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Is this why most sandbox games are niche or fail
TheScavenger
Member EpicPosts: 3,321
They focus too much on PvP. Or in Ryzom's case (the only PvE sandbox that is newer), too much on PvE.
In SWG. There was TONS of PvE content. Yet, I remember PvP being amazing and tons of fun. Now maybe rose colored glasses...but SOE didn't skimp out on PvE just because there was PvP. Nor did they skimp out on PvP because of the PvE
EVE kind of succeeds in that there is a huge PvE area, but PvP can still happen in it...its still sort of safe. Most people stay in highsec anyway. PvE is pretty fun in the harder stuff (wormholes are amazing), and PvP is of course just as epic.
Or going back a ways. Asheron's Call. Darktide, amazing server...yet amazing PvE that was far ahead of its time. Heck even the PvP was ahead of its time really.
AC while niche (sort of, it was pretty popular for its time), was relatively successful...it should have been more so really.
Now look at Darkfall or Mortal Online or the countless deathmatch MMO PvP clones. Sure they have subscribers...but nowhere close to SWG or EVE. Very niche MMOs.
And I realized. Every sandbox game that has seen success...focuses just as much on BOTH PvP and PvE.
And very few do that.
EVE, SWG, AC and...not sure what else that is released that isn't in early access/beta. Most I can think of is all PvP or the one PvE one, Ryzom.
Now...am I wrong in this? Or am I on to something?
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Comments
The reason games like MO and Darkfall have failed is because of terrible management of the game. Loads of bugs that went unfixed for many monhs (if they ever got fixed at all), no communication with the playerbase and what communication there was usually wound up being lies or unfulfilled promises, failure to deal with exploiters, failure to improve and enhance the game with new features content or fix things which were only partially implemented in a remotely timely manner, etc.
The appeal of those games was the PvP, and they had decent followings at one point which would have continued to grow if only they had been run properly. Companies like CCP didn't just sit back and let the potential of their games just go to shit out of pure incompetence or laziness. Meanwhile you have companies like Aventurine who let their game go to shit, tried relaunching it and started out managing it a bit better, but then fell back into the same old habits. At some point they tried to turn things around again but it seems to have been too little too late.
It's pretty much down to the PVP ful loot. People's time investment is open to exploits and grief in today’s online gaming environment of paid hacks and communities geared towards exploiting & griefing starts a steady decline to happen as people get fed up of being farmed by those exploiting or hacking, or just being vastly out numbered by a zerg Clan that loots everything and blocks off resource areas. SWG got it right by allowing no loot of gear, but he gear wears and tears in an opt in faction pvp system. That the one change they need to do, all wearable gear is not lootable, only what's in the pack. Semi loot system would go a long way in a sandbox PVP MMO RPG.
Ryzom has several problems, but I don't think its focus on PvE is one of them. It does PvE quite badly, but it's not bad because it's PvE; it's bad because the whole combat paradigm is terribly boring, and also because the game lacks story and doesn't replace it with anything like pet capturing, house building, crop growing, or minigames.
I'd also consider Wurm and Xsyon to be PvE sandboxe, at least on their PvE servers.
Pretty much this. Exploiting and harasment by (zerg) guilds. And without a clearly defined (criminal) ruleset on PvP/PK or the total lack of it, 'bad players' can continue on their exploits and harasments. One of the reason I'm not playing the full-loot sandbox games and prefer Lineage II (semi-sandbox) and EVE online over them.
Darkfall had lots of PVE a lot of the game revolved around PVE.. MO not so much.. Either way they are PVP mmos and thats why people paly them. Just because you dont like PVP mmos does not mean there is not a market for them.. sure they will never have millions of people playing them even if it was a perfect game with no bugs or balance issues but they will still have people palying them.
Just because they dont have millions of people playing does not mean they are a failed game, companies who make these types of games know full well the amount of people that want that type of game.
So yes you are wrong because not everyone likes the same things.
Myself I only play open world full loot pvp mmorpgs I get bored very fast of other mmos..
It's usually one of 3 things.
1. The devs fall into the trap of sandbox means the players make all the content, and the devs put very little content in. This ends of being long long long grinds which gets tiring. Sooner or later they will figure out that putting in quests and escorts and little rides here and there... does not take anything away from any of the sandbox, exploring, roaming, building... features that were there before the quests were in. In fact it give more options which is more freedom which is what many people believe is what sandbox means.
2. This is not just sandbox - low budget and can't get the stability or quality people want and doesn't have the budget to last the years needed to polish and add things like Eve did.
3. Again not exclusive to sandbox. They go the FFA PVP route because see number one, they don't put in content and believe the players will make/be all the content. Which turns into a grind or gank fest.
I disagree, they fail because PVP is not content. Games like Darkfall are shallow and meaningless after a few months. PVP is considered endgame and for an MMORPG, endgame can not be PVP to be successful though EVE is. (and dont gt me started on that game) Once you go up to a lifeless, dull faced NPC to do one quest, you've done them all. If all you have to do is play/solo the game to succeed, then it is not really a game at all. To me a game is a challenge against an opponent. Not something that you win just because you play it. And that is what most MMORPGs are right now. F2P, B2P, Sub, whatever there is little content, PVP, Cash shops, dull, lifeless quests, simple and small.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
you are wrong.
They don´t focus on PvP, they ARE PvP because players exist in a world of competing with each other.
Be a crafter, there will be other people hunting the ressources, you will encounter them, they will beat you or you will beat them.
Sorry mate but player competition is exactly what makes a sandbox. Scratch PVP out and put it in some BS arena and you got yourself a theme park.
Personally I only think Minecraft is as successful as it is is because it's not an MMO. It's a single player game with multiplayer features.
@OP Didn't SWG have a PvP flagging system? You could actually go anywhere and not engage in pvp at all. You didn't have to worry about being ganked/attacked.
Minecraft is a single player with some multiplayer features.
Make Minecraft an MMO with full loot PvP and lets see how popular it is then.
Originally posted by Xiaoki
^ This.
I agree that the focus too much on PvP however I dont agree that they fail
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I think that the concept of sandbox games, in general, are niche. I don't think it has anything to do with the type of gameplay. I think there are a few factors which contribute to that fact waaaaaaay more.
1) It takes a special kind of person to want to play out their life as an innkeeper or a blacksmith or a gardener.
2) The story is what YOU make of it. You're not guided on rails. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just requires that someone be creative and explore and talk to NPCs or other people, so they can find out where the yellow exclamation marks setting is.
3) Progression is just..... less satisfying. That's a massive generalization, I know, but themeparks tend to set off fireworks whenever you level up, you know, cuz it's a race, whereas sandboxes focus on less tangible progression.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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What's funny is that you'll mention WoW clones failing but ignore the heaping mound of rotting corpses that are Minecraft clones. As far as the themepark vs sandbox comparison, you might as well be saying, "Walmart has 1 million complaints annually and Iowa Jim's Hardware Store has 3 complaints per year, therefore Iowa Jim's is significantly better than Walmart"
Sorry, but you've got to learn about context. Also, I'd be interested to know how you measure success. I can probably count a baker's dozen of games that are highly successful, off the top of my head.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Well OP, the Repopulation looks like it will have a focus on PvE and PvP...there ya go. Problem solved.
I have no answers as to why there are so few sandboxes. I crave the freedom, risk vs reward and being treated like an adult that I get from games such as Darkfall. I really don't understand why so many others don't, but they apparently want to be led around on a linear rail from NPC to NPC being ordered around. I can't last more than one day in a linear quest hub themepark after playing my more prefered games like EQ1 and DFUW. I was even fine with GW2 as I skipped the story part and just roamed around doing whatever DE's I wanted to.
I disagree,SOE did skimp out on entire effort.Everyone that makes simple games just dots down some noc's hand out some quests,you kill said targets,gain xp rinse repeat.It doesn't really matter how you disguise your game or what you claim your game does different,bottom line is that it plays the same.
What separates quality form same old is SYSTEMS and DEPTH in those systems.I can point to even the simplest one and that is currency.Most games just have mobs or quests hand over currency and you spend it,,woopty do ,nice effort .../not.I call that lazy and cheap game design.There is so much more that can be done with currency including various types of currency.
Same with gear and rewards,they are almost always so static,receive your reward,thanks for coming out,...NEXT.
it is just like making quests,how many have we seen that have one simple route,go kill 10 bears,bring me back 5 skins.The better quests involve interaction,thinking,various chains/directions to go in,different locations,puzzles etc etc.
First off we can't really use the term Fail,imo i see games making tons of money that do not deserve to be,so what is fail?To me they have failed the genre/Industry by leeching money from a poorly designed game but others would say,oh no they make 50 million a year,the game MUST be great.
You can even draw that argument with SWG for example,it never had 1 million players,but MANY feel it was for them the best game ever.Then you can say it did MORE as a game than say maybe the biggest money maker WOW,so which game is really the fail?A game can't fail,it is just a bunch of code,however a developer can fail via money or negative feedback but has nothing to do with the quality of the game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I don't think that's what current players want.
Even old MMOs had something like that. In UO the economy was driven by the players either through crafting or killing monsters.
In EQ most of the money can from selling your items to vendors. You would kill something and then sell it to an NPC for a certain amount of cash.
This has been taken further in other games I've played where you can only sell certain items to certain vendors who would realistically want said item.
Most people are probably not going for that kind of realism. Most would probably complain that it is a waste of time to have to find the right vendor.
thing is this whole 'sandbox games fail' is pretty much a myth.
There are several things to keep in mind.
1. many sandbox games last longer than AAA games.
2. many sandbox games have hugely small budget so if a AAA company was to invest the same into a sandbox games as they did a non-sandbox game given item 1. it could be a huger eye opener for a lot of people.
3. many people mistake 'success' with 'marketing dollars'. Kind of like the guy driving the Porsche, he might look successful but in reality he might be buried in debt. So just because a company spends millions of dollars that you see and it makes you think they are a success it doesnt mean they actually are.
4. So to wrap up all of it. Sandbox games usually last long, surivie with nearly zero marketing budget, and likely make more money per developer than AAA games.
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Its bad for player driven sandbox economies tho, you should be selling that stuff to other players instead of NPCs. Mobs should drop crafting mats, currency and special items wanted by the players (like gear upgrades, enhancements, etc). It helps having regional resources and no fast travel, so transporting resources across map to other places where its scarce gives high profits.
there are servers of minecraft with over 1500 players online.. hardly you can call that multiplayer features
Minecraft vision was indeed single player tho.. but it evolved defo into a mmo..
To me minecrafts success can be summarized like this.
What crafting/building game has the AAA market EVER built in the history of their existence?
People where just waiting to build something...:)
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please please please for the love of god lets not start this 'oh game X is not an MMO sandbox becuase it doesnt have X number of multiplayers'''
please lets just not go down that train wreck.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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