Is EQNext Vaporware?

iatesand

MrSnuffles said:

iatesand said:

MrSnuffles said:

The EQ:Next Website is a Marketing Platform to sell Landmark. nothing else. They will milk Landmark as long as it remains profitable and then drop it like a hot potato.

You are probably right, EQ1 is still doing good and considering the significantly cheaper server infrastructure it might even be the best performing in terms of bottom line.

I feel bad with interrupting your post with facts, it always seems so anti dramatic to actually post facts and leave the wild speculation to the tin foil hat people.. but

the EQ:N wepage currently has 33 post on it
7 (21%)of those are EQ:N workshops where they talk about lore of the new game and show off the Landmark building contest. These are specifically EQ:N related events even though they were made in Landmark
1 (3%) producer letter that talks about mostly EQ:N stuff
7 (21%) Round table post that are 100% EQ:N related content
8 (24%) twitters that are in someway aimed at EQ:N related content or just EQ stuff in general 
10 (30%)4 WiKia  and  6 misc post about crap.. I didn't read them

For a marketing platform made only to sell Landmark.. they are doing a very bad job of it. If anything  seeings as over 50% of the topics are based on EQ:N lore and things to come, its almost like they are trying to promote a new game in development or something. Crazy!

As for the potato.. that is once again uneducated speculation. Unless you have some insider information... we would love it if you shared.

 

Nice try but don't distort the facts inflating the numbers by counting wikia howto's and tweets litke: 

Voxels! #TheOscars2015 are catching up to @everquest_next! or 
For the adventurers of Norrath?@everquest @everquestii@LandmarkGame http://t.co/glbEI2MkMz

Which the last one is clearly about Landmark.

Landmark: 7 Workshops, Producer Letter, Tweets, Marketing reminders about buying access etc... (ALL of them NEW)
EQ:N: 1 Producer Letter, 2 Polls, 3 Lore posts. (ALL of them 200 days or older)

50% are not about EQ:N Lore and things to come. That's it. End of story. Don't try to bullshit everyone with your made up facts.

[mod edit] I am just stating facts, here is the difference in-case you are not sure..

The EQ:Next Website is a Marketing Platform to sell Landmark. nothing else. They will milk Landmark as long as it remains profitable and then drop it like a hot potato. 

that is a opinion ans can not in any way be supported by any facts

The EQ:Next Website is mostly articles that are in reference to the development of the game

is that a opinion? lets do some math...

21% +3% +21% = 45% (I know not 50% yet)  The tweets them-self if you really want to break it down is 4 directly about EQ:N  1 about landmark and 3 about general EQ crap ( I did say there was random stuff in there)the math say.. its fact. How can you even argue that point? Just count on your fingers and toes and then divide by the total

[mod edit]  

Nanfoodle

Burntvet said:

SomethingUnusual said:

I think people are missing a reality fact here... Games take years to develop... Years, not months, not days, years. A challenge for you if this concept eludes you, grab a C and OpenGL book and write a simple pong game, my bet will be that alone will take you a few weeks without experience, experienced maybe a week.

No news is good news, it means people are doing their job instead of wasting time chatting about what they are working on.

Can this thread die now?

Except for the fact that DBG, which is now owned by a venture capital company, is not going to fund or be funded for MMO development "for years" as you say.

That is not what venture capital companies are, or what they do. Or how they operate.

VC firms are about short term profit, period.

Go grab a book on corporate finance and read for 10 minutes on venture capital take overs.

It is no accident that they fired half of the people working on EQN, especially many/most of the senior ones, after they bought out SOE. This alone should as big a red flag as people want that this game, as envisioned, is not going the distance.

Personally, I think it is even money that "EQN" will either fold, or be released in some stripped down, Neverwinter-like form. All that will be left to any EQN game that releases, in regards to the original Everquest, will be the name.

If CN was going to close down EQN because they dont want to fund making an MMO that takes year to make, they would have done that already. Not saying it wont get shut down, who knows DGC may fail with all their R&D but your reasoning is flawed. By your logic the game should have been shut down last year and we have seen clear evidence it still being made. 

