Originally posted by madazz WoW's biggest legacy will be all the cry babies and haters that will talk about it for years after it goes away.
excellent contribution.
Wow biggest contribution was its first couple years of existence, it moved the genre on by a mile. Then the game changed hands and it slowly became the market leading game where the story is minimal investment and maximum profits, this is the market leader that shareholder point to when developers want to invest money in innovation and why hundreds of millinos was poured into shite like wildstar. The best of it is, because blizzard is blindly defended and because of their morals they will continue to suck away at their captured audiance, pumping out shitty expansion after expansion. That is the reality of WOW today, bravo.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
The fact is, WoW improved the genre. It made things more convenient, for one.
Do people really want to go back to slow regens while sitting down? Some people, yes. Because that down time encouraged you to group with others and gave you time to chat. Or waiting at dungeon entrances, while also waiting for other players to arrive, only to have one person drop the group 10 minutes later? I've never had this experience in an MMO because I played MMOs with well designed public dungeons. I went in on my own and killed what I could, or found groups with the people already running around inside. How many people liked alt-tabbing to a website for each quest? Considering that quests were entirely optional fluff features, and I used them to take a break from the other gameplay, and they were really well written compared to today's quests... I almost never had to use a website. I took my time and enjoyed the game, because it wasn't directly tied to the leveling experience.
As far as i know, no other MMO offers addons like WoW does. DAoC did before WoW. Vanguard did. ESO does now. Camelot Unchained will. The macros and customization aspect of it alone, make it superior to most MMO's. Most well designed MMOs don't need external tools to make it playable.
I could go on, but there's no point. People will always blame WoW
Except the OP specifically doesn't blame WoW. They talk about WoW's legacy, and what its success lead to. He blames other devs and publishers, but it DID start with WoW.
The rapidly failing WoW clones, and all the studios and publishers pulling out of the MMO space speaks volumes for how much things have "improved".
The fact is, WoW improved the genre. It made things more convenient, for one.
Do people really want to go back to slow regens while sitting down? Some people, yes. Because that down time encouraged you to group with others and gave you time to chat. Or waiting at dungeon entrances, while also waiting for other players to arrive, only to have one person drop the group 10 minutes later? I've never had this experience in an MMO because I played MMOs with well designed public dungeons. I went in on my own and killed what I could, or found groups with the people already running around inside. How many people liked alt-tabbing to a website for each quest? Considering that quests were entirely optional fluff features, and I used them to take a break from the other gameplay, and they were really well written compared to today's quests... I almost never had to use a website. I took my time and enjoyed the game, because it wasn't directly tied to the leveling experience.
As far as i know, no other MMO offers addons like WoW does. DAoC did before WoW. Vanguard did. ESO does now. Camelot Unchained will. The macros and customization aspect of it alone, make it superior to most MMO's. Most well designed MMOs don't need external tools to make it playable.
I could go on, but there's no point. People will always blame WoW
Except the OP specifically doesn't blame WoW. They talk about WoW's legacy, and what its success lead to. He blames other devs and publishers, but it DID start with WoW.
The rapidly failing WoW clones, and all the studios and publishers pulling out of the MMO space speaks volumes for how much things have "improved".
WoW's so called legacy is not the fault of WoW. WoW did lead to anything. You're blaming shit that has nothing to do with WoW. When someone shoots and kills someone, you blame the person, not the gun manufacturer.
The failing WoW clones are failing because they cloned WoW and failed to be better than WoW. If you clone something, and it isn't better than the original, is it any surprise the clone fades away? No right? Is that the originals fault? No, its simply reality. And its the fault of the clone not being made well enough. Which is why they shouldn't be trying to clone in the first place and instead forge their own path. But the fact that this process isn't happening isn't WoW's fault which is what you and Kiyoris would have us believe.(same with OP)
The fact is, WoW improved the genre. It made things more convenient, for one.
Do people really want to go back to slow regens while sitting down? Some people, yes. Because that down time encouraged you to group with others and gave you time to chat. Or waiting at dungeon entrances, while also waiting for other players to arrive, only to have one person drop the group 10 minutes later? I've never had this experience in an MMO because I played MMOs with well designed public dungeons. I went in on my own and killed what I could, or found groups with the people already running around inside. How many people liked alt-tabbing to a website for each quest? Considering that quests were entirely optional fluff features, and I used them to take a break from the other gameplay, and they were really well written compared to today's quests... I almost never had to use a website. I took my time and enjoyed the game, because it wasn't directly tied to the leveling experience.
