Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Do you remember when MMO's seemed to keep going on forever?
Abuz0r
Member UncommonPosts: 550
MMO's still maxed out at level 100, or 75. They didn't have amazing graphics or epic dragon battles, those were left to the console games. What made an MMO fun was the endless progression. Putting in a little time here, a little time there. Working on a skill for a few hours, or leveling up a little bit.
I can't find that feeling anywhere now. When I log into a game, there's a bunch of maxed out level bankstares in town. Instead of starting a slow and personal journey enjoying the game, there is some goal to race through 'content' as quickly as possible so that you can change from the game you're playing to some other end game that everyone else is playing. The whole concept of a content locust developed because mmo games allowed it to.
What is 'content' anyway? Some guided tour of the game using grocery quests? Who needed quests anyway? Good old mmorpg games back in the day had 'a quest or two' but the game wasn't about questing, that's Zelda. MMORPGs weren't supposed to be about questing. Is the younger generation now too ADD to enjoy a good old style MMORPG?
It went like this:
Start with a wood sword, barely defeat a goblin, find a pair of boots, put them on.
Repeat killing goblins until you have a junky set of armor and then find something a little tougher.
Find a replacement for your weapon.
Learn how to prepare food or potions to ease your slaying of now trolls.
Randomly find an amazing item and experience serendipity as everyone wants to buy it from you.
....6 Months later....
Level 51 now, with 1.2 trillion xp until level 52, you stand with friends farming Fire Pixies because they have a .05% chance to drop some amazing piece of armor.
Use the potions and food you've created to help kill them. Get some decent XP, nowhere near a level, but it's XP you don't have to earn twice.
Go back and prepare some more potions and food, advertise some loot you picked up and hope for a buyer, give some to your noob friend.
Get level 52 6 weeks later. 75?? LOL no1 has gotten there yet....
......
.......
Now games are more like:
Quest: Please slay 3 fig newtons.
Completed!!!! Level 10! Here's a complete set of armor.
Quest: Please click 3 rocks and wait for timebars.
Completed!!!! Level 15! New weapon!
....Repeat for about 20 hours worth of material.......
Completed!!!! Max Level! Dungeons Unlocked! New PVP Arena Unlocked.
~~bzzt converting game bzzt bzzt, game is now an arcade game, mmorpg has ended bzzt~~
Player feels obligated to waste time and effort trying to get the same items everyone else is already running around with but eventually loses interest and goes to mmorpg.com and cries that there wasn't enough 'content'
.......
.......
Grind? Is that what you think I want? That's all mmorpgs used to be. We loved them. Let the console gamers see the credits... mmorpg gamers play a game that doesn't have an end.... it keeps going on forever and you can't beat it. No two characters turned out the same, your little sister could get on and ruin your character by bringing up the wrong stats.
Tired of questing, tired of online multiplayer console emulators.
Give me another MMO... we haven't seen one in since about... Lineage 2? (Which was originally a good mmorpg but has now been converted into this new style of endgame race)
Comments
Oh I hope this happens. The thing is, mmorpg.com staff just flat out told us, that they don't love us anymore because of
The thing is, even Nintendo is trying to prevent the creation of MMORPG Guy we might call him. But EVEN NINTENDO allows you to buy a Wii or Wii U Controller and not have to use the Wiimotes which have battery times that can cause gamers to feel like there is a time limit of ~4 hours of gaming, and then Nintendo comes in like your parents as if to say okay, go outside now! But Nintendo does so gracefully and in a way that doesn't feel like they are ashamed of gamers. Nintendo themselves seem to even more so, understand gaming in a way we no longer do, with characters such as Wario, whom Nintendo even made games for, but admittedly, has become woefully more bizarre. I used to absolutely LOVE Super Mario 3: Wario Land. Certainly, Wario can't be all that bad that people claim him to be.
As long as you have any numbers that "get better" over time you have levels.
If there is better gear than what you have you have levels.
Any type of progression is "levels".
