Needs some PvP for me tbh which i dont beleive pantheon is going for, I just find PvE incredably boring since its so darn predictable.
Any mmo released in the past five years is incredibly boring and predictable because their not mmos, but video games. Move left to right across your screen doing story quest in order by your self.
This is everything that is wrong with Video Game Developers in 2015. They may have a "plan", but that plan is to get as much money as they can from people before even proving that they can release a complete game.
You say it like it's a bad thing. When attracting investment it's almost always the plan to attract as much money as you can get (within reason.) Because it increases your chances of making a good game. When SOE invested in EQ or Microsoft in Vanguard do you think they didn't know the developers were trying to get as much money as they could? You do realize, you paid for that investment in higher product prices from SOE and Microsoft. And in that case you had zero control and zero real information on the state of the "prototype."
No video game would ever get made if they had to prove they could
release a complete game before they could get a single penny to pay the
people who develop that complete game.
As a customer, that isn't my problem.
I don't care "how the sausage gets made", that is what the developers are in business for. And how some developer gets funding is not my problem.
I care that when I pay the money, I get the product I paid for.
Which is exactly what is not happening with "crowdfunding" in regards to MMOs, and with Pantheon in particular: anything people have paid up to this point has only gone to making a demo, in the hopes of getting an investor. No investor, no game.
And people should pay for that why?
Crowdfunding can work just fine for MMORPGs... take a look at Project Gorgon.
You know why Gorgan is different? You can log in and play anytime for free.
I find it hilarious and even disingenuous when a game developer with no game, who is charging for pre-orders says "look at Gorgan".
Good thing no one from Pantheon said to look at Gorgon, nor are they charging for pre-orders.
Frankly, I've looked at Gorgon and I don't see much. While I'm rooting for indie games, and would like to see it succeed, right now its just another shell of a game with do-it-yourself content being passed off as a sandbox. So lets not pretend just because people can log in for free that its somehow more deserving of a donation than another game still in development behind closed doors. I could add similar systems to the work Visionary Realms currently has completed in a matter of months and call it a "playable sandbox" too.
I totally get your perspective. However, I think it's a basic problem with crowdfunding. The basic idea, IMHO is to put the everyday person in the role of funding a project, which means you are an investor, not a customer. That's just my take. At the very least it blurs the line between customer and investor. And companies are not innocent either, they don't treat you like a partner or an investor, or a customer either.
And that is a big misconception people have: when you do some sort of crowdfunding, you are most certainly NOT an investor.
If anything, consumer protection law is starting to consider people that back crowdfunded efforts "customers", with the rights that attach that way.
There have already been several lawsuits / cases brought by the government for people committing overt fraud, and "customer rights" were a centerpiece of the legal arguments.
I think my statement stands. If you have to get a court involved to figure out whether someone crowdfunding is a customer or an investor then the lines have been blurred. The point is it isn't clear what you are. Courts may be starting to clarify it, but the fact they are even involved means it's something new and that those people doing it aren't on solid ground.
I totally get your perspective. However, I think it's a basic problem with crowdfunding. The basic idea, IMHO is to put the everyday person in the role of funding a project, which means you are an investor, not a customer. That's just my take. At the very least it blurs the line between customer and investor. And companies are not innocent either, they don't treat you like a partner or an investor, or a customer either.
And that is a big misconception people have: when you do some sort of crowdfunding, you are most certainly NOT an investor.
If anything, consumer protection law is starting to consider people that back crowdfunded efforts "customers", with the rights that attach that way.
There have already been several lawsuits / cases brought by the government for people committing overt fraud, and "customer rights" were a centerpiece of the legal arguments.
I think my statement stands. If you have to get a court involved to figure out whether someone crowdfunding is a customer or an investor then the lines have been blurred. The point is it isn't clear what you are. Courts may be starting to clarify it, but the fact they are even involved means it's something new and that those people doing it aren't on solid ground.
Not really.
The government did not go to court to decide who was a customer or a donor (they were never considered investors at any time), they brought suit to punish scammers that were starting crowdfunding projects to take in a bunch of money with no intention of ever doing them. Do a quick search and read the pleadings if you are so inclined.
In the US at least, it is very easy to determine who is an investor, and who is not. When you legitimately invest in a company, you get something that recognized by law: stock, bond, ownership in the company, revenue sharing contract, something. Lacking any of that, you are not an investor in the eyes of the law. It is black letter law and very easy to prove or disprove.
In regards to crowding efforts, it is a toss up between "donor" or "customer": sometimes a product is explicitly promised for the money (like the guy that did a KS to sell 95% tungsten cubes), in which case it is no different than pre-ordering anything; if not, and if people are stupid enough to give money to some "company" without condition because that company is supposedly doing something they think is a good idea, you are a "donor". As a donor, you have practically no legal rights, as a customer, you do.
That is the case with this thing, where the devs came out and said that were using money to make a demo, not a full deliverable product. Even if the devs fulfill every promise they have made, they are still only making a demo that may or may not ever end up being a released game.
And if nothing ever releases, no one can be sued over the money taken in and nothing delivered.
And telling yourself that you are an "investor", to make yourself feel better about giving up some money for "nothing", over and over does not change that.
If you are giving up money for literally nothing then you are absolutely not a customer. If he company promised nothing then they owe you nothing. The difference is these incentives companies offer for various levels of "investment." If a company promises something then they are obligated to deliver and if they do not, they can expect to wind up in court and, yes, in that case consumer law may be used to decide whether the company failed to deliver what they promised.
However, the name crowdfunding (and the very nature of the proposition) implies you are funding a project. It is a speculative proposition from the start. You have no more certainty than any investor does that the company being funded will actually produce something. Thus, in that sense you are not a customer. Like an investor you could put in money and get nothing. Telling yourself you are a customer does not change this basic dynamic.
And telling yourself that you are an "investor", to make yourself feel better about giving up some money for "nothing", over and over does not change that.
If you are giving up money for literally nothing then you are absolutely not a customer. If he company promised nothing then they owe you nothing. The difference is these incentives companies offer for various levels of "investment." If a company promises something then they are obligated to deliver and if they do not, they can expect to wind up in court and, yes, in that case consumer law may be used to decide whether the company failed to deliver what they promised.
However, the name crowdfunding (and the very nature of the proposition) implies you are funding a project. It is a speculative proposition from the start. You have no more certainty than any investor does that the company being funded will actually produce something. Thus, in that sense you are not a customer. Like an investor you could put in money and get nothing. Telling yourself you are a customer does not change this basic dynamic.
Funny how so many people have dumped money into crowd funding games and still have no clue what they are doing. Its sad and funny at the same time =-\
And telling yourself that you are an "investor", to make yourself feel better about giving up some money for "nothing", over and over does not change that.
If you are giving up money for literally nothing then you are absolutely not a customer. If he company promised nothing then they owe you nothing. The difference is these incentives companies offer for various levels of "investment." If a company promises something then they are obligated to deliver and if they do not, they can expect to wind up in court and, yes, in that case consumer law may be used to decide whether the company failed to deliver what they promised.
However, the name crowdfunding (and the very nature of the proposition) implies you are funding a project. It is a speculative proposition from the start. You have no more certainty than any investor does that the company being funded will actually produce something. Thus, in that sense you are not a customer. Like an investor you could put in money and get nothing. Telling yourself you are a customer does not change this basic dynamic.
You continue to misunderstand. You are nothing like an investor, since you are guaranteed to never get any return on your investment. And the "incentives" aren't a return on investment, they are cheap bait to get as many people as possible to participate. They are much like that "free toaster" when you open a checking account.
Make no mistake, these companies do not care about you or your wellbeing, or your interests. They care about your money. They formulate a plan to tell you what you think you want to hear so that you are willing to give a bit of money to them, then they throw cheap bait your way to get you to donate a bit more money. Maybe they will, maybe they won't ever produce a game. Unfortunately, it's more likely that they won't.
Don't take the bait of thinking that "by me giving my money to them, I have a better chance of getting a game I want."; It doesn't work that way. These companies aren't trying to come up with the perfect game to satisfy your whim, they are trying to come up with the most effective way to convince you that your money belongs in their pocket.
Funny how so many people have dumped money into crowd funding games and still have no clue what they are doing. Its sad and funny at the same time =-\
To paraphrase P.T. Barnum, there's a fool creating a new Kickstarter account every day.
Many people give to crowdfunding effort knowing full well there's no promise of anything. They do it out of a desire to see a product like the one being developed reach market. That does not make them a fool.
This argument is so ridiculous. By definition of the word, people who put money into a kickstarter are an investor. They are not investing for potential financial gain, they are investing in hope of a game they want to play. There is no promise that you will get a return on investment in any situation, hence the reason terms like ROI are even created.
I'm sorry it rustles so many jimmies that people like myself gladly back games we deem to have potential. Get over it. No more tears.
Funny how so many people have dumped money into crowd funding games and still have no clue what they are doing. Its sad and funny at the same time =-\
To paraphrase P.T. Barnum, there's a fool creating a new Kickstarter account every day.
Many people give to crowdfunding effort knowing full well there's no promise of anything. They do it out of a desire to see a product like the one being developed reach market. That does not make them a fool.
Sure there are people that do understand and yet so many think they are customers not backers. Like they have some right. The chances of getting a working product or the grounds to get your money back are small. Little over 6 months ago there was a report that showed only 30% of backed games get released. How many were good game? IMO if you know what your doing and dont mind that your money is no more then hope for something that may never come. All the power to you. To the rest, just sad.
By definition of the word, people who put money into a kickstarter are an investor. They are not investing for potential financial gain, they are investing in hope of a game they want to play. There is no promise that you will get a return on investment in any situation, hence the reason terms like ROI are even created.
That logic makes every purchase of anything an investment. I think the word you are looking for is a gamble? - ie everyone who puts money into a kickstarter is taking a gamble.
You continue to misunderstand. You are nothing like an investor, since you are guaranteed to never get any return on your investment. And the "incentives" aren't a return on investment, they are cheap bait to get as many people as possible to participate. They are much like that "free toaster" when you open a checking account.
Make no mistake, these companies do not care about you or your wellbeing, or your interests. They care about your money. They formulate a plan to tell you what you think you want to hear so that you are willing to give a bit of money to them, then they throw cheap bait your way to get you to donate a bit more money. Maybe they will, maybe they won't ever produce a game. Unfortunately, it's more likely that they won't.
Don't take the bait of thinking that "by me giving my money to them, I have a better chance of getting a game I want."; It doesn't work that way. These companies aren't trying to come up with the perfect game to satisfy your whim, they are trying to come up with the most effective way to convince you that your money belongs in their pocket.
With all due respect, I think you're being a bit too cynical. With Pantheon in particular, we are creating a game for a target audience (as opposed to trying to make an MMO that appeals to everyone). And if we're targeting an audience, we absolutely need to listen to them. If we don't, we could end up with a game that didn't appeal as well to that audience as it could have, which is bad for the game, us, and the player. Nobody 'wins' if we don't listen to the people we are making this game for.
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
By definition of the word, people who put money into a kickstarter are an investor. They are not investing for potential financial gain, they are investing in hope of a game they want to play. There is no promise that you will get a return on investment in any situation, hence the reason terms like ROI are even created.
That logic makes every purchase of anything an investment. I think the word you are looking for is a gamble? - ie everyone who puts money into a kickstarter is taking a gamble.
No, it doesn't. A normal purchase doesn't have the time factor, risk or chance of greater return. Now if you purchase 50 can openers before a zombie apocalypse, that could be considered an investment because the factors of time and ROI.
$50 towards a game I really want to play in the future could be worth 10x as much to me as the $50 I spend on games offering more of the same.
Crowdfunding is a tough way to make a great game. Unfortunately the real world requires huge investments to get big projects started. Compromises have to be made somewhere down the line. I wish the game success but I remain very skeptical it will ever get off the ground.
YOU do not care how the game gets made, but YOU =/= EVERYONE. At least some of us would prefer to chip in something toward an MMORPG we know we will have more of a chance to enjoy then the CRAP that is currently available... to chip in something toward an MMORPG that then gains more of a chance to be made with our support than without. IT IS a risk, but one WE see as worth taking.
So why make such a stand against people taking that chance? Some other nonsense you are not stating?
Crowdfunding can work just fine for MMORPGs... take a look at Project Gorgon.
YOU should not pay to support Pantheon. However, those whom recognize the very few opportunities at the moment to potentially get an MMORPG worth playing, WE should.
You know why Gorgan is different? You can log in and play anytime for free.
I find it hilarious and even disingenuous when a game developer with no game, who is charging for pre-orders says "look at Gorgan".
First thing that should be stated :
I am not even a game developer in the industry at the moment, I am not in any way even associated with Pantheon's development, and I am not even associated with any of Visionary Realms' team.
Second thing that should be stated :
The quote of mine that you quoted has been corrected, as it now holds everything I stated in that post.
Third thing that should be stated :
Note that what I stated does not just come down to "Crowdfunding can work just fine for MMORPGs... take a look at Project Gorgon." It does not come down to someone such as yourself picking and choosing a single line out of context (of which I will explain that context next), adding some completely untrue spin as to who or what relation the poster quoted has to any development team, and then further twisting what was meant by the partial quote (ie- we are back to context, or meaning).
Fourth thing that should be stated :
The entire concept of Project Gorgon having been mentioned, is for those that have actually at least played it at all, and realize just how much 2 to 4 people have done with near no funding.
Although I am not exactly sure what is true of that development team, I do believe I read that it is just a husband and wife pair, and-or possibly an additional two people involved? Look at what they have already accomplished, and realize that is with near no funding.
Another thing I am not exactly sure what is true of that development team, is that I do believe I read that they had no prior experience in the gaming industry. Again, look at what they have accomplished, and realize that is with near no funding.
Fifth thing that follows from all of this :
Pantheon is being developed by multiple veteran developers of the industry, from multiple past development teams, with a solid vision of the MMORPG they are producing.
Pantheon is being developed not because any of the members of the development team are guaranteed to make money, but because they all share a genuine love and appreciation for a united vision of what an MMORPG ought to be.
Do note that : "no member of the Pantheon development team is guaranteed to make money."
This is a matter of pointing out a very mutual risk vs reward, on behalf of both the development team and those that choose to back them financially.
The entire game as any business, and when looking at the majority of attempted business start ups, could in fact naturally fail. This is a possibility.
Do you think that each and every member of this development team is somehow NOT paying out of their own pockets and time to move Pantheon forward in some ways?
Bah... Aggravation is aggravation. So before I yet again say something that will get me flagged... I'll hush now
Crowdfunding is a tough way to make a great game. Unfortunately the real world requires huge investments to get big projects started. Compromises have to be made somewhere down the line. I wish the game success but I remain very skeptical it will ever get off the ground.
Crowdfunding is indeed a tough way to completely fund a game like an MMO. Star Citizen may be the exception. But it *is* a good way to get a new company up and going. I'm not at liberty at this point to talk about additional funding, but I can say that crowdfunding has and continues to be a big part of what's enabled us to start and continue developing Pantheon. That said, as we've said from the very inception, by no means do we expect crowdfunding to provide enough to complete development. Even so, without it, I don't think we'd be where we are, so while I totally respect those who choose to wait and see, I also have to extend my sincere thanks to everyone who has supported us (and other games too!).
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
All I know is the two people who can't and shouldn't be trusted with anyone's money is Brad and Smed. I have to say anyone giving these two money for a game must really have money to burn and shouldn't expect nothing back in return and that includes a working fully released game.
I do understand the type of game you guys want to play and heck I do too. But these two have run their course and they are both trying to create what they had years ago. Which is the problem, they have no new ideas that could create a game that holds on to what they and we experienced years ago and that my friends is sad. It is like they say you can never go back and get that feeling again.
Personally am waiting for that person who has the hunger and is fearless to go and create something that will open all our eyes and say WTF why didn't we think of that. It may happen years from now or it could be happening in some basement right now. But that person will not be allowing some backer(s) to say you can't do that or it won't sell.
I just hope it happens before i die because that is what me and a few others are waiting for.
All I know is the two people who can't and shouldn't be trusted with anyone's money is Brad and Smed. I have to say anyone giving these two money for a game must really have money to burn and shouldn't expect nothing back in return and that includes a working fully released game.
I do understand the type of game you guys want to play and heck I do too. But these two have run their course and they are both trying to create what they had years ago. Which is the problem, they have no new ideas that could create a game that holds on to what they and we experienced years ago and that my friends is sad. It is like they say you can never go back and get that feeling again.
Personally am waiting for that person who has the hunger and is fearless to go and create something that will open all our eyes and say WTF why didn't we think of that. It may happen years from now or it could be happening in some basement right now. But that person will not be allowing some backer(s) to say you can't do that or it won't sell.
I just hope it happens before i die because that is what me and a few others are waiting for.
So basically what you're saying is you have no idea what has been proposed with Pantheon, because they've told us about a number of fresh ideas that have not been done before in MMOs, and some anywhere period.
By definition of the word, people who put money into a kickstarter are an investor. They are not investing for potential financial gain, they are investing in hope of a game they want to play. There is no promise that you will get a return on investment in any situation, hence the reason terms like ROI are even created.
That logic makes every purchase of anything an investment. I think the word you are looking for is a gamble? - ie everyone who puts money into a kickstarter is taking a gamble.
No, it doesn't. A normal purchase doesn't have the time factor, risk or chance of greater return. Now if you purchase 50 can openers before a zombie apocalypse, that could be considered an investment because the factors of time and ROI.
$50 towards a game I really want to play in the future could be worth 10x as much to me as the $50 I spend on games offering more of the same.
I recently paid for a table that i designed myself. It will take 4-6 months before I get it (has to be built). It could end up being better or worse than what I imagined, it might not work with the rest of my furniture. On the other hand it could end up being passed down my family as something of an heirloom.
Its a bit of a gamble- but its just a purchase not an investment.
In addition if we take out the time factor I can apply your logic to any game purchase. Buying a game is always a bit of a risk, maybe I won't really like it, maybe it will be the best game ever- worth 10x more than the $50 I spent on it. And I can certainly apply your logic to a pre-order - even including the time factor.
Its completely delusional to call giving money to someone in the hope they will make a game you will enjoy 5 years down the track "an investment". You are just paying money for a product to be delivered down the track.
It may seem harmless enough to fool yourself in such a way if you only put down $50, but feel for the people that get sucked into to such thinking and then plonk down thousands for their "investment".
I recently paid for a table that i designed myself. It will take 4-6 months before I get it (has to be built). It could end up being better or worse than what I imagined, it might not work with the rest of my furniture. On the other hand it could end up being passed down my family as something of an heirloom.
Its a bit of a gamble- but its just a purchase not an investment.
In addition if we take out the time factor I can apply your logic to any game purchase. Buying a game is always a bit of a risk, maybe I won't really like it, maybe it will be the best game ever- worth 10x more than the $50 I spent on it. And I can certainly apply your logic to a pre-order - even including the time factor.
Its completely delusional to call giving money to someone in the hope they will make a game you will enjoy 5 years down the track "an investment". You are just paying money for a product to be delivered down the track.
It may seem harmless enough to fool yourself in such a way if you only put down $50, but feel for the people that get sucked into to such thinking and then plonk down thousands for their "investment".
Its an investment because your 50 bucks may or may not get you anything. You are not paying for a product you will get. You paying into an idea. Your illustration of the table, at the end you will get a table. With this game, you have no clue if you will get anything. If at the end you get nothing, there is little chance you will get your money back. Crowd funded projects does not make you a customer, it makes you a backer. They are not the same thing.
I recently paid for a table that i designed myself. It will take 4-6 months before I get it (has to be built). It could end up being better or worse than what I imagined, it might not work with the rest of my furniture. On the other hand it could end up being passed down my family as something of an heirloom.
Its a bit of a gamble- but its just a purchase not an investment.
In addition if we take out the time factor I can apply your logic to any game purchase. Buying a game is always a bit of a risk, maybe I won't really like it, maybe it will be the best game ever- worth 10x more than the $50 I spent on it. And I can certainly apply your logic to a pre-order - even including the time factor.
Its completely delusional to call giving money to someone in the hope they will make a game you will enjoy 5 years down the track "an investment". You are just paying money for a product to be delivered down the track.
It may seem harmless enough to fool yourself in such a way if you only put down $50, but feel for the people that get sucked into to such thinking and then plonk down thousands for their "investment".
Its an investment because your 50 bucks may or may not get you anything. You are not paying for a product you will get. You paying into an idea. Your illustration of the table, at the end you will get a table. With this game, you have no clue if you will get anything. If at the end you get nothing, there is little chance you will get your money back. Crowd funded projects does not make you a customer, it makes you a backer. They are not the same thing.
That's not called an investment that called a very risky gamble.....
If I buy a house for investment I don't get the idea of getting a house, I get the property and I get the potential of making a profit in the future.
Its an investment because your 50 bucks may or may not get you anything. You are not paying for a product you will get. You paying into an idea. Your illustration of the table, at the end you will get a table. With this game, you have no clue if you will get anything. If at the end you get nothing, there is little chance you will get your money back. Crowd funded projects does not make you a customer, it makes you a backer. They are not the same thing.
Who cares that words have their meaning, right...?
I recently paid for a table that i designed myself. It will take 4-6 months before I get it (has to be built). It could end up being better or worse than what I imagined, it might not work with the rest of my furniture. On the other hand it could end up being passed down my family as something of an heirloom.
Its a bit of a gamble- but its just a purchase not an investment.
In addition if we take out the time factor I can apply your logic to any game purchase. Buying a game is always a bit of a risk, maybe I won't really like it, maybe it will be the best game ever- worth 10x more than the $50 I spent on it. And I can certainly apply your logic to a pre-order - even including the time factor.
Its completely delusional to call giving money to someone in the hope they will make a game you will enjoy 5 years down the track "an investment". You are just paying money for a product to be delivered down the track.
It may seem harmless enough to fool yourself in such a way if you only put down $50, but feel for the people that get sucked into to such thinking and then plonk down thousands for their "investment".
Its an investment because your 50 bucks may or may not get you anything. You are not paying for a product you will get. You paying into an idea. Your illustration of the table, at the end you will get a table. With this game, you have no clue if you will get anything. If at the end you get nothing, there is little chance you will get your money back. Crowd funded projects does not make you a customer, it makes you a backer. They are not the same thing.
That's not called an investment that called a very risky gamble.....
If I buy a house for investment I don't get the idea of getting a house, I get the property and I get the potential of making a profit in the future.
Payment is not always money. But gamble also works =-) Point is you are not a customer and if things dont work out, there is little recourse.
Comments
Any mmo released in the past five years is incredibly boring and predictable because their not mmos, but video games. Move left to right across your screen doing story quest in order by your self.
I find it hilarious and even disingenuous when a game developer with no game, who is charging for pre-orders says "look at Gorgan".
Frankly, I've looked at Gorgon and I don't see much. While I'm rooting for indie games, and would like to see it succeed, right now its just another shell of a game with do-it-yourself content being passed off as a sandbox. So lets not pretend just because people can log in for free that its somehow more deserving of a donation than another game still in development behind closed doors. I could add similar systems to the work Visionary Realms currently has completed in a matter of months and call it a "playable sandbox" too.
The government did not go to court to decide who was a customer or a donor (they were never considered investors at any time), they brought suit to punish scammers that were starting crowdfunding projects to take in a bunch of money with no intention of ever doing them. Do a quick search and read the pleadings if you are so inclined.
In the US at least, it is very easy to determine who is an investor, and who is not. When you legitimately invest in a company, you get something that recognized by law: stock, bond, ownership in the company, revenue sharing contract, something. Lacking any of that, you are not an investor in the eyes of the law. It is black letter law and very easy to prove or disprove.
In regards to crowding efforts, it is a toss up between "donor" or "customer": sometimes a product is explicitly promised for the money (like the guy that did a KS to sell 95% tungsten cubes), in which case it is no different than pre-ordering anything; if not, and if people are stupid enough to give money to some "company" without condition because that company is supposedly doing something they think is a good idea, you are a "donor". As a donor, you have practically no legal rights, as a customer, you do.
That is the case with this thing, where the devs came out and said that were using money to make a demo, not a full deliverable product. Even if the devs fulfill every promise they have made, they are still only making a demo that may or may not ever end up being a released game.
And if nothing ever releases, no one can be sued over the money taken in and nothing delivered.
However, the name crowdfunding (and the very nature of the proposition) implies you are funding a project. It is a speculative proposition from the start. You have no more certainty than any investor does that the company being funded will actually produce something. Thus, in that sense you are not a customer. Like an investor you could put in money and get nothing. Telling yourself you are a customer does not change this basic dynamic.
You continue to misunderstand. You are nothing like an investor, since you are guaranteed to never get any return on your investment. And the "incentives" aren't a return on investment, they are cheap bait to get as many people as possible to participate. They are much like that "free toaster" when you open a checking account.
Make no mistake, these companies do not care about you or your wellbeing, or your interests. They care about your money. They formulate a plan to tell you what you think you want to hear so that you are willing to give a bit of money to them, then they throw cheap bait your way to get you to donate a bit more money. Maybe they will, maybe they won't ever produce a game. Unfortunately, it's more likely that they won't.
Don't take the bait of thinking that "by me giving my money to them, I have a better chance of getting a game I want."; It doesn't work that way. These companies aren't trying to come up with the perfect game to satisfy your whim, they are trying to come up with the most effective way to convince you that your money belongs in their pocket.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I'm sorry it rustles so many jimmies that people like myself gladly back games we deem to have potential. Get over it. No more tears.
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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$50 towards a game I really want to play in the future could be worth 10x as much to me as the $50 I spend on games offering more of the same.
- I am not even a game developer in the industry at the moment, I am not in any way even associated with Pantheon's development, and I am not even associated with any of Visionary Realms' team.
Second thing that should be stated :- The quote of mine that you quoted has been corrected, as it now holds everything I stated in that post.
Third thing that should be stated :- Note that what I stated does not just come down to "Crowdfunding can work just fine for MMORPGs... take a look at Project Gorgon." It does not come down to someone such as yourself picking and choosing a single line out of context (of which I will explain that context next), adding some completely untrue spin as to who or what relation the poster quoted has to any development team, and then further twisting what was meant by the partial quote (ie- we are back to context, or meaning).
Fourth thing that should be stated :- Another thing I am not exactly sure what is true of that development team, is that I do believe I read that they had no prior experience in the gaming industry. Again, look at what they have accomplished, and realize that is with near no funding.
Fifth thing that follows from all of this :- Pantheon is being developed not because any of the members of the development team are guaranteed to make money, but because they all share a genuine love and appreciation for a united vision of what an MMORPG ought to be.
Do note that : "no member of the Pantheon development team is guaranteed to make money."This is a matter of pointing out a very mutual risk vs reward, on behalf of both the development team and those that choose to back them financially.
The entire game as any business, and when looking at the majority of attempted business start ups, could in fact naturally fail. This is a possibility.
Do you think that each and every member of this development team is somehow NOT paying out of their own pockets and time to move Pantheon forward in some ways?
Bah... Aggravation is aggravation. So before I yet again say something that will get me flagged... I'll hush now
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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I do understand the type of game you guys want to play and heck I do too. But these two have run their course and they are both trying to create what they had years ago. Which is the problem, they have no new ideas that could create a game that holds on to what they and we experienced years ago and that my friends is sad. It is like they say you can never go back and get that feeling again.
Personally am waiting for that person who has the hunger and is fearless to go and create something that will open all our eyes and say WTF why didn't we think of that. It may happen years from now or it could be happening in some basement right now. But that person will not be allowing some backer(s) to say you can't do that or it won't sell.
I just hope it happens before i die because that is what me and a few others are waiting for.
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
Its a bit of a gamble- but its just a purchase not an investment.
In addition if we take out the time factor I can apply your logic to any game purchase. Buying a game is always a bit of a risk, maybe I won't really like it, maybe it will be the best game ever- worth 10x more than the $50 I spent on it. And I can certainly apply your logic to a pre-order - even including the time factor.
Its completely delusional to call giving money to someone in the hope they will make a game you will enjoy 5 years down the track "an investment". You are just paying money for a product to be delivered down the track.
It may seem harmless enough to fool yourself in such a way if you only put down $50, but feel for the people that get sucked into to such thinking and then plonk down thousands for their "investment".
If I buy a house for investment I don't get the idea of getting a house, I get the property and I get the potential of making a profit in the future.