What's the point? Mmorpgs need to evolve.

udinthrik

Lately I've been having some trouble seeing the point in playing mmorpgs. I grew up on mmorpgs.. but I think I might have outgrown them. Basically this is a rant about endgame, and the road to it. 

I find myself quitting mmorpgs when I come to the realization that i'm only grinding mobs or quests with bad storylines to get to endgame. Usually the endgame is less rewarding than games that have no grind. Sometimes I get stuck in an mmorpg because of the completionist in me, but that never lasts. Sometimes I get sucked in by character and template designs, but even in classless skill based mmorpgs it eventually becomes linear after you scratch the surface.

So what's the point? I want to love mmorpgs again, but I constantly find myself logging off and playing something fun like team fortress 2.

MightyUnclean

Why do you keep punishing yourself?

Bladestrom

You tastes have changed OP, accept it, and move on and have fun again  Your not alone, the RPG genre is a niche market and was artificially inflated with millions of player enticed with different forms of play from different genre, so no future RPG will satisfy them, and ironically neither will clones of games that basterdised the genre.  Catch 22 and lots of unhappy people venting away.

Foomerang

Hard to say exactly. It varies from person to person. For me, I'm having a second wind with the genre mainly because I stopped trying to make it into something it wasn't. The irony is once I figured that out, they opened themselves up to what I was going for in the first place haha.
So I guess for me at least, I had to stop trying so hard and let the game be what it wants to be.

Dkompoze

Why evolve??

Everytime a game tries something different or new, this community bashes them into non-existence.

 They may as well make the same shit over and over, that seems to be what everyone wants and keeps the companies in business.

Dont blame the companies ,blame this lovely community.

Alumicard

The point is that all MMORPGs are in essence the same imho. A hero needs to do quests to grow and then fight for better gear, more glory (pvp) or something.

Unless you have a good community or friends you play with then the feeling of "been there, done that" comes pretty quickly.

 

I'd love to play an MMO too again but even if I had the time I'm not sure if I'd have the same amount of fun as I had before. That's why I stick to games like the one you mentioned, simple multiplayer games. Maybe some time in the future a gem will be released and you go over the speed limit on the way home to get some extra 5 minutes of game time, who knows.

 

Until then, hf with whatever game and pray to the tech gods that a brain interface is released soon.

Howbadisbad

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Originally posted by Robokapp
We need a better raiding experience that isn't melee-unfriendly. That'd be evolution.

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I guess if being unable to jerk off while you run your DPS macro because your melee DPS instead of ranged is 'melee unfriendly' then you would be right.

klash2def

Originally posted by Bladestrom
You tastes have changed OP, accept it, and move on and have fun again  Your not alone, the RPG genre is a niche market and was artificially inflated with millions of player enticed with different forms of play from different genre, so no future RPG will satisfy them, and ironically neither will clones of games that basterdised the genre.  Catch 22 and lots of unhappy people venting away.

 Here's how I see it: MMORPG used to be a fun thing because it was niche and even when it wasnt niche it was still fun for a little while. The success of some of the games on the market really started to force companies to go away from the RPG part in trade to satisfy the masses of people now coming in. MMORPG is supposed to be an RPG experience with friends. Thats how it was in the start.

 

RPG games IE: Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, KOTOR, Fallout.. ETC are where the niche still is IMHO. Those games are still fun for me. I am waiting for the next version of these rpg games whether it be from the actual series or a new IP. Ive almost  given up on MMOs completely as it is starting to feel uncomfortable to even bring them up anymore. WOW will be here for another 20 yrs if its up to them so yea.. companies will always try to compete with those guys so yea dead horse if you may. 

Loktofeit

Originally posted by Alumicard

The point is that all MMORPGs are in essence the same imho. A hero needs to do quests to grow and then fight for better gear, more glory (pvp) or something.

It's the catch-22 this crowd has created for itself. They want evolution, innovation, something new, etc but when it comes along, they reject it for not being real, pure, old school or whatever.  MMOs have evolved and millions are enjoying them. This crowd is just late to the party. 

Foomerang

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Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Alumicard The point is that all MMORPGs are in essence the same imho. A hero needs to do quests to grow and then fight for better gear, more glory (pvp) or something.

It's the catch-22 this crowd has created for itself. They want evolution, innovation, something new, etc but when it comes along, they reject it for not being real, pure, old school or whatever.  MMOs have evolved and millions are enjoying them. This crowd is just late to the party. 

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The other catch 22 is that a new mmo must be perfect in every way while old school mmos are praised for their faults.

CrazKanuk

I think it's more about the individual than the game, to be honest. I've gone through similar cycles, and they actually come more frequently now, too. The worlds may be a little diluted and the stories may be more generic, but the fact is that you KNOW it's going to take you 2 or 3 months to get to the end game, and that's a drag. Shoot, I even put down Dragon Age Inquisition because I was fed up with the artificially inflated storyline. I find that fewer and fewer people really give a crap about the story or world they're playing in, so it's merely a race to the "end".

 

I'll go out on a limb here and say that I can see the formula changing. I can see more games going the way of Destiny. 15-20 hours of story content and then you just play with friends. Not saying they got it "right" but I think that's probably where we'll see things headed. Sort of a 180 in the time time investment model that's out there now. 90% endgame and 10% story. 

Flyte27

Originally posted by CrazKanuk

I think it's more about the individual than the game, to be honest. I've gone through similar cycles, and they actually come more frequently now, too. The worlds may be a little diluted and the stories may be more generic, but the fact is that you KNOW it's going to take you 2 or 3 months to get to the end game, and that's a drag. Shoot, I even put down Dragon Age Inquisition because I was fed up with the artificially inflated storyline. I find that fewer and fewer people really give a crap about the story or world they're playing in, so it's merely a race to the "end".

 

I'll go out on a limb here and say that I can see the formula changing. I can see more games going the way of Destiny. 15-20 hours of story content and then you just play with friends. Not saying they got it "right" but I think that's probably where we'll see things headed. Sort of a 180 in the time time investment model that's out there now. 90% endgame and 10% story. 

I think when you start playing just for the loot then there isn't much point anymore.

I don't believe old MMOs had great storytelling, but there were a lot of RPGs that did.  There is a lot that goes into story telling and I find it is a bit of a lost art.  It is a lot more then just writing good text.  You need some good music to set the tone for the scene and you a variety of characters with varying different personalities.  You need good emotes and scripted events that trigger different emotions.  You also need some kind of conflict of good vs evil.  I find most people want to do away with good vs evil, but it really is the main driving force of these types of games (RPG).

CrazKanuk

Originally posted by Flyte27

Originally posted by CrazKanuk

I think it's more about the individual than the game, to be honest. I've gone through similar cycles, and they actually come more frequently now, too. The worlds may be a little diluted and the stories may be more generic, but the fact is that you KNOW it's going to take you 2 or 3 months to get to the end game, and that's a drag. Shoot, I even put down Dragon Age Inquisition because I was fed up with the artificially inflated storyline. I find that fewer and fewer people really give a crap about the story or world they're playing in, so it's merely a race to the "end".

 

I'll go out on a limb here and say that I can see the formula changing. I can see more games going the way of Destiny. 15-20 hours of story content and then you just play with friends. Not saying they got it "right" but I think that's probably where we'll see things headed. Sort of a 180 in the time time investment model that's out there now. 90% endgame and 10% story. 

I think when you start playing just for the loot then there isn't much point anymore.

I don't believe old MMOs had great storytelling, but there were a lot of RPGs that did.  There is a lot that goes into story telling and I find it is a bit of a lost art.  It is a lot more then just writing good text.  You need some good music to set the tone for the scene and you a variety of characters with varying different personalities.  You need good emotes and scripted events that trigger different emotions.  You also need some kind of conflict of good vs evil.  I find most people want to do away with good vs evil, but it really is the main driving force of these types of games (RPG).

Totally agree on the loot. I'm not necessarily talking about looting alone, though. I'm saying that most games throw up a 300 or 400 hour barrier before you can play with your friends. I think that's a big turn-off for many. I think there's so much more than can be done, like with the good vs evil idea, by reducing that initial barrier and letting people play with their friends, than having them solo grind for a few hundred hours, which seems to be the prevailing way to do things now. 

 

Story can be extended at the endgame, as can conflict. It's just that time investment I think is difficult for many to overcome, or care about for that matter. 