Levels aren't the issue. Having greater disparity between players is more of "that" issue.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Same here, as I played almost every MMO except EQ. What the OP describes is the reason I only spent a week in EQ. Repetitive grind... bleh.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
LOL, you forgot "lag out and die, or simply die and loose all that XP from the last couple of hours/days/weeks and start getting all that XP all over again".
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Play a non-themepark, non-levelbased MMO.
Problem solved.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
What title are you referring to OP? I mean, if it was out there at one time you can still play it today. Only a few big titles have shutdown, and if you look hard enough those others can be found.
I think the problem is the individual, not the developers. There isn't a title out there today that you can't make into something you believe could be your new home for an mmorpg. It's so easy to just give up on one and move onto another, without completely putting 100% into it. Even some of the worse games can be the best if you get involved with friends and/or make friends there.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Me not wantng to bang my head against the wall every day for few hours doesnt make me ADD, unable to keep focus.
The "real" MMO failed when much more enjoyable alternative appeared and everyone jumped ship from "real" MMO.
Yeah, farming same pixies for 6 weeks few hours a day. Those were the days. not
Since such game cant even be funded on KS....yeah.
This isn't the solution, sorry. I've said it before and I'll say it again, what I see as one of the best systems currently is Destiny. You serve up 15-20 hours of content and then you simply open up the gameplay and let people do what they want. It definitely has it's own downfalls, things that could be overcome with PC, such as ACTUAL communication with people, but the concept, the framework is sound.
Sorry, OP, I'm definitely not up for models with artificially-inflated progression models specifically designed to have me paying for the next 10 years. I think that the problem is that we look back fondly on some of the older games like vanilla WoW, EQ, SWG, and we think, "MAN!! That was so epic" therefore that MUST be what's missing right now. I really don't think that's the case. Anyone who remembers those days clearly remembers complaining and lamenting at length about the grind. The main difference is that you were usually whining about it with friends.
The biggest issue with levelling systems, in my opinion, is that you create an ever-increasing gap between you and your friends. If you play more than them then you'll, ultimately, be chasing a bigger carrot and you won't look back, leaving them behind. Create story content where everyone is at the same level in 15 or 20 hours and that is removed. Gear-based progression is still there, the developer will need to be more dedicated to new content creation, but it's a step toward re-creating community, which is what's missing.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
The older generation was also "too ADD" to enjoy grind MMORPGs.
Except back then we called it "having standards", and we pointed out that multiplying a game's time requirement by 100 without providing 100x the gameplay only makes a game worse, not better.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Uh, no.
I remember those days crystal clear, and there was no lamentations over a grind. Not for me or either of the guilds I played with (I had max level characters on two servers). Every day was a new adventure. New people, new places, new objectives. Freedom from having to follow some pre-determined path.
Based on your post, I stand in doubt that you have first hand experience from the days of EQ and SWG. You sound just like other players here who played modern games and went back and tried to play those games on some emu server or in the current changed form and did not get to see what it was actually like for yourself.
The real MMO's still have at least 50% of their membership after a decade or more. They have not become less popular, they simply failed to attract the instant gratification players that you see swarming from game to game.
You cannot succeed in the long term by appealing to the instant gratification crowd, all you can do is make a money grab and cash in before they move on to the next game. A lot of publishers are aware of this, and games are not being designed for long-term players. They are literally designing around the 2-3 month cash grab.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Except you can't speak for all of us, only yourself. I loved these old MMOs very much (still do).
The "gameplay" was at least half made up of the social interaction with the world being the backdrop for that. For me, corpse runs, delevelling, no instant travel without the help of key classes - these were things that made the game difficult but also provided opportunities to build in game friendships (as in, better have a cleric to rez you or a necro to summon your corpse from down in that brutal dungeon you just wiped in).
Even if that was true (and its not lol, random nimber is random number)
WoW has 100000% of their membership after 10 years (and yes we know wows numbers)
AND large part of those 100000% are exact same players that yours 50%.
You were sayin?
EVE doesn't, still growing, no levels and no cash grab.
in fact, if you are smart you can rob them by playing for free.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I have 2 wishes:
1, Someone remake EQ to recapture the original's feel (including the grind!)