Daffid011

SomethingUnusual said:

I think people are missing a reality fact here... Games take years to develop... Years, not months, not days, years.

This project started in 2008 and the developers are still in the concept stages in 2015. 

Just how many years do you think it takes to make a game?

A few people will offer a bucket load of excuses, but the fact remains that 7-8 years development has not produced a viable game.

Distopia

Burntvet said:

Except for the fact that DBG, which is now owned by a venture capital company, is not going to fund or be funded for MMO development "for years" as you say.

That is not what venture capital companies are, or what they do. Or how they operate.

VC firms are about short term profit, period.

Then they bought the whole company for nothing, unless they have something as "big" planned to replace it with. On top of that, as Nan pointed out they'd just be putting on a show for nothing according to your logic... one that costs them money..

Deivos

Distopia said:

Burntvet said:

Except for the fact that DBG, which is now owned by a venture capital company, is not going to fund or be funded for MMO development "for years" as you say.

That is not what venture capital companies are, or what they do. Or how they operate.

VC firms are about short term profit, period.

Then they bought the whole company for nothing, unless they have something as "big" planned to replace it with. On top of that, as Nan pointed out they'd just be putting on a show for nothing according to your logic... one that costs them money..

I'd have to reiterate this. If the only interest was in short-term profit, then DBG would not be supporting any active titles really. They'd be shoring up major issues with some patches and weaning off all their titles from support until they could close them off, and any remaining effort would likely go into completing the in-development features of the Forgelite engine and subsequently turning SOE/DBG into something akin to how Epic Games operates, with some game development of their own, but a large push on monetizing their engine instead.

Honestly, if I didn't have an interest in seeing the progression of MMOs directly then that's probably the strategy I would go with because after doing due diligence on Forgelite in the past, they have a solid engine they could be licensing out.

iatesand

Burntvet said:

SomethingUnusual said:

I think people are missing a reality fact here... Games take years to develop... Years, not months, not days, years. A challenge for you if this concept eludes you, grab a C and OpenGL book and write a simple pong game, my bet will be that alone will take you a few weeks without experience, experienced maybe a week.

No news is good news, it means people are doing their job instead of wasting time chatting about what they are working on.

Can this thread die now?

Except for the fact that DBG, which is now owned by a venture capital company, is not going to fund or be funded for MMO development "for years" as you say.

That is not what venture capital companies are, or what they do. Or how they operate.

VC firms are about short term profit, period.

Go grab a book on corporate finance and read for 10 minutes on venture capital take overs.

It is no accident that they fired half of the people working on EQN, especially many/most of the senior ones, after they bought out SOE. This alone should as big a red flag as people want that this game, as envisioned, is not going the distance.

Personally, I think it is even money that "EQN" will either fold, or be released in some stripped down, Neverwinter-like form. All that will be left to any EQN game that releases, in regards to the original Everquest, will be the name.

I was under the impression that CN was more of a long term investment agency:

Founded in 2000, Columbus Nova ("CN") is a multi-strategy investment firm managing over $15.0 billion of assets through its own funds and affiliated portfolio companies. CN has a broad investment mandate which allows investments across all levels of the capital structure from senior secured debt to equity. CN takes a value-oriented, long-term view to investing and seeks consistent returns with an emphasis on capital preservation. CN is headquartered in New York. 

Burntvet

iatesand said:

Burntvet said:

SomethingUnusual said:

I think people are missing a reality fact here... Games take years to develop... Years, not months, not days, years. A challenge for you if this concept eludes you, grab a C and OpenGL book and write a simple pong game, my bet will be that alone will take you a few weeks without experience, experienced maybe a week.

No news is good news, it means people are doing their job instead of wasting time chatting about what they are working on.

Can this thread die now?

Except for the fact that DBG, which is now owned by a venture capital company, is not going to fund or be funded for MMO development "for years" as you say.

That is not what venture capital companies are, or what they do. Or how they operate.

VC firms are about short term profit, period.

Go grab a book on corporate finance and read for 10 minutes on venture capital take overs.

It is no accident that they fired half of the people working on EQN, especially many/most of the senior ones, after they bought out SOE. This alone should as big a red flag as people want that this game, as envisioned, is not going the distance.

Personally, I think it is even money that "EQN" will either fold, or be released in some stripped down, Neverwinter-like form. All that will be left to any EQN game that releases, in regards to the original Everquest, will be the name.

I was under the impression that CN was more of a long term investment agency:

Founded in 2000, Columbus Nova ("CN") is a multi-strategy investment firm managing over $15.0 billion of assets through its own funds and affiliated portfolio companies. CN has a broad investment mandate which allows investments across all levels of the capital structure from senior secured debt to equity. CN takes a value-oriented, long-term view to investing and seeks consistent returns with an emphasis on capital preservation. CN is headquartered in New York. 

Because Russian organized crime figures are known for taking the long term strategy for investing? (Look into to CN if you care to, besides re-posting PR boilerplate description from their website; in investing circles they are somewhat infamous.)

What DGB is probably doing, is seeing if they can get a stripped down EQN ready for an Early 2016 launch. If not, it will be released as is, or just dumped.

Were this not the case, they would not have fired most of the senior design people and cut staff.

Wizardry

I am surprised this topic sees so much attention being that DB itself gives us VERY little to go.

I would think everyone realizes it is not vapor ware as of yet,if something financially comes up then it could turn into vaporware but we are not at that point.News on the internet travels VERY fast,we would hear about lay offs or a disgruntled worker ,something would come out within a day of it happening.

However the bigger picture is more important to me.What have they shown us that THEY the team have done?I am not talking gamer creativity and assets but the  team itself?IMO VERY little,so are they hiding their work from us or is this just a really small team doing very little?

I still hope for a great game ,a small side of me is even willing to believe in miracles however my gut feeling is that it would rather have 30 hot wings in it than digest any hope of a Triple A  product coming out.What i truly believe will happen is a shallow unfinished game full of player made assets and basically another Landmark but with mobs assets and quests.Innovative?? Aside from Parkour and Voxel farm i do not expect that what so ever,i expect MUCH less of a game than EQ2 that relies on the Voxels theme.

iatesand

Because Russian organized crime figures are known for taking the long term strategy for investing? (Look into to CN if you care to, besides re-posting PR boilerplate description from their website; in investing circles they are somewhat infamous.)

What DGB is probably doing, is seeing if they can get a stripped down EQN ready for an Early 2016 launch. If not, it will be released as is, or just dumped.

Were this not the case, they would not have fired most of the senior design people and cut staff.

I'm not saying that that statement is borderline bringing out the tin foil hats.. just because CN affiliate of the Renova Group dosn't in any way mean that the Renova Group is ran by a Russian crime lord and that these "organized crime figures" are secretly running the show.  I mean.. come on dude that is just as bad as some of the crap Snuffels says. 

But I have to say I am not in the know when it comes to organized crime figures from Russia, so maybe your completely correct. And maybe you are a wearing a tin foil hat! I'm not here to judge you. 

I actually agree with you that we will see a EQ:N that has been stripped down somewhat due to time constraints. I just hope they keep enough of the spirit of the game alive to still feel like EQ

Daffid011

Deivos said:

Then they bought the whole company for nothing, unless they have something as "big" planned to replace it with. On top of that, as Nan pointed out they'd just be putting on a show for nothing according to your logic... one that costs them money..

I'd have to reiterate this. If the only interest was in short-term profit, then DBG would not be supporting any active titles really. They'd be shoring up major issues with some patches and weaning off all their titles from support until they could close them off, and any remaining effort would likely go into completing the in-development features of the Forgelite engine and subsequently turning SOE/DBG into something akin to how Epic Games operates, with some game development of their own, but a large push on monetizing their engine instead.

Honestly, if I didn't have an interest in seeing the progression of MMOs directly then that's probably the strategy I would go with because after doing due diligence on Forgelite in the past, they have a solid engine they could be licensing out.

Why would Daybreak shut down games that are generating money or could be sold off to generate money?  SOE already shut down Vanguard, Free Realms, Clone Wars and most of the other massively under performing games a few months before the sale of the division.  Most likely it was part of the sales agreement.  Odds are Columbus Nova did the math and figured they could make money running those games with reduced staff, at least for a period of time. 

The idea that Columbus Nova was/is really interested in developing the forgelite engine makes much more sense than the idea they felt they could make a better EQN game than SOE with only half the staff.   At the very least it would be expected they would bring in someone new to lead/fix the EQN project or keep the lore/story/vision people.

However if EQN/Landmark are nothing but testing and development tools for making the forgelite engine, then none of those people were needed. 

Fractal_Analogy

Wizardry said:

I am surprised this topic sees so much attention being that DB itself gives us VERY little to go.

I would think everyone realizes it is not vapor ware as of yet,if something financially comes up then it could turn into vaporware but we are not at that point.News on the internet travels VERY fast,we would hear about lay offs or a disgruntled worker ,something would come out within a day of it happening.

However the bigger picture is more important to me.What have they shown us that THEY the team have done?I am not talking gamer creativity and assets but the  team itself?IMO VERY little,so are they hiding their work from us or is this just a really small team doing very little?

I still hope for a great game ,a small side of me is even willing to believe in miracles however my gut feeling is that it would rather have 30 hot wings in it than digest any hope of a Triple A  product coming out.What i truly believe will happen is a shallow unfinished game full of player made assets and basically another Landmark but with mobs assets and quests.Innovative?? Aside from Parkour and Voxel farm i do not expect that what so ever,i expect MUCH less of a game than EQ2 that relies on the Voxels theme.

An idea starts out as vaporware, then turn into something tangible.

If a game is tangible, then it is no longer vaporware. If it can been seen, touch and played (ie: alpha), and then the game looses funding, or crashes. It does not turn back into vaporware, it is just a failed project.


Vaporware means it has no tangible play-ability, or working components, etc.  Usually means it has more hype, than actual coding or software. Vaporware doesn't mean flop, it means it is just theory and not actually put together, or real.

Allein

EQN might be vaporware now or in the future, but this pointless conversation sure is a live and kicking.

Is it Vaporware?

Yes
No
Yes
No
Yes
No
Yes
No

At this point does it really matter?

Either you are hopeful something eventually happens, hope it burns, or don't care. Regardless, we the know it alls of the internet aren't going to prove anything nor make the game or devs change in any way.

People can't even decide on what Vaporware even means, pretty hard to discuss such a matter.

time007

i guess if it gets cancelled before it ever goes live ever, then its vaporware.  or if its scrapped completely or sth its vaporware? i guess you could even go so far as to say, if a game is cancelled its terminated/is vaporware.  so does terminated mean vaporware? i dunno.

tarodin

I think they are planning a major update of the current info...

Nanfoodle

tarodin said:

I think they are planning a major update of the current info...

I think we wont hear much in depth till they get the R&D projects working. 

MrSnuffles

iatesand said:

You never cease to amaze me, I am not giving you opinions guy, I am just stating facts, here is the difference in-case you are not sure..

The EQ:Next Website is a Marketing Platform to sell Landmark. nothing else. They will milk Landmark as long as it remains profitable and then drop it like a hot potato. 

that is a opinion ans can not in any way be supported by any facts

The EQ:Next Website is mostly articles that are in reference to the development of the game

is that a opinion? lets do some math...

21% +3% +21% = 45% (I know not 50% yet)  The tweets them-self if you really want to break it down is 4 directly about EQ:N  1 about landmark and 3 about general EQ crap ( I did say there was random stuff in there)the math say.. its fact. How can you even argue that point? Just count on your fingers and toes and then divide by the total

What is the world is the matter with you?  You make these ignorant , uneducated post based on your own fancy and then when somebody calls you on it you make up more crap what completely ignoring the facts at hand.  

Look guy.. the EQ:Next web page has almost nothing at all about Landmark. It is clearly without question not a "Marketing Platform" to sell Landmark.  Unless you watch those workshops and think.. I would love to get in on this building thing! I have to admit some of the stuff people build is amazing good. Do yourself a favor go and actually count the number of Landmark post then take a tall glass of STFU (Stop Talking for Urowngood of course) before you start going off about something you are clearly mistaken on.

We all understand that in your opinion EQ:N will never exist (despite the people who are making it saying otherwise) and that you feel that Landmark is a crappy game because it has never been optimized. (a point where you are correct, it could run much better and needs work)

We get it guy, you have a so many uneducated opinions that you can't share them fast enough before you think of the next ignorant post about something that is factually incorrect. But really kid, if you could maybe back up one of your post with the smallest fact that would be great. 

Wait a minute .. your trolling us! I get it. You are just trolling, silly me I am sorry I didn't see it before, I feel so silly now, I could not understand how any one person could be so stupid but your not at all your just acting that way to troll.  You got me man~! good one.  

No need to make anything up. Everyone can go to the Website and see that it has no recent information about EQ:N but rather a lot of information about Landmark, e-books and EQ:Worlds.

The last substantial post about EQ:N was 90 days ago in a Producers Letter that talks a lot about Landmark and EQ:N. The next substantial post is 300 days old.

Face the facts.

PS: Please refrain from calling me kid, guy or troll. It does not help your point and it is against the rules. Thank you.

bmw66

Game died on the vine months ago.

MrSnuffles

Nanfoodle said:

MrSnuffles said:

No need to make anything up. Everyone can go to the Website and see that it has no recent information about EQ:N but rather a lot of information about Landmark, e-books and EQ:Worlds.

The last substantial post about EQ:N was 90 days ago in a Producers Letter that talks a lot about Landmark and EQ:N. The next substantial post is 300 days old.

Face the facts.

PS: Please refrain from calling me kid, guy or troll. It does not help your point and it is against the rules. Thank you.

Hard not to make fun of you when you are wrong 99% of the time. When you make up facts you cant back. When people post links to show you are wrong and you keep holding onto the lie like a dog with a bone. Its like a train wreck, its sad to see but you just cant stop watching. lol. Any ways I have spent enough time replying to you to show you how wrong you are over and over again. Others have as well. I will let you have your bone this time =-)

You just need to go to the EQ:N website and there are the facts. Do it. It's as easy as clicking this link.

Proof me wrong. Post your links. I have not seen anything from you that would be construed as an argument because you don't have any. This last post is a perfect example of it. No argument, just personal attacks and no substance.

Deivos

Daffid011 said:

Deivos said:

Then they bought the whole company for nothing, unless they have something as "big" planned to replace it with. On top of that, as Nan pointed out they'd just be putting on a show for nothing according to your logic... one that costs them money..

I'd have to reiterate this. If the only interest was in short-term profit, then DBG would not be supporting any active titles really. They'd be shoring up major issues with some patches and weaning off all their titles from support until they could close them off, and any remaining effort would likely go into completing the in-development features of the Forgelite engine and subsequently turning SOE/DBG into something akin to how Epic Games operates, with some game development of their own, but a large push on monetizing their engine instead.

Honestly, if I didn't have an interest in seeing the progression of MMOs directly then that's probably the strategy I would go with because after doing due diligence on Forgelite in the past, they have a solid engine they could be licensing out.

Why would Daybreak shut down games that are generating money or could be sold off to generate money?  SOE already shut down Vanguard, Free Realms, Clone Wars and most of the other massively under performing games a few months before the sale of the division.  Most likely it was part of the sales agreement.  Odds are Columbus Nova did the math and figured they could make money running those games with reduced staff, at least for a period of time. 

The idea that Columbus Nova was/is really interested in developing the forgelite engine makes much more sense than the idea they felt they could make a better EQN game than SOE with only half the staff.   At the very least it would be expected they would bring in someone new to lead/fix the EQN project or keep the lore/story/vision people.

However if EQN/Landmark are nothing but testing and development tools for making the forgelite engine, then none of those people were needed. 

That was rather my point.

I doubt their perception is that they could make a better game so much as they can see what the investment into the title has been and in doing due diligence might have considered the product far enough along to see it's completion at least in some form rather than being culled as a financial loss.

EDIT: As for the shutting down the other titles commentary. My post didn't say they'd simply shut down titles, but that if they did have any intent to do so, it would be by weaning the titles off of support, not simply closing them.

The titles that were failing outright they had to shut down regardless of who was buying, it's simply a bad mark and they wouldn't be selling the company with that extra cost floating overhead.

Nanfoodle

Deivos said:

Daffid011 said:

Deivos said:

Then they bought the whole company for nothing, unless they have something as "big" planned to replace it with. On top of that, as Nan pointed out they'd just be putting on a show for nothing according to your logic... one that costs them money..

I'd have to reiterate this. If the only interest was in short-term profit, then DBG would not be supporting any active titles really. They'd be shoring up major issues with some patches and weaning off all their titles from support until they could close them off, and any remaining effort would likely go into completing the in-development features of the Forgelite engine and subsequently turning SOE/DBG into something akin to how Epic Games operates, with some game development of their own, but a large push on monetizing their engine instead.

Honestly, if I didn't have an interest in seeing the progression of MMOs directly then that's probably the strategy I would go with because after doing due diligence on Forgelite in the past, they have a solid engine they could be licensing out.

Why would Daybreak shut down games that are generating money or could be sold off to generate money?  SOE already shut down Vanguard, Free Realms, Clone Wars and most of the other massively under performing games a few months before the sale of the division.  Most likely it was part of the sales agreement.  Odds are Columbus Nova did the math and figured they could make money running those games with reduced staff, at least for a period of time. 

The idea that Columbus Nova was/is really interested in developing the forgelite engine makes much more sense than the idea they felt they could make a better EQN game than SOE with only half the staff.   At the very least it would be expected they would bring in someone new to lead/fix the EQN project or keep the lore/story/vision people.

However if EQN/Landmark are nothing but testing and development tools for making the forgelite engine, then none of those people were needed. 

That was rather my point.

I doubt their perception is that they could make a better game so much as they can see what the investment into the title has been and in doing due diligence might have considered the product far enough along to see it's completion at least in some form rather than being culled as a financial loss.

Part of me hopes combat fails hard. So hard they go back to a old school trinity system, CC, Support, Tank. But I agree 100%, if the AI fails (main thing that is ground breaking for EQN) I think they will press on with new plans and still come out with a new EQ title. 

rush1984

no holy trinty , no thanks

Nanfoodle

rush1984 said:

no holy trinty , no thanks

Ya cuse over the past 4-5 years we have not gotten enough action combat MMOs? ((eye roll)) A solid trinity game is something being asked for over and over. No triple A game has had the balls to make one. Still has more depth then any action combat game I have played. Twitch is not skill, its just reflexes and spaming block or dodge.

azarhal

Nanfoodle said:

rush1984 said:

no holy trinty , no thanks

Ya cuse over the past 4-5 years we have not gotten enough action combat MMOs? ((eye roll)) A solid trinity game is something being asked for over and over. No triple A game has had the balls to make one. Still has more depth then any action combat game I have played. Twitch is not skill, its just reflexes and spaming block or dodge.

Final Fantasy XIV ARR is a trinity game, tab-target and AAA...and it just passed its second anniversary.

JDis25

azarhal said:

Nanfoodle said:

rush1984 said:

no holy trinty , no thanks

Ya cuse over the past 4-5 years we have not gotten enough action combat MMOs? ((eye roll)) A solid trinity game is something being asked for over and over. No triple A game has had the balls to make one. Still has more depth then any action combat game I have played. Twitch is not skill, its just reflexes and spaming block or dodge.

Final Fantasy XIV ARR is a trinity game, tab-target and AAA...and it just passed its second anniversary.

I like fast-paced, Tab Target, many abilities/combos on my skillbar. Trinity I like but not if it's required. for example, I think 5 assassin archetypes should be able to complete a dungeon, or 3 tanks 1 heal and an archer. or 4 mages and a healer, etc.

Blaedus

So...anyone wanna take a stab at why there hasn't been a new Workshop Show for two weeks?  Have I just been looking in the wrong place?