Malabooga

Originally posted by CrazKanuk

I think it's more about the individual than the game, to be honest. I've gone through similar cycles, and they actually come more frequently now, too. The worlds may be a little diluted and the stories may be more generic, but the fact is that you KNOW it's going to take you 2 or 3 months to get to the end game, and that's a drag. Shoot, I even put down Dragon Age Inquisition because I was fed up with the artificially inflated storyline. I find that fewer and fewer people really give a crap about the story or world they're playing in, so it's merely a race to the "end".

 

I'll go out on a limb here and say that I can see the formula changing. I can see more games going the way of Destiny. 15-20 hours of story content and then you just play with friends. Not saying they got it "right" but I think that's probably where we'll see things headed. Sort of a 180 in the time time investment model that's out there now. 90% endgame and 10% story. 

Whats so surprising?

I said that 5 years ago, if you want to make lobby game ala wow dont waste your resources on open world like wows.

I guess GW/DDO were ahead of their time ;P

Dullahan

While new features and forms of gameplay are always nice, games have really devolved into a more trivial form for the sake of convenience.  This has compromised their long term viability and both the qualities of open-endedness and immersion.  Not going to knock it, a lot of people like the current formula, but seeing as how much of these games struggle to keep their playerbase longer than 3 months, its quickly becoming a thing of the past.

Its time to step back and see what has worked in the past, and what people like about current games and then start utilizing concepts from each to bring the RPG back to mmorpgs.

Amjoco

So many threads picking apart mmorpgs. Quit playing if you don't like them. /shrug

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_game_genres

rodingo

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by Loktofeit

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Originally posted by Alumicard The point is that all MMORPGs are in essence the same imho. A hero needs to do quests to grow and then fight for better gear, more glory (pvp) or something.

---

It's the catch-22 this crowd has created for itself. They want evolution, innovation, something new, etc but when it comes along, they reject it for not being real, pure, old school or whatever.  MMOs have evolved and millions are enjoying them. This crowd is just late to the party. 

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The other catch 22 is that a new mmo must be perfect in every way while old school mmos are praised for their faults.

I think Loktofeit and Foomerang both got it right. 

DAS1337

Originally posted by Bladestrom
You tastes have changed OP, accept it, and move on and have fun again  Your not alone, the RPG genre is a niche market and was artificially inflated with millions of player enticed with different forms of play from different genre, so no future RPG will satisfy them, and ironically neither will clones of games that basterdised the genre.  Catch 22 and lots of unhappy people venting away.

Uhm..  what?

 

The RPG genre is the most popular of all video games.  It spans all styles.  I think you need to take a step back and realize what you just typed.

centkin

What happened is computers stopped getting faster at the rate they used to, and some graphics overreach occurred. 

MMOs of old tended to push computers.  That new Everquest expansion needed a new video card if you wanted to see the trees sway. 

Computer power came to a halt about the same time MMOs did. 

The problem is there isn't enough power to have the kind of world and interactions that people want on an MMO scale. 

So what you see is same old same old.

It will not be until optical or quantum computers hit the mainstream that MMOs take that huge next step.  Silicon just doesn't cut it.

Muke

Originally posted by udinthrik

Lately I've been having some trouble seeing the point in playing mmorpgs. I grew up on mmorpgs.. but I think I might have outgrown them. Basically this is a rant about endgame, and the road to it. 

I find myself quitting mmorpgs when I come to the realization that i'm only grinding mobs or quests with bad storylines to get to endgame. Usually the endgame is less rewarding than games that have no grind. Sometimes I get stuck in an mmorpg because of the completionist in me, but that never lasts. Sometimes I get sucked in by character and template designs, but even in classless skill based mmorpgs it eventually becomes linear after you scratch the surface.

So what's the point? I want to love mmorpgs again, but I constantly find myself logging off and playing something fun like team fortress 2.

So why do you keep themeparks when you don't like the linear grind and endgame?

Maquiame

Originally posted by DMKano

MMOs continue to evolve - just need to look at ALL the MMOs and not the dozen popular games that have been around for years.

Look at NEW lesser known games and you'll see a ton of revolution.

 

You are right about this, too bad they aren't handled better *coughs* looking at you XLGAmes/Trion for Archeage. (bots, hacks,cheaters) I loved AA but those factors killed it for me.

 

Hopefully Daum with Black Desert will get it right

Axehilt

Originally posted by Robokapp

We need a better raiding experience that isn't melee-unfriendly. 

That'd be evolution.

What games is this even still a thing?  For several expansions in WOW my rogue has felt like by far the smoothest raiding char out of all the classes.

