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If Vanguard is any Sort of Gauge for Pantheon...
ArtificeVenatus
Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
Then there is no context with which Pantheon will be anything but great.
Fact is, even with mob-aggro death when zoning, even with death by falling through the world/floor, even with the crash to desktop and freezes, Vanguard was still a great MMORPG. Fact is, even with a complete lack of ever fixing those issues (I would even go as far as to say SOE actually made those worse over the years), Vanguard was an MMORPG that lasted over 7 years... but people would continue to call that a failure. That is more than 7 years without a single real expansion, mind you.
What does this say about the outcome destined of Pantheon?
Even if Pantheon fails, we will at least have a great MMORPG for years.
What if it succeeds?...
Comments
I agree and VG took chances and did a lot of things right but it just wasn't implemented or managed properly. If VG had of had that extra love and attention from the early Beta stages, it would still be here today.
There are a lot of things from VG that I would personally like to see implemented into Pantheon too, there are also a lot of EQ mechanics and elements that will suit our game well, the difficulty lies in not only merging those mechanics and features into Pantheon but making them play nice together and balancing them out while also putting our own twist on things to make it suited to the Pantheon IP and not just a copy/paste of EQ or VG, it's harder than a lot of people think it is but I know the team and what they are capable of plus I can see first hand what they are doing so I am very confident that they will get it done, the work they have done so far is very exciting, I can't wait to release some more to the community!
I honestly cannot wait for Pantheon! Everquest and Vanguard were on a entirely different level in comparison to all the MMO's that have released since. Vanguard and Everquest both felt like you were in a world, you had a sense of danger, you had a sense of how massive everything was. You don't get any of those in the current iteration of mmo's which is truly sad.
I played Everquest 1 for 6-7 years and I loved absolutely every single second of it, even through the hellish epic 1.0 quests that involved a lot of camping. I remember every second of it and loved it! I truly felt like I was working towards something truly powerful that I would actually FEEL it effect my character in a big way. There is not a single thing in these mmo's now that gives you that feeling, nothing. Every thing is handed to you on a silver platter and epics are a dime a dozen in games. There's no sense of accomplishment at all anymore.
Vanguard further emphasized those feelings with its MASSIVE world, open world dungeons that I still to this day think are the best dungeons ever created, even if some of them were not populated or itemized, the scale and size of them being in the open world, going down into the terrain, having camping spots for groups, lots of named monsters to go after brought back that community feeling of getting to know people that EQ gave you. Vanguard even with all its bugs/problems was truly a masterpiece on so many levels that no other mmo has been able to capture. The size of the world was massive, each continent was truly unique and beautiful in its own way. I could go from Qalia(Desert continent) to Thestra(Largest continent) and feel an entirely different vibe. Thestra was beautiful, massive, the dungeons(Vol Tuniel or whatever its called) was truly amazing. Not only was it massive underground, it was beautiful. I remember so many moments on my monk pulling for groups in that dungeon(Another skill/feature that needs to be brought back is pulling for groups) I could go on and on and on about Vanguard. It truly was amazing and I really miss it even with all its problems, It was flatout amazing with what it had and what it could have had.
It's a shame the dark elf dungeon(forget the name) never saw the light of day. I know it had a huge dragon at the bottom and was massive. Somehow leaks(pictures) of inside were released and it was actually populated with mobs, dragon included but never was released publicly to play through. I forget the name of it but it was a dungeon/raid that was supposed to release when SoE took over but they didn't do jack shit to it.
If you guys make anything even remotely close to Vanguard and Everquest, my friends and I will be so happy to be in it that we would support it for a long time as we are dying for something similar to those two games. Every time we talk about mmo's we always mention EQ and Vanguard and how they just stood out in comparison to the other mmos out.
I found your post both refreshing and sobering. This forum has a way of making you out to be a crazy person for thinking such things.
The Pantheon community is full of people like you OP,... and me. It is so, dunno.... refreshing? Finally a crowd of like minded people that all seem to want the same stuff... and the devs wanting to deliver exatly that stuff, without compromises.
It sounds too good to be true. But i want to believe. There is not a single other MMO out there that has me excited.
Also, sad fact: The best "MMO news" apart from Pantheon? A new Everquest 1 progression server starting up this summer.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
We also cannot wait for you to release all those juicy bits of Pantheon heaven!!!!
I am so good, I backstabbed your face!
I dunno, I'd be much more enthusiastic if they could come up with a classic EQ progression server where they didn't have any of the new mechanics and crap that I feel like hurt the game. SOE/DBG version of a progression server is just the current game with content disabled. I've never really been a fan. Its nothing like the EQ I loved.
I heard 12-20 days until a new update from the team!
There is no need to scale my expectations at all, as my expectations are in terms of the character building and playing experience among others doing the same. My expectations would be more akin to realizing we might get a continent or less worth of actual quantity compared to Vanguard, but the quality on the other hand... What else will compare?
From that point, just take a look at EVE Online, there will likely be plenty of room for quantity in time...
Well, that's why I've been hanging out on Project 1999.
I honestly don't know how to set expectations. Yes, Vanguard most likely had a very large budget, but engines and tools have evolved and will no-doubt allow more to be done with fewer people. A look at the stuff they've done so far and itt is impressive given they are not a full time team. So I wouldn't expect Vanguard and they have been clear that Pantheon is a less ambitious project. However, if Pantheon can pull it off and make a good base on which to build who knows what it might ultimately evolve into.
VG had ~$30 Million budget.
No one on these forums knows our budget, what our goals are or what agreements we have in place.
There is nothing stopping us getting the same or more from an investor, so while I am always careful to manage expectations, I don't try to limit them when it is actually an achievable financial target either.
I don't think it would be a miracle at all, that word is used way too often and usually in the wrong context. "A miracle is an event believed to not be explicable by natural or scientific laws. Such an event may be attributed to a supernatural being (God or gods), a miracle worker, a saint or a religious leader." If you believe in the latter part of that description that is, I choose peer reviewed evidence personally.
$30+ million is a very achievable target for our company to make Pantheon:RotF but we would be perfectly fine with around half that with the technology and Unity 5 engine we have available to us compared to a hacked 2.5 Unreal Engine that VG was built on 8-13 years ago.
I obviously can't go into more financial details than that but I wanted to clear up the misconception that we are too small, struggling or incapable of achieving the same as VG did financially.
You just did your job. Very well actually. I am hyped now. Gonna go to your (still old!) webpage and will throw money at you.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
We appreciate the support a lot Rattenman, thank you and hopefully the new website will not be too far away either
Do people really read what they post?
Even if it fails we will have a great MMORPG? Please.. Vanguard was not ever a great game. Some people were so desperate for that type game , that they accepted it with all it's many faults.
More power to you that want that type of game.. but raise the bar for goodness sake. Having another failure limp along for a while then go away is not much to look forward to.
Good thing I am entitled to my own opinion as Vanguard WAS a great game for me. I only left when it was very clear that the game was essentially abandoned with no hope of new content or bug fixes. In fact even with the many bugs I still thoroughly enjoyed playing almost to its ultimate demise.
Playing alts and exploration are top on my personal list of game expectations and Vanguard did both very well.
If Pantheon starts with a foundation that is even close to what Vanguard offered Ill be one of the first to pay up to see it grow.
Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
Like many I liked VG even with all its pitfalls because as others put it,it was a world out there.VG for me is the only game where mounts really makes sense because of the huge World.There are many PvP focused game on the horizon and I think Pantheon can fill the spot of a good PvE only MMORPG and bringthe RPG side of MMO back.
Brad can be bad in managing but I trust the guy in building an amazing world with real Dungeons not just holes in the ground branded as Dungeons.
Will throw money to them right now? No! but I'm following them and if they make a good MMO,I'll buy it and subscribe and play for years.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
Do you read what is posted? Do you read what you replied to? Have fun with WoW.
Where was WoW mentioned? I didn't see it anywhere so who isn't reading?
No matter, I was in closed beta for VG and played for 9 months after release. I loved what VG "should" have been. What it was was a hot mess. The combat animations were stupid slow, the bugs, memory leaks, and lack of true support from SOE were all horrible, but all that is nothing compared to travesty that was Brad McFail's leadership & lack of management.
Now he pops up with another idea and people fall all over themselves. I can't put faith in him or his vision, not this time. I'll watch it from a distance. I'll watch it at launch and see if it is a "quality" game and I'll watch for 6 months or more to see if the bugs get fixed, new content is developed, and maybe, just maybe I'll give it a try.
I hope your self inflated hype for a game isn't turned into yet another massive letdown. Only time will tell. I hope you are all right I really do because Blizzard has done more to destroy the genre by bringing care bear hand holding and easy mode gameplay into it. It's time someone releases a game that will start the pendulum swinging back to where it was when the genre was great. I just don't believe this dude is that someone. Sorry.
