I think there might be two aspects to the combat problem:
1) a lot of people want more actiony combat and they don't like a game if it's not there
2) however personally I don't care about actiony combat and I had a problem with the combat as well and I wonder if it was less of a fault of the game and more to do with genre expectations coming into the game. When I played the trial (briefly as it didn't run properly on the PC I had at the time) I came into the game thinking in terms of the games I'd recently tried which were all class based with face-roll combat. I think I automatically assumed the scene where you pick a weapon was like picking a class and I also assumed - based on the mmos I'd been trying at the time - that it was mostly a flavor choice as combat would be the standard face roll so it wouldn't matter.
In the beginning my weapon choice worked fine but eventually I ran into mobs which took ages to kill with the build I had and I assumed - again based on the mmos of the time - that the problem was I needed better gear. It didn't occur to me at the time I should maybe use the wheel to adjust my build for different mobs.
So I wonder now if this second problem happened with a lot of the non-actiony people. They were so used to fixed classes and easy combat it didn't occur to then to change weapons or adjust their build and so got fed up with really slow fights.
If so one way to fix that might have been to show the main characters switching weapons in the trailers.
Just a thought.
I just bought the game now I have a better PC and will test the theory if I can remember which mob my trial shotgun build stopped working on.
This game had a huge following prior to release. I recall they also had a lot of activities on Facebook. Then they announced their business model. I think this was one of the first game (if not the first game ) to use this model. Box price + Subscription + Cash Shop. There was a 2000 page discussion on the forum. The community yelled and screamed. They went ahead with their cash grab and many of their followers moved along never to look back. Myself included.
Because few good ideas and quests + some nice environment don't make a game. Now I'm waiting for more capable developers to build on the good ideas from TSW and make much better version in the future.
The combat, while a bit better now that they reduced TTK, is still tedious as is just moving your character. They put fantastic jumping puzzles in the game yet the physics of your character, better known as character feedback, is just AWFUL and is more of a fight with your character and controls then with the environment and the jumping puzzle. Just watch a few streams of people trying to time jumps between rocks in the water, you can see how awful the physics are and yet they expect us to do all these fancy things. Combat is part and parcel of the same problem, moving around looks horrible for an action combat game. Tab target combat similar to WoW, Rift, EQ2 would have suited this game better with it's current character control mechanics, IMHO.
Funcom and Anarchy Online introduced me to MMO gaming (still my favorite), Age of Conan I thought was good overall and kept me engaged well into end game, rading, and I levelled 2-3 alts so about 3-4 months of fun. Secret World I played for 3 hours and gave up, it was terrible in comparison to the previous games- - combat was bad, the setting to me was boring, the animations were bad, the quest hub with millions of pointless quests was there, and maybe it was just the wrong time for the game. But something about the combat mechanics was not right, it just felt too clunky.
For me personally SWTOR was more engaging, for example, even though it's also a pretty stupid game, and the quest grind gets tedious.
Currently on day 5 of FFXIV trial and I just cant bring myselft to play it, derivative and uninteresting setting for me.
For me personally it is hard to define, I like Funcom's games, I like sci-fi settings more than fantasy, and some of the game mechanics sound kind of cool but about 3 hours was enough for me to realize that I just don't find it fun to play. Running around that first city with zombies or whatever they were, go here, here is 10 quests, go there, run over there, kill 5 things, pick up 10 things and quit, uninstall, goodbye.
First 10 minutes were cool though. FFXIV is boring from the get go, Lominsa and characters umming and yarring, but ok I am genereally not into japanese anime stuff so that makes sense at least.
They have had ages to do something about the combat (especially melee), not much has changed. If only they had stopped for a while and re-visited this area, I can't help thinking that the game would have been markedly more successful.
Other dev teams have known that if they get this part right even dated graphics will be ok. Get it wrong however, and no amount of other game features will offset it.
Because I've seen better melee combat in a string puppet fight.
If they would only turn their attention to this.
The combat is what turned people off from this game. The fans want everyone to believe it was because you had to use your brain or some dumb thing like that. Its why all Funcoms games are niche. They make an amazing game world and screw up with bad combat. Everyone i know that tried the game quit because that hated the lousy combat system.
plus languages , this game is amazing and has lots of interesting quests.....but if u only publish it in a few languages u arent going to reach every1.
combat animations are HORRIBLE....and combat itself is bad.... i gave the game 4 trys , and couldnt enjoy it ,the game had potential , and failed to deliver an enjoyable experience. Really sad because the lore/zones/ puzzle quests are really well done
It's horror. Moves rated R make allot less money then PG 13 or G rated. Movies will walk the line that borders PG 13 and 14 AA just to get a larger audience for the movie. Same happens with games. Sure a good old M rating will earn you sales but a game done just as well will have a larger market. I get people buy games just because of the M rating but many more buy T for teen because of the rating. I uninstalled TSW after 30 min of beta play, not family rated.
It's horror. Moves rated R make allot less money then PG 13 or G rated. Movies will walk the line that borders PG 13 and 14 AA just to get a larger audience for the movie. Same happens with games. Sure a good old M rating will earn you sales but a game done just as well will have a larger market. I get people buy games just because of the M rating but many more buy T for teen because of the rating. I uninstalled TSW after 30 min of beta play, not family rated.
Well, sort of.
You are correct in that it's horror of sort correct about the ratings tiers but that's not exactly why it's not as popular even though you sort of got it.
It has nothing to do with any rating of the content just that it's "horror".
Oddly enough, horror games aren't hugely popular even though those that are popular have great things said about them (looking at you Amnesia).
You are correct that it's not family rated but make it a pg game and it's still not going to be wildly popular.
Especially because (at least from my memory of playing it at launch) the puzzles took a bit of effort. In truth, I'm surprised at Funcom for having higher hopes for population. When the game was in development I thought the game would get a nice solid 200k - 250 k max group if they were lucky. I think they got well over 300k/ and they were disappointed.
Horror games are such a niche group of games. I couldn't tell you why as horror movies seem to do well. I just suppose that the set of horror movie enthusiasts aren't really "gamers"?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I loved this game until I hit the Gate Keeper and all that lead to was the unrelenting gear grind. Too many guilds that were build around role playing became gear grind guilds.
TSW still has by far the best story telling of any MMO in my experience, even surpassing LotRO or SWTOR.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
I love the theme and the quests. Don't like the combat and how dense the mobs are placed in some zones.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
They released the game too soon, and it was fairly buggy for a lot of people.
They tried to make an unproven franchise have a subscription model.
In addition to the subscription, they had a F2P cash shop that had more stuff in it than normal F2P games that release.
Many people that tried it, didn't like the combat system (specifically, the animations and how long it took to kill things solo).
Each of the above left a bad taste in people's mouths, and new franchises really only have one chance to impress before starting a new hype campaign for F2P and noting significant changes that players have been asking. B2P still required money, so many still passed despite the change. They would've been more receptive if it started as B2P.
This carried with this clear into their B2P state. Of which was likely another misstep. At that point, F2P might've been a better option in terms of monetary success. Though I could see them trying B2P first and then transitioning once you have substantial box purchases.
If a new company gets the IP and makes changes while hyping said changes and moving it to a F2P model, it might get some life into it. Though it depends on how they handle things and how far they are willing to go.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I never played TSW. Generally, I don't like games with modern settings and I've found I have no fondness for automatic weapons in MMOs. I guess Hellgate convinced me that MMO+modernity were not a match. Put those together with TSW not giving me any reason to think it would be any different than any other MMO (even if it is) and I just gave it a pass.
Absolutely nothing I've seen since it launched has intrigued me in any way or peaked my interest. It remains a game I'm glad I didn't try.
I never played TSW. Generally, I don't like games with modern settings and I've found I have no fondness for automatic weapons in MMOs. I guess Hellgate convinced me that MMO+modernity were not a match. Put those together with TSW not giving me any reason to think it would be any different than any other MMO (even if it is) and I just gave it a pass.
Absolutely nothing I've seen since it launched has intrigued me in any way or peaked my interest. It remains a game I'm glad I didn't try.
Actually what i find funny about this, is that Hellgate has far superior combat gameplay to TSW. TSW on the other hand does a modern setting better than Hellgate does. Hellgate was a bit more post apocalyptic, while TSW is the build up to the apocalypse. But TSW had the better world overall. Also far better questing and story. TSW also had better looking mobs with great animations. It does however serve to make the shortcomings with your own characters animation, that much more glaring.
Why would I want to play a MMO about RealLife (loosely based even)??
MMOs to me are about fantasy, dreams, what could have been Ages ago, what might be thousands of years from now, the possibilities of another world, not what could be right now on this world. It never makes sense to me why a Dev Team would choose to make a MMO about our time period or any time within a 1000 years of "Now". I don't even play "apocalypse" MMOs because that could happen tomorrow... I know that for a fact from being a sailor on a missile submarine in the cold war.
Just my opinion, not a "Rule" of how Devs do things, just my point of view. Devs are free to throw their trash can and it's contents at me if they wish, I won't hold it against them as I probably deserve it (won't change my opinion).
I played it several times and i must agree with most posters. My biggest complaint was mob the mob density in a investigation game + the need for serious theorycrafting with the skills, an added disadvantage was that the suggested newbie builds that came with the game wasn't very good. I would like to go back but spending hours designing your builds in a investigation game does not exite me at all.
I played it several times and i must agree with most posters. My biggest complaint was mob the mob density in a investigation game + the need for serious theorycrafting with the skills, an added disadvantage was that the suggested newbie builds that came with the game wasn't very good. I would like to go back but spending hours designing your builds in a investigation game does not exite me at all.
A couple months ago, with EPE (the new player experience update) they lowered mob density, and honed the pre-made decks into more efficient versions (mostly on the passive side, with self-heals or better defense). Just sayin'
The game is basically about getting gear and upgrading gear. There are a lot of games like that with better, smoother combat. So people who are into gear-grinders won't be interested in TSW.
The best points of this game are story (which is consumed only once) and opportunities for role players. So the main audience of this game (those who will stick around) are probably role players.
As others have pointed out, there are a lot of innovative ideas in this game. These ideas are mixed with some mmo standards (gear grind) and some mediocre execution (combat).
A couple months ago, with EPE (the new player experience update) they lowered mob density, and honed the pre-made decks into more efficient versions (mostly on the passive side, with self-heals or better defense). Just sayin'
Very good did not know about the remake of the decks, I knew about the EPE but I did not think it was very well explained, except for the mob density.
Comments
1) a lot of people want more actiony combat and they don't like a game if it's not there
2) however personally I don't care about actiony combat and I had a problem with the combat as well and I wonder if it was less of a fault of the game and more to do with genre expectations coming into the game. When I played the trial (briefly as it didn't run properly on the PC I had at the time) I came into the game thinking in terms of the games I'd recently tried which were all class based with face-roll combat. I think I automatically assumed the scene where you pick a weapon was like picking a class and I also assumed - based on the mmos I'd been trying at the time - that it was mostly a flavor choice as combat would be the standard face roll so it wouldn't matter.
In the beginning my weapon choice worked fine but eventually I ran into mobs which took ages to kill with the build I had and I assumed - again based on the mmos of the time - that the problem was I needed better gear. It didn't occur to me at the time I should maybe use the wheel to adjust my build for different mobs.
So I wonder now if this second problem happened with a lot of the non-actiony people. They were so used to fixed classes and easy combat it didn't occur to then to change weapons or adjust their build and so got fed up with really slow fights.
If so one way to fix that might have been to show the main characters switching weapons in the trailers.
Just a thought.
I just bought the game now I have a better PC and will test the theory if I can remember which mob my trial shotgun build stopped working on.
Then they announced their business model. I think this was one of the first game (if not the first game ) to use this model.
Box price + Subscription + Cash Shop. There was a 2000 page discussion on the forum.
The community yelled and screamed. They went ahead with their cash grab and many of their followers moved along never to look back.
Myself included.
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
For me personally SWTOR was more engaging, for example, even though it's also a pretty stupid game, and the quest grind gets tedious.
Currently on day 5 of FFXIV trial and I just cant bring myselft to play it, derivative and uninteresting setting for me.
For me personally it is hard to define, I like Funcom's games, I like sci-fi settings more than fantasy, and some of the game mechanics sound kind of cool but about 3 hours was enough for me to realize that I just don't find it fun to play. Running around that first city with zombies or whatever they were, go here, here is 10 quests, go there, run over there, kill 5 things, pick up 10 things and quit, uninstall, goodbye.
First 10 minutes were cool though. FFXIV is boring from the get go, Lominsa and characters umming and yarring, but ok I am genereally not into japanese anime stuff so that makes sense at least.
Other dev teams have known that if they get this part right even dated graphics will be ok. Get it wrong however, and no amount of other game features will offset it.
combat animations are HORRIBLE....and combat itself is bad.... i gave the game 4 trys , and couldnt enjoy it ,the game had potential , and failed to deliver an enjoyable experience. Really sad because the lore/zones/ puzzle quests are really well done
You are correct in that it's horror of sort correct about the ratings tiers but that's not exactly why it's not as popular even though you sort of got it.
It has nothing to do with any rating of the content just that it's "horror".
Oddly enough, horror games aren't hugely popular even though those that are popular have great things said about them (looking at you Amnesia).
You are correct that it's not family rated but make it a pg game and it's still not going to be wildly popular.
Especially because (at least from my memory of playing it at launch) the puzzles took a bit of effort. In truth, I'm surprised at Funcom for having higher hopes for population. When the game was in development I thought the game would get a nice solid 200k - 250 k max group if they were lucky. I think they got well over 300k/ and they were disappointed.
Horror games are such a niche group of games. I couldn't tell you why as horror movies seem to do well. I just suppose that the set of horror movie enthusiasts aren't really "gamers"?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
TSW still has by far the best story telling of any MMO in my experience, even surpassing LotRO or SWTOR.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
- They released the game too soon, and it was fairly buggy for a lot of people.
- They tried to make an unproven franchise have a subscription model.
- In addition to the subscription, they had a F2P cash shop that had more stuff in it than normal F2P games that release.
- Many people that tried it, didn't like the combat system (specifically, the animations and how long it took to kill things solo).
- Each of the above left a bad taste in people's mouths, and new franchises really only have one chance to impress before starting a new hype campaign for F2P and noting significant changes that players have been asking. B2P still required money, so many still passed despite the change. They would've been more receptive if it started as B2P.
This carried with this clear into their B2P state. Of which was likely another misstep. At that point, F2P might've been a better option in terms of monetary success. Though I could see them trying B2P first and then transitioning once you have substantial box purchases.If a new company gets the IP and makes changes while hyping said changes and moving it to a F2P model, it might get some life into it. Though it depends on how they handle things and how far they are willing to go.
Absolutely nothing I've seen since it launched has intrigued me in any way or peaked my interest. It remains a game I'm glad I didn't try.
Pretty much this for me. And since combat is pretty much 90% of the game, it means I don't play it as much as I would.
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Why would I want to play a MMO about RealLife (loosely based even)??
MMOs to me are about fantasy, dreams, what could have been Ages ago, what might be thousands of years from now, the possibilities of another world, not what could be right now on this world. It never makes sense to me why a Dev Team would choose to make a MMO about our time period or any time within a 1000 years of "Now". I don't even play "apocalypse" MMOs because that could happen tomorrow... I know that for a fact from being a sailor on a missile submarine in the cold war.
Just my opinion, not a "Rule" of how Devs do things, just my point of view. Devs are free to throw their trash can and it's contents at me if they wish, I won't hold it against them as I probably deserve it (won't change my opinion).
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
The best points of this game are story (which is consumed only once) and opportunities for role players. So the main audience of this game (those who will stick around) are probably role players.
As others have pointed out, there are a lot of innovative ideas in this game. These ideas are mixed with some mmo standards (gear grind) and some mediocre execution (combat).
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch