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  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,903

    I kind of wish that you guys made a pretty 2D side scroller with your story system...   Rather than a 3D MMO that is going to look aged by the time you get it ready.

    To be honest if I'm looking for a "quester" style MMO by the time you guys release I'll probably download and try you guys out.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

    I forget the question but it was number #7.There is no way to answer it properly because my answer was not anywhere in the options.I should have left it untouched ,i thought we had to answer every question no matter what.

    Any of the questions that ask for an ordering system are not accurate because in many of those cases they simply do not apply.Example you put one part to number 1 but the other 5 parts don't matter at all.Or in case none of them matter but you put one of them at number 1,it skews the results.

    I guess the best way to say it is that questions can be loaded in a way that you always get the answers you want.The ONLY true way to ask a question is with an opinionated response not a a/b/c choice.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • mythranda1mythranda1 Member Posts: 16
     

    Graphics will be the very last thing we do so that we can have the most up-to-date graphics on the market. For some recent links from our Dev Blog...the most recent build of our engine has many never-before-seen (and as far as we know, don't exist) features, and a few things that people are looking for as the "standard" for today's games (like Physically Based Rendering).

    We are keeping our new graphics and art under wraps as within the next 2-4 months we will be scheduling our very first publisher demonstrations. Still, if you want to see what our new engine can do with the OLD art, just take a look at some of the photos on our Facebook page (link below).

    The first image in the photo section has a large church-looking building looming in the foreground. That is one of our newer models. 

    The next four images are the "OLD" graphics/art, but with side by side rendering with our new engine. If we can make 4-5 year old art look that much better with just our engine, wait until you see the new stuff.

    https://www.facebook.com/CitadelofSorcery/photos_stream?tab=photos_stream

    Well, shoot. I said I wasn't here to advertise the game or try to convince folks to play it, but I can't help it, here I am, all excited. Thanks to all of you who are being supportive. Heck, thank you to all of you who are being cynical. I think it's important to have healthy criticism once in a while. Keeps you honest, and more determined than ever to prove them wrong!

    I look forward to seeing you all in game!

    ~Raevyn

  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by mythranda1
     

    Graphics will be the very last thing we do so that we can have the most up-to-date graphics on the market. For some recent links from our Dev Blog...the most recent build of our engine has many never-before-seen (and as far as we know, don't exist) features, and a few things that people are looking for as the "standard" for today's games (like Physically Based Rendering).

    We are keeping our new graphics and art under wraps as within the next 2-4 months we will be scheduling our very first publisher demonstrations. Still, if you want to see what our new engine can do with the OLD art, just take a look at some of the photos on our Facebook page (link below).

    The first image in the photo section has a large church-looking building looming in the foreground. That is one of our newer models. 

    The next four images are the "OLD" graphics/art, but with side by side rendering with our new engine. If we can make 4-5 year old art look that much better with just our engine, wait until you see the new stuff.

    https://www.facebook.com/CitadelofSorcery/photos_stream?tab=photos_stream

    Well, shoot. I said I wasn't here to advertise the game or try to convince folks to play it, but I can't help it, here I am, all excited. Thanks to all of you who are being supportive. Heck, thank you to all of you who are being cynical. I think it's important to have healthy criticism once in a while. Keeps you honest, and more determined than ever to prove them wrong!

    I look forward to seeing you all in game!

    ~Raevyn

     

    Cherry picking some things that jumped out at me in that blog you linked to ask some questions:

     

     

    "T3Dv2 uses a variable texture quality system that streams texture resolution changes. This means that as a player gets closer to a textured surface, the texture resolution keeps getting higher, all the way up to 2k x 2k."

    Are you talking about standard texture streaming (texture swapping) but with higher res potential? If so are you forcing pre-caching on the lowest res versions of textures?


    And, when you say "2k" do you mean 1080p (which is now being called 2k) or 2160p (Which is now being called 4k but is actually 2k by the system that actually works)?


    Also, are you making sure textures that don't use transparency (glass, grass etc.) have no alpha channels? Just saying...it reduces file size by 15-25% depending on compression type/export format.

     



    ".imf and .rmf. The first one is our Intermediate Model Format, which stores things 20% smaller, but this format is just for the developer o the game to use, as it allows for many different live adjustments in the game tools. Once the model is done, and ready for players, it saves out into the Run Time Format, and that save down to an amazing 96% reduction in size. Typically, a fairly complex and large structure now saves at 80 bytes."


    Clarification: .rmf... I have heard of this maybe twice (in like 15 years of hobbyism. I think once on Second Life and once on Active worlds back in the day). Never seen it in any program I have used as a native or output format (that I can recall). Is this a new iteration of the extension you developed; Or something Cthulu handed you via one of his face tentacles from the nether regions of the dark net?

     



    "Continents have been generated with large geography elements (mountains, canyons, plains, etc.), these were soil typed with various levels of dirt and rock. Then the water erosion system was started on them, which not only carves rivers and lakes, etc, but based on the soil type and composition, washes sediments downstream, cutting the terrain. Then, based on the new data for the shape of the world, and jumping forward in time, weather patterns are adjusted,"


    The reason we don't have (offline, on earth) 5 to 100 foot strait drops into every stream that exists. Is because animals come to the banks to get a drink (partly...but a big part of it). Water cuts it away. Animals trample and mat it back down at the edges. The question I was leading up to here is...real ecosystem in the works? Herds of hoofed animals keeping water erosion down? Beavers building dams and turning areas into ponds and marshlands?

     



    "In other programming news, we have created a new tool called BackStage. This tool is exciting for us as developers, because it is integrating more of our tools into one place, and that tool runs inside the running game. We already had Enact doing this (Enact being the primary game play creation tool set), but we are adding things like the model editor, material editor, set editor, prop editor and particle effects editor, all into BackStage with Enact. This integration of tools into the live game lets Level Designers make changes to virtually everything right in the running game world."


    So, in-game Mods fixing problems as they occur (and come to light through bug reporting) without downtime (as apposed to just using this to tweak play experience)?

     



    "An example of a new feature going in this week is an improvement to our A.I. Net (which allows NPCs to make constant decisions on what they wish to do next). We’re adding a system that improves their choice level so that they can weigh the importance of what they are doing when an outside force acts upon them. If some other Event in the world attempts to impact them, they can decide what they want to do by weighing that new choice against the importance (to them) of what they were doing previously."


    How much RNG in this?

    image

  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,331
    Odd that you are showing a demo from 2012.image
  • mythranda1mythranda1 Member Posts: 16

    Helleri,

    Really excellent questions! I can answer some of those, but I want to make sure all the information I give is a) something I'm allowed to share (we've developed a lot of new technology that we will be patenting), and b) that I get it right. I'm on the Design team (and a bit of a writer), not the Programming team.

    I've submitted all of your questions to Phil Blood, our CEO, so that he can review and respond. 

    Best,

    Raevyn

  • mythranda1mythranda1 Member Posts: 16
    Originally posted by Helleri
     

    Cherry picking some things that jumped out at me in that blog you linked to ask some questions:

     The first questions you ask about our specific technology, file types, resolution, etc I will leave to Phil to answer.

    "In other programming news, we have created a new tool called BackStage. This tool is exciting for us as developers, because it is integrating more of our tools into one place, and that tool runs inside the running game. We already had Enact doing this (Enact being the primary game play creation tool set), but we are adding things like the model editor, material editor, set editor, prop editor and particle effects editor, all into BackStage with Enact. This integration of tools into the live game lets Level Designers make changes to virtually everything right in the running game world."


    So, in-game Mods fixing problems as they occur (and come to light through bug reporting) without downtime (as apposed to just using this to tweak play experience)?

     Yes. One of our primary goals when developing our engine was to drastically reduce the amount of time it takes to develop, test, and deploy new content as well as make it much easier to fix bugs. We like to think of our system as something akin to the relatively new way many websites and programming teams are working - Continuous Delivery. We saw this as the way the world should be moving back when we first started development.


    "An example of a new feature going in this week is an improvement to our A.I. Net (which allows NPCs to make constant decisions on what they wish to do next). We’re adding a system that improves their choice level so that they can weigh the importance of what they are doing when an outside force acts upon them. If some other Event in the world attempts to impact them, they can decide what they want to do by weighing that new choice against the importance (to them) of what they were doing previously."

    How much RNG in this?

    Let's see. RNG? Traditionally this just means Random Number Generator, and it is usually referred to when people are talking about things that just can happen at random, so my short answer would be no. However, there is definitely a very small amount "random" going in. Without revealing too much about how we do this (top seekret!), I'll respond with an example. 

    An NPC is on their way to work, and passes by a flower seller who is asking for folks to come over and look at their flowers. The NPC's instructions tell it that it is on the way to work, and it will weigh the value of that instruction set against the Event of the Flower Seller shouting and decide that work is more important. Meanwhile, another NPC on the way home and in their "Leisure" instruction set, might stop and purchase the flowers. However, they might decide instead to go into the local Tavern and grab a beer.

    Our AI Net allows for these choices by the game to exist. All of the options are layered in and each NPC has their own personality, agenda, and goals in mind when it is effected by the AI Net.

     

  • mythranda1mythranda1 Member Posts: 16
    Originally posted by Helleri
     

     I received some answers from Phil and our Programming team that I'll share below.

    Cherry picking some things that jumped out at me in that blog you linked to ask some questions:

     

    "T3Dv2 uses a variable texture quality system that streams texture resolution changes. This means that as a player gets closer to a textured surface, the texture resolution keeps getting higher, all the way up to 2k x 2k."

    Are you talking about standard texture streaming (texture swapping) but with higher res potential? If so are you forcing pre-caching on the lowest res versions of textures?

    "Our system monitors pixel count density at every given frame for each texture on screen and decides which resolution is best served for that texture.  It is constantly streaming texture resolutions in and out, anticipating what it will need in the near future.   This is not a simple distance based texture resolution swap, it is more analytical than that, and works to keep textures to the maximum resolution needed at that moment, but no more than what is needed for that material (with the maximum being 2048x2048, and the minimum being very small).  Of course, it gets more complex even than that, for as models move into the distance we don’t use textures at all, we actually blend into a voxel or point cloud system on the fly."


    And, when you say "2k" do you mean 1080p (which is now being called 2k) or 2160p (Which is now being called 4k but is actually 2k by the system that actually works)?

    We are talking about 2048 x 2048 pixel resolution textures, not your monitor’s resolution.


    Also, are you making sure textures that don't use transparency (glass, grass etc.) have no alpha channels? Just saying...it reduces file size by 15-25% depending on compression type/export format.

     Yes, we don’t use Alphas in textures that do not require transparency levels, that would be inefficient.

    ".imf and .rmf. The first one is our Intermediate Model Format, which stores things 20% smaller, but this format is just for the developer o the game to use, as it allows for many different live adjustments in the game tools. Once the model is done, and ready for players, it saves out into the Run Time Format, and that save down to an amazing 96% reduction in size. Typically, a fairly complex and large structure now saves at 80 bytes."


    Clarification: .rmf... I have heard of this maybe twice (in like 15 years of hobbyism. I think once on Second Life and once on Active worlds back in the day). Never seen it in any program I have used as a native or output format (that I can recall). Is this a new iteration of the extension you developed; Or something Cthulu handed you via one of his face tentacles from the nether regions of the dark net?

    This is a proprietary format created by the team at A3D, it isn’t borrowed from anywhere.



    "Continents have been generated with large geography elements (mountains, canyons, plains, etc.), these were soil typed with various levels of dirt and rock. Then the water erosion system was started on them, which not only carves rivers and lakes, etc, but based on the soil type and composition, washes sediments downstream, cutting the terrain. Then, based on the new data for the shape of the world, and jumping forward in time, weather patterns are adjusted,"


    The reason we don't have (offline, on earth) 5 to 100 foot strait drops into every stream that exists. Is because animals come to the banks to get a drink (partly...but a big part of it). Water cuts it away. Animals trample and mat it back down at the edges. The question I was leading up to here is...real ecosystem in the works? Herds of hoofed animals keeping water erosion down? Beavers building dams and turning areas into ponds and marshlands?

    Well, that’s partly true.  There are also landslides due to wind, gravity and water erosion.  In many cases, animals use these areas to look for the easiest way down to the water first, and then trample it down further, adding animal erosion, so to speak.  But in other smaller drops (five to ten feet) they may just trample their way down.  We have a system to handle all this, but it is actually part of the road system, which works with the terrain generator.  All roads and paths, right down to game trails, are generated after the terrain is created and initial erosion is completed.  These roads and paths further modify the terrain, after which more erosion is applied.



    "In other programming news, we have created a new tool called BackStage. This tool is exciting for us as developers, because it is integrating more of our tools into one place, and that tool runs inside the running game. We already had Enact doing this (Enact being the primary game play creation tool set), but we are adding things like the model editor, material editor, set editor, prop editor and particle effects editor, all into BackStage with Enact. This integration of tools into the live game lets Level Designers make changes to virtually everything right in the running game world."


    So, in-game Mods fixing problems as they occur (and come to light through bug reporting) without downtime (as apposed to just using this to tweak play experience)?

     My previous answer on this was a little off. Please see Phil's updated answer below. Sorry, I didn't clearly specify that we will never be making changes in the LIVE player game world. Although, it is very close to that.

    "This won’t work exactly the way in which you are thinking.  The thing is, BackStage is too powerful to allow it to modify the game that the players are in.  What if this  tool leaked out?  That is a real possibility with a team in the hundreds.  The power of god to make instant changes right in the living world, now in the hands of some hacker… yikes!   To make sure this NEVER happens, all of the code and hooks that BackStage uses to modify the world are removed from the Player Game Servers.  This way even if BackStage leaked no one can do anything with it in the game.  However, we run a development server at our Studio that can be modified by BackStage, which runs the exact same world.  As things are discovered in the game and reported, we fix them on that development server, test the changes, and then upload the changes to the game server.  The power of BackStage is that we can make all kinds of changes to the game world, with one tool, and test the modifications immediately, and that is still true in this system.  But for security reasons we need that layer between the Development and Game servers.  And just to note, the Development server code is not available to the people using BackStage, so the chances of it being leaked are remote (think very high security, very limited access).  We just couldn’t have the same kind of security on a tool that every LD needs to use and can have at their own home if they are working from remote."

    "An example of a new feature going in this week is an improvement to our A.I. Net (which allows NPCs to make constant decisions on what they wish to do next). We’re adding a system that improves their choice level so that they can weigh the importance of what they are doing when an outside force acts upon them. If some other Event in the world attempts to impact them, they can decide what they want to do by weighing that new choice against the importance (to them) of what they were doing previously."


    How much RNG in this?

    Although my previous response was correct, Phil would like to me to stress that there IS still an element of RNG, but it is weighted and the level of randomness is controlled by human level designers to provide the most realistic effects. We don't ever want to be accused of being misleading or leading you to believe we have been able to create artificial intelligence :)

     

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030

    Simply put....endgame.  Nothing has ever really provided a truly dynamic endgame experience.  Do that, and I think you're golden. 

    Probably impossible to do?  Yeah, but in my opinion it's the golden ticket for whoever figures it out.

  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by mythranda1
    Originally posted by Helleri
     

     I received some answers from Phil and our Programming team that I'll share below.

    Cherry picking some things that jumped out at me in that blog you linked to ask some questions:

     

    "T3Dv2 uses a variable texture quality system that streams texture resolution changes. This means that as a player gets closer to a textured surface, the texture resolution keeps getting higher, all the way up to 2k x 2k."

    Are you talking about standard texture streaming (texture swapping) but with higher res potential? If so are you forcing pre-caching on the lowest res versions of textures?

    "Our system monitors pixel count density at every given frame for each texture on screen and decides which resolution is best served for that texture.  It is constantly streaming texture resolutions in and out, anticipating what it will need in the near future.   This is not a simple distance based texture resolution swap, it is more analytical than that, and works to keep textures to the maximum resolution needed at that moment, but no more than what is needed for that material (with the maximum being 2048x2048, and the minimum being very small).  Of course, it gets more complex even than that, for as models move into the distance we don’t use textures at all, we actually blend into a voxel or point cloud system on the fly."

    That does sound like a real step above standard methods of controlling texture resolution at different distances. It sounds like you will be able to sit between standard resolutions if the system decides that's appropriate for the distance.


    And, when you say "2k" do you mean 1080p (which is now being called 2k) or 2160p (Which is now being called 4k but is actually 2k by the system that actually works)?

    We are talking about 2048 x 2048 pixel resolution textures, not your monitor’s resolution.

    Sorry. When I read "2k" I didn't think about texture resolution being different from display resolution (I was just fighting the urge to go on a tangent about marketing bs...it appears I have discovered one of my triggers, lol).

    I don't think I have seen resolution that high in....anything 3D. 2D representations of 3D sure (like rendered images or pictures from my phone)...Does resolution that high even need things like height mapping for things like wood or brick grain, or mortar (which of course only has the desired effect from one angle)? Or is it so sharp that it tricks the brain into seeing 3d details? Gawd...I just realized you can't even show it on youtube in a way that could do it justice, lol.


    Also, are you making sure textures that don't use transparency (glass, grass etc.) have no alpha channels? Just saying...it reduces file size by 15-25% depending on compression type/export format.

     Yes, we don’t use Alphas in textures that do not require transparency levels, that would be inefficient.

    Good...I have seen that in so many games it's head spinning. Walk behind a chain, vine, or rope with it between my cam and character, and I am partially erased (thanks OpenGl alpha rendering bug). I just don't get why they don't either make it without or remove the alpha channel. It takes 3 seconds....same thing with those little stars or bars hovering above plant textures that they slap on panes *twinges*. They can't change the offset. Heck half the time it's not even because of offset but because they squashed a cub instead of rendering a plane and it's texturing the ploy that sit between the edges.

    ".imf and .rmf. The first one is our Intermediate Model Format, which stores things 20% smaller, but this format is just for the developer o the game to use, as it allows for many different live adjustments in the game tools. Once the model is done, and ready for players, it saves out into the Run Time Format, and that save down to an amazing 96% reduction in size. Typically, a fairly complex and large structure now saves at 80 bytes."


    Clarification: .rmf... I have heard of this maybe twice (in like 15 years of hobbyism. I think once on Second Life and once on Active worlds back in the day). Never seen it in any program I have used as a native or output format (that I can recall). Is this a new iteration of the extension you developed; Or something Cthulu handed you via one of his face tentacles from the nether regions of the dark net?

    This is a proprietary format created by the team at A3D, it isn’t borrowed from anywhere.

    Okay so it is a new use of the extension (not talking about ripoffs or anything to be clear. Just the name of the formats extension itself). *shrug* why not. No one else is using it any more. That's good. No one can rip your models off if they can't import them to anything.

    "Continents have been generated with large geography elements (mountains, canyons, plains, etc.), these were soil typed with various levels of dirt and rock. Then the water erosion system was started on them, which not only carves rivers and lakes, etc, but based on the soil type and composition, washes sediments downstream, cutting the terrain. Then, based on the new data for the shape of the world, and jumping forward in time, weather patterns are adjusted,"


    The reason we don't have (offline, on earth) 5 to 100 foot strait drops into every stream that exists. Is because animals come to the banks to get a drink (partly...but a big part of it). Water cuts it away. Animals trample and mat it back down at the edges. The question I was leading up to here is...real ecosystem in the works? Herds of hoofed animals keeping water erosion down? Beavers building dams and turning areas into ponds and marshlands?

    Well, that’s partly true.  There are also landslides due to wind, gravity and water erosion.  In many cases, animals use these areas to look for the easiest way down to the water first, and then trample it down further, adding animal erosion, so to speak.  But in other smaller drops (five to ten feet) they may just trample their way down.  We have a system to handle all this, but it is actually part of the road system, which works with the terrain generator.  All roads and paths, right down to game trails, are generated after the terrain is created and initial erosion is completed.  These roads and paths further modify the terrain, after which more erosion is applied.

    It's good to see it counter balanced even if the control for it has nothing to do with the animals. I didn't realize you had a wind factor with erosion as well. I must have missed that in my reading.

    "In other programming news, we have created a new tool called BackStage. This tool is exciting for us as developers, because it is integrating more of our tools into one place, and that tool runs inside the running game. We already had Enact doing this (Enact being the primary game play creation tool set), but we are adding things like the model editor, material editor, set editor, prop editor and particle effects editor, all into BackStage with Enact. This integration of tools into the live game lets Level Designers make changes to virtually everything right in the running game world."


    So, in-game Mods fixing problems as they occur (and come to light through bug reporting) without downtime (as apposed to just using this to tweak play experience)?

     My previous answer on this was a little off. Please see Phil's updated answer below. Sorry, I didn't clearly specify that we will never be making changes in the LIVE player game world. Although, it is very close to that.

    "This won’t work exactly the way in which you are thinking.  The thing is, BackStage is too powerful to allow it to modify the game that the players are in.  What if this  tool leaked out?  That is a real possibility with a team in the hundreds.  The power of god to make instant changes right in the living world, now in the hands of some hacker… yikes!   To make sure this NEVER happens, all of the code and hooks that BackStage uses to modify the world are removed from the Player Game Servers.  This way even if BackStage leaked no one can do anything with it in the game.  However, we run a development server at our Studio that can be modified by BackStage, which runs the exact same world.  As things are discovered in the game and reported, we fix them on that development server, test the changes, and then upload the changes to the game server.  The power of BackStage is that we can make all kinds of changes to the game world, with one tool, and test the modifications immediately, and that is still true in this system.  But for security reasons we need that layer between the Development and Game servers.  And just to note, the Development server code is not available to the people using BackStage, so the chances of it being leaked are remote (think very high security, very limited access).  We just couldn’t have the same kind of security on a tool that every LD needs to use and can have at their own home if they are working from remote."

    Understandable.

    "An example of a new feature going in this week is an improvement to our A.I. Net (which allows NPCs to make constant decisions on what they wish to do next). We’re adding a system that improves their choice level so that they can weigh the importance of what they are doing when an outside force acts upon them. If some other Event in the world attempts to impact them, they can decide what they want to do by weighing that new choice against the importance (to them) of what they were doing previously."


    How much RNG in this?

    Although my previous response was correct, Phil would like to me to stress that there IS still an element of RNG, but it is weighted and the level of randomness is controlled by human level designers to provide the most realistic effects. We don't ever want to be accused of being misleading or leading you to believe we have been able to create artificial intelligence :)

    You know... an NPC on their way to work could choose to stop and look at the flowers if they did it for a fixed amount of time and then chose to run the rest of the way to work (making up for the time they are allowed to lose). 

    Also, when I said RNG I meant Random Number Generation as apposed to Random Number Generator (I have seen it defined as both). But, I should have been more clear...or just said randomness, sorry.

     

    You know...A few years after launch (or if it never gets to launch which is always a possibility. And, as I have stated previously, in the case of such large projects so far shown to be the likely hood). You could probably license out that engine and it's supporting programs/systems. And, thanks for the reply and the information therein.

    image

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