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MMOs could and should be made for everyone

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081

Let me finish before you jump to conclusions. Please !

Vanilla WoW did it right, and they did it wayyyy back in 2004. It's 2015.  How could mmos have gone backwards, I would have never expected that in a million years.

At first I would have thought stupidity, close mindedness, but no. Something else happened that none of us expected. Greed profit margin, bloated cost, and simply do the most you can with as little as possible and let marketing and advertisement sell the game ( remember pre-warhammer ).

 

The time of Vanguard was the change over point. It's the exact time where things began to go wrong for the players !

Developers and programmers started off with a vision. GOOD GAME OR NOT IS NOT THE POINT. This is about the "vision" not the game.  It's not about a few screwball coding practices, but about the 'vision".

Vanguard was to be the Ultimate world. It was to take EverQuest and World of Warcraft and take it to the next level for everyone.  With a huge world, crafting so deep and beyond its time, and diplomacy for something to distract players from everything else if the player chose.  It had the largest world ever, with several unique starting zones.  It was to be seamless, bad coding but seamless none the less.  Lets not forget both PvP and PvE servers.

This was the "vision". The vision was to be released with the full complement. The full complement at release deserves to be mentioned twice, and its own paragraph because it's that important.

But NO. Development was stopped and the game was released.  It was not done, period !!......It's like buying half a car !.....Then crazy politics took over in the background that were not in the players interest for further development.  Nothing what's-so-ever for the player.  Implosion would be the best way to describe it.

 

******** Every mmo after changed, subtracting the fighting between the developers and Investers.  INVESTERS simply took full control. The arguing ended, it was set in stone. Developers were to shut up and program.

 

Now going back to World of Warcraft. It almost seems Blizzard not only had good developers, programmers and a large money pool.  But they had the best foresight ever in the history of gamming.

Foresight ?.....What the hell is this guy even talking about, you ask yourself !.....It's the ability to sit back and think of what players of all kinds would want in there mmo.  REALLY REALLY THINK.  It's almost like Blizzard had social workers and philosophers on the payroll.  Now your saying this guy is crazy, a real loon :)....But think about that game back in 2004.  It' was fun for everyone.  WoW was soooo deep you can be 8 years old, create a character and have some simple fun.  Yet you can be an MIT or Harvard Graduate and deeply develop your character to be the ultimate fighter for the hardest Raids.  

You can play around with the fetch four apples for Maggie's famous apple pies in Goldshire, or take on Deadmines at level 17 with only 3 players if you had the right, well thought out plan......Or you can simply hang out in the safety of Ironforge.

 

Now you can say this about any mmo but WoW took easy to hard and something for everyone to a higher degree.  And yes, back in 2004.  You can't have F2P in an mmo. This changes the fair playing field.  Foresight is replaced by greed.

 

Games with Foresight :

- World of Warcraft

- Vanguard 

- EverQuest 2 

- A few I missed.

 

Games without Foresight:

- The Secret World ( forced story driven )

- FF14 ( forced story driven )

- Elders Scrolls Online ( forced story driven )

- Wildstar( only for the silly )

-StarWars The Old  Republic (forced story driven )

- And most every other mmo beyond 2009.

 

Important :

I better add this......An mmo would have to be very large to have something for everyone.   Earlier mmos' seem to have been larger.

 

 

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Comments

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    The problem is that you need to make compromizes to make a game for everyone and that might actually hurt the game pretty badly.

    Wow was the first MMO with a huge budget, it did have 5 times the budget of other MMOs at it's time and it also had a lot of competent devs working on it. It have been copied many times and usually with abbysmal resaults.

    And Wow did relatively poorly with some types of players, for example is it's PvP not very popular compared to the PvE. Many people say that it is because MMOers prefer PvE and that is right, but the question is why that is. A good game made for PvPers with specific mechanics to support that could beat Wows PvPers without us being to unrealistic.

    Same thing with the players who enjoy exploration and it have just done so-so with groups like crafters.

    Wow did great with really casual players, dungeoneers and raiders but to be honest do I feel that the game is far more focused on those groups than the rest so I am not sure Wow really is made for everyone.

    I think focusing on a smaller but large enough group and making the game perfect for them have a higher potential than making the game for everyone. A game for everyone competes with just everyone on equal setting and for you to make a success you need to be better than everyone.

    A game specifically made for people who enjoys dungeons for example could put way more resources on that and take those players from a game that just put 10% or 20% of those resources for the specific types of players.

    We seen many games trying to go up against Wow on equal terms and failing, games like WAR as example. Not a single one of them have been able to get half of Wows players or even close to that. Generic MMOs have been tried many times and you really still have a single greatly succesful game with no-one else even getting close.

    Time to try something new instead. 

  • rutaqrutaq Member UncommonPosts: 428

    I respect your observations but given the multitude of different play styles; MMO experience, level of competitiveness, etc.  I think designing an MMO for everyone is impossible.   Not to mention once the Producers see a trending in the gaming population that tend to chase the cash leaving everyone else stuck in an MMO that is less for them and more for someone else.

      I would love an MMO that is designed to be inclusive of everyone but can't figure out a way to reconcile the conflicting playstyles like Hardcore vs Casual,  PvP vs. PvE, Crating vs. Looting,  Level based vs. Skill based, Risk welcome vs. Risk averse, Group focused vs. Solo focus, Themepark vs. Sandbox,etc...

    Mixing alot of conflicting playstyles makes the game a management and development nightmare.   Various factions cry that they aren't getting equal attention, don't have access to the same gear, don't get to experience the same content, have to work harder to achieve things, effort is devalued due to nerfs or welfare gear, blah blah blah.

     

    I think the more likely future will be a huge amount of smaller MMOs targeted at specific playstyles.  The tech to run a small MMO is much more approachable for a small team and the middleware has matured at a dramatic pace.   Smaller scale, maybe less polished but less interference from Producers to chase the cash and homogenize the game.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Originally posted by DMKano

    OP - all that is simply your opinion and it's one that I certainly don't agree with.

    Nothing went wrong -MMOs evolve in all aspects - the playerbase, the business practice, monetization, the types of games etc...


    Its evolution on all fronts - just because you happen to disagree with the direction does not make any difference - the train is rolling - and it will keep rolling.

    We can hop on or off, that's all we can do. Nobody can steer the train.

     

    I respectfully and totally value your opinion.  I always read and enjoy your post. We both have different philosophy's.

    So the best I could say were both right.  Some can say mmo's are on an up swing and some say downward, it's all a matter of opinion.  

    Please don't feel that I don't have respect. Because I truly do :)

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by DMKano

    OP - all that is simply your opinion and it's one that I certainly don't agree with.

    Nothing went wrong -MMOs evolve in all aspects - the playerbase, the business practice, monetization, the types of games etc...


    Its evolution on all fronts - just because you happen to disagree with the direction does not make any difference - the train is rolling - and it will keep rolling.

    We can hop on or off, that's all we can do. Nobody can steer the train.

    That isn't exactly true. Specific lead designers and studios can steer the train just like Kaplan and Blizzard did with Wow.

    The thing is that the trains direction is moving away from the Western world and into the East, almost all MMOs with a budget today comes from China, South Korea and Japan.

    In the West are the players playing shorter periods now than a few years back, several studies state that the average players just play a MMO 6 weeks nowadays and with MMOs so expensive to make that have lead to few studios and publishers that dare to make new ones.

    I think Daybreak might be the largest Western studio right now with a MMO in development, possibly excepted Microsoft/Undead labs "Class 4", which we havn't heard anything about the last 2 years. EA have closed down several MMOs including teir Dragon age game, Blizzard themselves cancelled Titan and so on.

    The reason for that can be discussed, maybe have the genre evolved in the the wrong way or maybe have the games just evolved too slowly foe westerners but there havn't been so few western MMOs in development for many years. 

    Hopefully will the kickstarter games change that, or maybe one of the smaller studios like Daybreak. Or Undead labs might actually get their games out and make another huge success (It is lead by Strain who was lead designer on Warcraft 3 and the Guildwars games and worked on Diablo. He was the guy who pitched Wow from the beginning to Blizzard as well, he knows how to make good games).

    But the evolution of Western MMOs have lead to a point where only smaller companies with low budget makes them, that tells us something. That doesn't mean there aren't a few relatively new good MMOs out there but the larger publishers focus on MOBAs instead.

  • madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 2,115

    WOW....

     

    seriously... what an absolutely terrible perspective a person could have. "Everyone should play the same MMO". This has been a huge problem for MMO games. People find a PvP based MMO and cry it should have PvE servers, and likewise for PvE based games adding PvP. No MMO is going to make everyone happy because its literally IMPOSSIBLE. If I want to kill someone in a city HUB because its the game I like, there is no way to make that possible in a world of PvE'ers. So add cities that be attacked and some cant? Hate that idea, now you are segregating the world and making it even more unbelievable. How about people can flag for PvP or not? Hate that too... 

     

    Let games specialize to their audiences. A lot of us (re; all of us) don't want to play the exact same game. So OP... next time you have such a terrible idea about MMO's, maybe present it to a smaller group of people rather than immediately putting it out there to embarrass yourself.

     

     

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Originally posted by madazz

    WOW....

     

    seriously... what an absolutely terrible perspective a person could have. "Everyone should play the same MMO". This has been a huge problem for MMO games. People find a PvP based MMO and cry it should have PvE servers, and likewise for PvE based games adding PvP. No MMO is going to make everyone happy because its literally IMPOSSIBLE. If I want to kill someone in a city HUB because its the game I like, there is no way to make that possible in a world of PvE'ers. So add cities that be attacked and some cant? Hate that idea, now you are segregating the world and making it even more unbelievable. How about people can flag for PvP or not? Hate that too... 

     

    Let games specialize to their audiences. A lot of us (re; all of us) don't want to play the exact same game. So OP... next time you have such a terrible idea about MMO's, maybe present it to a smaller group of people rather than immediately putting it out there to embarrass yourself.

     

     

    Your doing a little twist around. " Everyone should play the same mmo "....come on, When did I say that ?

     

    Some like EQ2 style, some like WoWs style some like FF11s style.  STYLE of worlds in fantasy alone plays a large part, sure. Then you have Fantasy, SiFi and History.  BUT each example can have something for everyone.....Pic your style :)

     

    Foresight back in 2004 Blizzard made PvP and PvE servers. That shows " Foresight "right their.

     

    MMO's would need to be LARGE to have something for everyone.

  • madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 2,115
    Originally posted by delete5230
    Originally posted by madazz

    WOW....

     

    seriously... what an absolutely terrible perspective a person could have. "Everyone should play the same MMO". This has been a huge problem for MMO games. People find a PvP based MMO and cry it should have PvE servers, and likewise for PvE based games adding PvP. No MMO is going to make everyone happy because its literally IMPOSSIBLE. If I want to kill someone in a city HUB because its the game I like, there is no way to make that possible in a world of PvE'ers. So add cities that be attacked and some cant? Hate that idea, now you are segregating the world and making it even more unbelievable. How about people can flag for PvP or not? Hate that too... 

     

    Let games specialize to their audiences. A lot of us (re; all of us) don't want to play the exact same game. So OP... next time you have such a terrible idea about MMO's, maybe present it to a smaller group of people rather than immediately putting it out there to embarrass yourself.

     

     

    Your doing a little twist around. " Everyone should play the same mmo "....come on, When did I say that ?

     

    Some like EQ2 style, some like WoWs style some like FF11s style.  STYLE of worlds in fantasy alone plays a large part, sure. Then you have Fantasy, SiFi and History.  BUT each example can have something for everyone.....Pic your style :)

     

    Foresight back in 2004 Blizzard made PvP and PvE servers. That shows " Foresight "right their.

     

    MMO's would need to be LARGE to have something for everyone.

    Games CANNOT successfully be made for everyone. It is impossible. You CANNOT PLEASE EVERYONE. There is a reason that is a common saying, and has been for thousands of years. There is no way a game can make PvP and PvE servers and still cater to everyone. You want games to be good at everything, and great at nothing. I want a great game that specializes to its target audience.

     

    Its people like you that created the Rom-com (romance comedies). Now, guys like me who want to go see a flick to laugh have to be wary as to whether the movie is actually a romance or not. And there is no awesome rom-coms. Just some that gained a bit of popularity. Where as there are many, many legendary comedy movies because they specialized in comedies. Just as there are a bunch of legendary romance movies. But when you try to make a movie to make everyone happy... you end up with something that gets a few giggles but is otherwise unremarkable. (to be clear, I am not stating a romance movie cannot contain comedy)

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by delete5230
    Originally posted by madazz

    WOW....

     

    seriously... what an absolutely terrible perspective a person could have. "Everyone should play the same MMO". This has been a huge problem for MMO games. People find a PvP based MMO and cry it should have PvE servers, and likewise for PvE based games adding PvP. No MMO is going to make everyone happy because its literally IMPOSSIBLE. If I want to kill someone in a city HUB because its the game I like, there is no way to make that possible in a world of PvE'ers. So add cities that be attacked and some cant? Hate that idea, now you are segregating the world and making it even more unbelievable. How about people can flag for PvP or not? Hate that too... 

     

    Let games specialize to their audiences. A lot of us (re; all of us) don't want to play the exact same game. So OP... next time you have such a terrible idea about MMO's, maybe present it to a smaller group of people rather than immediately putting it out there to embarrass yourself.

     

     

    Your doing a little twist around. " Everyone should play the same mmo "....come on, When did I say that ?

     

    Some like EQ2 style, some like WoWs style some like FF11s style.  STYLE of worlds in fantasy alone plays a large part, sure. Then you have Fantasy, SiFi and History.  BUT each example can have something for everyone.....Pic your style :)

     

    Foresight back in 2004 Blizzard made PvP and PvE servers. That shows " Foresight "right their.

     

    MMO's would need to be LARGE to have something for everyone.

    Games CANNOT successfully be made for everyone. It is impossible. You CANNOT PLEASE EVERYONE. There is a reason that is a common saying, and has been for thousands of years. There is no way a game can make PvP and PvE servers and still cater to everyone. You want games to be good at everything, and great at nothing. I want a great game that specializes to its target audience.

     

    Its people like you that created the Rom-com (romance comedies). Now, guys like me who want to go see a flick to laugh have to be wary as to whether the movie is actually a romance or not. And there is no awesome rom-coms. Just some that gained a bit of popularity. Where as there are many, many legendary comedy movies because they specialized in comedies. Just as there are a bunch of legendary romance movies. But when you try to make a movie to make everyone happy... you end up with something that gets a few giggles but is otherwise unremarkable. (to be clear, I am not stating a romance movie cannot contain comedy)

    I can't help it that your stuck on " one game made for everyone ' Idea.

     

    But I made a decision sometime back that I'll not argue with splitting hairs and arguing an EXACT definition of a word or a single stance.

     

    Please read the entire post carefully.  Open your mind and get the overall point, instead of only reading the headline, misunderstand it and run with it.  Even if the headline in not your prefect wording that you would use. Even then you don't have to agree with the post, but try and not miss-interpret.

    I'm not gonna argue about this anymore !

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Originally posted by delete5230

     

    Games without Foresight:

    - The Secret World ( forced story driven ),

    - FF14 ( forced story driven ),

    - Wildstar( only for the silly ),

    - And most every other mmo beyond 2009.

     

    They had plenty of foresight. They just chose to focus on specific segments of the playerbase, or niches if you prefer.

    Sure, it didn't work out as well for some of them (TSW and Wildstar being two that underperformed) but FF14 is currently one of the most successful MMOs out there, probably number two after WoW - on the western market at least.

    Just because you hate story content doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of other MMO players out there that love it. Heck, most of the games you describe whenever you do your huge posts sound boring as hell to me, but I can accept that there are people that enjoy them.

    MMOs still evolve constantly, they just happen to be moving away from the direction that you want them to go in.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by delete5230

     

    Games without Foresight:

    - The Secret World ( forced story driven ),

    - FF14 ( forced story driven ),

    - Wildstar( only for the silly ),

    - And most every other mmo beyond 2009.

     

    They had plenty of foresight. They just chose to focus on specific segments of the playerbase, or niches if you prefer.

    Sure, it didn't work out as well for some of them (TSW and Wildstar being two that underperformed) but FF14 is currently one of the most successful MMOs out there, probably number two after WoW - on the western market at least.

    Just because you hate story content doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of other MMO players out there that love it. Heck, most of the games you describe whenever you do your huge posts sound boring as hell to me, but I can accept that there are people that enjoy them.

    MMOs still evolve constantly, they just happen to be moving away from the direction that you want them to go in.

    I completely agree with this, and I m on the MMOs are a dying breed camp now. I sub to FFXI and DAOC for a reason. FFXIV is the latest example of sleep inducing formula to me, just can t get past a week without saying ok that's the last time I sub to that, yet I keep trying. Wife and I finally decided to uninstall it, and re sub DAOC again alongside FFXI. I think unless something decent comes out in our opinions anyways, in the next year or 2, we ll be done with MMOs after our old faves shut down.

     

  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,101
    Originally posted by delete5230
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by delete5230
    Originally posted by madazz

    WOW....

     

    seriously... what an absolutely terrible perspective a person could have. "Everyone should play the same MMO". This has been a huge problem for MMO games. People find a PvP based MMO and cry it should have PvE servers, and likewise for PvE based games adding PvP. No MMO is going to make everyone happy because its literally IMPOSSIBLE. If I want to kill someone in a city HUB because its the game I like, there is no way to make that possible in a world of PvE'ers. So add cities that be attacked and some cant? Hate that idea, now you are segregating the world and making it even more unbelievable. How about people can flag for PvP or not? Hate that too... 

     

    Let games specialize to their audiences. A lot of us (re; all of us) don't want to play the exact same game. So OP... next time you have such a terrible idea about MMO's, maybe present it to a smaller group of people rather than immediately putting it out there to embarrass yourself.

     

     

    Your doing a little twist around. " Everyone should play the same mmo "....come on, When did I say that ?

     

    Some like EQ2 style, some like WoWs style some like FF11s style.  STYLE of worlds in fantasy alone plays a large part, sure. Then you have Fantasy, SiFi and History.  BUT each example can have something for everyone.....Pic your style :)

     

    Foresight back in 2004 Blizzard made PvP and PvE servers. That shows " Foresight "right their.

     

    MMO's would need to be LARGE to have something for everyone.

    Games CANNOT successfully be made for everyone. It is impossible. You CANNOT PLEASE EVERYONE. There is a reason that is a common saying, and has been for thousands of years. There is no way a game can make PvP and PvE servers and still cater to everyone. You want games to be good at everything, and great at nothing. I want a great game that specializes to its target audience.

     

    Its people like you that created the Rom-com (romance comedies). Now, guys like me who want to go see a flick to laugh have to be wary as to whether the movie is actually a romance or not. And there is no awesome rom-coms. Just some that gained a bit of popularity. Where as there are many, many legendary comedy movies because they specialized in comedies. Just as there are a bunch of legendary romance movies. But when you try to make a movie to make everyone happy... you end up with something that gets a few giggles but is otherwise unremarkable. (to be clear, I am not stating a romance movie cannot contain comedy)

    I can't help it that your stuck on " one game made for everyone ' Idea.

     

    But I made a decision sometime back that I'll not argue with splitting hairs and arguing an EXACT definition of a word or a single stance.

     

    Please read the entire post carefully.  Open your mind and get the overall point, instead of only reading the headline, misunderstand it and run with it.  Even if the headline in not your prefect wording that you would use. Even then you don't have to agree with the post, but try and not miss-interpret.

    I'm not gonna argue about this anymore !

    He is straw-manning you. Just ignore people who do that around here. They take your whole point and wrap it around a false premise and only argue with you on that one point. Happens a lot on forums

    I agree OP, the genre sucks now and it is sad. I settle for games like GW2 and FFXIV. Archeage is the only modern game that has come close ot capturing that old school feel, and they screwed that up royally with a couple of months of release.

    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012

    OP I respectfully disagree.  Look at WOW.  This game tried to be made for Everyone and it has turned into a Pile of crap.  Why?  We need to cater to the 15 a minute a week gammer, then the hardcore gamer, then the gamer who just wants to play farmville.  Yet everything they done makes the game weak where people get bored fast and play for short periods of time then quits for months to a year at a time.

     

    NO MMOs should not be made for everyone.  Take the 15 a Minute a week gamer.  They do not belong playing MMORPGs because if you allow content to be as watered down for these people large amounts of the population play this content say ok I got Epic gear no point in getting better Epic gear.   Guess what?  This is what WOW has done and the majority of the players I raided with in the past come back to WOW for 1 month after a patch is released get Epic gear and then leave again.  They will not put the effort in getting better gear why?  Not because they dont want to, because they already have Epic gear and organized raiding which many did before LFR dont care to put that much effort into it for an item thats a few iLvLs higher.  

     

    There is one thing adding non raid content into an MMO like FFXIV does where people can do dungeons to get better gear, or craft, or spend time getting gil for their house.  Its another giving them the best gear just because you dont want to hurt their feelings.  

     

    MMOs are Hobby based games that has a huge cost that come with it.  Trying to make an MMO for everyone is not possible it should be made for MMO players not single player types, not Farmvillie types, not P2W types, and so on.  People who want a deep game that takes time to do things in.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by delete5230

    ........

     

    Games with Foresight :

    - World of Warcraft

    - Vanguard 

    - EverQuest 2 

    - A few I missed.

     

    Games without Foresight:

    - The Secret World ( forced story driven )

    - FF14 ( forced story driven )

    - Elders Scrolls Online ( forced story driven )

    - Wildstar( only for the silly )

    -StarWars The Old  Republic (forced story driven )

    - And most every other mmo beyond 2009.

     ......

    It's really unfortunate that you've pigeon-holed these games as not having any foresight. You say "forced story driven" like it's a bad thing. Both WoW and EQ were equally "forced story driven". The fact that there is a story within the game doesn't make it forced, btw. In fact, SWTOR does story better than WoW or EQ ever did. I really lament people who trivialize story in games. It's a damn game!!! It should have a great story!!!! Isn't that the whole point? No! Seems like people these days want a grinder. Just stick me in a cubic mile environment and continuously spawn mobs and call it "Open World". That's bull. There should always be a purpose. And there was in WoW and EQ and Vanguard!!! 

     

    Secondly, you completely discredit yourself by saying that Wildstar is "only for the silly". It shows that you're completely and utterly untrustworthy as an impartial source of information. See, Wildstar actually DID have more foresight than many games these days and chose a very niche path on a number of levels (telegraphing and difficulty were huge ones) and they paid dearly for it. I'm fairly certain, though, that Wildstar was/is more difficult than any other game currently available, despite people thinking that telegraphs would simply make it too easy. 

     

    Sorry, but the whole post just reeks of a typical "remember how great things used to be" post, provides little to no redeeming value, nor does it provide any sort of impartial thinking, or much of any thought at all. If you honestly can fail to see the foresight in the games that you've listed, there's nothing I can do or say that will sway you, I'm sure. So I won't. It's just too bad is all. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Originally posted by danwest58

    OP I respectfully disagree.  Look at WOW.  This game tried to be made for Everyone and it has turned into a Pile of crap.  Why?  We need to cater to the 15 a minute a week gammer, then the hardcore gamer, then the gamer who just wants to play farmville.  Yet everything they done makes the game weak where people get bored fast and play for short periods of time then quits for months to a year at a time.

     

    NO MMOs should not be made for everyone.  Take the 15 a Minute a week gamer.  They do not belong playing MMORPGs because if you allow content to be as watered down for these people large amounts of the population play this content say ok I got Epic gear no point in getting better Epic gear.   Guess what?  This is what WOW has done and the majority of the players I raided with in the past come back to WOW for 1 month after a patch is released get Epic gear and then leave again.  They will not put the effort in getting better gear why?  Not because they dont want to, because they already have Epic gear and organized raiding which many did before LFR dont care to put that much effort into it for an item thats a few iLvLs higher.  

     

    There is one thing adding non raid content into an MMO like FFXIV does where people can do dungeons to get better gear, or craft, or spend time getting gil for their house.  Its another giving them the best gear just because you dont want to hurt their feelings.  

     

    MMOs are Hobby based games that has a huge cost that come with it.  Trying to make an MMO for everyone is not possible it should be made for MMO players not single player types, not Farmvillie types, not P2W types, and so on.  People who want a deep game that takes time to do things in.

    WOW very powerfull stuff.  Thank you :)

     

    Well, separated from my Original post. I would like to give my opinion on what World of Warcraft has become today. Please understand this is only my opinion :

     

    The Vanilla Wow of 2004 was a perfect mix for everyone, if you liked the style.  If they continued with that original formula and expanded on it.  It could be doing even better than 9 million.

     

    BUT INSTEAD THEY CHANGED EVERYTHING, It's un recognizable to Vanilla. Not the same in anyway way.  They mede it to almost only cater to Easy.....This is no longer a game for everyone. It's a new game. So the World of Warcraft of the past is a good example, this version is not.

     

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,094

    Vanguard actually wasnt for everyone in the end anymore. To get the best equipment, you've been FORCED to do crafting and diplomacy. Now crafting was no issue to me, but I really, really hate card games and thus I was not thrilled to having to level basically every one of my highlevel characters again and again through the same ordeal.

    The worst part of Vanguard was btw fishing:

    (a) You could NOT reassign the buttons.

    (b) The buttons you had to use have been so akwardly chosen that you couldnt have one finger on each of them.

    (c) It was time based. Guess what, I was an european player and the server was in the USA. I had no realistic chance.

     

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by DMKano

    When I said the train I was referring to the entire MMO industry, lead designers have control over their own games but the industry as a whole is not in any individual company hands.

    Big companies are still making MMOs - they are just not making the same old MMOs. Many big companies have smaller indie size Dev teams spinning up MMOS - look at Daybreak h1z1 - that team is smaller than 30 people, look at Trion's Trove - that's 11 devs. Etc... Even Blizzards Overwatch has a much smaller team behind it than whst Blizzard normally does.

    Moba's are a tough space to get into as the MOBA players have no interest in leaving LoL and Dota2 which is 95% of the playerbase. So many companies are staying away from MOBA'S because of this.

    MMO business is HARD the playerbase is changing rapidly, devs are making games for the market that's 3-5 years into the future as that's how long it takes to get a game out. It's a real bitch considwring the cost, time and effort, unpredictability, and the fickle playerbase

    EQ1 was a huge success (for its time), WoW was a huge success, then the market shifted to LoL being the biggest success so far. The next big success will outdo LoL and it will be something completely different, a new type of game entirely IMO, possibly a new genre

    You are most likely right there, I just hope that whatever turns out will be a bit closer to pen and paper RPGs then before... MMORPG still have a huge potential but maybe not so much in it's current shape. Maybe merging current gen MMOs with a game like Sword coast Legends could create something different, a game where players also could DM with a point system for it.

    But I wouldn't call Daybreak that big, Blizzard-Activision, Valve, EA, Rockstar, Bethesda and Ubisoft are big. Daybreak, CCP, Turbine and simlar companies are pretty small.

    The biggest company currently making MMOs is NC soft.

  • uidLuc1duidLuc1d Member UncommonPosts: 194
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Let me finish before you jump to conclusions. Please !

    Vanilla WoW did it right

     

    I'm proud of how far I got into this post before moving on.

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by DMKano

    When I said the train I was referring to the entire MMO industry, lead designers have control over their own games but the industry as a whole is not in any individual company hands.

    Big companies are still making MMOs - they are just not making the same old MMOs. Many big companies have smaller indie size Dev teams spinning up MMOS - look at Daybreak h1z1 - that team is smaller than 30 people, look at Trion's Trove - that's 11 devs. Etc... Even Blizzards Overwatch has a much smaller team behind it than whst Blizzard normally does.

    Moba's are a tough space to get into as the MOBA players have no interest in leaving LoL and Dota2 which is 95% of the playerbase. So many companies are staying away from MOBA'S because of this.

    MMO business is HARD the playerbase is changing rapidly, devs are making games for the market that's 3-5 years into the future as that's how long it takes to get a game out. It's a real bitch considwring the cost, time and effort, unpredictability, and the fickle playerbase

    EQ1 was a huge success (for its time), WoW was a huge success, then the market shifted to LoL being the biggest success so far. The next big success will outdo LoL and it will be something completely different, a new type of game entirely IMO, possibly a new genre

    You are most likely right there, I just hope that whatever turns out will be a bit closer to pen and paper RPGs then before... MMORPG still have a huge potential but maybe not so much in it's current shape. Maybe merging current gen MMOs with a game like Sword coast Legends could create something different, a game where players also could DM with a point system for it.

    But I wouldn't call Daybreak that big, Blizzard-Activision, Valve, EA, Rockstar, Bethesda and Ubisoft are big. Daybreak, CCP, Turbine and simlar companies are pretty small.

    The biggest company currently making MMOs is NC soft.

    Cryptic's also working on one at the moment, aren't they?

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Vanguard actually wasnt for everyone in the end anymore. To get the best equipment, you've been FORCED to do crafting and diplomacy. Now crafting was no issue to me, but I really, really hate card games and thus I was not thrilled to having to level basically every one of my highlevel characters again and again through the same ordeal.

    The worst part of Vanguard was btw fishing:

    (a) You could NOT reassign the buttons.

    (b) The buttons you had to use have been so akwardly chosen that you couldnt have one finger on each of them.

    (c) It was time based. Guess what, I was an european player and the server was in the USA. I had no realistic chance.

     

    Well Vanguard was older, The real vision was there but not perfect. If it were done properly and a finished mmo, AND took off as successful like they were hoping, the game could have evolved deeper and perfected more. And more for everyone.

     

    Tweaked, for better words.

  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327

     

    This thread alone has proved, and will continue to prove, why MMOs can not be made for everyone.  And that is because we are all different with different gaming preferences.  That holds true today more than it ever has in the evolution of the MMO industry.  Everyone always loves to reference vanilla WoW as this exceptional MMORPG due to its player base numbers not taking into account that a lot of what garnered WoW its success was that it was released at the perfect time in the evolution of the MMORPG industry to the masses.  Wow did not have much competition at the time and not only did they already have a built in player base upon release, they also did an exceptional job at marketing the game.  The majority of people playing WoW today are not even gamers in the conventional sense.  They are just people who where introduced to Wow by friends and have remained subscribed to WoW because of friends.  They know, nor have any interest, in any other MMO.  For many, WoW is just another online social construct no different than Facebook.  If vanilla WoW was to be released today its fate would not be much different than most other AAA MMORPGs released today. 

     

    Originally posted by delete5230

    Games with Foresight :

    - World of Warcraft

    - Vanguard 

    - EverQuest 2 

    - A few I missed.

     

    Games without Foresight:

    - The Secret World ( forced story driven )

    - FF14 ( forced story driven )

    - Elders Scrolls Online ( forced story driven )

    - Wildstar( only for the silly )

    -StarWars The Old  Republic (forced story driven )

    - And most every other mmo beyond 2009.

     

    Please explain what you mean by "with foresight" and "without foresight" because it doesn't make any sense to me.  These are are all MMORPGs so it stands to reason that they be story driven.  Story drives the lore behind an MMORPG. If anything it proves that "forced story driven" is the majority (close as it gets to everyone) preference since it is what the numbers have proved to sell the best.  

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Originally posted by LacedOpium

     

    This thread alone has proved, and will continue to prove, why MMOs can not be made for everyone.  And that is because we are all different with different gaming preferences.  That's holds true today more than it ever has in the evolution of the MMO industry.  Everyone always loves to reference vanilla WoW as this exceptional MMORPG due to its player base numbers not taking into account that a lot of what garnered WoW that player base was that it was released at the perfect time in the evolution of the MMORPG industry to the masses.  Wow did not have much competition at the time and not only did they already have a built in player base upon release, they also did an exceptional job at marketing the game.  The majority of people playing WoW today are not even gamers in the conventional sense.  They are just people who where introduced to Wow by friends and have remained subscribed to WoW because of friends.  They know, nor have any interest, in any other MMO.  For many, WoW is just an online social construct no different than Facebook.  If vanilla WoW was to be released today its fate would not be much different than most other AAA MMORPGs released today. 

     

    Originally posted by delete5230

    Games with Foresight :

    - World of Warcraft

    - Vanguard 

    - EverQuest 2 

    - A few I missed.

     

    Games without Foresight:

    - The Secret World ( forced story driven )

    - FF14 ( forced story driven )

    - Elders Scrolls Online ( forced story driven )

    - Wildstar( only for the silly )

    -StarWars The Old  Republic (forced story driven )

    - And most every other mmo beyond 2009.

     

    Please explain what you mean by "foresight" and "without foresight" because it doesn't make any sense to me.  These are are all MMORPGs so it stands to reason that they be story driven.  Story drives the lore behind an MMORPG. If anything it proves that "forced story driven" is the majority (close as it gets to everyone) preference since it is what the numbers proves sells the best.  

    Two list

    One with forced story driven ( no choice )

    One with the option to search out the story if you so chose. something for everyone :)

     

    Many games lack options. Sure you don't have to, you don't have to do anything, but see where it gets you if not.

     

    To put it another way :

    WoW, some people care deeply about the lore.  Me ?  I don't care.....something about the Horde don't like Alliance, I guess. But I love the  game just as much as the other types.

     

     

     

  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    Originally posted by delete5230
    Originally posted by LacedOpium

     

    This thread alone has proved, and will continue to prove, why MMOs can not be made for everyone.  And that is because we are all different with different gaming preferences.  That's holds true today more than it ever has in the evolution of the MMO industry.  Everyone always loves to reference vanilla WoW as this exceptional MMORPG due to its player base numbers not taking into account that a lot of what garnered WoW that player base was that it was released at the perfect time in the evolution of the MMORPG industry to the masses.  Wow did not have much competition at the time and not only did they already have a built in player base upon release, they also did an exceptional job at marketing the game.  The majority of people playing WoW today are not even gamers in the conventional sense.  They are just people who where introduced to Wow by friends and have remained subscribed to WoW because of friends.  They know, nor have any interest, in any other MMO.  For many, WoW is just an online social construct no different than Facebook.  If vanilla WoW was to be released today its fate would not be much different than most other AAA MMORPGs released today. 

     

    Originally posted by delete5230

    Games with Foresight :

    - World of Warcraft

    - Vanguard 

    - EverQuest 2 

    - A few I missed.

     

    Games without Foresight:

    - The Secret World ( forced story driven )

    - FF14 ( forced story driven )

    - Elders Scrolls Online ( forced story driven )

    - Wildstar( only for the silly )

    -StarWars The Old  Republic (forced story driven )

    - And most every other mmo beyond 2009.

     

    Please explain what you mean by "foresight" and "without foresight" because it doesn't make any sense to me.  These are are all MMORPGs so it stands to reason that they be story driven.  Story drives the lore behind an MMORPG. If anything it proves that "forced story driven" is the majority (close as it gets to everyone) preference since it is what the numbers proves sells the best.  

    Two list

    One with forced story driven ( no choice )

    One with the option to search out the story if you so chose. something for everyone :)

     

    Many games lack options. Sure you don't have to, you don't have to do anything, but see where it gets you if not.

     

     

     

     

    Proclaiming having an option to "search out a story" in an MMO as "something for everyone" is a huge overstatement, to put it mildly. 

     

    Originally posted by delete5230

    To put it another way :

    WoW, some people care deeply about the lore.  Me ?  I don't care.....something about the Horde don't like Alliance, I guess. But I love the  game just as much as the other types.

     

     

    ... and we're back to preferences.

  • ceratop001ceratop001 Member RarePosts: 1,594
    Why we all sit here and debate semantics more bad games are getting released everyday. Quick money because of inherent greed drives the economy nowadays. Nothing of real quality or substance is ever developed  anymore. It almost feels like the gaming industry is serving us fast food entertainment. Your choice of bad food fresh and hot.
     
  • moonboundmoonbound Member UncommonPosts: 396
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Let me finish before you jump to conclusions. Please !

    Vanilla WoW did it right, and they did it wayyyy back in 2004. It's 2015.  How could mmos have gone backwards, I would have never expected that in a million years.

    At first I would have thought stupidity, close mindedness, but no. Something else happened that none of us expected. Greed profit margin, bloated cost, and simply do the most you can with as little as possible and let marketing and advertisement sell the game ( remember pre-warhammer ).

     

    The time of Vanguard was the change over point. It's the exact time where things began to go wrong for the players !

    Developers and programmers started off with a vision. GOOD GAME OR NOT IS NOT THE POINT. This is about the "vision" not the game.  It's not about a few screwball coding practices, but about the 'vision".

    Vanguard was to be the Ultimate world. It was to take EverQuest and World of Warcraft and take it to the next level for everyone.  With a huge world, crafting so deep and beyond its time, and diplomacy for something to distract players from everything else if the player chose.  It had the largest world ever, with several unique starting zones.  It was to be seamless, bad coding but seamless none the less.  Lets not forget both PvP and PvE servers.

    This was the "vision". The vision was to be released with the full complement. The full complement at release deserves to be mentioned twice, and its own paragraph because it's that important.

    But NO. Development was stopped and the game was released.  It was not done, period !!......It's like buying half a car !.....Then crazy politics took over in the background that were not in the players interest for further development.  Nothing what's-so-ever for the player.  Implosion would be the best way to describe it.

     

    ******** Every mmo after changed, subtracting the fighting between the developers and Investers.  INVESTERS simply took full control. The arguing ended, it was set in stone. Developers were to shut up and program.

     

    Now going back to World of Warcraft. It almost seems Blizzard not only had good developers, programmers and a large money pool.  But they had the best foresight ever in the history of gamming.

    Foresight ?.....What the hell is this guy even talking about, you ask yourself !.....It's the ability to sit back and think of what players of all kinds would want in there mmo.  REALLY REALLY THINK.  It's almost like Blizzard had social workers and philosophers on the payroll.  Now your saying this guy is crazy, a real loon :)....But think about that game back in 2004.  It' was fun for everyone.  WoW was soooo deep you can be 8 years old, create a character and have some simple fun.  Yet you can be an MIT or Harvard Graduate and deeply develop your character to be the ultimate fighter for the hardest Raids.  

    You can play around with the fetch four apples for Maggie's famous apple pies in Goldshire, or take on Deadmines at level 17 with only 3 players if you had the right, well thought out plan......Or you can simply hang out in the safety of Ironforge.

     

    Now you can say this about any mmo but WoW took easy to hard and something for everyone to a higher degree.  And yes, back in 2004.  You can't have F2P in an mmo. This changes the fair playing field.  Foresight is replaced by greed.

     

    Games with Foresight :

    - World of Warcraft

    - Vanguard 

    - EverQuest 2 

    - A few I missed.

     

    Games without Foresight:

    - The Secret World ( forced story driven )

    - FF14 ( forced story driven )

    - Elders Scrolls Online ( forced story driven )

    - Wildstar( only for the silly )

    -StarWars The Old  Republic (forced story driven )

    - And most every other mmo beyond 2009.

     

    Important :

    I better add this......An mmo would have to be very large to have something for everyone.   Earlier mmos' seem to have been larger.

     

     

    Vangaurd was a horrible launch and that is why it did not do well, mmorpgs with a bad launch has a 80 percent chance of surviving down the road unless they advertise correctly and enough people praise the updates. And when it comes to mmorpgs yes people want freedom they want choices for the most part, and that is why themepark mmorpgs should be labeled different, anyways we need more mmos like vangaurd there are plenty of themepark mmorpgs out there.

     

    Also tsw and eso may be story driven but they have classless system and plenty of depth rpg wise where you get plenty of choices and choices in the story as well they are not as themeparked as other mmos, there kind of a nice balance.

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495

    Personaly I really can not see how WOW did it right in the sense of a game for everyone. To me WoW was a hugh step backwards, limited gameplay and above all targetted towards a specific demographic which consisted mostly out of combat oriented gameplay with every none-combat feature being slapped on.

    Now I fully respect WoW/Blizzard for what they have achieved releasing a game at the right time, bombing the world with smart advertising and making a game that was playable at almost any computer even if you had a 5+ year  pc at the time people could still fully enjoy the game. To me that is the only reason why WoW became so succesfull. MMORPG before it where mainly made for those with more specialized gaming systems and back then we didn't cover the masses that came into this genre when internet became mainstream.

    Unfortunaly with today's masses it's almost impossible to create a MMORPG for everyone. Main reason are the masses now into this genre. They scream and shout if they can't acces almost anything ingame because let's face it many feel very intittled to get everything. 

    And MMORPG evolve most definitly not because of gamecompany's or this so called "suits" myth. (Personaly find blaming suits to be very weak excuses) but due to it's player base and their loud demands. Proof is to just look at today's MMO's and if you have been on forums from the past, remembering those complaints really explains why this genre is what it is today. And only some brave soul/indie developer might refresh this genre.

    But as said not counting on MMORPG to become a game for everyone, sure it would be my wish to have it that way, but I know I am outnumbered........

     

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