the shortest amount of time possible.
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
It's not a sense of entitlement. Did players ask for these developers to make their games F2P? I don't know. Did they?
No, I don't think so. These companies made the decision to make the games F2P because they believe they can make more money by doing so.
I would much rather pay a subscription, have no cash shop, and have a level playing field. I would feel much better knowing that a player's success and achievement in a game is totally dependent on the intelligence, skill, knowledge, and experience of the player. However, in a social game, the ability to cooperate (play well/get along) with others plays a large role as well. But, anyway, that's what I want. That's what I would like.
But will what you or I want or like in this regard determine what these corporations and companies decide to do in the future?
I don't like F2P games with cash shops. You don't like F2P with cash shops. But are they going to stop being made because you and I don't like them?
Agree with everything.
"These companies made the decision to make the games F2P because they believe they can make more money by doing so".
"I would much rather pay a subscription, have no cash shop, and have a level playing field".
I'm disappointed on several fronts anyway. - Like someone mentioned earlier, the game changed direction of what I expected at least in my own mind. I was expecting everyone on traditional servers much like EQ1 that I missed out on so many years back..... Simple design.
- Strange self absorbed design team that ignores modern templates to build a world quickly SO WE CAN HAVE A GAME.
Having medical issues, I may not last more than 1>3 years best case 5..... I don't think I will be seeing this game anyway.
It's not a sense of entitlement. Did players ask for these developers to make their games F2P? I don't know. Did they?
No, I don't think so. These companies made the decision to make the games F2P because they believe they can make more money by doing so.
I would much rather pay a subscription, have no cash shop, and have a level playing field. I would feel much better knowing that a player's success and achievement in a game is totally dependent on the intelligence, skill, knowledge, and experience of the player. However, in a social game, the ability to cooperate (play well/get along) with others plays a large role as well. But, anyway, that's what I want. That's what I would like.
But will what you or I want or like in this regard determine what these corporations and companies decide to do in the future?
I don't like F2P games with cash shops. You don't like F2P with cash shops. But are they going to stop being made because you and I don't like them?
Agree with everything.
"These companies made the decision to make the games F2P because they believe they can make more money by doing so".
"I would much rather pay a subscription, have no cash shop, and have a level playing field".
I'm disappointed on several fronts anyway. - Like someone mentioned earlier, the game changed direction of what I expected at least in my own mind. I was expecting everyone on traditional servers much like EQ1 that I missed out on so many years back..... Simple design.
- Strange self absorbed design team that ignores modern templates to build a world quickly SO WE CAN HAVE A GAME.
Having medical issues, I may not last more than 1>3 years best case 5..... I don't think I will be seeing this game anyway.
Well, I hope your medical condition improves. Not that playing a game is the most important thing in life. But hopefully you'll still be around when Pantheon is released. And hopefully Pantheon will be released.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
To the last poster,nope it isn't going to stop because there are a lot of very new young gamer's that this is all they know and support it foolishly.
I happened to surf around many streamers while that Fortnite event was on and it was insane.The young kids all of them were buying costumes from the cash shop to dress up like a gangster,like the rapper.I would go so far as to say these modern gamer's are addicted to spending money and spending it by the truck loads.
Just Google how much money Fortnite and GTA online have made from cash shop use,you could feed a country.
The business side of gaming knows what they are doing and that it is truly unfair,so they always try to spin it in a positive manner....oh it's only cosmetics.NO what it is are these scummy developers are selling individual items in their game where it adds up to way way more than ANY game on this planet is worth.
If we used say Wow as an example,it would be like charging you $2 every time you do a crafting recipe.Hey you don't NEED to do that craft,so it is only a cosmetic part of the game,no pay to win so it's all good that we charge you $2 a craft.Imagine if Blizzard suddenly removed every single gear/weapon from your inventory and said,you want it back ,here buy each piece from us for $5.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Who wants to play a game where there are only 6,000 accounts because the fee is $25? With 6,000 accounts there MIGHT be 1,000 people on at a time IF that many. How is anyone supposed to get anything done with so few players?
Perhaps more are willing to pay a premium price for what they feel to be a premium play experience than you expect.
If the price is indeed set about the $15 standard, time will tell. If they are successful, expect other subscription games to follow suit in short order.
Also, these are discussion boards, not argument boards or high school debate boards. If I want elves to have long ears, I don't have to prove it. I can just say that's my preference.
Getting in everyone's grill about everything, demanding proof and claiming a lack of logic is annoying behavior, and regularly annoying other people can draw a ban.
I was discussing, quite civil to be honest. Then I was accused, claimed I deserved the ban, claimed I didn't know raiding, and then accused of being angry to imply I was irrational.
Is that not an attack?
If you accuse me of those things, yes.. you do need to prove it, especially when you claim personal experience to make such an accusation (ie his claim that I was uncivil on the pantheon forums, etc..)
Or are you going to say it is perfectly acceptable to make such an accusation and provide no evidence of it?
Edit:
Oh and as for forum policies...
disregard that, it was from the wrong site. To be honest I am having a bit of difficulty even finding the terms on this site.
Yep, can't find anything on a ToS for this site, which is odd.. Either I am blind (a possibility) or they don't have one (or it is not very easy to find).
I don't think Pantheon is a niche game anymore. They have catered far too much to mainstream principals and focus.
how so?
Many subtle ways, and some obvious. Various design decisions (I know not entirely set in stone). Travel is one that is showing obvious signs of "compromise" with mainstream. Brad's caravan system defies the entire concept of making travel mean something and the devs discussions on such have become... rather.. political in the stances while in the beginning, more direct stances on features were taken with these things.
I think the last decision I saw was that there would be no naked corpse runs, just exp loss (again, another decision that misses the point of dangerous travel and risk vs reward). There are numerous things over the years that they have become more open to (naturally due to the large number of mainstream gamers who started subbing due to graphics being focused on).
There are numerous tones that have changed. People used to use terms like old school, or EQ spiritual successor, and these were originally accepted, but later were discouraged with comments of "we are making our own game, not another EQ/Vanguard" or "Old school is a term we do not wish to be associated, we are making our own game, etc..."
Combine that with the forums being filled now with mainstream players who keep asking for mainstream designs, even though it was even pushed that a lot of these designs were settled a while ago. Kilsin used to shut down discussions on those topics and now... he actually asks people if they want features that they had once already decided on.
Raiding is another. Initially, it was promoted that EQ was about the journey, that "raiding" while it would exist in Pantheon, it was not the main focus, that the group game was more the focus. They even went as far to speak against "end game" as a design focus, yet then I hear them talk about more raids, and end game as a component of the game.
