Originally posted by LacedOpium I've always wanted this. A western themed MMO has all of the pieces to make an outstanding MMO. The world setting, guns, costumes, we can play as Cowboys, Indians, Bandits, solo scavengers, heck you can even have other other native races who also challenged for American soil at the time such as Mexicans etc,. It has town settings with shops (AH), crafters, bars (social hubs), territory wars, anything needed for a great MMORPG is there aplenty in a Wild West themed MMORPG. I don't think the fact that that time period is not very popular at this time would hurt this game much. Many of us are craving for a change from the usual fantasy Elves and Orcs fanfare. A developer just needs to take the leap and do it. Sometimes the trail blazer is the one who reaps the rewards.
and sometimes he will lose his mortgage.
Why do something that is 99% chance that it will fail? Are you going to risk you whole career & livelihood? May be you should put your money where your mouth is.
Have to agree, if there was actual demand out there for that kind of game, then someone would have made it already. Its just not a popular theme, i think the best your going to get is the odd single player game, but, its been done already so, hard to imagine too many dev groups out there would be interested in taking that much of a risk, and yeah, as Narius has said, would anyone risk their livelihood etc on an uncertain premise, the trouble is, is that fantasy, even Scifantasy etc, is popular, cowboys, not so much, and any game that involved running around shooting indians is probably going to draw the kind of attention that would make the game Hatred look good. Not many Dev teams out there i think would be willing to take that kind of a risk, or backlash either.
The problem with your and Narius argument is too many negative assumptions. It is understood that there is a risk involved. There is a risk involved in designing and developing any MMORPG now days. But why so much pessimism. What is wrong with a sector of the gaming community that automatically criticizes anything proposed that is out of the norm. Everyone complains about WoW clones from here to high heaven but when some one proposes a different idea you criticize it to all hell. All this accomplishes in doing is ensuring that we continue to get a steady stream of WoW clones to play.
Do you even realize that by not supporting it in places such as this forum, you are subconsciously dooming it to fail already. We are the determinants of that fate. If we support it, it will do well. If we don't, it will fail. It starts right here, my friend. Now if your quest is that you would not like to see such an MMORPG and are, therefore, setting out to ensure its failure before it has even begun to take traction, then that is a different story all together. Pessimism, negative criticism, and nay-saying are MMORPGs worst enemies. A little optimism and less criticism would go a long way. Sadly, we have too much of the former and not enough of the latter in the gaming community now days.
The problem with your and Narius argument is too many negative assumptions. It is understood that there is a risk involved. There is a risk involved in designing and developing any MMORPG now days. But why so much pessimism. What is wrong with a sector of the gaming community that automatically criticizes anything proposed that is out of the norm. Everyone complains about WoW clones from here to high heaven but when some one proposes a different idea you criticize it to all hell. Do you even realize that by not supporting it in places such as this forum, you are subconsciously dooming it to fail already. We are the determinants of that fate. If we support it, it will do well. If we don't, it will fail. It starts right here, my friend. Now if your quest is that you would not like to see such an MMORPG and are, therefore, setting out to ensure its failure before it has even begun to take traction, then that is a different story all together. Pessimism and nay-saying are MMORPGs worst enemies. A little optimism and less criticism would go a long way. Sadly, we have too much of the former and not enough of the latter in the gaming community now days.
Personally, I think western theme would be cool! But I am more sick of current MMO gameplay then I am theme or setting. But I agree with most of your post I think. We should be supportive of ideas outside the MMO norm in all different forms.
Originally posted by LacedOpium I've always wanted this. A western themed MMO has all of the pieces to make an outstanding MMO. The world setting, guns, costumes, we can play as Cowboys, Indians, Bandits, solo scavengers, heck you can even have other other native races who also challenged for American soil at the time such as Mexicans etc,. It has town settings with shops (AH), crafters, bars (social hubs), territory wars, anything needed for a great MMORPG is there aplenty in a Wild West themed MMORPG. I don't think the fact that that time period is not very popular at this time would hurt this game much. Many of us are craving for a change from the usual fantasy Elves and Orcs fanfare. A developer just needs to take the leap and do it. Sometimes the trail blazer is the one who reaps the rewards.
and sometimes he will lose his mortgage.
Why do something that is 99% chance that it will fail? Are you going to risk you whole career & livelihood? May be you should put your money where your mouth is.
Have to agree, if there was actual demand out there for that kind of game, then someone would have made it already. Its just not a popular theme, i think the best your going to get is the odd single player game, but, its been done already so, hard to imagine too many dev groups out there would be interested in taking that much of a risk, and yeah, as Narius has said, would anyone risk their livelihood etc on an uncertain premise, the trouble is, is that fantasy, even Scifantasy etc, is popular, cowboys, not so much, and any game that involved running around shooting indians is probably going to draw the kind of attention that would make the game Hatred look good. Not many Dev teams out there i think would be willing to take that kind of a risk, or backlash either.
The problem with your and Narius argument is to many negative assumptions. It is understood that there is a risk involved. There is a risk involved in designing and developing any MMORPG now days. But why so much pessimism. What is wrong with a sector of the gaming community that automatically criticize anything proposed that is out of the norm. You complain about WoW clones from here to high heaven but when some one proposes a different idea you criticize it to all hell. Do you even realize that by not supporting it places such as forums, you are subconsciously dooming it to fail already. We are the determinants of that fate. If we support it, it will do well. If we don't, it will fail. It starts right here, my friend. Now if your quest is that you would not like to see such an MMORPG and are, therefore, setting out to ensure its failure before it has even begun to take traction, then that is a different point all together. Pessimism and nay-saying are MMORPGs worst enemies. A little optimism and less criticism would go a long way. Sadly, we get to much of the former and not enough of the latter in the gaming community.
Despite the verbiage, this isn't really about being negative about games, one of the reasons MMO's are so popular is because its fantasy, its escapist, call it what you will, but any game based on periods of history, whether they are controversial or not, has its own problems, one of the reasons fantasy games are popular, is because they are not bound by those limitations, by the same token however, generic denunciations will not go unchallenged unless you are prepared to back them up with some kind of argument as to why you feel that those arguments are wrong, at least not if you intend to have your counter arguments have any weight. For instance, you could make an argument based on why you think a 'cowboy era' MMO would be popular, despite certain aspects of historical significance, it would lend your argument far more credence, although i think most would agree that the whole cowboys vs indians thing is perhaps a touchy, if not taboo subject.
Originally posted by DMKano If you can provide solid market research data showing that there is enough interest from players to justify the investment, it would be made.
The thing is - western theme anything is not very popular at this time - no western movies are being made, there are no popular western themed anything right now. Its an unpopular theme at this time.
Despite the verbiage, this isn't really about being negative about games, one of the reasons MMO's are so popular is because its fantasy, its escapist, call it what you will, but any game based on periods of history, whether they are controversial or not, has its own problems, one of the reasons fantasy games are popular, is because they are not bound by those limitations, by the same token however, generic denunciations will not go unchallenged unless you are prepared to back them up with some kind of argument as to why you feel that those arguments are wrong, at least not if you intend to have your counter arguments have any weight. For instance, you could make an argument based on why you think a 'cowboy era' MMO would be popular, despite certain aspects of historical significance, it would lend your argument far more credence, although i think most would agree that the whole cowboys vs indians thing is perhaps a touchy, if not taboo subject.
Great. Then let's keep playing it safe and not even try. Because it is obvious that the better alternative is to just keep the WoW clones coming. That should keep us all happy.
BTW, I did make the argument in my initial post why I thought it would be popular. And that argument is simply that it has all of the pieces that would translate well into an MMORPG.
Think a Wild West virtual world MMORPG could work.
But might be more succesfull in europe then it might be in the states depending how deep the games delves into accurate history or takes a more other world dimension type of western.
But developing a western MMORPG to be succesfull shouldn't go all historic. Give me all western settings with a twist of either fantasy or some sci-fi into it. But still remaining true to "cowboys and indians" but in a more balanced fashion.
hahaha just thought of a similar game like SWG but then with all western settings....I would play...hehe
Great. Then let's keep playing it safe and not even try. Because it is obvious that the better alternative is to just keep the WoW clones coming. That should keep us all happy.
1) No one keeps you from trying. You can mortgage your house and try it. However, if you want to try with OTHER PEOPLE's money (like investors), you have to have a more compelling story.
2) Who says WoW clones is the only alternatives. In fact, no AAA companies are doing that anymore. MOBAs, instanced pvp games, card games, action RPG-ish MMOs .. there are tons of alternatives. And yes, i don't know about you, but I am quite happy about the varieties of online games.
Think a Wild West virtual world MMORPG could work.
But might be more succesfull in europe then it might be in the states depending how deep the games delves into accurate history or takes a more other world dimension type of western.
But developing a western MMORPG to be succesfull shouldn't go all historic. Give me all western settings with a twist of either fantasy or some sci-fi into it. But still remaining true to "cowboys and indians" but in a more balanced fashion.
hahaha just thought of a similar game like SWG but then with all western settings....I would play...hehe
Exactly. See you get it, Reklaw.
Its all about giving all sides equal respect and honor, and avoiding any type of slander, stereo-typing, or disrespect.
Great. Then let's keep playing it safe and not even try. Because it is obvious that the better alternative is to just keep the WoW clones coming. That should keep us all happy.
1) No one keeps you from trying. You can mortgage your house and try it. However, if you want to try with OTHER PEOPLE's money (like investors), you have to have a more compelling story.
2) Who says WoW clones is the only alternatives. In fact, no AAA companies are doing that anymore. MOBAs, instanced pvp games, card games, action RPG-ish MMOs .. there are tons of alternatives. And yes, i don't know about you, but I am quite happy about the varieties of online games.
Ok, we get it. You and Phry don't think its a good idea. I respect your opinions.
Anyway, to get back on the optimistic tip. The costumes would be fantastic with a good variety of colors and western fashions. A good variety of weapons ie., colt 45s, rifles, heck even lasos. Horses for traveling solo and stage coaches for groups. Vast landscapes with beautiful sunrises and sunsets. Canteens a la SWG. PvP duels. The ideas are endless. Its a setting i would enjoy immensely.
A historic western MMO would basically be a manual labor/agrarian survival sim. There wasn't much violence and it wasn't "cowboys vs indians" which is not only a gigantic pile of myth, but cowboys weren't gunslingers, they were ranchers who herded cattle and their jobs were long and boring. The biggest dangers people faced during that time was disease and famine.
Regardless, I don't think video games are in the habit of historical accuracies, so I'm not really worried about it. But the real take away from this thread is that some people don't grasp that the burden of proof is on the claim. You make a claim, it's your job to support it, not someone else's job to refute it.
And no, you can't use a single data point (aka Red Dead Redemption sales) as proof, that's a fallacy of incomplete evidence. All we know from this thread is that someone thinks saying "a lot" is a fact and we still have no idea of whether or not a Wild West MMO is in demand.
A historic western MMO would basically be a manual labor/agrarian survival sim. There wasn't much violence and it wasn't "cowboys vs indians" which is not only a gigantic pile of myth, but cowboys weren't gunslingers, they were ranchers who herded cattle and their jobs were long and boring. The biggest dangers people faced during that time was disease and famine.
Regardless, I don't think video games are in the habit of historical accuracies, so I'm not really worried about it. But the real take away from this thread is that some people don't grasp that the burden of proof is on the claim. You make a claim, it's your job to support it, not someone else's job to refute it.
And no, you can't use a single data point (aka Red Dead Redemption sales) as proof, that's a fallacy of incomplete evidence. All we know from this thread is that someone thinks saying "a lot" is a fact and we still have no idea of whether or not a Wild West MMO is in demand.
How is saying "a lot" not a fact. A lot can be anything from five people to an infinite amount of people. It simply means that there are, in fact, many people who are interested. No figures are given to make it not a fact. Like I said, there are "a lot" of people expressing interest on this thread alone, not to mention many more on the internet, to prove that "fact."
(red) No we don't. Nor will we ever know if we don't try.
Anyway, to get back on the optimistic tip. The costumes would be fantastic with a good variety of colors and western fashions. A good variety of weapons ie., colt 45s, rifles, heck even lasos. Horses for traveling solo and stage coaches for groups. Vast landscapes with beautiful sunrises and sunsets. Canteens a la SWG. PvP duels. The ideas are endless. Its a setting i would enjoy immensely.
where is the gameplay. A setting does not make a game.
If i want to just look at lanscape, sunrises and sunsets, i go look at pictures, you don't need a game for that.
All you mention is pvp duels ... which is more or less already in shooters. What is the unique compeling gameplay here? You are essentially talking about FPS combat here. And what about progression? Increasing my shooting accuracy by 1% each level does not sound fun, and i doubt you can add flashy skills in a western setting.
(red) No we don't. Nor will we ever know if we don't try.
Are you going to spend $50M to find out?
Or may be game companies have done marketing research (you know, you can run focus groups with mock up and stuff, right?) and find out there is no demand.
At least there is no indication that devs are confident enough of a demand to do something about it.
If you really want it badly enough and feel there is a market then start your own kick starter. As executive director, if interest was shown and a certain milestone was reached you would begin looking for a developer interested in such a venture. If you got the community behind you, it could work and all you would have to do is set the first milestone and turn it over to people who wouldn't mine working with a fan on such a project.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
in good graphics with a smooth engine. just like red dead redemption.
ive been waiting for one to be made forever.
no browser shit or moba.
I think it could be a success, would need to be a sandbox style game and offer cool cowboy gang stuff...look at dead red redemption on the xbox...that game was a massive success.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
At the character creation screen I pick my favorite cowboy hat, holster and chaps. My gunslinger would have a really bushy moustache ( "with great moustache comes great responsibility" ).
I'd be excited about my new character and enter the game. The first thing I see is a fellow gunslinger with a "!" over his head and he wants me to gather 10 tumbleweeds.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
in good graphics with a smooth engine. just like red dead redemption.
ive been waiting for one to be made forever.
no browser shit or moba.
yes..
I do think that Wild West is perfect for a 'building' kind of MMO though. Try to settle the land, try to keep your horses from theives, or be a thief, dangers from natives, finding oil, starting a small village, railroads, trading routes, hunt for gold.
this kind of thing i think is perfect for that time era.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
in good graphics with a smooth engine. just like red dead redemption.
ive been waiting for one to be made forever.
no browser shit or moba.
yes..
I do think that Wild West is perfect for a 'building' kind of MMO though. Try to settle the land, try to keep your horses from theives, or be a thief, dangers from natives, finding oil, starting a small village, railroads, trading routes, hunt for gold.
this kind of thing i think is perfect for that time era.
Yes, you could have bandits and thieves, land barons, gold rushes, camping, bounties ... i mean the possibilities are endless. It doesn't have to be a period piece, and it doesn't necessarily have to have Indians as per the period, there could just be natives to the land. This just needs to have some thought put into it. Open and creative minds make innovation possible.
At the character creation screen I pick my favorite cowboy hat, holster and chaps. My gunslinger would have a really bushy moustache ( "with great moustache comes great responsibility" ).
I'd be excited about my new character and enter the game. The first thing I see is a fellow gunslinger with a "!" over his head and he wants me to gather 10 tumbleweeds.
