All I want is to play a Dwarf Pally

sludgebeard

Seriously, I remember playing A Dwarf Paladin in Everquest and then again in WoW, and it was the best Race/Class combo for me. Its weird to think that I cant even play that simple Fantasy combo anymore, because there's no value behind Dwarves in common MMO's, most small races are now gnome/hobbit variants rather than dwarves, and there really no point in being a "Palaldin" because theres no Trinity anymore.

 

That was the best thing about being a Paladin, was that you got to tank, and heal at the same time. Being in the midst of the fray, while playing the support always felt super rewarding to me, it took alot of multi-tasking and many people I know refused to play it, but for me it was worth the extra effort. I really felt like the person holding the team up, and it allowed me to charge into battle and get some swings in and even finish off a big boss if things went south for my companions.

 

My current hope is that Pantheon will provide me this combo because I know how passionate the team has been about the classic MMO trinity feel, and their Dwarves Lore seems a cut above what other games are trying to do IE: They seem more "Mythical" or Magic, rather than just smiths with guns or brutish warriors.

 

Anyone else miss this classic Race/Class combo in your MMO's? Anyone else got some cool stories about being a Dwarf Pally in EQ or some other oldschool games?

Flyte27

It seems to me that all races have lost their value.  This comes with taking away emphasis on culture/race and focusing more on aesthetics and fighting IMO.  Once you take away the general stereo types for cultures and races they cease to be interesting anymore.  They become just the same as anyone else.  What makes a dwarf interesting is not their size, but their culture (for instance they are generally smiths, crafters, have a tendency for greed of shiny objects, and often have a foul temper).  If you take that away they lose their identity and most people wouldn't play a dwarf for their appearance alone.

SavageHorizon

Did you ever play a dwarf paladin  in Vanguard. I also liked the Vanguard plate wearing Cleric. You could use 1h and shield or 2h which could be hammer or spear or club. On top of that you could throw weapons as well. 

 

Although none came close to my favourite which was the deciple and tuurgin bear shamen. 

Fangrim

They still have them in EQ2

 

sludgebeard

Originally posted by Flyte27
It seems to me that all races have lost their value.  This comes with taking away emphasis on culture/race and focusing more on aesthetics and fighting IMO.  Once you take away the general stereo types for cultures and races they cease to be interesting anymore.  They become just the same as anyone else.  What makes a dwarf interesting is not their size, but their culture (for instance they are generally smiths, crafters, have a tendency for greed of shiny objects, and often have a foul temper).  If you take that away they lose their identity and most people wouldn't play a dwarf for their appearance alone.

I completely agree, I feel like many MMO devs remove those stereotypes and instead make the races lore - Up to interpretation. As in, they dont go too far into the backstory because like you said, its about the combat and the animations. 

Me for example, I love a stereotypical dwarf, the mead chugging, hammer smithing, crass humored dwarf is the stereotype I grew up on, and I still enjoy seeing that. 

Even in that terrible DnD movie, the Dwarf character was a giant stereotype, but he was the most interesting character by far, because you understood him, he was simple but effective. 

Its so strange to think they dont put effort into developing the lore of these races and just make them fun again, and not have every race be a statement or up to a players interpretation. 

sludgebeard

Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Did you ever play a dwarf paladin  in Vanguard. 

Yes!! I did actually, although IMO the Dwarf Starting Area in Vanguard was extremely poor in design, in fact in beta they had a more rocky, explorative starting zone that I liked alot more. Right before Closed Beta 3 they redesigned it and made it a much more flat-plained area until you reached the castle and it just seemed a little too straight forward for me. But still I loved playing a Dwarf Pally in that game!

SavageHorizon

Originally posted by sludgebeard

Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Did you ever play a dwarf paladin  in Vanguard. 

Yes!! I did actually, although IMO the Dwarf Starting Area in Vanguard was extremely poor in design, in fact in beta they had a more rocky, explorative starting zone that I liked alot more. Right before Closed Beta 3 they redesigned it and made it a much more flat-plained area until you reached the castle and it just seemed a little too straight forward for me. But still I loved playing a Dwarf Pally in that game!

Yeah I agree about the starting area on Thestra it was poor and didn't do them the justice that race deserved. 

Nanfoodle

Dwarf Pally combo maybe in EQN but I think EQ2 maybe your best bet for now =-) F2P as well, so you will know if you want to invest into the game. 

Wizardry

Yep i agree,the way gaming has gone our characters have ZERO identity,just a mash of all different ideas patched into one.

I am not fooled by any of it,this is not a trend for gaming,this is a trend for EASIER game development,CHEAPER cost for developers.

There is NOBODY out there right now who could replicate the 22 classes of FFXI with all the abilities of each...NOBODY.Instead they will just give you everything lumped into one and tell you to  pick because it looks like a lot of choice but really it isn't.

Now i see all kinds of stupid nonsense and most of it you can't even use because 2 second timers means your spamming the same three buttons over and over.

I have a desire when i enter a game as well,i like to pick bulky characters but not for looks i want the stats to relate to what my player looks like.I also have a desire to play a role,not always the same role but i like choice.However if i want to be a Tank then i want that option,i don't want ONE option and that is grab 5 people and zerg your way through a dungeon.

I have not seen one developer in a long time that should be congratulated on their game design effort,i have seen sub par over and over.Many wanted FREE to play,well you got FREE to play games with it.

Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Wizardry

Yep i agree,the way gaming has gone our characters have ZERO identity,just a mash of all different ideas patched into one.

I am not fooled by any of it,this is not a trend for gaming,this is a trend for EASIER game development,CHEAPER cost for developers.

There is NOBODY out there right now who could replicate the 22 classes of FFXI with all the abilities of each...NOBODY.Instead they will just give you everything lumped into one and tell you to  pick because it looks like a lot of choice but really it isn't.

Now i see all kinds of stupid nonsense and most of it you can't even use because 2 second timers means your spamming the same three buttons over and over.

I have a desire when i enter a game as well,i like to pick bulky characters but not for looks i want the stats to relate to what my player looks like.I also have a desire to play a role,not always the same role but i like choice.However if i want to be a Tank then i want that option,i don't want ONE option and that is grab 5 people and zerg your way through a dungeon.

I have not seen one developer in a long time that should be congratulated on their game design effort,i have seen sub par over and over.Many wanted FREE to play,well you got FREE to play games with it.

I feel a little sad for you reading your post. Is there really no game you enjoy playing? Do you give new MMOs a chance or are you walking away after a few min or few hours play? Are you forgetting level 1 in EQ started with only 1-2 spelle you spammed over and over killing rats and snakes? Has games not improved any amount in your eyes in the past 17 years? Maybe your looking back with rose colored glasses? 

Dammam

Originally posted by sludgebeard

Originally posted by Flyte27
It seems to me that all races have lost their value.  This comes with taking away emphasis on culture/race and focusing more on aesthetics and fighting IMO.  Once you take away the general stereo types for cultures and races they cease to be interesting anymore.  They become just the same as anyone else.  What makes a dwarf interesting is not their size, but their culture (for instance they are generally smiths, crafters, have a tendency for greed of shiny objects, and often have a foul temper).  If you take that away they lose their identity and most people wouldn't play a dwarf for their appearance alone.

I completely agree, I feel like many MMO devs remove those stereotypes and instead make the races lore - Up to interpretation. As in, they dont go too far into the backstory because like you said, its about the combat and the animations. 

Me for example, I love a stereotypical dwarf, the mead chugging, hammer smithing, crass humored dwarf is the stereotype I grew up on, and I still enjoy seeing that. 

Even in that terrible DnD movie, the Dwarf character was a giant stereotype, but he was the most interesting character by far, because you understood him, he was simple but effective. 

Its so strange to think they dont put effort into developing the lore of these races and just make them fun again, and not have every race be a statement or up to a players interpretation. 

 

It's an interesting challenge. On the one hand, a certain idea of Dwarf culture exists in player's minds from what has already been written in fantasy fiction or experienced in movies and games, and this is what players (some? many?) look for, crave, and expect to find in other fantasy games. On the other hand, the more this is repeated, the more stereotypical (in a shallow way) and cliched it becomes, and so it is best left avoided.

Then you also have the trend of balancing via homogenization and racial differences are now literally skin deep, so there is little need for in-depth lore from a gameplay perspective. If the character's race is not going to define how he behaves, what he can and can't do, and in what way, then giving the race a long winded history that will undoubtedly be rote with cliches becomes unnecessary.

Personally, I don't want a game to give me a dwarf who's grumpy because, you know, he's a dwarf. I also don't want dwarves who suddenly behave like delicate ballerinas because some writer thought crapping on stereotypes automatically elevates a story. Like you, I want a game to give me dwarves rich with history that I experience in game. I want to step into the starting zone as my dwarf and find, through my interactions, not only that dwarves crave treasure and pints of mead, but how this drives their decisions, shapes their world, and why. I don't want a dwarf-skinned sprite, nor do I want stereotypes ripped from the pages of good (and sometimes terrible) fiction. I want a character, my character, brought to life.

We learn about the world and ourselves through interactions and experiences. This should be true in game as well. Conflict drives a story, because it is against that backdrop that the protagonist's growth is observed and understood. External conflict is great for pew pew, but internal conflict is what brings a character to life, and good racial lore is essential for that.

Excuse my long-winded post, but I usually play as elvish wizards, so...

Flyte27

Originally posted by Dammam

Originally posted by sludgebeard

Originally posted by Flyte27
It seems to me that all races have lost their value.  This comes with taking away emphasis on culture/race and focusing more on aesthetics and fighting IMO.  Once you take away the general stereo types for cultures and races they cease to be interesting anymore.  They become just the same as anyone else.  What makes a dwarf interesting is not their size, but their culture (for instance they are generally smiths, crafters, have a tendency for greed of shiny objects, and often have a foul temper).  If you take that away they lose their identity and most people wouldn't play a dwarf for their appearance alone.

I completely agree, I feel like many MMO devs remove those stereotypes and instead make the races lore - Up to interpretation. As in, they dont go too far into the backstory because like you said, its about the combat and the animations. 

Me for example, I love a stereotypical dwarf, the mead chugging, hammer smithing, crass humored dwarf is the stereotype I grew up on, and I still enjoy seeing that. 

Even in that terrible DnD movie, the Dwarf character was a giant stereotype, but he was the most interesting character by far, because you understood him, he was simple but effective. 

Its so strange to think they dont put effort into developing the lore of these races and just make them fun again, and not have every race be a statement or up to a players interpretation. 

 

It's an interesting challenge. On the one hand, a certain idea of Dwarf culture exists in player's minds from what has already been written in fantasy fiction or experienced in movies and games, and this is what players (some? many?) look for, crave, and expect to find in other fantasy games. On the other hand, the more this is repeated, the more stereotypical (in a shallow way) and cliched it becomes, and so it is best left avoided.

Then you also have the trend of balancing via homogenization and racial differences are now literally skin deep, so there is little need for in-depth lore from a gameplay perspective. If the character's race is not going to define how he behaves, what he can and can't do, and in what way, then giving the race a long winded history that will undoubtedly be rote with cliches becomes unnecessary.

Personally, I don't want a game to give me a dwarf who's grumpy because, you know, he's a dwarf. I also don't want dwarves who suddenly behave like delicate ballerinas because some writer thought crapping on stereotypes automatically elevates a story. Like you, I want a game to give me dwarves rich with history that I experience in game. I want to step into the starting zone as my dwarf and find, through my interactions, not only that dwarves crave treasure and pints of mead, but how this drives their decisions, shapes their world, and why. I don't want a dwarf-skinned sprite, nor do I want stereotypes ripped from the pages of good (and sometimes terrible) fiction. I want a character, my character, brought to life.

We learn about the world and ourselves through interactions and experiences. This should be true in game as well. Conflict drives a story, because it is against that backdrop that the protagonist's growth is observed and understood. External conflict is great for pew pew, but internal conflict is what brings a character to life, and good racial lore is essential for that.

Excuse my long-winded post, but I usually play as elvish wizards, so...

I enjoy a lot of the bad clichés.  I guess that is where I differ from a lot of people.  Theoretically roleplaying a certain culture means roleplaying it a certain way.  Just like if you were to role play a Paladin you would have to follow a strict guide line.  I could relate it to watching an old, bad, campy movie, but still enjoying it a lot as it is funny to me in some way.  I see a lot of cliché creatures and stories in the Witcher 3 and it's one of the games where I have enjoyed the story in a long time.  I think it's because a lot of the quests have very cliché stories and it doesn't generally take them too seriously.  A large part of why we don't see clichés or stereotypes in games now is because they offend people for some reason.  People feel someone is being suppressed even though it is just a fantasy race/creature.  I always prefer it when there are exceptions to the rule, but those exceptions are simple rare occurrences that the developer codes into the game.  It makes those characters seem special.  I do kind of get what you are saying though.

BadSpock

This post made me sad about WAR. 

Damn I wish that game would have been everything we hoped it would be.

Archlyte

Homogenization of race/species in games is something that I see as a bad "innovation," because it just zeroes race out into being an appearance. I personally like it when games will allow you to make a combo that is less than optimal as long as it isn't absolutely non-viable.

For instance if Dwarves are heartier but less adept at magic, a Dwarf Paladin may end up being tankier but less healy at endgame. I count that as a great way to give builds a feel and not just let the munchkins win by homogenizing classes/races and then restricting to dev-approved tree molds.

Furthermore, that Dwarf should be able to get things from the Dwarf King that other characters do not get when they talk to him (like maybe a mandatory quest or an internal Dwarf intrigue). Instead, as Wizardry stated it's easier to just have one path, and if anyone complains you simply strike out with the mighty finger of EQUALITY! That will shut up those foolish character building players. 

To OP: no one can suborn your perception and declare that you have been the victim of rose-colored glasses. If you remember it as cool, I can't see how anyone can argue and proclaim that you felt otherwise.

 

KenFisher

My favorite RP from a while back is a Human Priest named Lesser.

 

He was such a slut.  Thought he was a ladies man, god's gift to women.  Good fun with my RP friends.

Mensur

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Wizardry

Yep i agree,the way gaming has gone our characters have ZERO identity,just a mash of all different ideas patched into one.

I am not fooled by any of it,this is not a trend for gaming,this is a trend for EASIER game development,CHEAPER cost for developers.

There is NOBODY out there right now who could replicate the 22 classes of FFXI with all the abilities of each...NOBODY.Instead they will just give you everything lumped into one and tell you to  pick because it looks like a lot of choice but really it isn't.

Now i see all kinds of stupid nonsense and most of it you can't even use because 2 second timers means your spamming the same three buttons over and over.

I have a desire when i enter a game as well,i like to pick bulky characters but not for looks i want the stats to relate to what my player looks like.I also have a desire to play a role,not always the same role but i like choice.However if i want to be a Tank then i want that option,i don't want ONE option and that is grab 5 people and zerg your way through a dungeon.

I have not seen one developer in a long time that should be congratulated on their game design effort,i have seen sub par over and over.Many wanted FREE to play,well you got FREE to play games with it.

I feel a little sad for you reading your post. Is there really no game you enjoy playing? Do you give new MMOs a chance or are you walking away after a few min or few hours play? Are you forgetting level 1 in EQ started with only 1-2 spelle you spammed over and over killing rats and snakes? Has games not improved any amount in your eyes in the past 17 years? Maybe your looking back with rose colored glasses? 

No other games in the MMO space have been able to give him the pleasure of playing a dward pally! I know how he feels because i feel the same way to0.

Saur0n

Neverwinter

Theocritus

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Dwarf Pally combo maybe in EQN but I think EQ2 maybe your best bet for now =-) F2P as well, so you will know if you want to invest into the game. 

 

Last couple of times that I tried EQ2 it was an absolute wasteland.....That game was as dead as dead gets...i know what the OP is saying though...it is very hard to find a good recent fantasy game that has the classic EQ/Tolkien type races....I imagine at some point these classes and races will be back but its hard to say when....I have little hope for EQN also.

Grimula

No other game has ever done Gnomes better then the Everquest franchise   

 

my Main goal in Everquest 1 was to become a tiny little Gnome warrior who could tank huge dragons 

ended up Becoming the top warrior on ECI server  first to kill Quarm   as a little tiny gnome, it was a Great feat hahah

 

in Everquest 2 I play a Gnome bruiser Main tank 

 

Really love all the Races from Everquest 1  had a very good Variety 

Erudites were a very cool race also, Island People with dark skin and Huge Brains   Really good spellcasters 

 

ArtificeVenatus

Originally posted by Saur0n
Neverwinter

PWE - ARC