2, Make WoW want me to log in at times other than raid time, my guild atm seems to just be logging in for the raiding side of things twice a week and thats it, totally crazy :(0
― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
I'm not sure a game should go on forever. Sooner or later whatever game mechanics exist will have been experienced. Then boredom starts to set in unless you have a lot of people in game amusing themselves. In UO and EQ a lot of people amused themselves and others with a variety of creativity.
Personally I don't think a game is more fun because things are always going on. This theme (as mentioned before) seems a bit off somehow. Having to do constant quests, group, raid, or PvP in a very strictly enforced environment doesn't allow for much player creativity. Any of those activities will become boring fairly quickly due to the rigidness of them.
Having one combined world where everything is connected together and there are no instances seems to better foster community and creativity. People feel they are making their mark on the game world in some way.
Constant combat doesn't really mean the game is fun. Even if that combat is challenging IMO.
There are a lot of activities that could be added in to games. Older ones had it already. Things like Travel, crafting (deep crafting), abilities to help each other in certain situations (not necessarily combat), and things of that nature.
The world could be made to feel a lot more alive then it currently does. A lot of this has to do with content that is setup for you to easily explore and beat with little difficulty. It seems like little effort is made to make the worlds and people feel alive. Most of them are fairly static with no scripts aside from cut scenes.
Quests consist of a lot of mindless clicking in most cases. It is not really decision making at all. That would require you to not have an interface that tells you where to go and what to do. Such a system is the opposite of making decisions (let alone hard decisions.
The attributes of characters have little impact on the game and they are assigned automatically. This is again decisions being made for you instead of giving the player the chance to experiment and possible screw up their character or invent something new that works.
Mobs have been drastically reduced in power (artificially) compared to old games. One might argue that you have more abilities in new games or strategy. The question is what does that matter if mobs are already made (artificially) easy to beat so you don't really have to use much strategy outside of group/raid/pvp content. Even in that type of content you don't have to make a lot of decisions anymore because of the way they have changed combat to mostly being reliant on DPS alone.
The whole scraping of things like a meaningful day/night system where NPCs walk around doing things, finding light sources for dark areas, removing visions impeding weather conditions, removing food/water, tracking, foraging, etc., and removing things like having to level up a certain weapon skill have removed a lot of possible decisions players would have to make.
In general most people say there are a lot more decisions to make in today's games, but I would disagree with that assessment. Most of these games have really removed any form of meaningful choice that impacts the character you are playing. One Joe will be the same as another Joe.
What you have when you combine all this is a not very compelling game with a lot of simple quests and other mini games all segregated from one another. Even the decision in terms of races is no one of visual appeal rather then anything meaningful which makes the whole choice very meaningless as a decision. Most games I seen a lot of Anime looking characters with small amounts of clothing.
I should also add that crafting has removed most decisions that were involved with it. UO had a much more advanced crafting system then modern day MMOs.
One word. Jedi. *drop mic*
I'm not saying that they weren't GREAT. What I'm saying is that the grind is not what made them great. People think that simply by injecting a grind back into games we're somehow going to jump back in, get all nostalgic about it and fall in love with the genre again. I would contend that it's actually counter-productive at this point.
If you're going to assert that placing grind back into a game is what will make it great then I won't argue with you because I'm sure it would be fruitless. All I'm saying is that there was much MUCH more to it than the grind.
Still have my SWG discs at home (with the box). Actually, I still have friends these days from SWG and from WoW who are relatively local, who I hook up with to do beers occasionally. Please don't paint such a rosy picture of SWG, either. You're probably one of the 1500 sigs on the petition to bring it back. Amazing in so many ways, but just not enough interest to keep it around (except for the few thousand stalwart defenders at the end).
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Yes because there is such a HUGE difference between farming pixies and farming a dungeon in FFXIV:ARR for a pair of boots right?
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
And which MMO would that be?
Explorer 73% Achiever 53% Socializer 53% Killer 20%
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999