Lastly, the F2P (play levels 1-10 free) is absolutely attending to mainstream. It is a bad decision on so many levels as they will not be able to afford the resources to cater to such without a store and the implementation of it with other players will only feed plat selling, spammers, essentially ruining game play for all paying players up to level 10.
Anyway that is a small subset of things, but the idea that the game is "niche", not so much. Count on it being very mainstream.
lol nothing riles the feathers more than the f2p hatred on these boards.... how about this? Take a f2p game, but tell the company that you demand to pay $15 a month and get nothing in return because then you feel their game will be better and the problem is solved right?
That is about as stupid as telling someone if they want a more challenging game, to forego wearing gear.
How about if you want a F2P game, you can select from the hundreds of games out there that serve that EXACT need? Or are you so bored with all those "quality" F2P games that one game out of hundreds not being free to you is upsetting?
You see, your position is that of someone without any money complaining about what people with money do. There is an old adage, "Beggars can't be choosers", if you want free, you are going to have to settle with the F2P games out there, people with money would like a different game. I understand though, envy is a hard thing.
lol nothing riles the feathers more than the f2p hatred on these boards.... how about this? Take a f2p game, but tell the company that you demand to pay $15 a month and get nothing in return because then you feel their game will be better and the problem is solved right?
Actually most people would expect to get a game that is not built around trying to milk all the money they can out of you in a cash shop.
They also would expect no in game cash shop at all and all the content of the game for the monthly fee.
A game that is designed from the start as a FTP game would need an extensive redesign to go the monthly fee route.
A monthly fee without a cash shop (or at least w/out one in which you can't pay for in-game advantages) is the best model.
But there are ways to make a F2P game without making it a P2W super-ultra greedy cash grab.
If there is, I don't see it.
Keep in mind, that anything you sell in the store that allows a player to circumvent game play, to achieve something they would have to otherwise earn in the game, IS basically "Pay to Win".
Exp potions? That is paying real money to speed up your leveling and in the game, leveling speed is something that is learned, sought after, etc.. it is why people group and search out the best "exp" areas in the game. It is how skilled players who learn tricks to become more efficient excel in gaining exp. If someone can buy that in the store? They cheated that requirement in play.
Even cosmetics are still a means of bypassing game play. Before cash shops, players had to seek out the gear that looked certain ways and it was considered prestigious to gain various types of looks in the game, which... took lots of camping, skill to be able to do the content, and luck in the spawns.
So how do you have F2P and not allow that circumvention of game play? Honestly, I don't see how.
I think owning up to the reality of the situation is needed. Some people don't see anything wrong with those various cheats and advantages using cash. I had some people throw some tantrums when I explained how trading Krono for plat in EQ was Pay To Win. I get it, people like to cheat things, it is understandable, but... some people do not.. and so a sub model serves best in those situations.
While I dislike F2P and P2W models, I respect that some people like that. I think though, there should be options for those who do not want that.
I don't see why there can't be servers where they are Sub based and NO stores, features, etc.. are available as such. Likewise, there should be servers that allow people to do all the P2W they like.
Problem is, the most resistance I have gotten from this suggestion is from those who want P2W and F2P? Now why is that I wonder?
My username is the same here as on the forums w/o the _EQ, so feel free to check it out - I’ve followed Pantheon since pre-kickstarter.
Anyway.. to address a few points:
The free trial 1-10 was always in Pantheon, that hasn’t changed. I was one (still am) that thinks its a bad idea - players need to be severely restricted if it stands, and then, whats the point.
Also, the “niche” moniker was moved away from a long time ago - I argued against that as well, but the removal of it - Brad’s words at the time was to not pigeonhole their marketing efforts versus moving away from the tenets. Whether they change complete design decisions - I’ll wait till testing to really critique that.
Again, the caravan system was always thrown out there as a possibility - the problem with nothing really set in stone is people read one quote that they like and take it as gospel - similar to this system, Joppa has been on record saying that if a system plays out terrible - it will be scrapped (like in my view - the progeny system). My biggest issue with this though, and it would be more in line with your thoughts is they just need to release what they system details are now and adjust in testing if need be versus leaving the window open.
As for the forum discussions with Kilsin, it’s as much to generate discussion as anything to add some activity to an otherwise dead official forum at this point. I know I for one have mainly stopped posting due to what I said in another thread - ideas have been hashed out thousands of times - there’s no point. Are there more mainstream posters, probably, but its more likely that the hardcore followers got burned out of posting after 5+ years and will return once testing arrives.
And as far as corpse runs go, I have not see anything yet that says naked runs will be removed; however, that is actually more punitive than Brad originally discussed - he said the death penalty would be between EQ - VG (which, you could argue w/o corpse rot naked corpse runs are but he said numerous times that you’d respawn with gear like VG and think about a system similar to the tombstone one).
Also, if you listen to Joppa (who I think holds the most design influence - I’m no insider, but just from following the project) he more than anyone is most fond of the EQ challenge which gives me hope.
And, raiding will always be in the discussion for any game, and you can’t have no vertical progression, but Pantheon more than most still talks about horizontal progression. In a level based system, there’s always going to be an end-game.
So, I still think Pantheon will have the challenge, but like I’ve said a lot throughout the years, it will be somewhere in the middle between EQ to VG, most likely closer to VG which is still better than 100% of the current games.
Last, I don’t argue that feature creep may be a real thing and they’re trying to do too much to appeal to all by presenting “new” ideas; however, I’d wait till beta testing before I’d claim that Pantheon is completely mainstream and write if off.
My username is the same here as on the forums w/o the _EQ, so feel free to check it out - I’ve followed Pantheon since pre-kickstarter. -------------------------------
I know you, and I know you here on MMORPG.com in the past as well. While I may disagree with you on certain discussions, I am not dismissive of your points, I don't think we had too much in the way of "conflict" on the Pantheon forums.
Anyway.. to address a few points:
The free trial 1-10 was always in Pantheon, that hasn’t changed. I was one (still am) that thinks its a bad idea - players need to be severely restricted if it stands, and then, whats the point. -----------------------------------------
I know they mused of it initially, but as more discussion was brought on, the dangers, the issues, etc... they continued to hold to it, knowing it was a losing bet, a serving of "fad" of the day rather than a logical means to solution. I was adamant about this with Brad and VR, stating that such actions were not reasonable on a monetary means or a game play means. That is, allowing millions of accounts to be serviced without capital induction and that of the negative aspects of allowing such into the game from levels 1-10 to which brought upon negative experiences for paying players, as well as the numerous results of plat sellers, bots, F2P hacks, etc... It was a bad choice, period. The fact that they continue this approach only tells me they are selling out. To be blunt, only someone devoid of all intellect or actual knowledge of the industry would see this as a viable solution... UNLESS this was the plan, and F2P was always the intention.
Also, the “niche” moniker was moved away from a long time ago - I argued against that as well, but the removal of it - Brad’s words at the time was to not pigeonhole their marketing efforts versus moving away from the tenets. Whether they change complete design decisions - I’ll wait till testing to really critique that. ------------------------------------
This is the subtle means I was talking about. They moved away, because the "money" was telling them that they had to be political, to promote a means to capture all gamers, which was their intent on this change. This isn't the first double talk I have seen with companies. Whether the devs agreed, or Brad, or what have you, this is the means to which "politics" drive the progression and this "sign" I have seen over and over for two decades of game development. I agree, time will tell, testing is important, but I don't put faith in them. Nobody should, they should beg, borrow and plead to gain support. The days of "It is done when it is done, you will shut up and respect our authority" are gone. They need to put up or shut up. This isn't the day in gaming development for them to take a hard line, they do not have the reputation to do so.
Again, the caravan system was always thrown out there as a possibility - the problem with nothing really set in stone is people read one quote that they like and take it as gospel - similar to this system, Joppa has been on record saying that if a system plays out terrible - it will be scrapped (like in my view - the progeny system). My biggest issue with this though, and it would be more in line with your thoughts is they just need to release what they system details are now and adjust in testing if need be versus leaving the window open.
Yes, I remember Brad bringing it up, I even remember rumors of other VR members taking objection to it. That said, it should have died, it did not, it was fostered, continued to be promoted, and discussed. It is a massive cheat and defies all the aspects of hardship in travel. To be honest, the entire thing felt like a pandering to mainstream. I remember arguing against it, pointing out the hypocrisy of the implementation (ie allowing groups to subvert travel to new locations because of people complaining about "lack of time to play", it was a political pandering, urinating on the very concept of the original experience in EQ and a direct attempt to implement modern gaming into the game).
----------------------------------------- As for the forum discussions with Kilsin, it’s as much to generate discussion as anything to add some activity to an otherwise dead official forum at this point. I know I for one have mainly stopped posting due to what I said in another thread - ideas have been hashed out thousands of times - there’s no point. Are there more mainstream posters, probably, but its more likely that the hardcore followers got burned out of posting after 5+ years and will return once testing arrives.
So, you think it healthy to drive new discussion by bringing up concepts of development that are counter to the games focus? Think about that a sec. You have a forum filled with mainstream subs, all chiming off about the next game they think it should be.... we had arguments for FFXI, for WoW, for numerous mainstream games or concepts that were counter to the EQ experience, yet... Kilsin thought it was a good idea to bring up old arguments (which were claimed to be solved, and even shut down by Kilsin himself previously due to the position that they had already been.... SETTLED)?
For what reason? To falsely entice people? Or.. was it merely a typical attempt by a company to "test the waters" to drive development to the highest buyer? There is NO logical reason for the change in behavior by Kilsin and VR. Either they are idiots, or they are adjusting their development focus and marketing focus. This is the subtle elements of observations I have been talking about. It does not make sense.
---------------------------------------- And as far as corpse runs go, I have not see anything yet that says naked runs will be removed; however, that is actually more punitive than Brad originally discussed - he said the death penalty would be between EQ - VG (which, you could argue w/o corpse rot naked corpse runs are but he said numerous times that you’d respawn with gear like VG and think about a system similar to the tombstone one).
Yes, he did say that, but there were numerous arguments brought up about the problems of "exp penalties" and how they mean nothing in play. This is evident in EQ, and numerous games today. EXP penalties are worthless, meaningless, they do not detour or punish. I remember Brad discussing this, I remember myself arguing on this subject. Without loss of gear, there is no real fear of an encounter. Loss of EXP is meaningless alone, it was so in EQ. As a monk, I lost numerous LEVELS in EQ, and it was not a big deal because... the time and effort to go grab my corpse was pointless when obtained my gear. I could always fast grind exp with a group. Their trepidation with this was not "game play" focused, but the fear of offending mainstream players who did not want to have consequence, which completely invalidates their "Risk vs Reward" claims.
---------------------------------------------- Also, if you listen to Joppa (who I think holds the most design influence - I’m no insider, but just from following the project) he more than anyone is most fond of the EQ challenge which gives me hope.
Yes, I know Joppa has a lot on influence, and yes... I have seen him even counter Brad on discussions to which Brad got a little too.. Mainstream (honestly I thought Joppa was a lot more Old School than Brad, but I also realize Brad was... nervous, or maybe cautious about taking the hardliners he used to take in the early days, I remember Brad on the forums in release EQ telling the players "Tough, this was Verants Vision, deal with it" Paraphrasing there)
---------------------- And, raiding will always be in the discussion for any game, and you can’t have no vertical progression, but Pantheon more than most still talks about horizontal progression. In a level based system, there’s always going to be an end-game.
Yes, but... I remember a SPECIFIC intent to that of the "Journey" which was a main focus. I remember Brad and Devs talking about how the "Journey" was the goal, that group based play was the intent, not large raids. They said raids would be present, but not the drive, that the concept of "THE END GAME" was not a part of their game, which is why leveling would be extremely slow, more focus on the development, the journey and coupled with release schedules that would manage that.
In the more recent Dev discussions, I have seen more focus on "END GAME", Raids, etc... when that was never a focus before.
---------------------------- So, I still think Pantheon will have the challenge, but like I’ve said a lot throughout the years, it will be somewhere in the middle between EQ to VG, most likely closer to VG which is still better than 100% of the current games.
------------------------------------
I am much more cynical than you. I know people, have worked in many areas in both small and large formats, in many disciplines. The one main constant is business focus, and it rules on everything. Over then years, idealism has taken a backseat to such and as we can see from numerous failed KS projects who have lied, misrepresented, continued on with false hopes and failed, etc.... or to deliver a lie, well... I don't share your hope or enthusiasm. Pantheon has been working on its project for 6 years and is still in pre-Alpha without any solid info on release, or direct info on solid testing phases.
In my opinion, they are not showing well in their position. In fact, based on their lack of organization, proper scheduling and release process, I would call them somewhat... on the verge of fraudulent. That does not mean they will not release a product, there are many companies who have acted similarly and eventually released (to avoid legalities) and the result was obviously half finished mismanaged garbage. If VR proves me wrong, I will be surprised, but make no mistake, at this level of result, they will not achieve a release by holding to principals that serve their original proclamations.
Last, I don’t argue that feature creep may be a real thing and they’re trying to do too much to appeal to all by presenting “new” ideas; however, I’d wait till beta testing before I’d claim that Pantheon is completely mainstream and write if off.
They spent WAY too much time on graphics and meaningless features that only appeal to mainstream. I am not inclined to believe they have anything to provide that will be of worth. Their quest system is nothing more than "click and follow the bouncing ball" type of design (they missed why text input into a quest was important) and their "amazing" perception system is nothing more than a "if you have the skill, a quest question mark pops up".
Personally, I don't think VR understands the first thing about why gaming is what it is, why people chase carrots, and what it means to explore and "solve" in such a game.
Am I hard on them? Sure... but only because I love games, and these days, I find very few games, but I find a lot of random entertainment activities.
"The free trial 1-10 was always in Pantheon, that hasn’t changed. I was
one (still am) that thinks its a bad idea - players need to be severely
restricted if it stands, and then, whats the point."
THere is good and bad to a free trial....It usually opens up teh game to alot more players...More people are willing to try it if it's free to start.....but you also get the gold sellers and other undesirables that can make the game less desirable.
"The free trial 1-10 was always in Pantheon, that hasn’t changed. I was
one (still am) that thinks its a bad idea - players need to be severely
restricted if it stands, and then, whats the point."
THere is good and bad to a free trial....It usually opens up teh game to alot more players...More people are willing to try it if it's free to start.....but you also get the gold sellers and other undesirables that can make the game less desirable.
When they first mentioned this, I was hesitant, but thought they would implement in a way that would not disrupt the paying customers (ie separate servers).
That remains to be seen though. I know for myself, if I am forced to play with F2P players, I won't bother with the game at all, even if it is for the first 10 levels.
Way I feel about it is that why should I have to give up the quality of my 1-10 level experience because they are trying to market to a crowd who won't pay for the game anyway? Then I have to deal with the plat sellers, the a-holes, the cheats, spammers, etc.. poop sock campers, bots, etc... and they have nothing to lose, the account is free!
It is already bad enough with all the cheats on the EQ TLP severs, FTP will only ensure the game is a gimmick. Apparently, the experts at VR think they have it all figured it out, but my years of networking, security, programming knowledge be damned, they are experts and I am sure the game will be perfectly as they claim... I mean... every other company has been right? Correct? /boggle
"The free trial 1-10 was always in Pantheon, that hasn’t changed. I was
one (still am) that thinks its a bad idea - players need to be severely
restricted if it stands, and then, whats the point."
THere is good and bad to a free trial....It usually opens up teh game to alot more players...More people are willing to try it if it's free to start.....but you also get the gold sellers and other undesirables that can make the game less desirable.
When they first mentioned this, I was hesitant, but thought they would implement in a way that would not disrupt the paying customers (ie separate servers).
That remains to be seen though. I know for myself, if I am forced to play with F2P players, I won't bother with the game at all, even if it is for the first 10 levels.
Way I feel about it is that why should I have to give up the quality of my 1-10 level experience because they are trying to market to a crowd who won't pay for the game anyway? Then I have to deal with the plat sellers, the a-holes, the cheats, spammers, etc.. poop sock campers, bots, etc... and they have nothing to lose, the account is free!
It is already bad enough with all the cheats on the EQ TLP severs, FTP will only ensure the game is a gimmick. Apparently, the experts at VR think they have it all figured it out, but my years of networking, security, programming knowledge be damned, they are experts and I am sure the game will be perfectly as they claim... I mean... every other company has been right? Correct? /boggle
Or they could have a "trial island" for people who want to try the game's systems.
Doesn't have to be part of the mainland.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Agreed Theocritus. The positive would be more exposure, but at what cost?
And @Tanist - I've always agreed with more of your postings than not, so we really never had any conflict that I can recall - I only listed my username to give more clout to me following the entire development cycle. It's been so long since I've followed it now, I don't even remember who I've really discussed anything with so I didn't recall having discussions here. I don't disagree with you either on the CM questions - I wouldn't raise them, and I don't argue that it's a good idea to do so - just giving a reason why.
Anyway, as far as me being more of an optimist/less cynical - I'm really not - back in 2014, I thought Pantheon had <1% chance to release. Now, I'd say I'd bet on a 50/50 shot. And, any crowdfunded game is a huge risk, so I banked on there being a huge chance of money loss when I first supported the Kickstarter in 2014 and even moreso after I re-pledged on the official forums after the failed Kickstarter - I just wanted to put my money where my mouth was and support a game that had most the tenets that I wanted. However, even during the Kickstarter and after, I thought the best case scenario would be that Pantheon would be a hybrid of EQ/VG with having more of a VG class design with EQ Resource Management/Downtime and death penalties regardless of what was being said (I've followed enough development cycles to know some changes are bound to occur). I think if released, there will be at least one RP server that will be closer to what you and I would want.
But, to get this discussion back on topic, one change that has happened since the failed Kickstarter that has been concrete is the cash shop that was initially on the official website was removed - had a la carte in-game advantage items: the sprinter's boots, tunic, ring, etc. (and included with pledge packages) due to intense negative feedback (I was one). After removal, they said they were only going to go with the sub model, and possibly a real life merchandise store in the future.
TLDR: I'm not surprised to see some tenets lean more to the mainstream, VG was also, and I always thought it would be an EQ/VG hybrid more than an EQ spiritual successor.
"The free trial 1-10 was always in Pantheon, that hasn’t changed. I was
one (still am) that thinks its a bad idea - players need to be severely
restricted if it stands, and then, whats the point."
THere is good and bad to a free trial....It usually opens up teh game to alot more players...More people are willing to try it if it's free to start.....but you also get the gold sellers and other undesirables that can make the game less desirable.
When they first mentioned this, I was hesitant, but thought they would implement in a way that would not disrupt the paying customers (ie separate servers).
That remains to be seen though. I know for myself, if I am forced to play with F2P players, I won't bother with the game at all, even if it is for the first 10 levels.
Way I feel about it is that why should I have to give up the quality of my 1-10 level experience because they are trying to market to a crowd who won't pay for the game anyway? Then I have to deal with the plat sellers, the a-holes, the cheats, spammers, etc.. poop sock campers, bots, etc... and they have nothing to lose, the account is free!
It is already bad enough with all the cheats on the EQ TLP severs, FTP will only ensure the game is a gimmick. Apparently, the experts at VR think they have it all figured it out, but my years of networking, security, programming knowledge be damned, they are experts and I am sure the game will be perfectly as they claim... I mean... every other company has been right? Correct? /boggle
Or they could have a "trial island" for people who want to try the game's systems.
Doesn't have to be part of the mainland.
As long as you allow an "entry point", it will have an effect on the paying players.
Even if you did the EQ2 thing, you are still forcing paying players to play with the FTP players, making the 1-10 game a tolerance of them and all the problems that come with F2P servers.
As I said, the only way I will accept playing Pantheon is if they have a NON-F2P server from the start I can choose, No transfers, no sub ins, no transition to, NONE, as in ZERO F2P players allowed on the server, only sub players from the start.
They don't do that, I won't play. Been there, done that... I know how the game ends up.
I think if released, there will be at least one RP server that will be closer to what you and I would want.
I would hope, but I am not optimistic. I mean, sure... if we could have a naked corpse run server, no fast travel except through limited class abilities and locations, very slow exp game, limited run speed only to specific classes (no mounts), and my personal desire... no 3rd person cameras or the like, well... I would be more inclined to be interested, but I have a feeling those RP servers will be more akin to the "old school" flavor of the TLP servers of EQ, which is to say a mainstream interpretation of "old school".
TLDR: I'm not surprised to see some tenets lean more to the mainstream, VG was also, and I always thought it would be an EQ/VG hybrid more than an EQ spiritual successor.
VG did some things well with its design (Crafting, Diplomacy system, and numerous other sub elements of play), but their mainstream designs were not something I favored (fast travel, easy mode death, class homogenization, etc...). I accepted VG as an influence to the areas that improved EQ, but was against those that supported mainstream.
Here's some of my thoughts. Let me know if you agree/disagree or if you think I'm right or wrong.
P2W CASH SHOPS - F2P games should be "Pay to progress faster/more
quickly" rather than P2W or "Pay to succeed in less than 10 years".
People that work already pay. Why? Because they have less time to
invest in playing. Plus they often have families that require at least
some of their free time in order to maintain (w/out getting divorced or
w/e). Some people who play online games even do other things besides
play games in their free time. Regardless of whether they work or not.
Only independently wealthy people can usually afford to pay and play
for 8-18 hours a day.
Free players pay by
investing more time and energy into a game than paying players do. They
also perform a service by helping to provide content for those that do
pay. In many MMORPGs, paying players might often have trouble finding
players to group with if it weren't for free players. Games with PVP
might find it hard to get enough people to play a match if it weren't
for free players. Only the most popular MMORPGs with the highest
populations don't have these problems. Or usually don't have these
problems.
However, I found that queuing for
dungeons/multi-player content in FFXIV could sometimes involve long
waiting periods. Especially for DPS roles.
The
question is, do developers want people to play their games or not? If
they want high populations, they need the free players. Do they want to
encourage the free players to keep playing, or do they want the free
players to move on to any other of the numerous F2P games available?
Also,
people that do pay get sick and tired of aggressive marketing practices
and designs that are clearly put in place for no other reason than to
demand that they pay or demand that they pay more. Players aren't
stupid. Well, at least not all players are stupid.
Games
do need to make money. This is true. However, there's a difference
between good business practices and designs that will encourage people
to pay in order to support one's product/company and bad business
practices and designs that will encourage people to spend their money
elsewhere.
Yeah I can from what you posted that you have for the most part only played FTP games or games that were converted to that model.
Yeap the pay to progress faster is part of the Ftp game, they add grind much beyond what existed in PTP games so that people would go to the store and pay to level at a normal rate.
FTP games are stores with a sort of game added on to get people to spend money in the store.
Maybe Free players add more to a ftp game than people that play the same game and use the shop? I like to see the proof of that though.
I always though that the FTP players jump from game to game anyway.
Yeah I am sure all those FTP games love free loaders using resources and costing them money and not spending a dime. That is probably why most of them are such poor lame games.
None of this has anything to do with a pay to play game as its an actually game and not an glorified online store.
If Pantheon is not pay to play then I not be playing it.
EDIT: "If anything, I think this kind of behavior is offensive to game developers by devaluing their hard work and sacrifice." - SpectralHunter
What?The game developers are getting paid. If they weren't the games would shut down.The people who are getting cheated are the players. Free players are invited to a play a game in which they will rarely (if ever) reach the top tiers of the gaming elite no matter how hard they try. Paying players are asked to support everyone else. Moderate spenders, as in those who pay only $15-20 a month (as they would for a subscription) will also not reach the top tiers unless they can play for at least 8 hours a day. Of course, this might depend on when in the course of the game's life a player started. New players are always at a disadvantage in an MMORPG with practically unlimited Vertical progression.Even whales and big spenders are getting cheated. Because the designers of the game are more than likely putting most of their efforts into figuring out new ways to milk money out of players rather than pursuing innovation. Instead of trying to make the best game they can, they're likely trying to make a game that will make the most money in the shortest amount of time possible.
I don't think I was clear with my explanation so I'll try again.
I am saying there are a lot of cheap F2P players who complain about whales but they themselves refuse to support the game they play with real money. That's devaluing the developer's time and energy. Developers certainly are not getting paid by the freeloaders.
"Hey work harder to make my game better for me even though I won't pay you a dime."
All I am saying is if you find value in a game, pay up. If not you are taking advantage of a company's hard work.
Now, a developer could make the game better and easier for the non-payers but that goes against the philosophy of F2P. They have to make hurdles so it encourages and entices players to spend money.
The whole system puts milking money from customers first, nevermind quality game play. That's the problem. That's the core design of F2P which is why I dislike it.
Here's some of my thoughts. Let me know if you agree/disagree or if you think I'm right or wrong.
P2W CASH SHOPS - F2P games should be "Pay to progress faster/more
quickly" rather than P2W or "Pay to succeed in less than 10 years".
People that work already pay. Why? Because they have less time to
invest in playing. Plus they often have families that require at least
some of their free time in order to maintain (w/out getting divorced or
w/e). Some people who play online games even do other things besides
play games in their free time. Regardless of whether they work or not.
Only independently wealthy people can usually afford to pay and play
for 8-18 hours a day.
Free players pay by
investing more time and energy into a game than paying players do. They
also perform a service by helping to provide content for those that do
pay. In many MMORPGs, paying players might often have trouble finding
players to group with if it weren't for free players. Games with PVP
might find it hard to get enough people to play a match if it weren't
for free players. Only the most popular MMORPGs with the highest
populations don't have these problems. Or usually don't have these
problems.
However, I found that queuing for
dungeons/multi-player content in FFXIV could sometimes involve long
waiting periods. Especially for DPS roles.
The
question is, do developers want people to play their games or not? If
they want high populations, they need the free players. Do they want to
encourage the free players to keep playing, or do they want the free
players to move on to any other of the numerous F2P games available?
Also,
people that do pay get sick and tired of aggressive marketing practices
and designs that are clearly put in place for no other reason than to
demand that they pay or demand that they pay more. Players aren't
stupid. Well, at least not all players are stupid.
Games
do need to make money. This is true. However, there's a difference
between good business practices and designs that will encourage people
to pay in order to support one's product/company and bad business
practices and designs that will encourage people to spend their money
elsewhere.
Yeah I can from what you posted that you have for the most part only played FTP games or games that were converted to that model.
Yeap the pay to progress faster is part of the Ftp game, they add grind much beyond what existed in PTP games so that people would go to the store and pay to level at a normal rate.
FTP games are stores with a sort of game added on to get people to spend money in the store.
Maybe Free players add more to a ftp game than people that play the same game and use the shop? I like to see the proof of that though.
I always though that the FTP players jump from game to game anyway.
Yeah I am sure all those FTP games love free loaders using resources and costing them money and not spending a dime. That is probably why most of them are such poor lame games.
None of this has anything to do with a pay to play game as its an actually game and not an glorified online store.
If Pantheon is not pay to play then I not be playing it.
Thanks for judging me.
Let's see, I paid for a sub to play WoW. Didn't keep playing because I found it to be boring in 2010-2011. Even though they were gonna let me level to 70 for free. (Is that the Burning Crusade Expansion.)
I paid for a sub while playing EQ2 during 2014.
I paid some money here and there while playing Neverwinter.
I paid money so I could keep playing BDO longer than a week. But then quit playing after getting to lvl 56 with my Dark Knight.
If a game seems worth it to me at the time, then I don't have a problem paying.
However, you are correct. Most F2P games are not worth it.
EDIT: I also paid to play WoW for a bit back in 2015. Only managed to suffer through it up until lvl 50 that time.
Also threw $10 into the gaping black hole that was known as Runes of Magic's super-ultra greedy Cash Shop back in 2008. Then they stopped letting you buy stuff with in-game currency from the Gaping Black Hole. That was pretty much the last straw for me. Had made it to level cap, but then they added an Expansion and like 5 more levels I think. Tried to get through it, but I was suffering way too much lag on my inadequate computer (which was all I had the time).
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
EDIT: "If anything, I think this kind of behavior is offensive to game developers by devaluing their hard work and sacrifice." - SpectralHunter
What?The game developers are getting paid. If they weren't the games would shut down.The people who are getting cheated are the players. Free players are invited to a play a game in which they will rarely (if ever) reach the top tiers of the gaming elite no matter how hard they try. Paying players are asked to support everyone else. Moderate spenders, as in those who pay only $15-20 a month (as they would for a subscription) will also not reach the top tiers unless they can play for at least 8 hours a day. Of course, this might depend on when in the course of the game's life a player started. New players are always at a disadvantage in an MMORPG with practically unlimited Vertical progression.Even whales and big spenders are getting cheated. Because the designers of the game are more than likely putting most of their efforts into figuring out new ways to milk money out of players rather than pursuing innovation. Instead of trying to make the best game they can, they're likely trying to make a game that will make the most money in the shortest amount of time possible.
I don't think I was clear with my explanation so I'll try again.
I am saying there are a lot of cheap F2P players who complain about whales but they themselves refuse to support the game they play with real money. That's devaluing the developer's time and energy. Developers certainly are not getting paid by the freeloaders.
"Hey work harder to make my game better for me even though I won't pay you a dime."
All I am saying is if you find value in a game, pay up. If not you are taking advantage of a company's hard work.
Now, a developer could make the game better and easier for the non-payers but that goes against the philosophy of F2P. They have to make hurdles so it encourages and entices players to spend money.
The whole system puts milking money from customers first, nevermind quality game play. That's the problem. That's the core design of F2P which is why I dislike it.
I have no problem paying some money for a F2P game that I enjoy. I did while I played Neverwinter. Until the developers became obsessed with making the game worse and worse over time. Then I quit playing. However, most F2P/P2W games are not worth a dime of anyone's money.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Here's some of my thoughts. Let me know if you agree/disagree or if you think I'm right or wrong.
P2W CASH SHOPS - F2P games should be "Pay to progress faster/more
quickly" rather than P2W or "Pay to succeed in less than 10 years".
People that work already pay. Why? Because they have less time to
invest in playing. Plus they often have families that require at least
some of their free time in order to maintain (w/out getting divorced or
w/e). Some people who play online games even do other things besides
play games in their free time. Regardless of whether they work or not.
Only independently wealthy people can usually afford to pay and play
for 8-18 hours a day.
Free players pay by
investing more time and energy into a game than paying players do. They
also perform a service by helping to provide content for those that do
pay. In many MMORPGs, paying players might often have trouble finding
players to group with if it weren't for free players. Games with PVP
might find it hard to get enough people to play a match if it weren't
for free players. Only the most popular MMORPGs with the highest
populations don't have these problems. Or usually don't have these
problems.
However, I found that queuing for
dungeons/multi-player content in FFXIV could sometimes involve long
waiting periods. Especially for DPS roles.
The
question is, do developers want people to play their games or not? If
they want high populations, they need the free players. Do they want to
encourage the free players to keep playing, or do they want the free
players to move on to any other of the numerous F2P games available?
Also,
people that do pay get sick and tired of aggressive marketing practices
and designs that are clearly put in place for no other reason than to
demand that they pay or demand that they pay more. Players aren't
stupid. Well, at least not all players are stupid.
Games
do need to make money. This is true. However, there's a difference
between good business practices and designs that will encourage people
to pay in order to support one's product/company and bad business
practices and designs that will encourage people to spend their money
elsewhere.
Yeah I can from what you posted that you have for the most part only played FTP games or games that were converted to that model.
Yeap the pay to progress faster is part of the Ftp game, they add grind much beyond what existed in PTP games so that people would go to the store and pay to level at a normal rate.
FTP games are stores with a sort of game added on to get people to spend money in the store.
Maybe Free players add more to a ftp game than people that play the same game and use the shop? I like to see the proof of that though.
I always though that the FTP players jump from game to game anyway.
Yeah I am sure all those FTP games love free loaders using resources and costing them money and not spending a dime. That is probably why most of them are such poor lame games.
None of this has anything to do with a pay to play game as its an actually game and not an glorified online store.
If Pantheon is not pay to play then I not be playing it.
Thanks for judging me.
Let's see, I paid for a sub to play WoW. Didn't keep playing because I found it to be boring in 2010-2011. Even though they were gonna let me level to 70 for free. (Is that the Burning Crusade Expansion.)
I paid for a sub while playing EQ2 during 2014.
I paid some money here and there while playing Neverwinter.
I paid money so I could keep playing BDO longer than a week. But then quit playing after getting to lvl 56 with my Dark Knight.
If a game seems worth it to me at the time, then I don't have a problem paying.
However, you are correct. Most F2P games are not worth it.
EDIT: I also paid to play WoW for a bit back in 2015. Only managed to suffer through it up until lvl 50 that time.
Also threw $10 into the gaping black hole that was known as Runes of Magic's super-ultra greedy Cash Shop back in 2008. Then they stopped letting you buy stuff with in-game currency from the Gaping Black Hole. That was pretty much the last straw for me. Had made it to level cap, but then they added an Expansion and like 5 more levels I think. Tried to get through it, but I was suffering way too much lag on my inadequate computer (which was all I had the time).
Yeah when I posted this, for some reason later posts were not showing up for me. If I had seen them I would have not misjudged you so badly.
I could not even make it through the WoW beta, only game that I ever tested that I could not force myself to finish testing.
Only FTP game that I ever played much was LOTRO , probably only because I like the story line and had a lifetime sub to it. And it was not FTP when I started playing it.
Here's some of my thoughts. Let me know if you agree/disagree or if you think I'm right or wrong.
P2W CASH SHOPS - F2P games should be "Pay to progress faster/more
quickly" rather than P2W or "Pay to succeed in less than 10 years".
People that work already pay. Why? Because they have less time to
invest in playing. Plus they often have families that require at least
some of their free time in order to maintain (w/out getting divorced or
w/e). Some people who play online games even do other things besides
play games in their free time. Regardless of whether they work or not.
Only independently wealthy people can usually afford to pay and play
for 8-18 hours a day.
Free players pay by
investing more time and energy into a game than paying players do. They
also perform a service by helping to provide content for those that do
pay. In many MMORPGs, paying players might often have trouble finding
players to group with if it weren't for free players. Games with PVP
might find it hard to get enough people to play a match if it weren't
for free players. Only the most popular MMORPGs with the highest
populations don't have these problems. Or usually don't have these
problems.
However, I found that queuing for
dungeons/multi-player content in FFXIV could sometimes involve long
waiting periods. Especially for DPS roles.
The
question is, do developers want people to play their games or not? If
they want high populations, they need the free players. Do they want to
encourage the free players to keep playing, or do they want the free
players to move on to any other of the numerous F2P games available?
Also,
people that do pay get sick and tired of aggressive marketing practices
and designs that are clearly put in place for no other reason than to
demand that they pay or demand that they pay more. Players aren't
stupid. Well, at least not all players are stupid.
Games
do need to make money. This is true. However, there's a difference
between good business practices and designs that will encourage people
to pay in order to support one's product/company and bad business
practices and designs that will encourage people to spend their money
elsewhere.
Yeah I can from what you posted that you have for the most part only played FTP games or games that were converted to that model.
Yeap the pay to progress faster is part of the Ftp game, they add grind much beyond what existed in PTP games so that people would go to the store and pay to level at a normal rate.
FTP games are stores with a sort of game added on to get people to spend money in the store.
Maybe Free players add more to a ftp game than people that play the same game and use the shop? I like to see the proof of that though.
I always though that the FTP players jump from game to game anyway.
Yeah I am sure all those FTP games love free loaders using resources and costing them money and not spending a dime. That is probably why most of them are such poor lame games.
None of this has anything to do with a pay to play game as its an actually game and not an glorified online store.
If Pantheon is not pay to play then I not be playing it.
Thanks for judging me.
Let's see, I paid for a sub to play WoW. Didn't keep playing because I found it to be boring in 2010-2011. Even though they were gonna let me level to 70 for free. (Is that the Burning Crusade Expansion.)
I paid for a sub while playing EQ2 during 2014.
I paid some money here and there while playing Neverwinter.
I paid money so I could keep playing BDO longer than a week. But then quit playing after getting to lvl 56 with my Dark Knight.
If a game seems worth it to me at the time, then I don't have a problem paying.
However, you are correct. Most F2P games are not worth it.
EDIT: I also paid to play WoW for a bit back in 2015. Only managed to suffer through it up until lvl 50 that time.
Also threw $10 into the gaping black hole that was known as Runes of Magic's super-ultra greedy Cash Shop back in 2008. Then they stopped letting you buy stuff with in-game currency from the Gaping Black Hole. That was pretty much the last straw for me. Had made it to level cap, but then they added an Expansion and like 5 more levels I think. Tried to get through it, but I was suffering way too much lag on my inadequate computer (which was all I had the time).
Yeah when I posted this, for some reason later posts were not showing up for me. If I had seen them I would have not misjudged you so badly.
I could not even make it through the WoW beta, only game that I ever tested that I could not force myself to finish testing.
Only FTP game that I ever played much was LOTRO , probably only because I like the story line and had a lifetime sub to it. And it was not FTP when I started playing it.
It's cool. I tried Lotro several years ago. Of course I like Tolkien's work, but I just couldn't get into it. Maybe part of it was because I already know how the story ends.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Comments
Because game companies are not charities. Video games are entertainment and a luxury item. I mean why stop there? Why can't I get front row seats at a sports game? I'll support the team and cheer louder than anyone else.
It's harsh but the truth is, money talks. What small contribution they make by keeping others playing is fairly insignificant compared to a whale especially if all those others aren't paying either.
If you are trying to equate societal issues with video game development, that's where this conversation ends because I don't see video games as a necessity.
In the end, if people don't want to can't support their favorite game with money then they shouldn't play. This is my personal opinion. If anything, I think this kind of behavior is offensive to game developers by devaluing their hard work and sacrifice. This sense of entitlement is probably one of the reasons why we are getting so many crummy F2P games.
"These companies made the decision to make the games F2P because they believe they can make more money by doing so".
"I would much rather pay a subscription, have no cash shop, and have a level playing field".
I'm disappointed on several fronts anyway.
- Like someone mentioned earlier, the game changed direction of what I expected at least in my own mind. I was expecting everyone on traditional servers much like EQ1 that I missed out on so many years back..... Simple design.
- Strange self absorbed design team that ignores modern templates to build a world quickly SO WE CAN HAVE A GAME.
Having medical issues, I may not last more than 1>3 years best case 5..... I don't think I will be seeing this game anyway.
Well, I hope your medical condition improves. Not that playing a game is the most important thing in life. But hopefully you'll still be around when Pantheon is released. And hopefully Pantheon will be released.
I happened to surf around many streamers while that Fortnite event was on and it was insane.The young kids all of them were buying costumes from the cash shop to dress up like a gangster,like the rapper.I would go so far as to say these modern gamer's are addicted to spending money and spending it by the truck loads.
Just Google how much money Fortnite and GTA online have made from cash shop use,you could feed a country.
The business side of gaming knows what they are doing and that it is truly unfair,so they always try to spin it in a positive manner....oh it's only cosmetics.NO what it is are these scummy developers are selling individual items in their game where it adds up to way way more than ANY game on this planet is worth.
If we used say Wow as an example,it would be like charging you $2 every time you do a crafting recipe.Hey you don't NEED to do that craft,so it is only a cosmetic part of the game,no pay to win so it's all good that we charge you $2 a craft.Imagine if Blizzard suddenly removed every single gear/weapon from your inventory and said,you want it back ,here buy each piece from us for $5.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Thank you, much appreciated!
My username is the same here as on the forums w/o the _EQ, so feel free to check it out - I’ve followed Pantheon since pre-kickstarter.
Also, the “niche” moniker was moved away from a long time ago - I argued against that as well, but the removal of it - Brad’s words at the time was to not pigeonhole their marketing efforts versus moving away from the tenets. Whether they change complete design decisions - I’ll wait till testing to really critique that.
Again, the caravan system was always thrown out there as a possibility - the problem with nothing really set in stone is people read one quote that they like and take it as gospel - similar to this system, Joppa has been on record saying that if a system plays out terrible - it will be scrapped (like in my view - the progeny system). My biggest issue with this though, and it would be more in line with your thoughts is they just need to release what they system details are now and adjust in testing if need be versus leaving the window open.
As for the forum discussions with Kilsin, it’s as much to generate discussion as anything to add some activity to an otherwise dead official forum at this point. I know I for one have mainly stopped posting due to what I said in another thread - ideas have been hashed out thousands of times - there’s no point. Are there more mainstream posters, probably, but its more likely that the hardcore followers got burned out of posting after 5+ years and will return once testing arrives.
And as far as corpse runs go, I have not see anything yet that says naked runs will be removed; however, that is actually more punitive than Brad originally discussed - he said the death penalty would be between EQ - VG (which, you could argue w/o corpse rot naked corpse runs are but he said numerous times that you’d respawn with gear like VG and think about a system similar to the tombstone one).
Also, if you listen to Joppa (who I think holds the most design influence - I’m no insider, but just from following the project) he more than anyone is most fond of the EQ challenge which gives me hope.
And, raiding will always be in the discussion for any game, and you can’t have no vertical progression, but Pantheon more than most still talks about horizontal progression. In a level based system, there’s always going to be an end-game.
So, I still think Pantheon will have the challenge, but like I’ve said a lot throughout the years, it will be somewhere in the middle between EQ to VG, most likely closer to VG which is still better than 100% of the current games.
They spent WAY too much time on graphics and meaningless features that only appeal to mainstream. I am not inclined to believe they have anything to provide that will be of worth. Their quest system is nothing more than "click and follow the bouncing ball" type of design (they missed why text input into a quest was important) and their "amazing" perception system is nothing more than a "if you have the skill, a quest question mark pops up". Personally, I don't think VR understands the first thing about why gaming is what it is, why people chase carrots, and what it means to explore and "solve" in such a game. Am I hard on them? Sure... but only because I love games, and these days, I find very few games, but I find a lot of random entertainment activities.
Doesn't have to be part of the mainland.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And @Tanist - I've always agreed with more of your postings than not, so we really never had any conflict that I can recall - I only listed my username to give more clout to me following the entire development cycle. It's been so long since I've followed it now, I don't even remember who I've really discussed anything with so I didn't recall having discussions here. I don't disagree with you either on the CM questions - I wouldn't raise them, and I don't argue that it's a good idea to do so - just giving a reason why.
Anyway, as far as me being more of an optimist/less cynical - I'm really not - back in 2014, I thought Pantheon had <1% chance to release. Now, I'd say I'd bet on a 50/50 shot. And, any crowdfunded game is a huge risk, so I banked on there being a huge chance of money loss when I first supported the Kickstarter in 2014 and even moreso after I re-pledged on the official forums after the failed Kickstarter - I just wanted to put my money where my mouth was and support a game that had most the tenets that I wanted. However, even during the Kickstarter and after, I thought the best case scenario would be that Pantheon would be a hybrid of EQ/VG with having more of a VG class design with EQ Resource Management/Downtime and death penalties regardless of what was being said (I've followed enough development cycles to know some changes are bound to occur). I think if released, there will be at least one RP server that will be closer to what you and I would want.
But, to get this discussion back on topic, one change that has happened since the failed Kickstarter that has been concrete is the cash shop that was initially on the official website was removed - had a la carte in-game advantage items: the sprinter's boots, tunic, ring, etc. (and included with pledge packages) due to intense negative feedback (I was one). After removal, they said they were only going to go with the sub model, and possibly a real life merchandise store in the future.
TLDR: I'm not surprised to see some tenets lean more to the mainstream, VG was also, and I always thought it would be an EQ/VG hybrid more than an EQ spiritual successor.
VG did some things well with its design (Crafting, Diplomacy system, and numerous other sub elements of play), but their mainstream designs were not something I favored (fast travel, easy mode death, class homogenization, etc...). I accepted VG as an influence to the areas that improved EQ, but was against those that supported mainstream.
I am saying there are a lot of cheap F2P players who complain about whales but they themselves refuse to support the game they play with real money. That's devaluing the developer's time and energy. Developers certainly are not getting paid by the freeloaders.
"Hey work harder to make my game better for me even though I won't pay you a dime."
All I am saying is if you find value in a game, pay up. If not you are taking advantage of a company's hard work.
Now, a developer could make the game better and easier for the non-payers but that goes against the philosophy of F2P. They have to make hurdles so it encourages and entices players to spend money.
The whole system puts milking money from customers first, nevermind quality game play. That's the problem. That's the core design of F2P which is why I dislike it.
I have no problem paying some money for a F2P game that I enjoy. I did while I played Neverwinter. Until the developers became obsessed with making the game worse and worse over time. Then I quit playing. However, most F2P/P2W games are not worth a dime of anyone's money.
It's cool. I tried Lotro several years ago. Of course I like Tolkien's work, but I just couldn't get into it. Maybe part of it was because I already know how the story ends.