As far as i know, no other MMO offers addons like WoW does. DAoC did before WoW. Vanguard did. ESO does now. Camelot Unchained will. The macros and customization aspect of it alone, make it superior to most MMO's. Most well designed MMOs don't need external tools to make it playable.
I could go on, but there's no point. People will always blame WoW
Except the OP specifically doesn't blame WoW. They talk about WoW's legacy, and what its success lead to. He blames other devs and publishers, but it DID start with WoW.
The rapidly failing WoW clones, and all the studios and publishers pulling out of the MMO space speaks volumes for how much things have "improved".
WoW's so called legacy is not the fault of WoW. WoW did lead to anything. You're blaming shit that has nothing to do with WoW. When someone shoots and kills someone, you blame the person, not the gun manufacturer.
yup its blizzard. as soon as a market leader with a captured market abuses its position and gets away with it then that sends a clear signal to the market.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
WoW collected some of the best elements of the genre, and cut out the cancers that were keeping it back. Add in a lot of streamlining and a few nifty new features, and voila, a record breaking success for WoW.
Well done, Blizzard! I salute you!
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
The fact is, WoW improved the genre. It made things more convenient, for one.
Do people really want to go back to slow regens while sitting down? Some people, yes. Because that down time encouraged you to group with others and gave you time to chat. Or waiting at dungeon entrances, while also waiting for other players to arrive, only to have one person drop the group 10 minutes later? I've never had this experience in an MMO because I played MMOs with well designed public dungeons. I went in on my own and killed what I could, or found groups with the people already running around inside. How many people liked alt-tabbing to a website for each quest? Considering that quests were entirely optional fluff features, and I used them to take a break from the other gameplay, and they were really well written compared to today's quests... I almost never had to use a website. I took my time and enjoyed the game, because it wasn't directly tied to the leveling experience.
As far as i know, no other MMO offers addons like WoW does. DAoC did before WoW. Vanguard did. ESO does now. Camelot Unchained will. The macros and customization aspect of it alone, make it superior to most MMO's. Most well designed MMOs don't need external tools to make it playable.
I could go on, but there's no point. People will always blame WoW
Except the OP specifically doesn't blame WoW. They talk about WoW's legacy, and what its success lead to. He blames other devs and publishers, but it DID start with WoW.
The rapidly failing WoW clones, and all the studios and publishers pulling out of the MMO space speaks volumes for how much things have "improved".
WoW's so called legacy is not the fault of WoW.
No one is saying it is WoW's fault that all the publishers forced all those other MMOs to be WoW clones. And all the other crap they happened. They simply identify WoW as the catalyst. You'd know that if you read it, or even my post, at all. But it seems you're skimming and then attacking.
No doubt we will see hundreds more clones but Wow has not done a single thing to determine how i play and what type of game i play.I gave Wow the same chance i give every game,i very quickly realized it was not that good a game so i have basically ignored it since year 1.If every dev wants to keep throwing out cheap Wow clones,let them,i won't be supporting them.
Blizzard as a whole has always gone for cheap game design from it's Diablo to Starcraft to HS to HOTS they are all easy low budget games to make.Wow was by far their biggest effort but even then went low budget in every aspect of it's design.Yes even to this day ,instances are their thing,easier cheaper to make.
The MMO field is imo extremely hard to get into,IF doing it right and putting in a triple A effort.IMO all the games are either B rated C/D or complete freeware.
it is one thing to say "ok this is basically the highest tech we can use without alienating millions of game's or to say we have to keep graphics in check to again make the game viable for many,but when you drop 2-3 notches below that,you are just being cheap on EFFORT and on game design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The fact is, WoW improved the genre. It made things more convenient, for one.
Do people really want to go back to slow regens while sitting down? Some people, yes. Because that down time encouraged you to group with others and gave you time to chat. Or waiting at dungeon entrances, while also waiting for other players to arrive, only to have one person drop the group 10 minutes later? I've never had this experience in an MMO because I played MMOs with well designed public dungeons. I went in on my own and killed what I could, or found groups with the people already running around inside. How many people liked alt-tabbing to a website for each quest? Considering that quests were entirely optional fluff features, and I used them to take a break from the other gameplay, and they were really well written compared to today's quests... I almost never had to use a website. I took my time and enjoyed the game, because it wasn't directly tied to the leveling experience.
As far as i know, no other MMO offers addons like WoW does. DAoC did before WoW. Vanguard did. ESO does now. Camelot Unchained will. The macros and customization aspect of it alone, make it superior to most MMO's. Most well designed MMOs don't need external tools to make it playable.
I could go on, but there's no point. People will always blame WoW
Except the OP specifically doesn't blame WoW. They talk about WoW's legacy, and what its success lead to. He blames other devs and publishers, but it DID start with WoW.
The rapidly failing WoW clones, and all the studios and publishers pulling out of the MMO space speaks volumes for how much things have "improved".
WoW's so called legacy is not the fault of WoW.
No one is saying it is WoW's fault that all the publishers forced all those other MMOs to be WoW clones. And all the other crap they happened. They simply identify WoW as the catalyst. You'd know that if you read it, or even my post, at all. But it seems you're skimming and then attacking.
When you identify something as the catalyst, you're saying thats what caused the situation to come to a head. In other words, saying its at fault.
WoW collected some of the best elements of the genre, and cut out the cancers that were keeping it back. Add in a lot of streamlining and a few nifty new features, and voila, a record breaking success for WoW.
Well done, Blizzard! I salute you!
yup the first couple years were good. They then applied new cancers didn't they, phasing, lobbies, progressive nerfing of content, escalating power gains exasperating balancing issues, poor investment, designing the game to appear to conflicting demographics, extremely slow delivery rates for new content, simplifying and reducing skills sets over time rather than increasing them, it goes on.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
No doubt we will see hundreds more clones but Wow has not done a single thing to determine how i play and what type of game i play.I gave Wow the same chance i give every game,i very quickly realized it was not that good a game so i have basically ignored it since year 1.If every dev wants to keep throwing out cheap Wow clones,let them,i won't be supporting them.
Blizzard as a whole has always gone for cheap game design from it's Diablo to Starcraft to HS to HOTS they are all easy low budget games to make.Wow was by far their biggest effort but even then went low budget in every aspect of it's design.Yes even to this day ,instances are their thing,easier cheaper to make.
The MMO field is imo extremely hard to get into,IF doing it right and putting in a triple A effort.IMO all the games are either B rated C/D or complete freeware.
it is one thing to say "ok this is basically the highest tech we can use without alienating millions of game's or to say we have to keep graphics in check to again make the game viable for many,but when you drop 2-3 notches below that,you are just being cheap on EFFORT and on game design.
Meeeeeeh, I would argue that it's actually much easier to make a game that has mass appeal than to make something that is niche. For a niche game, you simply make the game you want. For mass appeal it's about balance between what you want and what the masses want. That's difficult. Hearthstone basically squished Magic in one fell swoop. They control RTS. The control isometric ARPG. If they hit the target with HOTS could they srupass DOTA? I wouldn't even talk about them surpassing LOL, but if they surpassed DOTA that would be something.
No doubt we will see hundreds more clones but Wow has not done a single thing to determine how i play and what type of game i play.I gave Wow the same chance i give every game,i very quickly realized it was not that good a game so i have basically ignored it since year 1.If every dev wants to keep throwing out cheap Wow clones,let them,i won't be supporting them.
Blizzard as a whole has always gone for cheap game design from it's Diablo to Starcraft to HS to HOTS they are all easy low budget games to make.Wow was by far their biggest effort but even then went low budget in every aspect of it's design.Yes even to this day ,instances are their thing,easier cheaper to make.
The MMO field is imo extremely hard to get into,IF doing it right and putting in a triple A effort.IMO all the games are either B rated C/D or complete freeware.
it is one thing to say "ok this is basically the highest tech we can use without alienating millions of game's or to say we have to keep graphics in check to again make the game viable for many,but when you drop 2-3 notches below that,you are just being cheap on EFFORT and on game design.
Blizzard puts out cheap, low effort, low budget, poorly designed products...
I think I have now heard literally EVERYTHING on MMORPG.com - thanks!
The only thing you got right was the mass market appeal - they want many people to play and enjoy their games. Guilty as charged! God forbid they want to A) make a wide audience happy and sustain their company and jobs
I wonder how many expensive, god-like effort, high budget, superbly designed games have been made for niche audiences that have been successful for those companies...
WoW collected some of the best elements of the genre, and cut out the cancers that were keeping it back. Add in a lot of streamlining and a few nifty new features, and voila, a record breaking success for WoW.
Well done, Blizzard! I salute you!
lmao, huh? New features? Name them, I dare you.
WoW brought NOTHING original to the table. And it collected a lot of the worst elements too. (EQ style raiding, linear tierred gear grind, instanced dungeons, shallow class system). It was basically EQ with the best bits AND the worst bits shaved off, leaving a great big boring nothing for most people.
People forget most of the success came from being the first big budget MMO with a multi million dollar ad budget from a beloved company and a 6 year dev time.
People forget most of the success came from being the first big budget MMO with a multi million dollar ad budget from a beloved company and a 6 year dev time.
Why wasn't SWTOR as successful then? If a big budget, beloved IP and company, and long dev time is all it takes - SWTOR should be #1!
Oh wait, SWTOR is one of the most profitable games in the world right now too... I guess there is something to that theory!
You know, it really doesn't sound odd at all that a good, well respected developer with a beloved IP actually makes good games with ample budget and dev time.
WoW collected some of the best elements of the genre, and cut out the cancers that were keeping it back. Add in a lot of streamlining and a few nifty new features, and voila, a record breaking success for WoW.
Well done, Blizzard! I salute you!
lmao, huh? New features? Name them, I dare you.
WoW brought NOTHING original to the table. And it collected a lot of the worst elements too. (EQ style raiding, linear tierred gear grind, instanced dungeons, shallow class system). It was basically EQ with the best bits AND the worst bits shaved off, leaving a great big boring nothing for most people.
People forget most of the success came from being the first big budget MMO with a multi million dollar ad budget from a beloved company and a 6 year dev time.
Brought better raiding to the table. Battlegrounds for balanced pvp. Made instanced dungeons because open world pve dungeons just turned into multiple hour waits or dealing with wipes because a group deeper in fucked up and trained you.
Instanced raids in general because Zergs happened all the time and you can't properly script a fight against a zerg, GW2 showcased this.
Yea all of those were pretty new features that WoW showcased. Even if instances were a thing before WoW, it wasn't used in quite the same way and to the same extent that WoW used it.
WoW is not to blame. It did what it was supposed to do ... obliterate the competition. It is what every company endeavors to do, and WoW did it in a big way.
If in your world destructive = open up the genre to a wide variety of people by increasing accessibility while showing other developers / publishers that MMO gaming doesn't have to be a niche genre, then yes, it has been quite destructive.
Yes, there's a lot of bad WoW clones. That's not Blizzard's fault, it's the fault of the people who made them in a half-assed attempt to lure people away from WoW and grab a piece of the MMO pie. There have also been some very good ones, some following WoW, some doing their own thing, and some with a mixture of both.
This is just more of the same BS rhetoric spewed forth by the doom and gloom crowd every day on this site, trying to convince us that their own sorry view of the genre should be shared by everybody.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa It was basically EQ with the best bits AND the worst bits shaved off, leaving a great big boring nothing for most people.
I don't know in what reality plane you live, you may be an alien or something, but here on earth, WoW has been a massive success blowing away any previous record made by any MMORPG before, being a massive, fun to play success for most people interested in MMORPGs.
You possibly have a major confusion problem between "what I like" and "what people like", and you tend to generalize "what I like" to the majority. Well, you are wrong, and may want to fix that.
Carrot-on-a-stick game design can certainly do that.
Without the market expansion, from the view of the oldschool segment not much would have changed.
Devs would still have targeted the greener pastures where the masses are.
Budgets would still have gotten bloated, people would still have gotten used to the higher production standards, targeting a smaller segment with a big budget title still wouldn't have been enticing.
While I applaud the effort, the fundamental basis for the argument is wrong.
WoW didn't do anything to kill the MMORPG genre. Quite the opposite really.
The real damage came from the shills trying to chase Blizzard's success by releasing unfinished, fundamentally flawed WoW clone + twist games.
Let WoW be WoW, to the gamers that want that kind of game and enjoy it - great! Have it it.
You want to compete with WoW?
Offer me something different.
Something I can't get in WoW.
Not something that just simply isn't as good as WoW.
Sorry to beat up your entire well thought out and written paper in about 100 words.
WoW doesn't have the worst community. It does have one of the largest and most diverse, and in that diversity there will be the good and the bad. The actual game design itself promotes both the positive and the negative, but that is more on the individual than anything else.
You can't blame WoW for society, and for gamers as a whole.
OMG, this is the best thing I have ever read. ^This and more of ^This.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I heard that WoW was single-handedly responsible for all the human trafficking plaguing the world. I also heard that it refuses to let food grow that could be used to feed millions of hungry people all over the world. I also heard that it won't bake cakes or pizzas for gay weddings.
WoW really IS the root of all evil...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
WoW collected some of the best elements of the genre, and cut out the cancers that were keeping it back. Add in a lot of streamlining and a few nifty new features, and voila, a record breaking success for WoW.
Well done, Blizzard! I salute you!
lmao, huh? New features? Name them, I dare you.
WoW brought NOTHING original to the table. And it collected a lot of the worst elements too. (EQ style raiding, linear tierred gear grind, instanced dungeons, shallow class system). It was basically EQ with the best bits AND the worst bits shaved off, leaving a great big boring nothing for most people.
People forget most of the success came from being the first big budget MMO with a multi million dollar ad budget from a beloved company and a 6 year dev time.
Brought better raiding to the table. Battlegrounds for balanced pvp. Made instanced dungeons because open world pve dungeons just turned into multiple hour waits or dealing with wipes because a group deeper in fucked up and trained you.
Instanced raids in general because Zergs happened all the time and you can't properly script a fight against a zerg, GW2 showcased this.
Yea all of those were pretty new features that WoW showcased. Even if instances were a thing before WoW, it wasn't used in quite the same way and to the same extent that WoW used it.
Yep.
It never ceases to amaze how people like Tibby here can go "If I don't like it, it's not a new feature!"
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
I haven't read everything, but I tend to agree with most points.
"The problem is they have no idea of what went before them and what we experienced. They will never know the thrill of earning the right to exploring new worlds and the pulse pounding feeling of risking everything by dying and possibly losing years of your characters life."
I agree with this because I don't think people who haven't played MMO pre-WOW understand this point.
When you ran through kithicor forest in Everquest, you felt fear, when you did some of the later raids in Gates, you could feel your heart bounce in your chest, there was a lot at stake, the game was more brutal and harder. The game made you care about your character and friends mattered.
Flat out lies. You ran the border lines and if you pulled aggro you went to the next border, no fuss no muss.
Raids were nothing but zergs with 0 challenge. You just kept throwing bodies at it till they died, yay loots.
The game didn't make you care about your character anymore than most games did, the game just made you take less risks solely because of the exp penalty and the possible loss of your loot if you didn't /loc where you died and lost your body.
There were low level leveling areas like High Hold Keep through Kithicor and also Riverdale was there, with a low level dungeon near it. A lot of people who ran through Kithicor at low level risked a lot, so they would wait at the zone-in until it was day time in game (when the most dangerous MOBs despawned) and then run the zoneline to HHK or Riverdale. At night time it was very dangerous, especially considering those players were often < level 20 and Kithicor was a level 40+ zone.
Not everyone had SoW and Levitation all the time there, and due to the design of the game some players could barely see there because they didn't have Infravision or Ultravision (i.e. Human and Dwarf characters).
Even then, we could use different examples...
I remember one of the best leveling spots I was shown was in the middle of the ocean. I was getting great XP there, until I died and had to get a Paladin to come help me get to my corpse (Rez me, cause XP loss :-P ). It took about 20 minutes there, but I made a friend that I stayed in touch with for over a year that day!
There was also this Iksar Necromancer named Nomadl that summoned my corpse for me when I first started playing and fell down the well in The dungeon off of the Commonlands (forget the name) and got killed by the skeletons down there (I was level 13, I almost can't believe I remember this stuff). It took me like an hour to find someone to help me get my corpse, and he offered to do it if I'd get the coffin for him. I *still* haven't forgotten his name... And that was almost 15 years ago!
The interesting thing is that most of my fondest memories from those older games were interactions with other players... Something I cannot really say the same for in the newer MMORPGs.
I do think that MMOs making the move to console has the potential to make them a bit more "social" again. Since a lot of the communications etc. is built into the core console services (XBL/PSN Voice Chat, Messaging, etc.).
WoW collected some of the best elements of the genre, and cut out the cancers that were keeping it back. Add in a lot of streamlining and a few nifty new features, and voila, a record breaking success for WoW.
Well done, Blizzard! I salute you!
lmao, huh? New features? Name them, I dare you.
WoW brought NOTHING original to the table. And it collected a lot of the worst elements too. (EQ style raiding, linear tierred gear grind, instanced dungeons, shallow class system). It was basically EQ with the best bits AND the worst bits shaved off, leaving a great big boring nothing for most people.
People forget most of the success came from being the first big budget MMO with a multi million dollar ad budget from a beloved company and a 6 year dev time.
Brought better raiding to the table. It's raiding was identical to EQ's raiding, as WoW's lead designers were all former EQ raid leaders. Nice try. Battlegrounds for balanced pvp. It was not the first game to have battlegrounds, nor would many agree that their version of battlegrounds were the best or balanced. WoW is a PvE game and the PvP portion always felt underdeveloped and unimportant. Made instanced dungeons because open world pve dungeons just turned into multiple hour waits or dealing with wipes because a group deeper in fucked up and trained you. Several games had instanced dungeons before WoW, and they were only necessary if your MMO was poorly designed like EQ. Which, WoW was, because it was basically EQ. DAoC never needed instanced dungeons, because there were never multiple hour waits because that's not how the loot system worked or the xp system.
Instanced raids in general because Zergs happened all the time and you can't properly script a fight against a zerg, GW2 showcased this. Not only was it not the first, second, third, or even fourth MMO to have instanced raids, it IS possible to have uninstanced and challenging raids, if the AI is dynamic enough. There were some raids in DAoC that only ever got completed once or twice ever on a server, and it wasn't because of some artificial instanced/gear limit like WoW has, it was because of the AI, and the players had to be at their best to get through it. Zerging never worked in that encounter. Stop pretending the dozens of pre WoW MMOs were all jsut like 1999 EQ.
Yea all of those were pretty new features that WoW showcased.
WoW collected some of the best elements of the genre, and cut out the cancers that were keeping it back. Add in a lot of streamlining and a few nifty new features, and voila, a record breaking success for WoW.
Well done, Blizzard! I salute you!
lmao, huh? New features? Name them, I dare you.
WoW brought NOTHING original to the table. And it collected a lot of the worst elements too. (EQ style raiding, linear tierred gear grind, instanced dungeons, shallow class system). It was basically EQ with the best bits AND the worst bits shaved off, leaving a great big boring nothing for most people.
People forget most of the success came from being the first big budget MMO with a multi million dollar ad budget from a beloved company and a 6 year dev time.
Brought better raiding to the table. Battlegrounds for balanced pvp. Made instanced dungeons because open world pve dungeons just turned into multiple hour waits or dealing with wipes because a group deeper in fucked up and trained you.
Instanced raids in general because Zergs happened all the time and you can't properly script a fight against a zerg, GW2 showcased this.
Yea all of those were pretty new features that WoW showcased. Even if instances were a thing before WoW, it wasn't used in quite the same way and to the same extent that WoW used it.
Yep.
It never ceases to amaze how people like Tibby here can go "If I don't like it, it's not a new feature!"
They put linear "levels" from other genres into a game that's supposed to be MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER. Kudos on that.
Comments
excellent contribution.
Wow biggest contribution was its first couple years of existence, it moved the genre on by a mile. Then the game changed hands and it slowly became the market leading game where the story is minimal investment and maximum profits, this is the market leader that shareholder point to when developers want to invest money in innovation and why hundreds of millinos was poured into shite like wildstar. The best of it is, because blizzard is blindly defended and because of their morals they will continue to suck away at their captured audiance, pumping out shitty expansion after expansion. That is the reality of WOW today, bravo.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Except the OP specifically doesn't blame WoW. They talk about WoW's legacy, and what its success lead to. He blames other devs and publishers, but it DID start with WoW.
The rapidly failing WoW clones, and all the studios and publishers pulling out of the MMO space speaks volumes for how much things have "improved".
WoW's so called legacy is not the fault of WoW. WoW did lead to anything. You're blaming shit that has nothing to do with WoW. When someone shoots and kills someone, you blame the person, not the gun manufacturer.
The failing WoW clones are failing because they cloned WoW and failed to be better than WoW. If you clone something, and it isn't better than the original, is it any surprise the clone fades away? No right? Is that the originals fault? No, its simply reality. And its the fault of the clone not being made well enough. Which is why they shouldn't be trying to clone in the first place and instead forge their own path. But the fact that this process isn't happening isn't WoW's fault which is what you and Kiyoris would have us believe.(same with OP)
yup its blizzard. as soon as a market leader with a captured market abuses its position and gets away with it then that sends a clear signal to the market.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
WoW collected some of the best elements of the genre, and cut out the cancers that were keeping it back. Add in a lot of streamlining and a few nifty new features, and voila, a record breaking success for WoW.
Well done, Blizzard! I salute you!
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
No one is saying it is WoW's fault that all the publishers forced all those other MMOs to be WoW clones. And all the other crap they happened. They simply identify WoW as the catalyst. You'd know that if you read it, or even my post, at all. But it seems you're skimming and then attacking.
No doubt we will see hundreds more clones but Wow has not done a single thing to determine how i play and what type of game i play.I gave Wow the same chance i give every game,i very quickly realized it was not that good a game so i have basically ignored it since year 1.If every dev wants to keep throwing out cheap Wow clones,let them,i won't be supporting them.
Blizzard as a whole has always gone for cheap game design from it's Diablo to Starcraft to HS to HOTS they are all easy low budget games to make.Wow was by far their biggest effort but even then went low budget in every aspect of it's design.Yes even to this day ,instances are their thing,easier cheaper to make.
The MMO field is imo extremely hard to get into,IF doing it right and putting in a triple A effort.IMO all the games are either B rated C/D or complete freeware.
it is one thing to say "ok this is basically the highest tech we can use without alienating millions of game's or to say we have to keep graphics in check to again make the game viable for many,but when you drop 2-3 notches below that,you are just being cheap on EFFORT and on game design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
When you identify something as the catalyst, you're saying thats what caused the situation to come to a head. In other words, saying its at fault.
yup the first couple years were good. They then applied new cancers didn't they, phasing, lobbies, progressive nerfing of content, escalating power gains exasperating balancing issues, poor investment, designing the game to appear to conflicting demographics, extremely slow delivery rates for new content, simplifying and reducing skills sets over time rather than increasing them, it goes on.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Meeeeeeh, I would argue that it's actually much easier to make a game that has mass appeal than to make something that is niche. For a niche game, you simply make the game you want. For mass appeal it's about balance between what you want and what the masses want. That's difficult. Hearthstone basically squished Magic in one fell swoop. They control RTS. The control isometric ARPG. If they hit the target with HOTS could they srupass DOTA? I wouldn't even talk about them surpassing LOL, but if they surpassed DOTA that would be something.
Crazkanuk
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Blizzard puts out cheap, low effort, low budget, poorly designed products...
I think I have now heard literally EVERYTHING on MMORPG.com - thanks!
The only thing you got right was the mass market appeal - they want many people to play and enjoy their games. Guilty as charged! God forbid they want to A) make a wide audience happy and
sustain their company and jobs
I wonder how many expensive, god-like effort, high budget, superbly designed games have been made for niche audiences that have been successful for those companies...
lmao, huh? New features? Name them, I dare you.
WoW brought NOTHING original to the table. And it collected a lot of the worst elements too. (EQ style raiding, linear tierred gear grind, instanced dungeons, shallow class system). It was basically EQ with the best bits AND the worst bits shaved off, leaving a great big boring nothing for most people.
People forget most of the success came from being the first big budget MMO with a multi million dollar ad budget from a beloved company and a 6 year dev time.
Why wasn't SWTOR as successful then? If a big budget, beloved IP and company, and long dev time is all it takes - SWTOR should be #1!
Oh wait, SWTOR is one of the most profitable games in the world right now too... I guess there is something to that theory!
You know, it really doesn't sound odd at all that a good, well respected developer with a beloved IP actually makes good games with ample budget and dev time.
That's kind of common sense isn't it?
Brought better raiding to the table. Battlegrounds for balanced pvp. Made instanced dungeons because open world pve dungeons just turned into multiple hour waits or dealing with wipes because a group deeper in fucked up and trained you.
Instanced raids in general because Zergs happened all the time and you can't properly script a fight against a zerg, GW2 showcased this.
Yea all of those were pretty new features that WoW showcased. Even if instances were a thing before WoW, it wasn't used in quite the same way and to the same extent that WoW used it.
WoW is not to blame. It did what it was supposed to do ... obliterate the competition. It is what every company endeavors to do, and WoW did it in a big way.
If in your world destructive = open up the genre to a wide variety of people by increasing accessibility while showing other developers / publishers that MMO gaming doesn't have to be a niche genre, then yes, it has been quite destructive.
Yes, there's a lot of bad WoW clones. That's not Blizzard's fault, it's the fault of the people who made them in a half-assed attempt to lure people away from WoW and grab a piece of the MMO pie. There have also been some very good ones, some following WoW, some doing their own thing, and some with a mixture of both.
This is just more of the same BS rhetoric spewed forth by the doom and gloom crowd every day on this site, trying to convince us that their own sorry view of the genre should be shared by everybody.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
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Carrot-on-a-stick game design can certainly do that.
Without the market expansion, from the view of the oldschool segment not much would have changed.
Devs would still have targeted the greener pastures where the masses are.
Budgets would still have gotten bloated, people would still have gotten used to the higher production standards, targeting a smaller segment with a big budget title still wouldn't have been enticing.
Business as usual, complaints as usual.
OMG, this is the best thing I have ever read. ^This and more of ^This.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I heard that WoW was single-handedly responsible for all the human trafficking plaguing the world. I also heard that it refuses to let food grow that could be used to feed millions of hungry people all over the world. I also heard that it won't bake cakes or pizzas for gay weddings.
WoW really IS the root of all evil...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Yep.
It never ceases to amaze how people like Tibby here can go "If I don't like it, it's not a new feature!"
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
There were low level leveling areas like High Hold Keep through Kithicor and also Riverdale was there, with a low level dungeon near it. A lot of people who ran through Kithicor at low level risked a lot, so they would wait at the zone-in until it was day time in game (when the most dangerous MOBs despawned) and then run the zoneline to HHK or Riverdale. At night time it was very dangerous, especially considering those players were often < level 20 and Kithicor was a level 40+ zone.
Not everyone had SoW and Levitation all the time there, and due to the design of the game some players could barely see there because they didn't have Infravision or Ultravision (i.e. Human and Dwarf characters).
Even then, we could use different examples...
I remember one of the best leveling spots I was shown was in the middle of the ocean. I was getting great XP there, until I died and had to get a Paladin to come help me get to my corpse (Rez me, cause XP loss :-P ). It took about 20 minutes there, but I made a friend that I stayed in touch with for over a year that day!
There was also this Iksar Necromancer named Nomadl that summoned my corpse for me when I first started playing and fell down the well in The dungeon off of the Commonlands (forget the name) and got killed by the skeletons down there (I was level 13, I almost can't believe I remember this stuff). It took me like an hour to find someone to help me get my corpse, and he offered to do it if I'd get the coffin for him. I *still* haven't forgotten his name... And that was almost 15 years ago!
The interesting thing is that most of my fondest memories from those older games were interactions with other players... Something I cannot really say the same for in the newer MMORPGs.
I do think that MMOs making the move to console has the potential to make them a bit more "social" again. Since a lot of the communications etc. is built into the core console services (XBL/PSN Voice Chat, Messaging, etc.).
Try again.
They put linear "levels" from other genres into a game that's supposed to be MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER. Kudos on that.