Maquiame

Originally posted by centkin

What happened is computers stopped getting faster at the rate they used to, and some graphics overreach occurred. 

MMOs of old tended to push computers.  That new Everquest expansion needed a new video card if you wanted to see the trees sway. 

Computer power came to a halt about the same time MMOs did. 

The problem is there isn't enough power to have the kind of world and interactions that people want on an MMO scale. 

So what you see is same old same old.

It will not be until optical or quantum computers hit the mainstream that MMOs take that huge next step.  Silicon just doesn't cut it.

I disagree, I am willing to bet what most mmo players that are jaded want is a Western company handled version of ArcheAge with all the bells and whistles but with Western customer service, cheater and bot blocks and western story lore presentation.

 

I am willing to bet that many people would kill for an Archage/Black Desert laden mmo that took place in the Pillars of Eternity universe with excellent (or better than AA's at least) security measures to not demean the player experience.

Viper482

Originally posted by udinthrik

Lately I've been having some trouble seeing the point in playing mmorpgs. I grew up on mmorpgs.. but I think I might have outgrown them. Basically this is a rant about endgame, and the road to it. 

I find myself quitting mmorpgs when I come to the realization that i'm only grinding mobs or quests with bad storylines to get to endgame. Usually the endgame is less rewarding than games that have no grind. Sometimes I get stuck in an mmorpg because of the completionist in me, but that never lasts. Sometimes I get sucked in by character and template designs, but even in classless skill based mmorpgs it eventually becomes linear after you scratch the surface.

So what's the point? I want to love mmorpgs again, but I constantly find myself logging off and playing something fun like team fortress 2.

 

 

The genre is in no way what it used to be. You cannot expect to have the same experience when so much is different. When they stop dumbing down MMO's and make them the way they used to then you can judge if it is you or the genre that is the problem.

Arawulf

Originally posted by udinthrik

Lately I've been having some trouble seeing the point in playing mmorpgs. I grew up on mmorpgs.. but I think I might have outgrown them. Basically this is a rant about endgame, and the road to it. 

I find myself quitting mmorpgs when I come to the realization that i'm only grinding mobs or quests with bad storylines to get to endgame. Usually the endgame is less rewarding than games that have no grind. Sometimes I get stuck in an mmorpg because of the completionist in me, but that never lasts. Sometimes I get sucked in by character and template designs, but even in classless skill based mmorpgs it eventually becomes linear after you scratch the surface.

So what's the point? I want to love mmorpgs again, but I constantly find myself logging off and playing something fun like team fortress 2.

You're suffering from what I think that a large percentage of MMO fans is struggling with. For the last ten years, the same game has been remade over and over. It almost doesn't matter which MMO you log into, you're almost always doing the same exact things. Once WoW hit the jackpot, MMO developers caught a whiff of that cash and said, "Ah, that's how to do it!" In their mind, why take a risk when we can go for the sure thing. Experimentation halted, creativity waned and all we had were just different iterations of basically the same game. 

That being said, with the struggles of nearly every single game that targeted either WoW players or disgruntled WoW players (WildStar according to Jeremy Gaffney) a new crop of more creative and innovative MMO's are starting to crop up. The best example of these, in my humble opinion, is Crowfall. For years, Gordon Walton has complated that WoW sucked the creativity out of the MMO space and that getting publishers to take risks wasn't happening. Gordon, of course, was on UO and SWG. When he lead SWTOR, we know what his directions were from EA & Bioware. Ombwah from Revival talks about all the creativity he wanted to put into RIFT was taken out (for example, Rifts weren't supposed to start in the same place all the time - they were supposed to be able to start anywhere). WildStar even came out specifically saying that they were started from a team of 17 WoW devs and wanted to do it better - we see how that's worked out. Same game with different frosting.

Games like Crowfall, Revival, Shroud of the Avatar, Camelot Unchained may not blow up the genre like a $100M+ AAA MMORPG, but for long time MMO players who are ready for a change, it's coming - the only question is will we accept the new ideas and creativity from niche games from smaller studios or will be continue to wait for the next failed "Big Thing"? 

A friend just pointed me to a video that basically says the same thing: https://youtu.be/jTHsll9LFZ4

Gamer54321

The general notion of "MMO's need to evolve", is as nonsensical as the general notion of "people need to change".

Also.. MMO's don't have "needs".