This is the only game I'm currently backing. Jacob's is very solid and has a proven track record so I'm not worried. I really like the concept of this game and the direction it's going. I say take your time and make it right. The fact you will refund anybody who asks speaks volumes.
Cheers...
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Well from what I have seen, CU has a game that is light years closer to finishing than anything Chris Roberts has produced.
If you were going to crowd fund something, there is a much better chance this will reach release close to what they proposed.
Thanks for that Oz. I'm really hoping the Chris delivers the goods with Star Citizen. We, the entire crowd-funded dev crowd really needs SC to succeed. I'm really hoping it does.
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Tamanous
I've posted that I expected a delay but damn, not getting that programmer in time sure hurt things.
Must have beta before the Canadian winter is over! RvR warms the blood!
We will do our best! Can't have our cousins to the north bereft of RvR during those long cold winters (except for folks in BC, they have it easy) can we?
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
It will defintely drop during Beta. When is undecided. We will, no matter what, be streaming more though during that time.
I know it's hard to coordinate with business hours etc but it would be really GREAT if you could do some streaming during the evening hours in the US!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by dwarfus The mere fact that Mark comes on here and replies is amazing. I've started and run multiple companies and as a CEO/founder, your time is short beyond imagination.
He engages the community, stands by his word, and the game is looking great. I don't mind waiting for the best, rather than receiving something less.
I used to follow the half recruiting rule: info session or source 64 people, receive 32 applicants, phone screen 16, interview 8, offer 4, hire 2, keep 1 after a year. It helped a lot to stem inevitable turnover.
First, thanks for the kind words, they are appreciated. Secondly, I wish we had that volume of applicants, that would make my life so much easier. It's really been incredibly difficult, much more so than I expected. The timing of the KS was great for most things but I wish it could have happened a few years earlier before the explosion of mobile studios, A ton of talent when in that direction. Combine that with the huge black hole of engineering talent that companies like Google and Amazon have created, has just exacerbated the problem. We'll get through this but it is just taking longer than we expected.
Thanks again!
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Awesome to see you on here. I am a CU backer and have no problem waiting for you and the gang to get things right before letting people in Beta. I have the utmost confidence you guys are doing a great job.
Also, I wanted to know if you got the bottle of viking mead I sent to your office. I applied for a job there several months back and thought I could bribe you with the some good old fashioned mead. Unfortunately it didnt seem to work out but I would love to know if you actually got the mead and had a chance to try it.
Keep up the great work!
First, thanks for the support of our game. Secondly, as to the mead, hmm, I need to check on that because I'm blanking on it right now. Now, it could be that I'm just blanking because, well, it's been a long few weeks but I'll check on Monday. Third, thanks for the interest in working with us, that too is appreciated. These are the moments that I wish we had more money, not to expand the scope or anything like that but simply because we could hire more people. It would make things so much easier but hey, AUSI -> Mythic -> CSE has never been easy so why should that change now.
Thanks, as always.
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by JamesGoblin
After watching yesterday`s Q&A, there is actually bunch of good news in it! Mark made it look bit darker to avoid being accused of sugarcoating the delay, I guess.
To be more precise, from that Q&A (starting around 11:50): a new character artist is starting on Monday, a new environmental artist started today, and third (unspecified) one is "probably coming here in a couple of weeks, and we`re gonna make decision whether to add him". Also, this week "we signed a senior server engineer" (starts working in September).
Yep, there was lots of good news delivered along with the bad. I could have spun things differently, it's not like I don't know how to do that, but I'd rather do things the right way even if it costs us some money, which, as expected, it already has. OTOH, it's worth it.
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Torcip A lot of these kickstarted MMOs seemed to be surrounded by both devs and donators who do not really understand how long it actually takes to develop an mmo that woeks atleast halway decently. But we're missing what's truly important, what does Derek Smart think about this?
