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PFO "evangelists" called out on Reddit
Slapshot1188
Member LegendaryPosts: 17,652
Apparently they object to Ryan telling his "evangelists" (CEO's word not mine) to repeatedly post pieces like the "Why PFO Matters" on Reddit and here on this site. Pretty funny thread actually:
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Even the devs are grasping at straws to get people to play this game. /u/rsdancey is just another one of their community pawns or possibly a dev/mod trying to get people to play their dying world. It is shameful to see PFO constantly plugging their dying, broken, half baked game world to /r/mmorpg. I for one am tired of seeing PFO posts littering this sub with next to no content about the game itself and posts full of cheap tactics to get people playing. Look at any thread on sandbox MMO's and you will see their "community" trying to yank people into playing. I have not once seen a video or gameplay on this subreddit and only a handful of videos on YouTube.
The icing on the cake is this post on Pathfinder Online's forum. https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/2562/?page=1There is also long thread here about PFO:http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/719/view/forums/thread/431018/page/1
If you are in doubt go ahead and try it, but I would steer clear of PFO, their community members, moderators and anything else tied to this miserable game already in it's death throes.
Box+Monthly+Cash Shop for an Early Access game? Give me a break[mod edit]
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Why PFO has had a cool reception:
- Very pay2win-vibe cash shop
- selling items for extortionate amounts
- charging a monthly sub during alpha
- time-elapsed skill system where subbing immediately gives you power advantage over others who join at launch.
The sad part is that I actually really love the pen-and-paper Pathfinder system, over and above Wizards of the Coast's D&D system. I'd love to support Paizo, but this just seems all kinds of bad.
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Exactly this. When you have to make a new term up ("early enrollment") to justify your business model, you know it's messed up.
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Because PFO is asking for money on the level of a fully released P2P game while including a cash shop that provides players with very noticeable benefits. And it's in alpha.
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Why PFO matters?
Asking 30$ for unfinished game ... check
Asking 15$/month for sub ... check
Selling virtual tavern for 5k$ ... check
sorry bro, if Jesus himself would make MMO I wouldn't play under this terrible pricing model. (box+sub+cash shop)
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And YES, the "Why PFO Matters" post was SPECIFICALLY directed by Ryan to be posted on that subreddit:
https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/2854/?page=2
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One other nugget from that post. The CEO admitted that they will have to change their pricing model but he knows it will piss off all the kickstarter folks so they are trying to figure out a way to do it without "pissing off everyone"
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
One other nugget from that post. The CEO admitted that they will have to change their pricing model but he knows it will piss off all the kickstarter folks so they are trying to figure out a way to do it without "pissing off everyone"
Actually (this does not surprise me, at all, considering how badly GW and Ryan Dancey have hurt you :P) here is the paragraph that you are extrapolating the above comment from.
Yes, we are planning to change the payment model. I have been very explicit about that from the beginning. Subscriptions are just the simplest, fastest way to generate income. Since we are small, we have to make constant tradeoffs. I could have my team spend time on a more flexible MTX driven system, or I could have them make the game better. I have opted for the latter. Over time we will have lots of ways to pay to play, and a continuum of value you can buy, so that most people will see an option that strikes them as fair. For today though, I think $15/month is very fair, and that the amount of elasticity with such a low price is likely minimal. I could be wrong. Maybe in a world where a movie ticket costs $12 and a cup of Starbucks is $5 the multiple of increased sales on a lower price would offset the per player revenue reduction. It is something I think about continuously. Figuring out how to test that hypothesis without pissing off everyone who didn't get "the deal" is the tricky part.
He is not stating that GW WILL HAVE TO change the payment model. He says quite clearly that they plan to change it. From "the way back"that has been known to all of us. They want to explore some type of F2P models. They want to explore a system similar to plex from EVE. Just off the top of my head, that stood out. Still not surprised that you either do not know what you are talking about (misinformed or just don't know) or that if you really have an axe to grind you will twist anything that anyone says or posts.
There are more misconceptions in that string also.
Like: Playing early gives you a huge advantage over new people.
1. It does. You will have more achievements finished. You will have more exp. You will have more wealth, knowledge and contacts.
2. Pound for pound you will not be unstoppable to any but the very newest characters and certainly not a group of them at once. Google up something for EVE about those same concerns. Read what people say about that for EVE. A player that specializes can easily be a contender. It isn't that way in most MMOs. That is where the early start and more exp concerns come from. Even in those games, I don't hesitate to start playing just because I wasn't there on day one.
Cash shop is pay to win.
1. Many games that have them are P2W. There is no use arguing that. It was the source of many long threads on the Paizo forums.
2. They have stated that nothing you can buy (if it effects game mechanics) will be better than something you can craft. Mostly items will be cosmetic. The future likely will include buying game time that is much like Plex (can be bought and sold in game) . It is understandable that we have all heard these assurances before and usually they don't stick. I will wait until GW fails thier promises about the MTX before I decide they already have.
Now do I, or more importantly the playing pop, feel that GW should reconsider the box+sub thing. Well, yes. There are a few of us, at least that suggested it. Definitely not a majority, but some. Are THEY considering altering the current model to get into the game? I hope so and it sounds like they are.
Reading a few of those reddit threads (that I have time for now) , it looks like a fair spread of positive, neutral, and negative comments. Not exactly a blow out.
Again, yes the game needs a massive amount of work. You should not play yet if that is a serious issue for you. Those that like to see a game develop from the inside, should at least take a look. It is fun.
Finally, thanks for a new place to write this:
Anyone that wants to take a look at PfO at this stage, and make thier own judgement, I have more "15 day free trial keys." Just PM me and include an email address.
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/
Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms.
Are You Ready to Smite Evil?
ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Why should anyone pay $15/mo + box price to play an alpha/unfinished and buggy game?
On top of all the other "problems"....
Let alone try to get other people to play it.....
It's not hard at all to find funding if you have a good prototype and a decent business plan. PFO does not have either.
If a game company decides to charge full box price + monthly subscription they have to also deal with the fact that they are judged as a game company with a released product.
It seems to me you are saying we should make an exception for this particular Project because the owners think the game should be judged as an early Alpha while at the same time asking for a release type pricing. You can't have it both ways.
You see the problem here?
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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while I agree on his bashing for no reason I do not agree with most of what you said here. Indie dev companies do not get funding because half of their studios and ideas are not remotely realistic and half of these so - called indie companies are scam artists that will eventually go to steam and sit in the early access game list for years ripping off customers with no refunds and alot of sales hype. These companies do this crap to themselves with some of the ridiculous tactics and ideas they use to make a buck. Go look at steams early access of all these indie dev studios out here and count how many have actually went to a 1.0 release or even a beta from alpha for that matter. Companies like this and other greedy indie devs are the reason why funding is scarce now. People are sick and tired of over rated hype and no ability to deliver then take the money and run tactics.
Edit- Dullahans comment
How out of touch with this industry are you to suggest its not hard to get funding? Have you been paying attention at all? Please, by all means, go ahead and name a few companies in the last few years that have created prototypes and actually been funded.
Look, I'm all for people voicing their opinion, but there are already a bunch of threads to do so in. Even I said I wasn't impressed by PFO, but there is no need to belabor the issue. They will either fix it or they won't, and they have every right to try and launch a game in whatever state they want, but its probably going to backfire. [mod edit]
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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Sorry, those games mostly aren't even MMOs, and crowdfunding is not the same as full funding from real investors.
I'm not a PFO fan, so I am speaking simply as a fan of the genre, but a little compassion is in order for some of these companies. You can warn people or call them naive for backing the game, but bashing game developers who are trying to create a niche product in the current climate is ignorant. This isn't directed at everyone who disliked Pathfinder, because speaking your mind is great, but theres a fine line between that and reveling in their misfortune which is inappropriate and damaging to the genre at large; even if its largely the result of their own inexperience or ineptitude.
The genre gets damaged when "developers" like PFO suck every little bit of profit out of the desperate and gullible MMORPG community going so far as actively recruiting their fans to recruit others to the scam.
I will say it now and go on the record. This game will never be even close to a real working, fully featured MMORPG, not even AA quality. The engine choice is one indicator that these people have no idea what they are doing.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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Except there are a number of games in development with Unity, most working out very well. Not the least of which is Crowfall, which has more industry veterans than probably any other game in development. Jeez, someone really should have let them know that they have no idea what they are doing.
As far as sucking every little bit of profit, the game is free to try for 2 weeks, anyone that buys into Pathfinder knows full well what they are getting into by then and is making an educated decision. You seem a little irrational about this whole thing.
1. Anyone that objects to the box+sub for a game that isn't nearly finished should not pay anything to play at all. They should wait until the game is at a point that they feel they are getting value for their $. No one is asking anyone (that I can see) to do other than that.
2. Tons of features are not in yet. Some of those that are in, are buggy. There is a great deal of work to do still.
Right now, though, there are very many things that work well enough to have a great deal of fun. So many that I do not have time to do all that I want/need to do. I can Explore, Create, Make War, and Build. There are some bugs, there are unimplemented features and little polish to those in, yet all of that can be done in game, right now.
3. My reasons, in order of importance to me are:
A. I really like the vision and the progress so far. I want the game to succeed.
B. I come here partly to contest misinformation, answer questions, and get people to TRY the game. I don't want anyone that does not see value (for themselves) in the game to PLAY the game. I would like to see some TRY the game. This game was not designed to draw a huge player base during this stage. I do know that it was targeted to draw more than it has at this point, though.
Some of those that try the game (and have a positive experience) will find value and decide to play the game. <---those are (however small the %) the ones that we are after.
C. Some percentage of those that stay (however small) might remember me and want to help try carving a society out of the wilderness in my team of Do-Gooders.
D. We are encouraged to find more people to sign up. We get a month sub if our Trial Keys get turned into full fledged players. I put this last because it is last in my motives. I can get by just fine without free months, but I won't turn any down that I get either.
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/
Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms.
Are You Ready to Smite Evil?
ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
I'm in now with several accounts because I get to help shape the game world, build up my character in the early stages (and be more powerful early on, and more diverse later), and to play the game with many of the other people and players I have become friendly with over the past three years or so. So far it's a lot of fun. Sure there are some buggy things in each patch. That never happened in WoW, lucky for Blizz. Never had a patch run on the server side between content patches, nosirree.
There are tons of 15-day free trials available. OP is hurt so he's been on a personal crusade to smear PFO as much as he can. His time, but seems a little sad to me. Lots of fun to be had out there in the game world. Try it free, or another game. This game is not for everyone. PFO players must be patient, like to build things, work with a large number of other players, and want to have fun while growing their settlement. If that does not sound like fun, try a theme park. There's lots of those out there too!
Over 3 years of work and no Keybinds displayed on the UI.
I think it is you who have no idea what they're doing by spewing such bullshit. Unity has nothing to do with Pathfinder Online being as bad as it is. There are some great games being made with Unity, even great looking ones with Unity 5.
Pathfinder Online's quality depends on the development studio only.
Executive Editor (Games) http://www.wccftech.com
Unity 5 can look like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV-224nMwN8
Also
Not quite sure why, but asked by mods to consolidate this thread with the other one so here goes:
Yup... despite the very weak prior arguments from the "Evangelists" that the game was not P2W and that you could supposedly catch up. GW has now announced a new Veterans Rewards system. Oh the pure irony of having "Veterans" for a game in it's current state is funny and the idea that they would devote resources to this instead of other more obvious needs is even bothering many of the "Evangelists".
Unlike most games that will give you some cosmetic item or something to hang in your house, PFO is giving you items that make your characters stronger. So not only do you now have to sub during the horrendous "Early Enrollment" time due to the time based XP gain, but now they have COMPOUNDED that by announcing "Veteran Rewards" that directly increase your skills. They are even creating a new character slot to hold these new items. Wow... simply... wow.
Veteran Rewards
Projected Release: EE9
The Veteran Rewards system will give players a new type of item, Azlanti Stones, on the last day of each month of their subscriptions. As players are subscribed for additional months, they get more stones and higher level stones based on a planned-out monthly progression. Each player effectively has his or her own counter for how many months he or she has been subscribed and what the next reward is. The first month may get you a Minor Sapphire Azlanti Stone, while month two rewards a Minor Ruby Azlanti Stone. Players who have been active since January will get all appropriate rewards for months subscribed already immediately and all accounts active since January are treated as having their first day of subscription being January 1st (and thus will get their new rewards on the last day of each month). Those accounts that have been subscribed for less time will get their backdated rewards immediately and will get new rewards on the last day of their current subscriptions. If you end your subscription, the counter on your Veteran Rewards stops, so if you subscribe for three months and then drop out for two months, when you come back you’ll get your month four reward at the end of your first month back.
Azlanti Stones will be slottable items that provide a constant, passive bonus to a limited number of attributes for a character. For example the month two reward, a Minor Ruby Azlanti Stone, may provide +12 Hit Points while slotted. Azlanti Stones will go into a new slot on characters that will only be for these items, so having one and equipping it is always better than not having one. The bonuses will go up with more powerful stones that are gained later in the monthly progression, but the bonus is never designed to be a fight-winning bonus on its own.
The Azlanti Stones come in a number of colors and power levels. These stones may be combined using special recipes to create different colors that have different bonuses, or to combine weaker stones into more powerful stones. With this system, players can customize their Azlanti Stone bonus to favor specific skills or attributes they particularly value.
In addition to the stone gained on the last day of each month of subscription, the character will get a rank in a new skill called Veteran. Ranks in Veteran will be required to slot and craft Azlanti Stones, and more powerful Azlanti Stones will require higher ranks of Veteran to use.
https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/2910/
Some comments from even the "Evangelists":
Have to admit to being a bit disappointed by this announcement of Azlanti Stones in the new veterans rewards blog.
I really don't understand what these are supposed to add to the game at all.
At the best this seems like wasted dev time.
I'm willing to wait and see, but so far they sound a lot like something I'm going to have to convince new players that they aren't a competitive issue.
If they take durability hits, and they have 20 durability, and they only spawn once a month, then they are even more a waste of developer time.
I agree here, sounds like a lot of time spent else where, unless they have been planning this for awhile and already have assets in place.
The entire blog, I was thinking "this is where developer time is going?".
Anyway, the Crusaders at Mmmorpg.com will be all over the Veteran Reward system no doubt. I know we have decided to discard them as just a couple of sock puppets but GW sure is giving them ample ammo. (my edit to add... note they still think everyone who understands where this game is going is a "sock puppet" acct which is pretty funny)
I was sortoff with the Azlanti-stone system untill I came at the very end where it was made clear that you can not simply trade these stones to a newer player who can then utilize them, since you need to have those veteran levels too if you actually want to be able to slot them. At first I figured, "hey, if we can trade these stones, this may be a way to spread the early-bird wealth a bit with newer players". But now these new players will be forever looking at a slot in their paperdoll that will contain a lower level item then people who have come before them.
I think this will feel more as "being behind forever" then the XP-gap. (I still think the XP gap should be mollified by flattening the curves and allowing players to reach tier 3 caps of a specific path in much less time).
I hope these veteran rewards never get implemented…
This is a cheap way of getting people to stay subscribed but i would never want to have this kind of advantage over others and i would never want others to have this kind of advantage over me.
If anything stuff like these will just make me unsubscribe.
Azlanti Stones already represent I believe a small unfortunate step in the danger zone of expanding new/old player power gaps and that is enough potential problem I believe without layering mov speed on top of it.
And, I do want to express my complete agreement that veteran rewards (in general, and specifically these) that provide mechanical benefits are only going to hurt - making the power curve even steeper.
Veterans already have an advantage in breadth of options and from passive feats, we don't need arbitrary stat boosts that will only unbalance things further.
As for Azlanti Stones, I get the intent, I like the intent. Reward your backers with a little something for helping you out, that's fine, thanks, we love you (despite our incessant whining sometimes). But the specific implementation of the stones? At best they are a trivial requirement and at worst they are significant advantage depending on the strength of their bonuses.
Even if these things weren't gated by months subscribed and limited injections into the game I would still not care for them, they don't add anything really interesting to the game.
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Hey since they like "Crowdforging" maybe we can Crowdforge a big middle finger and tell them this is a REALLY bad idea on top of other bad ones (Box price + sub + cash shop for a game in this condition). Maybe they will listen and backtrack, but I think the comment above nailed it: This is a cheap way of getting people to stay subscribed
It will be interesting to see how the "Evangelists" respond here and explain how this is NOT P2W and how this doesn't further make it impossible for new players to catch up on top of the XP over time. GW continually shows that if you do NOT pay for the game in it's current state (which Bill Murphy even said something along the line of "Don't even look at it for another year"), you will be forever behind the curve.
Just like GREEDMONGER, and Mortal Online... these guys just keep the laughs rolling. Some games really deliver more on forums than they ever will inside the actual game.
I'd also like to point out that while they have plenty of time to design, code and implement the "Veteran's Rewards" they still have not delivered a bunch of items that people ACTUALLY PAID FOR in the Kickstarter like "Twice Marked of Pharasma" or any of the "Daily Deals".
Good to know that they have their priorities straight...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not quite,i would hardly call PFO a world beater,more like holding a sign that says ...Quit buying lemons from used car salesmen".
Geesh it seemed like just yesterday 99% of forum users were complaining of unfinished games and sub fees,now they are supporting them with far more money.
Quit supporting unfinished games,force devs to lure investors in,if they can't ,then why should we support them.
If PFO turns out to be a great game,great all the power to them and it's supporters,it still won't change my mind on supporting unfinished work.I could only imagine how happy my boss would be if his customers paid him in advance instead of making him wait 30-60 days and holding back 15%.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What I have had a hard time understanding is why there has been people hyping this game?
When I look at the game it just looks dated in both character models and world space.