I think the only way i can even remotely consider playing another game headed by Mr. McQuaid is if they eschew early access, have a true FREE open beta, and then release a complete game.
Vanguard had some nice ideas, but it was so poorly implemented, mismanaged, then forgotten about.
I dunno, i think Brad has a long road towards reconcilliation with VG players who were in the beta and were around for release.
I do miss my Raki.
Oh well i am sure i will keep lurking and watching this game, i just doubt i will put anything towards it till its good and out and the reviews are decent.
Lolipops !
The same place that it is mentioned that your reason for having joined mmorpg.com is ESO, and thus a good link to why you (and DarLorkar) have the opinions you have, and thus the reason for my reply in calling out nonsense.
Vanguard was everything that Everquest 2 should have been, and thus the reason SOE stepped into the VG picture to begin with. Given more time, even "Brad McFail's" hand would have likely sought to fix the game breaking issues. SOE had no intention of doing so, and no intention of expansions. Vanguard still lasted over 7 years, still 7 years with the game breaking bugs, and still 7 years without a single real expansion. *Bravo SOE*... right? It is more like, *Bravo McQuaid* or VG would have been buried sooner still, as all SOE did was keep the lights on.
Yes, he pops up and ought to be allowed a second chance. He does have a lot riding on Pantheon as far as his credibility in the industry goes, both as far as the playerbase is concerned and as far as any major company is likely concerned as well, and I am sure he recognizes that. Are you seriously going to sit and state that he does not deserve a second chance? Did he kill your dog? Did you find him in bed with your wife? Did he look up and tell you this is how you should do it? What is your reasoning? His "mistake" (aka Vanguard) was better than most people's successes.
It is funny you should bash one single member of the TEAM creating Pantheon, and then go on to bash Blizzard as well (nice attempt at hiding your true thoughts).
"Blizzard has done more to destroy the genre by bringing care bear hand holding and easy mode gameplay into it. It's time someone releases a game that will start the pendulum swinging back to where it was when the genre was great. I just don't believe this dude is that someone."
You do not honestly stand by these words you have stated here. If you did, then you would not be here defending nonsense posters to begin with. Add to that, if your words were true, you would recognize at least a chance of what you state you want in Pantheon. If you were mature, that would include even with McQuaid attached to Pantheon. So do not try to BS me at least, because I do see through it. Enjoy ESO.
I don't know if anything can ever scratch the itch that the original EQ or Vanguard did, but if I had to put money on any game...it would be this one. The biggest problem with the themepark games is how solo friendly they are. I want to be challenged to actually interact with other players, which 9/10 games these days no longer requires unless you are talking about a dungeon. Everquest required multiple players the majority of the time to kill SOLO mobs (unless you were a pet class or a twink). I admit, I most definitely do not have the huge amount of time to waste like I did back when I was in high school playing EQ after school every day and all day Saturday and Sunday, but that doesn't mean we have to make all new games so casual that grouping is no longer required. It's my biggest gripe in online games because it pretty much defies the point of having the game being played ONLINE, right? I get tired of single player games, the whole point of MMO's is to actually interact with other people. There have been games now that make world events automatically interactive (like GW2 for example) that give you experience for helping complete a world event, but the problem is you can STILL do it solo without ever speaking to another person. This might be acceptable to some people, but I crave FORCED interaction like we used to have back in the day.
I'm sick of having to rely on emulators of the old games to have the acceptable level of fun I used to have years ago. This game will hopefully fix that problem, but as we all know, it could take a very, very long time before we see anything from Pantheon.
Exactly.
Even though the blind fanboi's in this thread will pretend like you're a moron, 99% of planet earth agrees with you. Although I occasionally miss VG limping around, the fact is the game was absolutely dreadful. Every time someone acts like VG was a good game it hurts the case for Pantheon.
This team should be distancing themselves from VG in every way possible instead of shooting themselves in the foot with the mere mention of the game.
Your post makes me laugh. The fact that you typed that much and really said nothing of substance is very notable. If you still (after all these years) can't see why McQuaid is a terd then there is very little hope.
Again, please explain why SOE would buy a game only to let it die. It didn't happen and isn't reality. Vanguard was horribly amateurishly coded and SOE tried fixing it for years. Sadly all the effort yet put in was in vein as no one played the game.
So, no they didn't make an expansion for a game that provided them with very little to no income. The only thing they could do is put it in maintenance mode. If they wouldn't have done that VG would've never lasted 7 years. SOE is a business. I think most of you people forget that.
So, please tell me. What's it like being delusional?