No, he wants you to to kill the Sheriff or rob the local bank. :-) Make it a western version of grand theft auto. Jack horses, Hold up the stage coach, do some jobs for the local cattle baron, or work your way up from a lowly deputy to a US Marshall or Texas Ranger.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Devs really should stop making games they think we want because they've proven time and time again that they have no clue what we want.. make something you want and convince us we want it also instead.
If you can provide solid market research data showing that there is enough interest from players to justify the investment, it would be made.
The thing is - western theme anything is not very popular at this time - no western movies are being made, there are no popular western themed anything right now. Its an unpopular theme at this time.
But, but.... what if they made it a Wild West MMO where you play a superhero gunslinger who fights zombies and rides dragons?
Or cowboy vs aliens...
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Comments
The problem with your and Narius argument is too many negative assumptions. It is understood that there is a risk involved. There is a risk involved in designing and developing any MMORPG now days. But why so much pessimism. What is wrong with a sector of the gaming community that automatically criticizes anything proposed that is out of the norm. Everyone complains about WoW clones from here to high heaven but when some one proposes a different idea you criticize it to all hell. All this accomplishes in doing is ensuring that we continue to get a steady stream of WoW clones to play.
Do you even realize that by not supporting it in places such as this forum, you are subconsciously dooming it to fail already. We are the determinants of that fate. If we support it, it will do well. If we don't, it will fail. It starts right here, my friend. Now if your quest is that you would not like to see such an MMORPG and are, therefore, setting out to ensure its failure before it has even begun to take traction, then that is a different story all together. Pessimism, negative criticism, and nay-saying are MMORPGs worst enemies. A little optimism and less criticism would go a long way. Sadly, we have too much of the former and not enough of the latter in the gaming community now days.
Personally, I think western theme would be cool! But I am more sick of current MMO gameplay then I am theme or setting. But I agree with most of your post I think. We should be supportive of ideas outside the MMO norm in all different forms.
Founder and Lead developer of Factions. The complete fantasy sandbox survival MMO.
Factions indiedb Page (most up to date info) | Factions Website
Despite the verbiage, this isn't really about being negative about games, one of the reasons MMO's are so popular is because its fantasy, its escapist, call it what you will, but any game based on periods of history, whether they are controversial or not, has its own problems, one of the reasons fantasy games are popular, is because they are not bound by those limitations, by the same token however, generic denunciations will not go unchallenged unless you are prepared to back them up with some kind of argument as to why you feel that those arguments are wrong, at least not if you intend to have your counter arguments have any weight. For instance, you could make an argument based on why you think a 'cowboy era' MMO would be popular, despite certain aspects of historical significance, it would lend your argument far more credence, although i think most would agree that the whole cowboys vs indians thing is perhaps a touchy, if not taboo subject.
The multiplayer wasnt popular at all.
You're Welcome.
Great. Then let's keep playing it safe and not even try. Because it is obvious that the better alternative is to just keep the WoW clones coming. That should keep us all happy.
BTW, I did make the argument in my initial post why I thought it would be popular. And that argument is simply that it has all of the pieces that would translate well into an MMORPG.
does it have to be historically accurate?
i mean fantasy i usually just wild spins of our medieval times
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Think a Wild West virtual world MMORPG could work.
But might be more succesfull in europe then it might be in the states depending how deep the games delves into accurate history or takes a more other world dimension type of western.
But developing a western MMORPG to be succesfull shouldn't go all historic. Give me all western settings with a twist of either fantasy or some sci-fi into it. But still remaining true to "cowboys and indians" but in a more balanced fashion.
hahaha just thought of a similar game like SWG but then with all western settings....I would play...hehe
I've already made that point but they've ignored it. It just doesn't fit their argument.
1) No one keeps you from trying. You can mortgage your house and try it. However, if you want to try with OTHER PEOPLE's money (like investors), you have to have a more compelling story.
2) Who says WoW clones is the only alternatives. In fact, no AAA companies are doing that anymore. MOBAs, instanced pvp games, card games, action RPG-ish MMOs .. there are tons of alternatives. And yes, i don't know about you, but I am quite happy about the varieties of online games.
Exactly. See you get it, Reklaw.
Its all about giving all sides equal respect and honor, and avoiding any type of slander, stereo-typing, or disrespect.
Ok, we get it. You and Phry don't think its a good idea. I respect your opinions.
Anyway, to get back on the optimistic tip. The costumes would be fantastic with a good variety of colors and western fashions. A good variety of weapons ie., colt 45s, rifles, heck even lasos. Horses for traveling solo and stage coaches for groups. Vast landscapes with beautiful sunrises and sunsets. Canteens a la SWG. PvP duels. The ideas are endless. Its a setting i would enjoy immensely.
A historic western MMO would basically be a manual labor/agrarian survival sim. There wasn't much violence and it wasn't "cowboys vs indians" which is not only a gigantic pile of myth, but cowboys weren't gunslingers, they were ranchers who herded cattle and their jobs were long and boring. The biggest dangers people faced during that time was disease and famine.
Regardless, I don't think video games are in the habit of historical accuracies, so I'm not really worried about it. But the real take away from this thread is that some people don't grasp that the burden of proof is on the claim. You make a claim, it's your job to support it, not someone else's job to refute it.
And no, you can't use a single data point (aka Red Dead Redemption sales) as proof, that's a fallacy of incomplete evidence. All we know from this thread is that someone thinks saying "a lot" is a fact and we still have no idea of whether or not a Wild West MMO is in demand.
How is saying "a lot" not a fact. A lot can be anything from five people to an infinite amount of people. It simply means that there are, in fact, many people who are interested. No figures are given to make it not a fact. Like I said, there are "a lot" of people expressing interest on this thread alone, not to mention many more on the internet, to prove that "fact."
(red) No we don't. Nor will we ever know if we don't try.
where is the gameplay. A setting does not make a game.
If i want to just look at lanscape, sunrises and sunsets, i go look at pictures, you don't need a game for that.
All you mention is pvp duels ... which is more or less already in shooters. What is the unique compeling gameplay here? You are essentially talking about FPS combat here. And what about progression? Increasing my shooting accuracy by 1% each level does not sound fun, and i doubt you can add flashy skills in a western setting.
Are you going to spend $50M to find out?
Or may be game companies have done marketing research (you know, you can run focus groups with mock up and stuff, right?) and find out there is no demand.
At least there is no indication that devs are confident enough of a demand to do something about it.
i could start making one that ticks two of the three... Wild West and good graphics.... Not sure about a smooth engine...
It should be done in 6-7 years... I hope you will wait.
This have been a good conversation
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I think it could be a success, would need to be a sandbox style game and offer cool cowboy gang stuff...look at dead red redemption on the xbox...that game was a massive success.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
I can see it now...
At the character creation screen I pick my favorite cowboy hat, holster and chaps. My gunslinger would have a really bushy moustache ( "with great moustache comes great responsibility" ).
I'd be excited about my new character and enter the game. The first thing I see is a fellow gunslinger with a "!" over his head and he wants me to gather 10 tumbleweeds.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
yes..
I do think that Wild West is perfect for a 'building' kind of MMO though. Try to settle the land, try to keep your horses from theives, or be a thief, dangers from natives, finding oil, starting a small village, railroads, trading routes, hunt for gold.
this kind of thing i think is perfect for that time era.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Yes, you could have bandits and thieves, land barons, gold rushes, camping, bounties ... i mean the possibilities are endless. It doesn't have to be a period piece, and it doesn't necessarily have to have Indians as per the period, there could just be natives to the land. This just needs to have some thought put into it. Open and creative minds make innovation possible.
No, he wants you to to kill the Sheriff or rob the local bank. :-) Make it a western version of grand theft auto. Jack horses, Hold up the stage coach, do some jobs for the local cattle baron, or work your way up from a lowly deputy to a US Marshall or Texas Ranger.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Or cowboy vs aliens...
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey