I have been talking about the wasteland effect that F2P has on communities for years.
The model creates a transient non invested player base with a tourist mentality, and this of course creates toxic no consequence behaviours.
F2P is terrible for communities.
F2P games are not something we should be celebrating
Indeed.
What is EVE's excuse then? Sorry, but you're basically using the whole "blame the parent" mentality.
Are the parent's never to blame then?
EvE is a unique animal culturally because of various reasons. I never use exceptions to examine rules.
F2P isn't the only factor in creating toxic communities, I should have said that, I usually do, but is is an important one. A huge one.
Simply put, it helps to destroy peer policing.
I'm not even sure you could measure this in any sort of objective way. First of all, there are so few P2P games that the sampling isn't even valid. If you did find a way to actually measure that, though, it might be interesting and you'd probably find very similar numbers.
You say that we can't measure it in any way in an effort to discredit my point, then you end on telling me that we'd probably find very similar numbers, even though you clearly admit that you have no basis to say that, to support yours.
Well, based on that, and the fact that I knew you'd probably say something like that, I did some searches of some popular P2P and F2P MMO forums. Here's what I found:
Marker
WoW
EVE
STO
LOTRO
TERA
LOL
threads
7420000
4550000
1710000
436000
450000
11000000
idiot
19000
23300
7470
1620
7610
69500
retard
3940
4260
1
1
2300
7170
dumbass
3390
1000
2320
133
815
10700
Total
26330
28560
9791
1754
10725
87370
Ratio
281.8078
159.3137
174.6502
248.5747
41.95804
125.9013
This data was generated using Google site search, and the indexes represents the raw (no term) pages indexed. WoW is, also, only the US wow forums. The Ratio is the number of posts per "toxic marker". So WoW really isn't too shabby. TERA is, by far, the worst, but could be anomalous. Some of the longer-standing games are more tame. I added in LOL as a baseline community that most people would agree is toxic.
Anyway, as you can see, the type of game has little bearing, it would seem. Obviously the data isn't conclusive, but anyone wanting to continue and expand is more than welcome to.
I have been talking about the wasteland effect that F2P has on communities for years.
The model creates a transient non invested player base with a tourist mentality, and this of course creates toxic no consequence behaviours.
F2P is terrible for communities.
F2P games are not something we should be celebrating
Indeed.
What is EVE's excuse then? Sorry, but you're basically using the whole "blame the parent" mentality.
Are the parent's never to blame then?
EvE is a unique animal culturally because of various reasons. I never use exceptions to examine rules.
F2P isn't the only factor in creating toxic communities, I should have said that, I usually do, but is is an important one. A huge one.
Simply put, it helps to destroy peer policing.
I'm not even sure you could measure this in any sort of objective way. First of all, there are so few P2P games that the sampling isn't even valid. If you did find a way to actually measure that, though, it might be interesting and you'd probably find very similar numbers.
You say that we can't measure it in any way in an effort to discredit my point, then you end on telling me that we'd probably find very similar numbers, even though you clearly admit that you have no basis to say that, to support yours.
Well, based on that, and the fact that I knew you'd probably say something like that, I did some searches of some popular P2P and F2P MMO forums. Here's what I found:
Marker
WoW
EVE
STO
LOTRO
TERA
LOL
threads
7420000
4550000
1710000
436000
450000
11000000
idiot
19000
23300
7470
1620
7610
69500
retard
3940
4260
1
1
2300
7170
dumbass
3390
1000
2320
133
815
10700
Total
26330
28560
9791
1754
10725
87370
Ratio
281.8078
159.3137
174.6502
248.5747
41.95804
125.9013
This data was generated using Google site search, and the indexes represents the raw (no term) pages indexed. WoW is, also, only the US wow forums. The Ratio is the number of posts per "toxic marker". So WoW really isn't too shabby. TERA is, by far, the worst, but could be anomalous. Some of the longer-standing games are more tame. I added in LOL as a baseline community that most people would agree is toxic.
Anyway, as you can see, the type of game has little bearing, it would seem. Obviously the data isn't conclusive, but anyone wanting to continue and expand is more than welcome to.
Why is that? you think a game should die off even a small chance of the game making it?
Yes the game should die off if it cannot make it as a P2P game period. Too many MMOs spend Hundreds of Millions of Dollars on building an MMO to compete with getting WOW like Subs. Getting WOW Like subs is not something that is normal in MMOs, IT CAN HAPPEN however it should not be your Business Model. If you need to go F2P before your game is 5+ years old which over all is a good MMO run than your game should just shut down.
Why do you ask should they shut down? MMORPGs are different than other games, their is maintenance and Operational cost associated with an MMO as well as on going Development. If a game MUST have a cash shop to survive in its first 5 to 6 years than that game is going to spend all of its time making players pay more than $15 a month and spend almost all of its time developing content in chunks that players will spend more on over the course of a year or two than if the person paid $300 in subs for 2 years, Box and Expansion. I know I done it and all of my friends done that, I know few people who spend nothing however they wouldnt spend money on any game and players like my do not care to subsidize players who do not want to get a job to pay for their hobby.
Then add to that while people call F2P Paid for convenience I call that bullshit its P2W end of story. If you can use money to get around spending time in game and completing your goal then its P2W. It does not matter what forum it is, XP boost, Boots to level 90, More ability to make top level crafted items, all this is a load of crap and is only driven because the MMO population which the genera was never meant to support hundreds of MMOs and spread out as thin as it is. Now I can understand cash shops like WOW before Power leveling items and FFXIV, where its rename or chance your character looks or race, or a mount. All of that can go to buying NEW hardware or paying for customer service and little development time needs to be spent on it vs endless hours spent on it vs the game.
If me games that go F2P should not die off, P2P is not a modal is going work all the time this days of age, yes to many mmo spend hundreds of millions to compete a mmo like wow, but we as player are looking at a mmo if it's not wow we not going pay $15 so the modal it self fail on it's self, so we can blame the dev and the players on the P2P not working like it use to been.
What should die off is the P2W aspect thats in all type of mmo, if you have the money real or in game, you can buy your self power with in it, then working for it in a path thats not gated.
I have been talking about the wasteland effect that F2P has on communities for years.
The model creates a transient non invested player base with a tourist mentality, and this of course creates toxic no consequence behaviours.
F2P is terrible for communities.
F2P games are not something we should be celebrating
Indeed.
What is EVE's excuse then? Sorry, but you're basically using the whole "blame the parent" mentality.
Are the parent's never to blame then?
EvE is a unique animal culturally because of various reasons. I never use exceptions to examine rules.
F2P isn't the only factor in creating toxic communities, I should have said that, I usually do, but is is an important one. A huge one.
Simply put, it helps to destroy peer policing.
I'm not even sure you could measure this in any sort of objective way. First of all, there are so few P2P games that the sampling isn't even valid. If you did find a way to actually measure that, though, it might be interesting and you'd probably find very similar numbers.
You say that we can't measure it in any way in an effort to discredit my point, then you end on telling me that we'd probably find very similar numbers, even though you clearly admit that you have no basis to say that, to support yours.
Well, based on that, and the fact that I knew you'd probably say something like that, I did some searches of some popular P2P and F2P MMO forums. Here's what I found:
Marker
WoW
EVE
STO
LOTRO
TERA
LOL
threads
7420000
4550000
1710000
436000
450000
11000000
idiot
19000
23300
7470
1620
7610
69500
retard
3940
4260
1
1
2300
7170
dumbass
3390
1000
2320
133
815
10700
Total
26330
28560
9791
1754
10725
87370
Ratio
281.8078
159.3137
174.6502
248.5747
41.95804
125.9013
This data was generated using Google site search, and the indexes represents the raw (no term) pages indexed. WoW is, also, only the US wow forums. The Ratio is the number of posts per "toxic marker". So WoW really isn't too shabby. TERA is, by far, the worst, but could be anomalous. Some of the longer-standing games are more tame. I added in LOL as a baseline community that most people would agree is toxic.
Anyway, as you can see, the type of game has little bearing, it would seem. Obviously the data isn't conclusive, but anyone wanting to continue and expand is more than welcome to.
I like your style.
edit: Your graph is missing "fanboi", though.
I'll get right on the graph. First, though, I've got to figure out how I can move this into a python script so I can scale this. Then we'll worry about graphs. Maybe even plot the decline of human decency.
The community here ARE MOSTLY PLAYERS LOOKING FOR A FREE GAME TO PLAY. After all, if you have no money and your a struggling collage student, or a teenager where dad will not fork over the credit card.....Well, they have no choice but to play games that are FREE.
When our forum polls indicate that most here are over 30, I have have to ask - what data are you basing that on? Have you really reached the point of just making stuff up to insult people who like something different than you? If so, that's pretty sad.
FREE-TO-PLAY IS KILLING OFF MMO'S.....It's a fact get used to it !!!!
There is no data on anything....Get use to that too !!!!
You can't run a poll here, because most here are looking for a free game.....That's something you'll have to get used to also !!!
FREE-TO-PLAY IS KILLING OFF MMO'S.....It's a fact get used to it !!!!
Wait ... what?
Didn't many MMOs convert to F2P and survive longer? F2P is not killing off MMOs ... it is letting MMOs survive longer. If they die, it is because players prefer to play other types of games, or other entertainment.
I'm surprised by a question like this. There are legions of posts lamenting the rise of the F2P model. The anti F2P crowd is a very vocal group.
My personal feeling is that anytime you lower the bar to entry, you allow a greater number of entrants, and thus your 'rif raf' pool becomes higher. Free = large rif raf pool, $10 sub = less rif raf pool, $100 = a small rif raf pool. That's not to say that because you can afford 100 you can't be rif raf, I'm just saying the potential pool is smaller.
In addition, I would submit, that people who have a vested interested in the game by paying a subscription, are less prone to being rif raf.
I have been talking about the wasteland effect that F2P has on communities for years.
The model creates a transient non invested player base with a tourist mentality, and this of course creates toxic no consequence behaviours.
F2P is terrible for communities.
F2P games are not something we should be celebrating
Indeed.
What is EVE's excuse then? Sorry, but you're basically using the whole "blame the parent" mentality.
Are the parent's never to blame then?
EvE is a unique animal culturally because of various reasons. I never use exceptions to examine rules.
F2P isn't the only factor in creating toxic communities, I should have said that, I usually do, but is is an important one. A huge one.
Simply put, it helps to destroy peer policing.
I'm not even sure you could measure this in any sort of objective way. First of all, there are so few P2P games that the sampling isn't even valid. If you did find a way to actually measure that, though, it might be interesting and you'd probably find very similar numbers.
You say that we can't measure it in any way in an effort to discredit my point, then you end on telling me that we'd probably find very similar numbers, even though you clearly admit that you have no basis to say that, to support yours.
Well, based on that, and the fact that I knew you'd probably say something like that, I did some searches of some popular P2P and F2P MMO forums. Here's what I found:
Marker
WoW
EVE
STO
LOTRO
TERA
LOL
threads
7420000
4550000
1710000
436000
450000
11000000
idiot
19000
23300
7470
1620
7610
69500
retard
3940
4260
1
1
2300
7170
dumbass
3390
1000
2320
133
815
10700
Total
26330
28560
9791
1754
10725
87370
Ratio
281.8078
159.3137
174.6502
248.5747
41.95804
125.9013
This data was generated using Google site search, and the indexes represents the raw (no term) pages indexed. WoW is, also, only the US wow forums. The Ratio is the number of posts per "toxic marker". So WoW really isn't too shabby. TERA is, by far, the worst, but could be anomalous. Some of the longer-standing games are more tame. I added in LOL as a baseline community that most people would agree is toxic.
Anyway, as you can see, the type of game has little bearing, it would seem. Obviously the data isn't conclusive, but anyone wanting to continue and expand is more than welcome to.
I like your style.
edit: Your graph is missing "fanboi", though.
I'll get right on the graph. First, though, I've got to figure out how I can move this into a python script so I can scale this. Then we'll worry about graphs. Maybe even plot the decline of human decency.
The chart is a cute idea and I think MOBAs bring nastier words just because their gameplay is combative, of course their speech will be - that's their sense of community is competition. The person who responded to my request for community building qualities only listed those "features" from free to play games for building communities, hosting tournaments and being competitive. So yeah, we know that some of the MOBA people aren't really MMO people, they are FPS people who have lost their way. They think MMO means online and that PVP MMO is the same as MOBA. Community to them is aggression and competition and a cash shop in a free game ties right into buying power or beauty. It's a keen fit.
I too look at forums to watch player sentiment or general intelligence around the groups. Many free to play forums have a derrrr factor - like Archeage. When I go there I expect to not encounter words over high school English. When I go to ESO forums even though they went buy to play, the posters do have college oriented discussion often. Long drawn out thoughts which take time to read and more "big words".
The problem though in this test is that they aren't all moderated by the same staff. And some have unmanageable amounts of participants so I would expect firstly that the higher the population - the more prevalence of snide that goes through unnoticed by a mod making it into search results.
The second issue is of course that intelligent people can be insulting and childish in much more proper or dignified ways. If I call someone dull instead of an idiot - that can slide by because I wasn't ghetto about it or used a clinical term. My brother and I used to play a game called make me cry. You could only insult each other without using curse words. It became pretty creative because your goal was to tear the person down without using such mundane easy words as stupid. You had to get to the heart of their inadequacies and really tear into them personally. That's why people can overlook generic insults like *itch or *unt, that's not personal enough to hurt someone. You want to hurt someone you tap into what they think they are doing right and show them it's wrong and an illusion in their head when they call it right. I blame that game on watching too much Comedy Central lol
Popular too can mean popular for different reasons. WOW is like a rite of passage. Everyone plays it or has played it. If you call yourself a gamer at some point someone will suggest that you should have played WOW. Minecraft I think is reaching that status too though I haven't played it. That's why MS bought it, they saw that mass appeal.
I like to search games on pay to win too. That I think has given me insight on sentiment. I believe that people have to want to stop liking free to play games for them to go away and that means they need to see why they are detrimental.
Still though. I've yet to see people point out ways that free to play games build community. The only person who attempted to address that suggested that they create competitive communities, exactly what I say is detrimental. If I look at everyone as my enemy in the real world I'd be called paranoid. If I do it in my MMO all of a sudden it's a community?
Also too, all those MOBA / FPS lovers who try to convert MMO games to be more competitive with cash shops negate all the things lots of us liked about playing the games. Things like entering a secret world and exploring it. Maybe catching someone role playing in a corner - that's the real player generated content. It's like you encountered Frodo right there and that mofo is going on a mission right about now. They are planning it out. Sure, no one will make a blockbuster movie about it but there it is happening in front of you, live on the screen. That sort of community versus this tourney stuff is miles from each other.
Who forgot that these games have RPG in them. If I people watch someone on the street living their life I'm nosy. If I do it in a game, I may just get an invite sent to me. That's the best way to join a guild I think is to have adventured together and found the company enjoyable. If I'm not hustling in a competitive game, I'm not winning.
Smelling the roses and logging in to do nothing but chat - yeah that's something for the sub games because the people already paid to be there, not for the free games where you play so many that you have to decide what to play based on competitive goal setting. Smelling the roses isn't going to happen because you have too many to play and get to. That games list up there is showing over 800 games right now. Imagine if you tried to play them all. Free to play says - sure play them all. I say still that you are spreading yourself thin. Your personality, your ability to contribute and all the things you used to give to one game now go to more. It's like polyamory - how can you equally love 10 people romantically because if you have 10 pieces of your heart in 10 places, everyone only gets 1/10th of you.
I have never understood those people who say - when I paid a sub for a game, I felt like I had to login to get my monies worth. Wait... you didn't WANT to login? Why are you playing an MMO again?
We know ways sub games built community. It's what made free to play games become rampant. They stood on the shoulders of giants - those sub games. They even took from sub games and said - you want to grind - fine, you play for free - you want to buy and bypass grind - fine, you pay. Free games stepped in and found community from those playing sub games. What I want to see is how they nurture that because sub games did. If they don't nurture it and instead their goals are to pit everyone against each other in price based competition buying these games in pieces then it's not wise to keep acting like they have no impact.
If you destroy a building one brick at a time instead of hitting it with a wrecking ball, you still tore that thing down. I keep seeing free to play / aka cash shops tearing this whole thing down. And people are just saying back, well it's just a brick, not a whole building getting destroyed. It's the concept that if you aren't building you are either stagnant or destroying a scene. The same way we think of ourselves and building ourselves personally like constantly learning or saying I know enough I'll just stop thinking now. If you neglect shearing a yard and maintaining grass, doesn't it turn back into a forest.
What is free to play "building" I'll throw out for the upteenth time. What does it bring positive to any community because what I note repeatedly is competition based on social classes or addictive personalities. How can we continue to be party to what exists in the real world and call it "something to explore" or "something different" than real life. If I want to compete with people over what I buy, I don't have to enter a game to do it. I can live real life for that. What about all those moral things related to MMO questing and the lessons like the end of a cartoon. How does all that stuff dissolve away when the cash shop comes a calling. I never knew a hero to be the person who bought their fame. Yet, it's for sale these days.
You wanted to know a game without a cash shop - Ryzom is one. Go look at their forum and see how community based they are in comparison to others. There is a striking difference in niche games and their communities compared to popular games. I think we all know that trolls need attention so yeah, mo' people - mo' problems. http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=forum&show_shard=103&language=en
Nice post! It actually reads well.
I don't think that F2P necessarily does anything to "build community". However, I don't think that P2P games do anything, either. Actually, I'm not certain that it's the fault of the games or the communities themselves, either. I think it probably has more to do with time. I'd go as far as to say that people aren't interested in communities. Remember, back in the early 2000s there weren't things like social media. At least not the way people do it today. I feel like MMORPGs filled some sort of gap, a social void. Now, well, we just don't need that. So, stripped down, MMORPGs are really just time wasters wrapped in a social networking blanket. Always have been. That's not to say they aren't compelling. Some lore is also better than others. However, there isn't that same expressed interest in the social aspects. Us "old timers" might find it fun to play with others, but I feel like the 30+ crowd is the last bastion of the social MMORPG crowd. Basically, everything is horrible now, not excluding P2P. If I went one evening in WoW without seeing "anal [something]" in general chat, it would be rare.
That being said, it's the same reason I feel like games like P99 are going to be really good social experiences. Nobody wants to play a game that old, except people who played it back in the day.
As far as cash shops go. I think it's a necessary evil for games these days. Take a look at the latest P2P releases. Even blockbuster games (like SWTOR or ESO) would have been dead within a year or a little over that. Personally, as long as the don't throw best in slot gear behind a payment barrier, I think it's fine. They need to make money. People complain about these things being available in cash shops, but fact is it's always been available.I remember when you could buy in-game items on eBay!!! Powerleveling, gold, items, entire accounts!!! All available online and are just a search away. So why the big fuss? What? Now that money can go towards the ACTUAL game? I'm cool with it.
edit: oh yeah, and Ryzom is actually interesting. I looked at it a while ago because I heard it was open source development. Interesting idea. With that and P99, we might actually begin to see these types of things open up! Never know!
Why is that? you think a game should die off even a small chance of the game making it?
Free to play is not correct.
You get shut out of vital content or additions you need to be playing the game properly.
Adding to that they use this version to spam players with ads to full subs and cashshops ingame too.
F2P is just a permanent limited trial, holding you back and constantly reminding you how much better you would be off when buying the full package/full subscriptions.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
The community here ARE MOSTLY PLAYERS LOOKING FOR A FREE GAME TO PLAY. After all, if you have no money and your a struggling collage student, or a teenager where dad will not fork over the credit card.....Well, they have no choice but to play games that are FREE.
When our forum polls indicate that most here are over 30, I have have to ask - what data are you basing that on? Have you really reached the point of just making stuff up to insult people who like something different than you? If so, that's pretty sad.
FREE-TO-PLAY IS KILLING OFF MMO'S.....It's a fact get used to it !!!!
There is no data on anything....Get use to that too !!!!
You can't run a poll here, because most here are looking for a free game.....That's something you'll have to get used to also !!!
Wow, so many assertions, so few actualities.
You should probably take a peek out the window and make sure the sky isn't falling.
If you just go by competition alone it is the backbone of developing good gaming instincts ,etiquette, sportsmanship and other qualities which you need as you grow up which is why we compete in school. It is to teach us good qualities in part.
However this aspect has become corrupted by greed,envy,jealousy and the spirit to win at all costs. Competition alone though is not a bad thing and when we compete we learn more about the game and our opponents. Not all aspects of an MMORPG is about just working together to achieve a common goal some aspects are always about competition. We compete to see who will become the leader of the class in the guild or an officer. People participate based on their ability to lead and even there we see a competition and of course guild first is all about competitions. This existed even in Everquest when guilds fought to kill dragons first on a server.
I really do not see the point of this thread. It will not change what has happened. The author and a few others need to move on and accept the change in the landscape and no amount of whining about the change is going to make it go their way. Perhaps instead telling us to deal with it the people still bellyaching should practice what they preach.
FREE-TO-PLAY IS KILLING OFF MMO'S.....It's a fact get used to it !!!!
Wait ... what?
Didn't many MMOs convert to F2P and survive longer? F2P is not killing off MMOs ... it is letting MMOs survive longer. If they die, it is because players prefer to play other types of games, or other entertainment.
Agree and does help that mmo that survive longer to rethink there action that worked and what didn't work gives them time to fix things even if takes longer to do it.
it simple just play a sub game and ignore the rest. That is what I do.
I tell that to people that hate f2p, just ignore what f2p games that are out there, but there can't they will rage about it how much is p2w when they don't even play it.
it simple just play a sub game and ignore the rest. That is what I do.
I tell that to people that hate f2p, just ignore what f2p games that are out there, but there can't they will rage about it how much is p2w when they don't even play it.
That's probably because they recognize the fact that even though they don't play f2p games, they are negatively affecting the market. You don't seem to grasp that concept. We rarely even get a quality sub based MMO anymore because everyone wants to play games for free, so instead we end up with a wealth of terrible cash grab free games with little kids, gold spammers, hackers, bots, etc. plaguing them.
Why is that? you think a game should die off even a small chance of the game making it?
Free to play is not correct.
You get shut out of vital content or additions you need to be playing the game properly.
Adding to that they use this version to spam players with ads to full subs and cashshops ingame too.
F2P is just a permanent limited trial, holding you back and constantly reminding you how much better you would be off when buying the full package/full subscriptions.
yes, tons mmo do end up making a game feel like a trial, but a lot the free to play out there do give out more content then using the pay to unlock, but people forget to make money with out a sub or a pay for a box to fund the game keep it updated they need a cash shop.
But lock content depend on the f2p that one plays is like expansion of a sub game, is a lock content have to pay to get in, items in cash shop can't own it all, same with sub play even if I have to pay $15 a month can't own it all, most stuff behind a wall of a grind, or a wall in general.
So just end up for me, whats the most fun that not so much behind a big grind, I see this in many model not only f2p, like is there solo content = to group content not as fast but a good amount but not many mmo are like that out there.
Why aren't you supporting the games that are still having subs ? Go and pay and support FFXIV ARR and Wildstar . May be if more sub games stop failing you might see more sub games. No instead you decide to whine about the change . A lot of the problem was caused by lack of support by you. Look to yourself for the changes in the MMORPG landscape.
You do realize what genre of game you're playing, right? MMOs can't exist without a grind, people would get bored and quit within the first week because there's nothing to work toward.
But what you are talking about in your OP is about Pay 2 Win setups or unreasoable microtransactions and paywalls. That really isn't necessarily the same as F2P.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Originally posted by kitarad Why aren't you supporting the games that are still having subs ? Go and pay and support FFXIV ARR and Wildstar . May be if more sub games stop failing you might see more sub games. No instead you decide to whine about the change . A lot of the problem was caused by lack of support by you. Look to yourself for the changes in the MMORPG landscape.
Wildstar is terrible, but that's unrelated to having a sub. It's just a badly designed game, at least for me. I hate the combat style. I do support sub based games though, and FFXIV is miles better than any free game I've ever seen if you're into PvE. FFXIV is also doing pretty well.
People who play sub based games are generally pretty supportive of them, so once again I think you're wrong. The change is not so much caused by people being unwilling to pay for sub games, it's caused by there being 20 kids with no credit card looking for a free ride to every 1 person willing to pay for entertainment. Freeloaders..
But what you are talking about in your OP is about Pay 2 Win setups or unreasoable microtransactions and paywalls. That really isn't necessarily the same as F2P.
You're right, they aren't necessarily the same thing but one is most certainly caused by the other. A company can't just spend time and money to create a game and then throw it out there for everyone with no way to recoup their investment. This is why there are often paywalls and P2W elements. It would be extremely rare for a free game to actually make money on a cash shop that only houses small items with no big impact on game play. Most people simply aren't going to spend money on that type of thing.
First off the OP here picks one of the single worst designed pay models in the Western Hemisphere to support his point about F2p sucking: Archeage, which will be in business management textbooks in the future as a case study on what happens when you ignore localization and implement a pay system in America designed around Koreans who spend all day in an internet cafe paying per hour to play.
Second, most critics of f2p come from people who don't have a life. Sorry but its true, i know because I use to be one of these people. I was young, in school, had no job, no serious relationship, and no life. MMOs were my life and because of it i felt a fanatical amount offense at even the slightest amount of perceived "social injustice" in terms of any game that appeared to give people who could pay more an advantage. Little did I realize at the time, but that is pretty much how real life works.
Now that I am older and wiser i dont have the time to grind for hundreds of hours for some material or those last few levels which take forever. If I can pay for convienence for an XP booster or materials crafting pack, etc that cost a fraction of my hourly wage in real life, then why not? I just supported the game, made my gaming experience better and enabled a bunch of players who are f2p and will never pay a dime to keep on playing because, well, someone has to cover their server costs.
F2p is the natural progression of gamers growing up. The F in F2p still allows those who are younger to enjoy it and play it and use their time to progress. For the rest of us who are not teenagers anymore, we still dont like pay-to-win games, but pay for convenience (like getting gems/crystals to speed things up) is the only logical choice. Otherwise if u get rid of this type of system here is what happens: Adult games with jobs who actually pay money will go away, f2p gamers who pay nothign will stay, game shuts down = everyone loses.
I would never say it myself, but this is what I believe. People who play F2P games exclusively are just too cheap to pay for their entertainment. Yet those same people probably still pay to go see movies, concerts, listen to music, etc.
Comments
Well, based on that, and the fact that I knew you'd probably say something like that, I did some searches of some popular P2P and F2P MMO forums. Here's what I found:
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I like your style.
edit: Your graph is missing "fanboi", though.
If me games that go F2P should not die off, P2P is not a modal is going work all the time this days of age, yes to many mmo spend hundreds of millions to compete a mmo like wow, but we as player are looking at a mmo if it's not wow we not going pay $15 so the modal it self fail on it's self, so we can blame the dev and the players on the P2P not working like it use to been.
What should die off is the P2W aspect thats in all type of mmo, if you have the money real or in game, you can buy your self power with in it, then working for it in a path thats not gated.
I'll get right on the graph. First, though, I've got to figure out how I can move this into a python script so I can scale this. Then we'll worry about graphs. Maybe even plot the decline of human decency.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
The title is misleading because the forum is spamed on how F2P negatively affects game communities.
Unfortunately many players are cheap, and not willing to pay money so the game have to be fund by those whales.
Why is that unfortunate? Isn't frugal, particularly on luxury items like entertainment, a good moral value?
FREE-TO-PLAY IS KILLING OFF MMO'S.....It's a fact get used to it !!!!
There is no data on anything....Get use to that too !!!!
You can't run a poll here, because most here are looking for a free game.....That's something you'll have to get used to also !!!
Wait ... what?
Didn't many MMOs convert to F2P and survive longer? F2P is not killing off MMOs ... it is letting MMOs survive longer. If they die, it is because players prefer to play other types of games, or other entertainment.
I'm surprised by a question like this. There are legions of posts lamenting the rise of the F2P model. The anti F2P crowd is a very vocal group.
My personal feeling is that anytime you lower the bar to entry, you allow a greater number of entrants, and thus your 'rif raf' pool becomes higher. Free = large rif raf pool, $10 sub = less rif raf pool, $100 = a small rif raf pool. That's not to say that because you can afford 100 you can't be rif raf, I'm just saying the potential pool is smaller.
In addition, I would submit, that people who have a vested interested in the game by paying a subscription, are less prone to being rif raf.
I self identify as a monkey.
it simple just play a sub game and ignore the rest. That is what I do.
Nice post! It actually reads well.
I don't think that F2P necessarily does anything to "build community". However, I don't think that P2P games do anything, either. Actually, I'm not certain that it's the fault of the games or the communities themselves, either. I think it probably has more to do with time. I'd go as far as to say that people aren't interested in communities. Remember, back in the early 2000s there weren't things like social media. At least not the way people do it today. I feel like MMORPGs filled some sort of gap, a social void. Now, well, we just don't need that. So, stripped down, MMORPGs are really just time wasters wrapped in a social networking blanket. Always have been. That's not to say they aren't compelling. Some lore is also better than others. However, there isn't that same expressed interest in the social aspects. Us "old timers" might find it fun to play with others, but I feel like the 30+ crowd is the last bastion of the social MMORPG crowd. Basically, everything is horrible now, not excluding P2P. If I went one evening in WoW without seeing "anal [something]" in general chat, it would be rare.
That being said, it's the same reason I feel like games like P99 are going to be really good social experiences. Nobody wants to play a game that old, except people who played it back in the day.
As far as cash shops go. I think it's a necessary evil for games these days. Take a look at the latest P2P releases. Even blockbuster games (like SWTOR or ESO) would have been dead within a year or a little over that. Personally, as long as the don't throw best in slot gear behind a payment barrier, I think it's fine. They need to make money. People complain about these things being available in cash shops, but fact is it's always been available.I remember when you could buy in-game items on eBay!!! Powerleveling, gold, items, entire accounts!!! All available online and are just a search away. So why the big fuss? What? Now that money can go towards the ACTUAL game? I'm cool with it.
edit: oh yeah, and Ryzom is actually interesting. I looked at it a while ago because I heard it was open source development. Interesting idea. With that and P99, we might actually begin to see these types of things open up! Never know!
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Free to play is not correct.
You get shut out of vital content or additions you need to be playing the game properly.
Adding to that they use this version to spam players with ads to full subs and cashshops ingame too.
F2P is just a permanent limited trial, holding you back and constantly reminding you how much better you would be off when buying the full package/full subscriptions.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Wow, so many assertions, so few actualities.
You should probably take a peek out the window and make sure the sky isn't falling.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
If you just go by competition alone it is the backbone of developing good gaming instincts ,etiquette, sportsmanship and other qualities which you need as you grow up which is why we compete in school. It is to teach us good qualities in part.
However this aspect has become corrupted by greed,envy,jealousy and the spirit to win at all costs. Competition alone though is not a bad thing and when we compete we learn more about the game and our opponents. Not all aspects of an MMORPG is about just working together to achieve a common goal some aspects are always about competition. We compete to see who will become the leader of the class in the guild or an officer. People participate based on their ability to lead and even there we see a competition and of course guild first is all about competitions. This existed even in Everquest when guilds fought to kill dragons first on a server.
I really do not see the point of this thread. It will not change what has happened. The author and a few others need to move on and accept the change in the landscape and no amount of whining about the change is going to make it go their way. Perhaps instead telling us to deal with it the people still bellyaching should practice what they preach.
Agree and does help that mmo that survive longer to rethink there action that worked and what didn't work gives them time to fix things even if takes longer to do it.
I tell that to people that hate f2p, just ignore what f2p games that are out there, but there can't they will rage about it how much is p2w when they don't even play it.
That's probably because they recognize the fact that even though they don't play f2p games, they are negatively affecting the market. You don't seem to grasp that concept. We rarely even get a quality sub based MMO anymore because everyone wants to play games for free, so instead we end up with a wealth of terrible cash grab free games with little kids, gold spammers, hackers, bots, etc. plaguing them.
yes, tons mmo do end up making a game feel like a trial, but a lot the free to play out there do give out more content then using the pay to unlock, but people forget to make money with out a sub or a pay for a box to fund the game keep it updated they need a cash shop.
But lock content depend on the f2p that one plays is like expansion of a sub game, is a lock content have to pay to get in, items in cash shop can't own it all, same with sub play even if I have to pay $15 a month can't own it all, most stuff behind a wall of a grind, or a wall in general.
So just end up for me, whats the most fun that not so much behind a big grind, I see this in many model not only f2p, like is there solo content = to group content not as fast but a good amount but not many mmo are like that out there.
I'm not going to celebrate F2P.
But what you are talking about in your OP is about Pay 2 Win setups or unreasoable microtransactions and paywalls. That really isn't necessarily the same as F2P.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Wildstar is terrible, but that's unrelated to having a sub. It's just a badly designed game, at least for me. I hate the combat style. I do support sub based games though, and FFXIV is miles better than any free game I've ever seen if you're into PvE. FFXIV is also doing pretty well.
People who play sub based games are generally pretty supportive of them, so once again I think you're wrong. The change is not so much caused by people being unwilling to pay for sub games, it's caused by there being 20 kids with no credit card looking for a free ride to every 1 person willing to pay for entertainment. Freeloaders..
You're right, they aren't necessarily the same thing but one is most certainly caused by the other. A company can't just spend time and money to create a game and then throw it out there for everyone with no way to recoup their investment. This is why there are often paywalls and P2W elements. It would be extremely rare for a free game to actually make money on a cash shop that only houses small items with no big impact on game play. Most people simply aren't going to spend money on that type of thing.
I would never say it myself, but this is what I believe. People who play F2P games exclusively are just too cheap to pay for their entertainment. Yet those same people probably still pay to go see movies, concerts, listen to music, etc.
Now, which one of you will adorn me today?