LOL. I'm sure that Derek would like my refund policy (not being snarky) because we have been consistent with it since the before the Kickstarter opened. And since I'm not hiring any family members, haven't paid myself since the KS began, not coming up with a constant stream of virutal goods, etc. he'd have fewer concerns.
As gamers, developers and backers of crowdfunded games we all should be rooting for SC to deliver on the game that its backers are hoping for. I say this not because Chris and I are friends (I think I've met him once) but simply because the more crowdfunded success stories we have the better it is for all of us. And if we could get some additional regulation (not too much, just enough to keep everybody honest), crowdfunding could take a permanent place in the developmental landscape.
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Gyrus
Nice to see Mark Jacobs on here talking about his game.
FWIW though, I think CU will find itself in trouble if the whole Star Citizen thing implodes / explodes. Simply because it will change the rules for crowdfunding and many projects (including CU) will get scrutinised.
As for CSE and their handling of crowd funding:
The good was the "refund on request"
The bad was the "Founders Points" which (IMHO) turned the whole thing from a KickStarter campaign into an online shop. That is something that I think could easily end up haunting both CSE and KickStarter in the future.
Why do you think so? We've been clear FPs will go away (meaning we won't sell them anymore) once the game goes LIVE. We've also been clear that we aren't going to come up with Builder's Points (even though I've gotten and continue to get requests for that) or anything like that? We've also not added any new category of goods to the list so I"m not totally clear on why you think it online shop at this point?
I'm really curious about your thinking on this.
Thanks!
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by ceratop001
This is the only game I'm currently backing. Jacob's is very solid and has a proven track record so I'm not worried. I really like the concept of this game and the direction it's going. I say take your time and make it right. The fact you will refund anybody who asks speaks volumes.
Cheers...
Thanks! The refund policy is something I've felt passionately about since the whole concept of crowdfunding began. I'm every bit as much of a gamer as I am a developer so since I wanted to be treated this way by companies, I want to treat our Backers the same way. We all deserve it.
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
It will defintely drop during Beta. When is undecided. We will, no matter what, be streaming more though during that time.
I know it's hard to coordinate with business hours etc but it would be really GREAT if you could do some streaming during the evening hours in the US!
We will. One of the reasons that we've been streaming at the hours that we do isn't just because it is convenient for us but also because European players/Backers of games such as ours have traditionally gotten the short end of the sitck due to time zone issues. So, I've tried to make up for it by picking times, especially 3PM since the European players are home, our east coast folks' day is winding down and the west coast folks are at lunch.
Once we get into Beta we will change our schedule a bit in terms of live streaming stuff to balance it out.
Keep up the great work, always sad to hear about a delay but I'm still proud to have backed this project. Back to playing subpar RvR systems for a bit longer, viva la Albion!
Haxus Council Member 21 year MMO veteran PvP Raid Leader Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Nice to see Mark Jacobs on here talking about his game.
FWIW though, I think CU will find itself in trouble if the whole Star Citizen thing implodes / explodes. Simply because it will change the rules for crowdfunding and many projects (including CU) will get scrutinised.
As for CSE and their handling of crowd funding:
The good was the "refund on request"
The bad was the "Founders Points" which (IMHO) turned the whole thing from a KickStarter campaign into an online shop. That is something that I think could easily end up haunting both CSE and KickStarter in the future.
Why do you think so? We've been clear FPs will go away (meaning we won't sell them anymore) once the game goes LIVE. We've also been clear that we aren't going to come up with Builder's Points (even though I've gotten and continue to get requests for that) or anything like that? We've also not added any new category of goods to the list so I"m not totally clear on why you think it online shop at this point?
I'm really curious about your thinking on this.
Thanks!
Because "Founders Points" could very easily be classed as a Virtual Currency.
Had you simply sold pledges with different options - I'm not sure it would have been a problem.
But you also sold Founders Points (as a stand alone item) and then allowed shoppers to browse a list of items (Virtual Goods) and Pay with Founder's Points.
I'm not a US Lawyer, but I do know that a number of countries are looking very hard at virtual currencies in terms of tax and how it applies to consumer, e-commerce and retail transactions
FYI a 30 sec google turns up this related to the US (Note these are US government sites):
A search for "virtual currency legal issues" is interesting to say the least.
So, what you did via Kickstarter was sell a Virtual Currency.
And then, again via KickStarter, you sold goods in exchange for that virtual currency....
That's a shop.
It makes KickStarter an e-commerce retailer.
Now, interestingly, that might mean that KickStarter is liable for the goods you (CSE) sold because the transaction was conducted on their site..... and if you don't or cannot deliver then they (KickStarter) may have to refund the money?
In this case - I also wonder if the new FTC rule applies?:
particularly the bit about "What You Must Do If You Learn You Cannot Ship on Time"
It's a very interesting point at the moment considering the fact that Star Citizen will certainly ship late - and there is a possibility it will not ship at all?
I don't know the answers - you would need a US legal team for that -but I certainly hope both you (CSE) and KickStarter have consulted with one? It will probably have to be tested in a US Court too - but the way things are going I would expect that to happen very soon.
I find this interesting from the point of view of someone who is very interested in consumer rights WRT computer games.
Imo, this has been the best Kickstarter related campaign. MJ and his team have stuck to the vision and development of this game and have never sugar coated anything to us. I have nothing but gratitude for their integrity and honesty throughout the development so far. Certainly a cut above any of the rest out there to me.
That big post is interesting. What you are basically saying is that if Star Citizen gets held accountable in some way and it ends up in the courts it could be held against all projects that had a part in Kickstarter funding?
....
I kept trying to find something in that FTC document that defined "carrier" because they keep talking of the "merchandise" .... which you could argue means a physical product. A software company doesn't need a carrier as an example when they have product delivered without a physical package.....
"
I think they could hold you accountable for physical rewards from reading that document but those not needing carrier delivery would be iffy - their language doesn't identify them as falling under "shipping" the way a lawyer would read it.
Exactly. Which is why US lawyers and a US court case could be needed to resolve all this.
For those who don't know how this works:
A court case is needed so that a Judge can consider what the law and definitions actually mean and then they make a ruling based on that interpretation. From then on it gets a lot clearer exactly what counts as "merchandise" and "carrier".
And it's impossible to guess how this will go. Anyone who knows anything about law can tell you that two cases which appear almost exactly the same can give totally different results.
Are "Virtual Goods" merchandise? Some courts/Judges might say "Of course they are! They can be brought and sold!" while another might say "Virtual Goods are not real - so of course not."
I doubt it, the funds used for that are already taxed. Almost all money received is taxed as profits after the first year that kickstarted ends. I think virtual currency is more meant as funds in lieu of the US dollar, not items purchased with the US dollar. Also, I think it needs to have a specific USD value to it and also be exchangeable. Otherwise, those laws really don't mean much. If it is exchangeable, then it becomes an issue for the person who exchanges it and the not the company because they were already taxed on the money they received. At least that's my understanding the laws surrounding it. I think the ship dates account for anything because it's funding and not pre-ordering. I think the only issues arise when you have a publicly owned company, then the SEC has to get involved, and stocks are sold ,etc. I think that's where it'd get really messy.
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
The first part is the KickStarter Pledges - those are 'funding donations' - no problem there.
The second part however is different:
"Add-Ons" See the Founder's Points Packs? That is a Virtual Currency IMHO.
Then there is "The Founder's Exchange" offering Founders Items such as skin tones, tattoos, beards and banners. Tthe "Crafter Section" which offers things like the "Sparks Flying" animation. All of this is cosmetic - but it's not a pledge - it's a purchase of a virtual item. So, it's a store.
Unlike a pledge which is to support the development of a game (which may or may not happen based on a concept or idea) the purchase of a virtual item is different since you are spending money on a specific item. There is a whole new level of specific detail implied.
Items offered for Founders Points are in fact "pre-ordering" IMHO.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Alomar
Keep up the great work, always sad to hear about a delay but I'm still proud to have backed this project. Back to playing subpar RvR systems for a bit longer, viva la Albion!
Thanks. I know you'll live the RvR in our game. The A.I.R. system, in and of itself, makes RvR more challenging than what is found in most MMOs. The ability interaction system is really a game-changer, not because of hype, but because the fact that all abilities, projectiles, etc. can interact with each other, changes the RvR landscape dramatically. Now, will it be too complicated or fun? Time will tell but the fact that can't be denied is that it definitely complicates things a lot and rewards coordinated attacks by people/groups.
BTW, Blue Oyster Cult is perfect background music for posting here about RvR on a Sunday morning. Just saying.
Keep up the great work, always sad to hear about a delay but I'm still proud to have backed this project. Back to playing subpar RvR systems for a bit longer, viva la Albion!
Thanks. I know you'll live the RvR in our game. The A.I.R. system, in and of itself, makes RvR more challenging than what is found in most MMOs. The ability interaction system is really a game-changer, not because of hype, but because the fact that all abilities, projectiles, etc. can interact with each other, changes the RvR landscape dramatically. Now, will it be too complicated or fun? Time will tell but the fact that can't be denied is that it definitely complicates things a lot and rewards coordinated attacks by people/groups.
BTW, Blue Oyster Cult is perfect background music for posting here about RvR on a Sunday morning. Just saying.
Mmm im definitley in a wait and see mode with CU... We heard all this hype with Warhammer from you then saw so much promise flushed...
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Gyrus
Nice to see Mark Jacobs on here talking about his game.
FWIW though, I think CU will find itself in trouble if the whole Star Citizen thing implodes / explodes. Simply because it will change the rules for crowdfunding and many projects (including CU) will get scrutinised.
As for CSE and their handling of crowd funding:
The good was the "refund on request"
The bad was the "Founders Points" which (IMHO) turned the whole thing from a KickStarter campaign into an online shop. That is something that I think could easily end up haunting both CSE and KickStarter in the future.
Why do you think so? We've been clear FPs will go away (meaning we won't sell them anymore) once the game goes LIVE. We've also been clear that we aren't going to come up with Builder's Points (even though I've gotten and continue to get requests for that) or anything like that? We've also not added any new category of goods to the list so I"m not totally clear on why you think it online shop at this point?
I'm really curious about your thinking on this.
Thanks!
Because "Founders Points" could very easily be classed as a Virtual Currency.
Had you simply sold pledges with different options - I'm not sure it would have been a problem.
But you also sold Founders Points (as a stand alone item) and then allowed shoppers to browse a list of items (Virtual Goods) and Pay with Founder's Points.
I'm not a US Lawyer, but I do know that a number of countries are looking very hard at virtual currencies in terms of tax and how it applies to consumer, e-commerce and retail transactions
FYI a 30 sec google turns up this related to the US (Note these are US government sites):
A search for "virtual currency legal issues" is interesting to say the least.
So, what you did via Kickstarter was sell a Virtual Currency.
And then, again via KickStarter, you sold goods in exchange for that virtual currency....
That's a shop.
It makes KickStarter an e-commerce retailer.
Now, interestingly, that might mean that KickStarter is liable for the goods you (CSE) sold because the transaction was conducted on their site..... and if you don't or cannot deliver then they (KickStarter) may have to refund the money?
In this case - I also wonder if the new FTC rule applies?:
particularly the bit about "What You Must Do If You Learn You Cannot Ship on Time"
It's a very interesting point at the moment considering the fact that Star Citizen will certainly ship late - and there is a possibility it will not ship at all?
I don't know the answers - you would need a US legal team for that -but I certainly hope both you (CSE) and KickStarter have consulted with one? It will probably have to be tested in a US Court too - but the way things are going I would expect that to happen very soon.
I find this interesting from the point of view of someone who is very interested in consumer rights WRT computer games.
As far as consulting with a lawyer, of course.
In terms of whether Kickstarter could be liable for us or other KS games, I doubt it highly. That sort of ruling would end up destroying companies such as Amazon and the entire e-commerce business. In terms of consumer rights, since we currently give refunds upon asking, I think we're being pretty protective of consumer rights. The other thing that you already know is that all the dates on KS or afterward are estimated dates so something like a KS's project delay isn't going to trigger any significant FTC/ action unless for some reason the FTC thinks something shady is going on. Delays happen in our field as well as many others so even the possibility of judicial scrutiny is unlikely.
And in terms of our creating a virtual currency, no, we didn't, at least not in terms of the IRS. The IRS's guildelines were aimed squarely at Bitcoin and to close a potential loophole with people who were receiving virtual currency and not reporting it. We're not paying people with a virtual currency for services/goods rendered. Nor our FPs exchangeable elsewhere, etc.
And in terms of the FTC, well, we already notified people, and will do so again, and we continue to reiterate our refund policy so even if it did apply (the guidelines say "most goods" and I don't think the FTC has been clear on how this would apply to projects such as ours), we are in good shape. Now, other projects, who knows? However, one of the key things that the FTC will keep in mind is the fact that all KS projects come with a risk. This risk is made very clear to the consumer before they back a project. This isn't a "get out of jail free" card for sleazy devs but the FTC/courts will, most likely, not be as keen to lower the hammer on a company that did its best to deliver the product but it just didn't work out as hoped. Again, it's not a free pass but if the consumer backs a project knowing that there is a chance that the project will fail and then it fails (and there wasn't fraud, misuse of funds, etc.) it is less likely to trigger action by the government or the courts.
And I think the point you emphasize, the "knowing it will not ship" is a key one if the FTC decides that a crowdfunded game falls under the category of "most goods" for those guidelines to apply.
In terms of it being tested in the courts, yep, it probably will be. Fortunately, for developers like myself who keep the refund option open, it won't be a problem.
Thanks for taking the time to research, post, etc.
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
*rifles through pockets* Ok, I'm willing to offer, let's see, twenty quid, half a pack of orange flavored Tic Tics, an American Susan B Anthony dollar coin I've carried around for years for luck, and a palm full of pocket lint, to hire a forensic odontologist to investigate this obvious boondoggle!
Mr. Jacobs I've seen some hornswogglers in my day but you sir take the cake. Calmly and politely explaining the reasons for the delay to us like we're real human beings ... how dare you sir!
Posters seem to not grasp that Mark Jacobs has a law degree from Georgetown. You can bet he is familiar with all the legal issues that concern games.
I am looking forward to giving this game a try. I personally miss the fun rvr in DAoC.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Alomar
Keep up the great work, always sad to hear about a delay but I'm still proud to have backed this project. Back to playing subpar RvR systems for a bit longer, viva la Albion!
Thanks. I know you'll live the RvR in our game. The A.I.R. system, in and of itself, makes RvR more challenging than what is found in most MMOs. The ability interaction system is really a game-changer, not because of hype, but because the fact that all abilities, projectiles, etc. can interact with each other, changes the RvR landscape dramatically. Now, will it be too complicated or fun? Time will tell but the fact that can't be denied is that it definitely complicates things a lot and rewards coordinated attacks by people/groups.
BTW, Blue Oyster Cult is perfect background music for posting here about RvR on a Sunday morning. Just saying.
Mmm im definitley in a wait and see mode with CU... We heard all this hype with Warhammer from you then saw so much promise flushed...
That's perfectly fine with me. As I've said here and on MOP, I tell people to take their time and look at what we are doing before backing the game. That's one of the reasons I haven't gone down the "Summer sale!" route for our crowdfunded game.
And in terms of hype, no offense intended but do you really think that my posting on a forum on a Sunday morning that our A.I.R. system is going to be different from other systems is hype on the level of WAR or other games? I mean, it's a fact, it is different and its already in the game and working great, unlike, well, beards that grow as the character ages.
Anyway, thanks for keeping an eye on our project, that's all I/we can ask and that's all we do. Enjoy your Sunday! I'm outta here to take Janet out for brunch to her favorite restaurant. Wish it wasn't so hot though, we wanted to sit outside but it'll be 90+ by the time we reach it.
Comments
This is the only game I'm currently backing. Jacob's is very solid and has a proven track record so I'm not worried. I really like the concept of this game and the direction it's going. I say take your time and make it right. The fact you will refund anybody who asks speaks volumes.
Cheers...
Thanks for that Oz. I'm really hoping the Chris delivers the goods with Star Citizen. We, the entire crowd-funded dev crowd really needs SC to succeed. I'm really hoping it does.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
We will do our best! Can't have our cousins to the north bereft of RvR during those long cold winters (except for folks in BC, they have it easy) can we?
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
It will defintely drop during Beta. When is undecided. We will, no matter what, be streaming more though during that time.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I know it's hard to coordinate with business hours etc but it would be really GREAT if you could do some streaming during the evening hours in the US!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
First, thanks for the kind words, they are appreciated. Secondly, I wish we had that volume of applicants, that would make my life so much easier. It's really been incredibly difficult, much more so than I expected. The timing of the KS was great for most things but I wish it could have happened a few years earlier before the explosion of mobile studios, A ton of talent when in that direction. Combine that with the huge black hole of engineering talent that companies like Google and Amazon have created, has just exacerbated the problem. We'll get through this but it is just taking longer than we expected.
Thanks again!
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
First, thanks for the support of our game. Secondly, as to the mead, hmm, I need to check on that because I'm blanking on it right now. Now, it could be that I'm just blanking because, well, it's been a long few weeks but I'll check on Monday. Third, thanks for the interest in working with us, that too is appreciated. These are the moments that I wish we had more money, not to expand the scope or anything like that but simply because we could hire more people. It would make things so much easier but hey, AUSI -> Mythic -> CSE has never been easy so why should that change now.
Thanks, as always.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Yep, there was lots of good news delivered along with the bad. I could have spun things differently, it's not like I don't know how to do that, but I'd rather do things the right way even if it costs us some money, which, as expected, it already has. OTOH, it's worth it.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
LOL. I'm sure that Derek would like my refund policy (not being snarky) because we have been consistent with it since the before the Kickstarter opened. And since I'm not hiring any family members, haven't paid myself since the KS began, not coming up with a constant stream of virutal goods, etc. he'd have fewer concerns.
As gamers, developers and backers of crowdfunded games we all should be rooting for SC to deliver on the game that its backers are hoping for. I say this not because Chris and I are friends (I think I've met him once) but simply because the more crowdfunded success stories we have the better it is for all of us. And if we could get some additional regulation (not too much, just enough to keep everybody honest), crowdfunding could take a permanent place in the developmental landscape.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Why do you think so? We've been clear FPs will go away (meaning we won't sell them anymore) once the game goes LIVE. We've also been clear that we aren't going to come up with Builder's Points (even though I've gotten and continue to get requests for that) or anything like that? We've also not added any new category of goods to the list so I"m not totally clear on why you think it online shop at this point?
I'm really curious about your thinking on this.
Thanks!
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Thanks! The refund policy is something I've felt passionately about since the whole concept of crowdfunding began. I'm every bit as much of a gamer as I am a developer so since I wanted to be treated this way by companies, I want to treat our Backers the same way. We all deserve it.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
We will. One of the reasons that we've been streaming at the hours that we do isn't just because it is convenient for us but also because European players/Backers of games such as ours have traditionally gotten the short end of the sitck due to time zone issues. So, I've tried to make up for it by picking times, especially 3PM since the European players are home, our east coast folks' day is winding down and the west coast folks are at lunch.
Once we get into Beta we will change our schedule a bit in terms of live streaming stuff to balance it out.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Keep up the great work, always sad to hear about a delay but I'm still proud to have backed this project. Back to playing subpar RvR systems for a bit longer, viva la Albion!
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Because "Founders Points" could very easily be classed as a Virtual Currency.
Why? Because on Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/description) you not only sell Founders Points directly (as Add-Ons in $10, $25, $50, $100, $150 and $300 'packs') but you also then have "The Founders Exchange" (Redeem your Founder's points HERE!!!")
Had you simply sold pledges with different options - I'm not sure it would have been a problem.
But you also sold Founders Points (as a stand alone item) and then allowed shoppers to browse a list of items (Virtual Goods) and Pay with Founder's Points.
I'm not a US Lawyer, but I do know that a number of countries are looking very hard at virtual currencies in terms of tax and how it applies to consumer, e-commerce and retail transactions
FYI a 30 sec google turns up this related to the US (Note these are US government sites):
http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/advisory/pdf/advis33.pdf
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/IRS-Virtual-Currency-Guidance
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf
A search for "virtual currency legal issues" is interesting to say the least.
So, what you did via Kickstarter was sell a Virtual Currency.
And then, again via KickStarter, you sold goods in exchange for that virtual currency....
That's a shop.
It makes KickStarter an e-commerce retailer.
Now, interestingly, that might mean that KickStarter is liable for the goods you (CSE) sold because the transaction was conducted on their site..... and if you don't or cannot deliver then they (KickStarter) may have to refund the money?
In this case - I also wonder if the new FTC rule applies?:
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/business-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order
particularly the bit about "What You Must Do If You Learn You Cannot Ship on Time"
It's a very interesting point at the moment considering the fact that Star Citizen will certainly ship late - and there is a possibility it will not ship at all?
I don't know the answers - you would need a US legal team for that -but I certainly hope both you (CSE) and KickStarter have consulted with one? It will probably have to be tested in a US Court too - but the way things are going I would expect that to happen very soon.
I find this interesting from the point of view of someone who is very interested in consumer rights WRT computer games.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Exactly. Which is why US lawyers and a US court case could be needed to resolve all this.
For those who don't know how this works:
A court case is needed so that a Judge can consider what the law and definitions actually mean and then they make a ruling based on that interpretation. From then on it gets a lot clearer exactly what counts as "merchandise" and "carrier".
And it's impossible to guess how this will go. Anyone who knows anything about law can tell you that two cases which appear almost exactly the same can give totally different results.
Are "Virtual Goods" merchandise? Some courts/Judges might say "Of course they are! They can be brought and sold!" while another might say "Virtual Goods are not real - so of course not."
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I doubt it, the funds used for that are already taxed. Almost all money received is taxed as profits after the first year that kickstarted ends. I think virtual currency is more meant as funds in lieu of the US dollar, not items purchased with the US dollar. Also, I think it needs to have a specific USD value to it and also be exchangeable. Otherwise, those laws really don't mean much. If it is exchangeable, then it becomes an issue for the person who exchanges it and the not the company because they were already taxed on the money they received. At least that's my understanding the laws surrounding it. I think the ship dates account for anything because it's funding and not pre-ordering. I think the only issues arise when you have a publicly owned company, then the SEC has to get involved, and stocks are sold ,etc. I think that's where it'd get really messy.
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
No.
Have a look here again: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/description
There are two parts:
The first part is the KickStarter Pledges - those are 'funding donations' - no problem there.
The second part however is different:
"Add-Ons" See the Founder's Points Packs? That is a Virtual Currency IMHO.
Then there is "The Founder's Exchange" offering Founders Items such as skin tones, tattoos, beards and banners. Tthe "Crafter Section" which offers things like the "Sparks Flying" animation. All of this is cosmetic - but it's not a pledge - it's a purchase of a virtual item. So, it's a store.
Unlike a pledge which is to support the development of a game (which may or may not happen based on a concept or idea) the purchase of a virtual item is different since you are spending money on a specific item. There is a whole new level of specific detail implied.
Items offered for Founders Points are in fact "pre-ordering" IMHO.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Thanks. I know you'll live the RvR in our game. The A.I.R. system, in and of itself, makes RvR more challenging than what is found in most MMOs. The ability interaction system is really a game-changer, not because of hype, but because the fact that all abilities, projectiles, etc. can interact with each other, changes the RvR landscape dramatically. Now, will it be too complicated or fun? Time will tell but the fact that can't be denied is that it definitely complicates things a lot and rewards coordinated attacks by people/groups.
BTW, Blue Oyster Cult is perfect background music for posting here about RvR on a Sunday morning. Just saying.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Mmm im definitley in a wait and see mode with CU... We heard all this hype with Warhammer from you then saw so much promise flushed...
As far as consulting with a lawyer, of course.
In terms of whether Kickstarter could be liable for us or other KS games, I doubt it highly. That sort of ruling would end up destroying companies such as Amazon and the entire e-commerce business. In terms of consumer rights, since we currently give refunds upon asking, I think we're being pretty protective of consumer rights. The other thing that you already know is that all the dates on KS or afterward are estimated dates so something like a KS's project delay isn't going to trigger any significant FTC/ action unless for some reason the FTC thinks something shady is going on. Delays happen in our field as well as many others so even the possibility of judicial scrutiny is unlikely.
And in terms of our creating a virtual currency, no, we didn't, at least not in terms of the IRS. The IRS's guildelines were aimed squarely at Bitcoin and to close a potential loophole with people who were receiving virtual currency and not reporting it. We're not paying people with a virtual currency for services/goods rendered. Nor our FPs exchangeable elsewhere, etc.
And in terms of the FTC, well, we already notified people, and will do so again, and we continue to reiterate our refund policy so even if it did apply (the guidelines say "most goods" and I don't think the FTC has been clear on how this would apply to projects such as ours), we are in good shape. Now, other projects, who knows? However, one of the key things that the FTC will keep in mind is the fact that all KS projects come with a risk. This risk is made very clear to the consumer before they back a project. This isn't a "get out of jail free" card for sleazy devs but the FTC/courts will, most likely, not be as keen to lower the hammer on a company that did its best to deliver the product but it just didn't work out as hoped. Again, it's not a free pass but if the consumer backs a project knowing that there is a chance that the project will fail and then it fails (and there wasn't fraud, misuse of funds, etc.) it is less likely to trigger action by the government or the courts.
And I think the point you emphasize, the "knowing it will not ship" is a key one if the FTC decides that a crowdfunded game falls under the category of "most goods" for those guidelines to apply.
In terms of it being tested in the courts, yep, it probably will be. Fortunately, for developers like myself who keep the refund option open, it won't be a problem.
Thanks for taking the time to research, post, etc.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
LOL, thanks!
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Posters seem to not grasp that Mark Jacobs has a law degree from Georgetown. You can bet he is familiar with all the legal issues that concern games.
I am looking forward to giving this game a try. I personally miss the fun rvr in DAoC.
That's perfectly fine with me. As I've said here and on MOP, I tell people to take their time and look at what we are doing before backing the game. That's one of the reasons I haven't gone down the "Summer sale!" route for our crowdfunded game.
And in terms of hype, no offense intended but do you really think that my posting on a forum on a Sunday morning that our A.I.R. system is going to be different from other systems is hype on the level of WAR or other games? I mean, it's a fact, it is different and its already in the game and working great, unlike, well, beards that grow as the character ages.
Anyway, thanks for keeping an eye on our project, that's all I/we can ask and that's all we do. Enjoy your Sunday! I'm outta here to take Janet out for brunch to her favorite restaurant. Wish it wasn't so hot though, we wanted to sit outside but it'll be 90+ by the time we reach it.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment