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Did Blizzard ruin MMORPG gamers?
Distopia
Member EpicPosts: 21,183
What i mean by that is, has their mastery of addictive design (psychology more or less) set gamers into a perpetual need for rewards? Few sell gaining prizes as well as Blizzard. Although some cash-shops feed on other addictive mechanics nicely..
WOW, in comparison to other games, is addictiveness built into design.
I hate to generalize as it's just assumption, but I think this is a big part of why WOW holds people like it does, the same could be said about DIablo 1-2. WHich many of the same hands played a part in creating those titles.
I think this has led to a high number of gamers who are addicted to that feeling now, when games don't focus on that, when they don't constantly have that addiction fueled (a grand new shiny), they lose interest. Hence why most other themeparks don't fair as well. Their designs focus elsewhere Story, PVP, etc..., is this what is missing in them? Constant stimulation from better and better rewards?
One thing that leads me to believe this is the case is that many people who say things like Story blah... cite going back to WOW from what ever game they say it about. Many who say there is no risk vs reward cite going back to wow.. etc etc etc.. It seems like people who are into WOW have a really hard time getting into anything else. Same with many Diablo players who could only find a new home in WOW. IS that all that stimulates a person after playing it for so long? Two things many games they leave have in common is story focus and limited gear appearances (examples being TOR and ESO).
I personally never get much stimulation out of gear rewards, epic mounts etc.. Hence I've always despised Diablo like games as well as disliked WOW.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Don't think wow ruin anything, more it helped bring more people to play mmo's in general being so big and all got the word out, and more mmo being made with new idea we got to see what worked and it's not working.
Of course I mean ruined rhetorically. I'm not trying to hate on Blizzard or "blame them".. It's an expression to say that people got sucked into how they do it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Certainly nobody's going to find lower quality MMORPGs acceptable anymore (few found it acceptable even before WOW.)
The bar WOW set had a lot to do with their bringing design sensibilities in from other genres -- up til then MMORPGs were doing some really dumb things that made them extremely unattractive to most.
Those gamers are not "ruined", as others have mentioned. They're just not going to accept mediocre games. They'll have a hard time accepting even games as good as WOW, since you have to pull people away from their existing characters and friends.
The addiction helped but wasn't as unique as the OP makes it out to be. All previous videogames were addictive in the same general way, though they varied in the details. You did an action, you got a reward. The actions and rewards varied a lot, and the quality varied too, but it has always been "do a thing, get a reward". It's just that sometimes the thing was crossing the street (Frogger) or lining up bricks (Tetris) and the rewards were completing the level or score or a cool death animation, or any of a thousand other things.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Blizzard didn't ruin MMORPG gamers. They changed the community as a whole. Think of it that way: Before WoW MMORPGers where mostly consisted of people playing RPGs in their different facettes. You had minmax-stratgist-RPGers, P&P-RPGs that actually wanted to RPG with others, Explorers, Dreamers, and so on. Enter Blizzard with a biiiiiig franchise, known worldwirde, with championships and so on, but from a completely different genre: RTS.
Millions of guys and gals knew Warcraft, played the story, knew Starcraft, knew the storytelling Blizzard did in those genres and wanted to know what this World of Warcraft was all about. Even more, since WC3 gave a peek of what they had planned with their little "demo". So suddenldy we had a huge influx of gamers that game from completely different genres, with completely different expectations that noticed "Hey! There are online worlds, not just arenas." and started to enlarge their niche, while companies saw the success of WoW and tried to copy it, without having the big franchise in their sleeve.
So Blizzard didn't ruin MMORPG gamers, it brought in people that were no RPGers in the first place. We RPGers always were kinda niche, with our urge to minmax, or dream, or explore worlds we never could see IRL and so on (yeah, I know I'm being cliche here.
). So people are now here to stay and seek out what they like best. Those RTSers go to MOBAs for example, action gamers and FPSers shout for twitch-combat, we RPGers are digging deep to find the one lost world of a mmoRPG that gives us a world to live in and to explore.
*puts his 2 cent on the table*
There's far more at play than simply good vs bad games, stimulation plays a huge role, as there is psychology at work in different designs. On top of that to say all games focused on that same stimuli is a great overstatement. Differing designs focus on different reactions. Which is the device used to string you along. WOW is essentially the skinner box, most are familiar with this comparison, because it fits, diablo would as well, some other themeparks to a lesser degree, they just don't do that as well, because of their differences in design. Could just be too little of a focus on it too much elsewhere.
The question really boils down to do people get more stimulation from carefully paced rewards, than they do well paced storylines, RPG mechanics, etc..?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
WoW didn't ruin MMORPG gamers, what they did was make MMORPG games main stream. They made a game that was easy to play, could run on any computer, and was easy to access. They also used psychology to make the game enjoyable for a larger group of people, that the easy rewards and constant dings come in. I used to call WoW the Mcdonald's of the mmo world, its not really food, they treat their customers and employees like total crap, and for some reason we are all lovin' it.
Because WoW made mmorpgs go mainstream we have seen other games adapt rpg aspects and mechanics, look at call of duty. This has made games as a whole better. The community seems like it is worse, but only because it is so big now. MMORPG gamers havent changed at all, games just arent being made for us any more and are instead are being made for gamers in general. This also isnt bad, assuming a game exist for you that you enjoy.
As for me I recently accepted that mmorpgs are gone for the moment, at least ones that I feel really fit what an mmorpg should be, and I started playing WoW again (havent played really since vanilla). I find that if I ignore the barrens chat that happens in every other zone, and I accept that the ?? that ganked me and then tea bagged me, that he inst ruining my experience, rather keeping me on my toes, and tea bagged me not cause I suck but because he is an immature child. I dont know im having fun and enjoying myself and it is because I am playing WoW for what it is and not being angry at what it isnt...
Cant wait for one company to notice that they can make money by trying to serve a few million people or a few hundred thousand and start making games for specific audiences again and to stop trying to make all the money from all people. Its not leaving farm land unused, or crops unharvested, it is making sure you will have good farm land next year to plant on. More money over time verse a quick splash then death...
That was more or less my overall point. IE have they conditioned players into that expectation of constant reward.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Fundamentally, I think I understand what you are saying. Blizzard created some Pavlovian formula that was more powerful than most preceding games and this led people to crave being rewarded more often. This then led to people not being able to accept the slow release of rewards (and therefor dopamine) that the older games offered.
But really, it's not Blizzard that ruined gamers, it's natural human behavior that Blizzard took advantage of. It's natural human behavior that all games take advantage of. Dopamine is a large part of what makes games fun and if your game doesn't give people positive feelings, people are not going to play your game.
What is strange to me personally, about you, is that it's easy for you to notice the behavior people have about WoW, but then you ignore that everyone else that is playing games like EQ or SWG or even ESO are exhibiting the exact same behaviors. WoW has a large playerbase, but their turnover is incredible as well. You might be noticing people going back to WoW because Blizzard was better at creating a game that is more "fun" (better at making people feel good) for a larger group of people than other games.
I'm not going to go so far as to say that dedicated MMORPG players either are or are not "ruined," but putting the people that enjoy WoW into a different bag than the people that are playing ESO right now for instance is just silly. Certainly EQ and SWG were highly based around getting rewards.
EQ yes, SWG really didn't have content based rewards until after the CU (ROTW expansion). Prior to that you purchased a good set of armor/weapon and wore/used it, til it died.. rinse and repeat. There was only one viable armor at the time in PVP scenarios (which was rather cheap to replace). IF that gives any indication how gear (rewards) worked I don't know what does. It may be just rose colored glasses but there is a difference to me.
As for ESO, if what I'm saying is true it would more or less reinforce it, Story doesn't stimulate as well.. add to that most armors look the same, in turn there's little stimulation coming from those rewards.. I could be wrong of course, just trying to show I did give this a good bit of thought before i posted.
PS: (RED) That is exactly what I was trying to say. You just said it better. (I didn't mention older games though.) IF I did I meant to say "other".
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
EQ started it, WoW perfected it.
Blizzard took Warcrafts lore and Diablo gameplay and made MMO based on EQ.
But, Diablo was called hack&slash lewt whore game from the start. And....Evercrack...says it all. Noone in their right mind called those RPGs.
All themeparks from then LOTRO, SWTOR, WS, ESO, FFXIV tried same exact same formula. You might say they werent so succesful about it but dont be mistaken about it either.
There will always be a demand for games that offer quick and easy fun.
When other games come along offering something more challenging and realistic, with a more balanced risk versus reward system, some will partake, perhaps more than people think. No amount of easy mode programming will prevent people from appreciating a good game, because the feeling of reward that is earned is always better.
However, it will never appeal to as many people as feel good games that herald you as the champion and saviour of the kingdom the first day you step into the world.
Yeah they did stick to themepark fundamentals that WOW standardized. Yet their retention problems indicate they were missing some part of that formula. I think that was as you stated above, diablo's game-play and loot-whore focus. They mostly featured rather weak itemization, which fundamentally destroys that aspect of a game. Within that H&S genre most prominently but I'm sure elsewhere as well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
We would have to define rewards. Certainly working towards becoming a Jedi had it's rewards. There are other rewards like getting your own house, leveling up, getting stronger by putting points in that messy tree thing they had, collecting parts of whatever... the gambling game that was crafting was a perfect example of a system that feeds you dopamine by having a random reward schedule. SWG was filled with rewards for your time, they just weren't as common to recieve. And so that is the distinction - not whether they are "content rewards" or gear. Is having rewards more often the key to attracting large player bases? Is there some perfect zone of rewards that REALLY gets people going?
And I would agree that story doesn't stimulate as well a steady dose of rewards - especially since a story's quality is so subjective. Designing a game around story, for an MMORPG, may just not be the most effective way to grab an audience. Almost certainly it's not a way to grab the LARGEST audience - although even the newer WoW stuff is far more story driven than it used to be.
Another thing to remember is that if Blizzard didn't offer a faster reward system, someone else would have. It was inevitable. Idle games are a good example of how crazy we all really are. I think the top 4 games played on Kongregate right now are all idle games which offer constant rewards and a sense of progression.
In that sense yes SWG had that type of reward.. I was referring to the set of new gear you get in WOW or those that follow that formula per every so many levels. That is essentially the motivator for everything in a game like that. Where as a more open sandbox design is more about setting up your own experience. Sounds romantic sure, maybe an exaggeration, as any dev is going to use stimuli. Yet these games seem more about making money off peoples imagination (the player's that is) Sure in itself that is a stimulation, but on a fundamental level it's a different approach. It leads to it's own expectations going forward. Overall though a fair point on your part.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Yep it's the constant flow of those complaints that brought about my thoughts, the only real underlying fabric holding them together is that they almost always cite 'going back to WOW" in follow up. As I said in the op it's like they can't enjoy or see the quality in anything else.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In a way, they did get a lot of new people who weren't belonging to the group who previously played into the genre.
In the beginning wasn't Wow anything like it is today, open world content was way harder, leveling took far longer time and so on. But the players demanded that the game should be easier and faster. Wow already had been made easier and faster than EQ and when Blizz made the changers the players wanted things started to move.
And then everyone else stared copying Blizzard.
The real "blame" is of course on the players, if they would have been happy with Wow at launch things would be different.
Blizzards fault is that they listened a bit too much, Wow have the same problem all other MMOs have today, new players stay shorter time than they used to. They luckily have the vets who continue and continue but they have a really hard time to get new players doing the same.
And of course, that everyone is doing just like Blizzard is the real problem, we don't need another (or a 100 more) Wow, we already got one.
Wow did lead to some positive things as well, MMOs have gotten way more polished and rat killing quests have gotten less common. The genre did get many high budget games a few years back since all publishers wanted in, if they had a bit more imagination and hadn't copied as much as they did we wouldn't be in a situation where so few MMOs are in development and the average time a MMO plays is so short.
What Blizzard did is brought in a bunch new players and mainstreamed mmorpg.
We all know the best selling mmorpg is... Destiny (which isn't a mmorpg per sey).
But it showed one thing, mmorpg is always the minority. Or at least the people who play the same mmorpg for years is the minority.
I think it's just mmorpg gamers wanting to think they are the majority.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Regardless how you meant it, your wording says otherwise - instead of accepting simple fact that Blizzard created enjoyable game, you try to divert from that simple fact with silly psychological bosh...
Can't say I agree with OP. I've known a lot of MMORPG players over the years, many of them played WoW, many of them didn't. The vast majority have moved on from WoW and never went back. A small handful has gone back here and there. Most of them moved on to other things in life, whether that be new MMORPGS, new MMOs in general, or just quitting gaming all together, atleast online.
WoW just happened to be a big blip on the PC MMO gaming map at the right time, but its eventually fading away. Other games have always and will always be replacing it and each other for that matter. The MMORPG enthusiast have gone on to other MMORPGs. The MMO gamers have gone on to other MMOs. WoW was great while it lasted, but the vast majority of people that played it have gotten bored and moved on, which I think is pretty normal when all things are said and done.
So I guess what i'm saying is, WoW was great and Blizzard did a great job, but I don't think that 'ruined' other MMORPGs for the MMORPG enthusiast.
Enjoyable games only last so long, longevity is achieved through more than being an enjoyable game. Especially when games made of the same overall criteria fall by the dozens to it's feet.
You don't strike me as a native english speaker (based on how you put sentences together), so tone and things like that may not exactly translate well with you. So I'm not sure what my wording really sounds (reads) like to you. No offense meant just saying.It would also depend on what wording you're referring to.. In the title of a long winded post where I explain what i mean?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson