ASCEND this game make u see ur previous living characters as part of crusade invading other players worlds ... but u don't die u Ascend and u evolv and progress ...
I would't play PD MMO something must be left after ur char die. Maybe ala champions points in ESO some progression must be kept after ur char die
Permadeath? no thanks... progress / uber gear / epeen does not mean anything to you? its main thing why peoples playing MMOs these days...
But all that is just time based, I can see allot of negative thought about it and people already losing their minds over the subject but it is there and it is in my opinion it's better then the Milking the cow mindless grinding stuff you see these days.
For this to work what would it take ? A new MMO that forces RPG and maybe even has no PVP at all. or something else? Lets continue ^^
Wizardry Online tried it and failed.
I believe there are games in the pipe that have permadeath options (Shards Online being one?), but there are issues with it at both levels (PvP and PvE). In PvP you either end up with entire servers of lowbies (because nobody can progress) or you get gankfests. One idea I've always had to handle ganking is to debuff the ganker. So basically debuff their stats so they are, for instance, equal to the level of the enemy they just killed (where the enemy was -15 levels) for instance. So this might solve ganking but then see point 1.
For PvE, it becomes a matter of content difficulty versus survivability. PvE is about progression. Raids are difficult (or can be) and when you introduce permadeath then, all of a sudden, you remove all fun from the game. On top of that, classes like tanks and healers basically become horribly abused because "They killed everyone". Maybe they could sell resurrection scrolls in the shop
Originally posted by danwest58 If you want Permadeath everytime you die delete your character and start over.
no.
Every time someone posts this I have to remind them that the whole idea of having any rule set is so that everyone has a shared experience and the same shared experience.
Also it's perfectly ok to have perma death games just like it's perfectly ok to have ffa pvp games or just pve games.
It doesn't take anything away to have these games. Just don't play on them. People think that their existence is so threatening and it's beyond me as to why.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by danwest58 If you want Permadeath everytime you die delete your character and start over.
no.
Every time someone posts this I have to remind them that the whole idea of having any rule set is so that everyone has a shared experience and the same shared experience.
Also it's perfectly ok to have perma death games just like it's perfectly ok to have ffa pvp games or just pve games.
It doesn't take anything away to have these games. Just don't play on them. People think that their existence is so threatening and it's beyond me as to why.
Yea you can have them in your low pop games that struggle to survive or shut down like wizardry online. O hey look at that a game that had PD shut down. Yep thats right the game shut down. Let's look at another MMO that had PD SWG, people quit the game because their Jedi died, now it didn't shut down solely because of Jedi were PD however it played a large role in it.
Sorry no. This topic needs to stop popping up on the forums selling people on it. Sorry it just will not work in an MMO. I would do it in D3, or RPG games no problem NOT in a MMO where I invest thousands of hours in.
Originally posted by danwest58 It was tried in SWG and failed causing people to quit the game.
SWG did NOT have permadeath. It was ingame for like a week and then they converted it to a trained XP loss/death system.
So any loss of players can not be credited to permadeath content.
The reason why the people left the game was because it was still in alpha mode when released -forced release- and because of a sandbox-turned-to-themepark-to-lure-in-WoW-customers-idea, which was rushed in 6 months as a secret side project to fool the customers and very, VERY poorly done with 2 weeks release notice.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Originally posted by danwest58 If you want Permadeath everytime you die delete your character and start over.
no.
Every time someone posts this I have to remind them that the whole idea of having any rule set is so that everyone has a shared experience and the same shared experience.
Also it's perfectly ok to have perma death games just like it's perfectly ok to have ffa pvp games or just pve games.
It doesn't take anything away to have these games. Just don't play on them. People think that their existence is so threatening and it's beyond me as to why.
Yea you can have them in your low pop games that struggle to survive or shut down like wizardry online. O hey look at that a game that had PD shut down. Yep thats right the game shut down. Let's look at another MMO that had PD SWG, people quit the game because their Jedi died, now it didn't shut down solely because of Jedi were PD however it played a large role in it.
Sorry no. This topic needs to stop popping up on the forums selling people on it. Sorry it just will not work in an MMO. I would do it in D3, or RPG games no problem NOT in a MMO where I invest thousands of hours in.
That's the fault of game developers for developing games that need a larger amount of money to survive.
As long as they budget correctly and make sure that the game can start out low population and stay afloat it's a non-issue. Otherwise what you are saying is that the only things that should exist are majority rules and that would pretty much leave a very bland and white washed "world pallet" for anything to exist.
to that end, "you wouldn't be playing an mmo where there would be permadeath therefore you wouldn't lose thousands of hours".
I swear, some of you really believe that you are going to be kidnapped and forced to play these games and are so scared that this will happen that their mere existence is too much.
Additionally, you "don't get it". Permadeath games are not about you investing thousands of hours into one character. why is this so hard? They are about an entirely different experience. You sound like permadeath games are the same as taking a WoW type game and just plopping in permadeath.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by danwest58 If you want Permadeath everytime you die delete your character and start over.
no.
Every time someone posts this I have to remind them that the whole idea of having any rule set is so that everyone has a shared experience and the same shared experience.
Also it's perfectly ok to have perma death games just like it's perfectly ok to have ffa pvp games or just pve games.
It doesn't take anything away to have these games. Just don't play on them. People think that their existence is so threatening and it's beyond me as to why.
Yea you can have them in your low pop games that struggle to survive or shut down like wizardry online. O hey look at that a game that had PD shut down. Yep thats right the game shut down. Let's look at another MMO that had PD SWG, people quit the game because their Jedi died, now it didn't shut down solely because of Jedi were PD however it played a large role in it.
Sorry no. This topic needs to stop popping up on the forums selling people on it. Sorry it just will not work in an MMO. I would do it in D3, or RPG games no problem NOT in a MMO where I invest thousands of hours in.
That's the fault of game developers for developing games that need a larger amount of money to survive.
As long as they budget correctly and make sure that the game can start out low population and stay afloat it's a non-issue. Otherwise what you are saying is that the only things that should exist are majority rules and that would pretty much leave a very bland and white washed "world pallet" for anything to exist.
to that end, and "you wouldn't be playing an mmo where there would be permadeath therefore you wouldn't lose thousands of hours".
I swear, some of you really believe that you are going to be kidnapped and forced to play these games and are so scared that this will happen that the mere existence is too much.
Additionally, you "don't get it". Permadeath games are not about you investing thousands of hours into one character. why is this so hard? They are about an entirely different experience. You sound like permadeath games are the same as taking a WoW type game and just plopping in permadeath.
If I am playing an MMO I am not going to play an MMORPG like I would play an MOBA. An MMORPG best survives when players are invested in their character and want to keep progressing it. If that character is DEAD then guess what I am not going to play that game because my character is dead. I also do not believe in short term progression and starting over, if I do that I would rather play an MOBA because I an not having to RELEARN shit.
If I am playing an MMO I am not going to play an MMORPG like I would play an MOBA. An MMORPG best survives when players are invested in their character and want to keep progressing it. If that character is DEAD then guess what I am not going to play that game because my character is dead. I also do not believe in short term progression and starting over, if I do that I would rather play an MOBA because I an not having to RELEARN shit.
Again, you are bringing in your preconceived notions on what an mmo has to be based upon what you like.
Did you ever consider that for some people, especially for permadeath games, it's not about the investment in one character where the draw resides but the investment in, say, a dynasty? Or a family tree?
Permadeath games are not about one character they are about a chain of characters. Unless you can understand this concept it's going to be difficult for you to see any other point other than "I", "I", "I".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Fly666monkey Putting 100+ hours into a character, and then losing it all because my internet decided to take a dump? Yeah, no thanks.
Obviously it wouldn't be that simple to lose your character for good. It would be much more complicated mechanism, like dying several times in short period of time or having a certain amount of total deaths on your toon.
I'd like to see this kind of feature on PvE servers to spice up the otherwise boring gameplay. On PvP servers this could be a bit harsh, or idk, maybe it would make some things much more interesting
MMOs are often accused for lack of (relevant) content and alt-unfriendlyness. Maybe this could be an answer; you lose your main if you're not playing well enough and have to start a new one.
Originally posted by danwest58 It was tried in SWG and failed causing people to quit the game.
SWG did NOT have permadeath. It was ingame for like a week and then they converted it to a trained XP loss/death system.
So any loss of players can not be credited to permadeath content.
The reason why the people left the game was because it was still in alpha mode when released -forced release- and because of a sandbox-turned-to-themepark-to-lure-in-WoW-customers-idea, which was rushed in 6 months as a secret side project to fool the customers and very, VERY poorly done with 2 weeks release notice.
Muke,
Sorry you are wrong. I had friends in a fairly large guild in SWG which was a part of an alliance that my guild was a part of. They all had Jedi in the first month or so when the Holocrons came out and they all quit after grinding then having a Jedi killed during the Permadeath phase. Now If I remember my publishes correctly Holocrons were out in Pub 4 or 5, Oct to Dec time frame of 2003. In 2004 Pub 6 came out in Feb where they did remove the permadeath. Yes it was in for a short time HOWEVER it did cause a lot of people I played with to quit. I had a person in my guild well 2 both had Jedi that were killed during this time they left and so did a few of their friends.
Some of what you say is true but Permadeath was in the game for a few months. Not long I will give you that. It was in long enough for people to quit. Guess what most of those who quit during that time later shown up in WOW. Imagine that
Originally posted by danwest58 If you want Permadeath everytime you die delete your character and start over.
no.
Every time someone posts this I have to remind them that the whole idea of having any rule set is so that everyone has a shared experience and the same shared experience.
Also it's perfectly ok to have perma death games just like it's perfectly ok to have ffa pvp games or just pve games.
It doesn't take anything away to have these games. Just don't play on them. People think that their existence is so threatening and it's beyond me as to why.
Yea you can have them in your low pop games that struggle to survive or shut down like wizardry online. O hey look at that a game that had PD shut down. Yep thats right the game shut down. Let's look at another MMO that had PD SWG, people quit the game because their Jedi died, now it didn't shut down solely because of Jedi were PD however it played a large role in it.
Sorry no. This topic needs to stop popping up on the forums selling people on it. Sorry it just will not work in an MMO. I would do it in D3, or RPG games no problem NOT in a MMO where I invest thousands of hours in.
That's the fault of game developers for developing games that need a larger amount of money to survive.
As long as they budget correctly ....
I guess you're not familiar with Wizardry Online. In Japan, they spent the money, developed the game, and because of how they game over there, the game did well. It's still running. That budget nonsense has nothing to do with gameplay that the target audience does not want or like. It was licensed by SOE, run over here, AND TANKED. Not because there wasn't enough spent on it or too much spent on it, but because in NA/EU, there really isn't that much of an audience for it.
Salem is adorable. People aren't avoiding the permadeath there because of its crappy graphics. People are avoiding it because in this market you have a view of time investment and character ownership in persistent state worlds that doesn't support it as a feature.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If I am playing an MMO I am not going to play an MMORPG like I would play an MOBA. An MMORPG best survives when players are invested in their character and want to keep progressing it. If that character is DEAD then guess what I am not going to play that game because my character is dead. I also do not believe in short term progression and starting over, if I do that I would rather play an MOBA because I an not having to RELEARN shit.
Again, you are bringing in your preconceived notions on what an mmo has to be based upon what you like.
Did you ever consider that for some people, especially for permadeath games, it's not about the investment in one character where the draw resides but the investment in, say, a dynasty? Or a family tree?
Permadeath games are not about one character they are about a chain of characters. Unless you can understand this concept it's going to be difficult for you to see any other point other than "I", "I", "I".
Realm of the Mad God is a nice example of a modern game that has permadeath and it works for that game.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If I am playing an MMO I am not going to play an MMORPG like I would play an MOBA. An MMORPG best survives when players are invested in their character and want to keep progressing it. If that character is DEAD then guess what I am not going to play that game because my character is dead. I also do not believe in short term progression and starting over, if I do that I would rather play an MOBA because I an not having to RELEARN shit.
Again, you are bringing in your preconceived notions on what an mmo has to be based upon what you like.
Did you ever consider that for some people, especially for permadeath games, it's not about the investment in one character where the draw resides but the investment in, say, a dynasty? Or a family tree?
Permadeath games are not about one character they are about a chain of characters. Unless you can understand this concept it's going to be difficult for you to see any other point other than "I", "I", "I".
Point is I am playing 1 Character. Thats what I want to play and develop. If I need to do another because Helz is dead I will just quit period. I understand that you are saying it's a Chain, what I am saying is you are breaking my progression with the one Character I made. I would have to go make another, now if you made it that the new one is just a chain of the one that dyed I say then what is the point of PD then.
Take this for example. I am the tank for my group of friends in FFXIV. I do play other jobs for low level instance for fun and to level. However I am focused on my tank, I want to be the MT for my group of friends. Now if that Character dies I start over right, level even if its fast I am not going to like that at all. Now if I can create a character that is basically the same as my tank near the same level then what is the point I just lost my character name nothing else. The point is anything that kills my character from being able to be the tank of my group of friends will just make me walk away from the game. There is no middle ground on this. Its a great feature for non MMOs however for MMOs no its really not, even low budget games will not do well with this feature because the entire point of PD is to make death hurt so players learn or do stupid things. Well it does not matter people will die in MMOs its just how they are even in the UO days.
Originally posted by Fly666monkey Putting 100+ hours into a character, and then losing it all because my internet decided to take a dump? Yeah, no thanks.
Obviously it wouldn't be that simple to lose your character for good. It would be much more complicated mechanism, like dying several times in short period of time or having a certain amount of total deaths on your toon.
Exactly.
and I agree this could be a great system if it was implemented with a predominantly pve experience.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by danwest58 It was tried in SWG and failed causing people to quit the game.
SWG did NOT have permadeath. It was ingame for like a week and then they converted it to a trained XP loss/death system.
So any loss of players can not be credited to permadeath content.
The reason why the people left the game was because it was still in alpha mode when released -forced release- and because of a sandbox-turned-to-themepark-to-lure-in-WoW-customers-idea, which was rushed in 6 months as a secret side project to fool the customers and very, VERY poorly done with 2 weeks release notice.
I think they're referring to the 1st jedi system, which was in place until NGE if I recall correctly. The same jedi system that according to Raph himself, brought about the beginning of the end of SWG.
The Dragonrealms MUD that I played back in the 90's had permadeath, but the permanent bit was easily avoidable. Not going into much detail, you basically sacrificed incoming "learning"(XP) to a sphere which you offered to a shrine. Each one would grant you a resurrection. I don't recall ever having more than 3, but the number you could charge up may have been unlimited.
That's about as far as I would accept for PD, and for me to bother with it these days, the rest of the game would have elicit a bliss you could only get from a beejer on a hot-tub rollercoaster while eating cheesecake.
There's definitely a market for MMO's with permadeath, games like Salem are proof of that. However, Salem is also proof of the fact that it's a very, very small market.
There's a huge market for permadeath in non-MMO's, though. Just look at DayZ, Rust, H1Z1, et all. Nobody minds dying if everybody else is also dying in the first 7 days. No great loss there.
Nobody in their right mind will play an MMO with permadeath when a lag spike or a hacker can end your 6-month old character in the blink of an eye, regardless of how carefully you play...
Originally posted by danwest58 If you want Permadeath everytime you die delete your character and start over.
no.
Every time someone posts this I have to remind them that the whole idea of having any rule set is so that everyone has a shared experience and the same shared experience.
Also it's perfectly ok to have perma death games just like it's perfectly ok to have ffa pvp games or just pve games.
It doesn't take anything away to have these games. Just don't play on them. People think that their existence is so threatening and it's beyond me as to why.
Yea you can have them in your low pop games that struggle to survive or shut down like wizardry online. O hey look at that a game that had PD shut down. Yep thats right the game shut down. Let's look at another MMO that had PD SWG, people quit the game because their Jedi died, now it didn't shut down solely because of Jedi were PD however it played a large role in it.
Sorry no. This topic needs to stop popping up on the forums selling people on it. Sorry it just will not work in an MMO. I would do it in D3, or RPG games no problem NOT in a MMO where I invest thousands of hours in.
That's the fault of game developers for developing games that need a larger amount of money to survive.
As long as they budget correctly ....
I guess you're not familiar with Wizardry Online. In Japan, they spent the money, developed the game, and because of how they game over there, the game did well. It's still running. That budget nonsense has nothing to do with gameplay that the target audience does not want or like. It was licensed by SOE, run over here, AND TANKED. Not because there wasn't enough spent on it or too much spent on it, but because in NA/EU, there really isn't that much of an audience for it.
Salem is adorable. People aren't avoiding the permadeath there because of its crappy graphics. People are avoiding it because in this market you have a view of time investment and character ownership in persistent state worlds that doesn't support it as a feature.
Thank you Loktofeit. You explain this very well. You're right there is no real market for PD games. Yea is a very niche market but too niche really to be successful. If I said lets play a PD game for my friends that would LOL and say no way in hell. It just does not work here.
Originally posted by danwest58 It was tried in SWG and failed causing people to quit the game.
SWG did NOT have permadeath. It was ingame for like a week and then they converted it to a trained XP loss/death system.
So any loss of players can not be credited to permadeath content.
The reason why the people left the game was because it was still in alpha mode when released -forced release- and because of a sandbox-turned-to-themepark-to-lure-in-WoW-customers-idea, which was rushed in 6 months as a secret side project to fool the customers and very, VERY poorly done with 2 weeks release notice.
Muke,
Sorry you are wrong. I had friends in a fairly large guild in SWG which was a part of an alliance that my guild was a part of. They all had Jedi in the first month or so when the Holocrons came out and they all quit after grinding then having a Jedi killed during the Permadeath phase. Now If I remember my publishes correctly Holocrons were out in Pub 4 or 5, Oct to Dec time frame of 2003. In 2004 Pub 6 came out in Feb where they did remove the permadeath. Yes it was in for a short time HOWEVER it did cause a lot of people I played with to quit. I had a person in my guild well 2 both had Jedi that were killed during this time they left and so did a few of their friends.
Some of what you say is true but Permadeath was in the game for a few months. Not long I will give you that. It was in long enough for people to quit. Guess what most of those who quit during that time later shown up in WOW. Imagine that
I was a early dec 2004 jedi unlock. Permadeath was in place for like mostly 1-2 months before they overhauled it.
That permadeath system did not cause players to quit,. Well, a few might, burnt out by the grind.
The grind and the lack of content did the trick. By then SWG started to bleed already.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
If I am playing an MMO I am not going to play an MMORPG like I would play an MOBA. An MMORPG best survives when players are invested in their character and want to keep progressing it. If that character is DEAD then guess what I am not going to play that game because my character is dead. I also do not believe in short term progression and starting over, if I do that I would rather play an MOBA because I an not having to RELEARN shit.
Again, you are bringing in your preconceived notions on what an mmo has to be based upon what you like.
Did you ever consider that for some people, especially for permadeath games, it's not about the investment in one character where the draw resides but the investment in, say, a dynasty? Or a family tree?
Permadeath games are not about one character they are about a chain of characters. Unless you can understand this concept it's going to be difficult for you to see any other point other than "I", "I", "I".
Point is I am playing 1 Character. Thats what I want to play and develop. If I need to do another because Helz is dead I will just quit period. I understand that you are saying it's a Chain, what I am saying is you are breaking my progression with the one Character I made. I would have to go make another, now if you made it that the new one is just a chain of the one that dyed I say then what is the point of PD then.
Take this for example. I am the tank for my group of friends in FFXIV. I do play other jobs for low level instance for fun and to level. However I am focused on my tank, I want to be the MT for my group of friends. Now if that Character dies I start over right, level even if its fast I am not going to like that at all. Now if I can create a character that is basically the same as my tank near the same level then what is the point I just lost my character name nothing else. The point is anything that kills my character from being able to be the tank of my group of friends will just make me walk away from the game. There is no middle ground on this. Its a great feature for non MMOs however for MMOs no its really not, even low budget games will not do well with this feature because the entire point of PD is to make death hurt so players learn or do stupid things. Well it does not matter people will die in MMOs its just how they are even in the UO days.
Dan, that's all great. Seriously. I get it.
I'll even tell you why I get it. My elder scrolls character is the same character from morrowind, through oblvion, into skyrim and even the Elder Scrolls Online. with supporting reasons as to why.
The issue here is you "don't get it'.
This is a perfectly fine system in an mmo for people who want this system. An mmo that had this system would be about a family or as I mentioned, a chain of characters.
You say it doesn't work but it does simply because there are people who would like this system in an mmo. They understand about "multiple characters".
Maybe I can put it another way. Have you ever read Isaac Asimov's foundation books?
You start with x characters to learn about, to get attached to only for them to be long gone in a few pages/chapters so that you are given an entirely new set.
That's because those stories aren't about a set of charcters or one protagonist but many characters.
On a certain level it's like the x-com games where a character can die and that's it. That's because those games aren't about "one character" but an entire squad and those that contribute to it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Only place this brings enough players companies make money is survival games like H1Z1. Most of the market is made up of casual players and I dont see this being an option any more. Unless some niche crowdfunded game looks to grab that small % of players that like this feature. Even then, survival games have most of that type of player already playing a game. Only way I would play a game like that is if there was no levels and gear held little meaning.
yep, totaly wouldn't work on hack n slay games.
uh wait, yes it does, we call it hardcore mode.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Gordon Walton is on record as saying that Crowfall appeals to about 30% of the market. Consider the much smaller slice that will be enthused with a cut and dried Permadeath rules set. That percentage (and what they will pay) will define how much you can spend on your game design and development.
As some have already said it is more likely to work in games where you don't have as much invested in your character. IE, not most MMOs.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I was a early dec 2004 jedi unlock. Permadeath was in place for like mostly 1-2 months before they overhauled it.
That permadeath system did not cause players to quit,. Well, a few might, burnt out by the grind.
The grind and the lack of content did the trick. By then SWG started to bleed already.
Fact conceded. A little searching "The Google" supports your point that permadeath was removed in late January/early Feb. And according to Raph, the sub loss was, to paraphrase, largely due to a jedi system which forced players to grind professions they never even wanted to play.
But the fact that PD was the first thing to go in a system in which even the developers acknowledge was a horrible mess is poor testimony for the appeal of PD.
As an aside, I'm glad I decided that being a Jedi wasn't worth losing my sanity over. I never bothered with it in any of its incarnations.
I honestly think hardcore is underutilized, i just started design on the mmo i'm going to make, and permadeath is on the features list. The way i see it, it should be optional.
Right now my idea for it is, normal pvp is treated more like duels, war for territory like castle sieges etc, you put your life on the line. You die while fighting for ownership of territory, you're dead. It's war after all. So if you like your character too much, dont go to war.
Comments
ASCEND this game make u see ur previous living characters as part of crusade invading other players worlds ... but u don't die u Ascend and u evolv and progress ...
I would't play PD MMO something must be left after ur char die. Maybe ala champions points in ESO some progression must be kept after ur char die
Wizardry Online tried it and failed.
I believe there are games in the pipe that have permadeath options (Shards Online being one?), but there are issues with it at both levels (PvP and PvE). In PvP you either end up with entire servers of lowbies (because nobody can progress) or you get gankfests. One idea I've always had to handle ganking is to debuff the ganker. So basically debuff their stats so they are, for instance, equal to the level of the enemy they just killed (where the enemy was -15 levels) for instance. So this might solve ganking but then see point 1.
For PvE, it becomes a matter of content difficulty versus survivability. PvE is about progression. Raids are difficult (or can be) and when you introduce permadeath then, all of a sudden, you remove all fun from the game. On top of that, classes like tanks and healers basically become horribly abused because "They killed everyone". Maybe they could sell resurrection scrolls in the shop
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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no.
Every time someone posts this I have to remind them that the whole idea of having any rule set is so that everyone has a shared experience and the same shared experience.
Also it's perfectly ok to have perma death games just like it's perfectly ok to have ffa pvp games or just pve games.
It doesn't take anything away to have these games. Just don't play on them. People think that their existence is so threatening and it's beyond me as to why.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yea you can have them in your low pop games that struggle to survive or shut down like wizardry online. O hey look at that a game that had PD shut down. Yep thats right the game shut down. Let's look at another MMO that had PD SWG, people quit the game because their Jedi died, now it didn't shut down solely because of Jedi were PD however it played a large role in it.
Sorry no. This topic needs to stop popping up on the forums selling people on it. Sorry it just will not work in an MMO. I would do it in D3, or RPG games no problem NOT in a MMO where I invest thousands of hours in.
SWG did NOT have permadeath. It was ingame for like a week and then they converted it to a trained XP loss/death system.
So any loss of players can not be credited to permadeath content.
The reason why the people left the game was because it was still in alpha mode when released -forced release- and because of a sandbox-turned-to-themepark-to-lure-in-WoW-customers-idea, which was rushed in 6 months as a secret side project to fool the customers and very, VERY poorly done with 2 weeks release notice.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
That's the fault of game developers for developing games that need a larger amount of money to survive.
As long as they budget correctly and make sure that the game can start out low population and stay afloat it's a non-issue. Otherwise what you are saying is that the only things that should exist are majority rules and that would pretty much leave a very bland and white washed "world pallet" for anything to exist.
to that end, "you wouldn't be playing an mmo where there would be permadeath therefore you wouldn't lose thousands of hours".
I swear, some of you really believe that you are going to be kidnapped and forced to play these games and are so scared that this will happen that their mere existence is too much.
Additionally, you "don't get it". Permadeath games are not about you investing thousands of hours into one character. why is this so hard? They are about an entirely different experience. You sound like permadeath games are the same as taking a WoW type game and just plopping in permadeath.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If I am playing an MMO I am not going to play an MMORPG like I would play an MOBA. An MMORPG best survives when players are invested in their character and want to keep progressing it. If that character is DEAD then guess what I am not going to play that game because my character is dead. I also do not believe in short term progression and starting over, if I do that I would rather play an MOBA because I an not having to RELEARN shit.
Again, you are bringing in your preconceived notions on what an mmo has to be based upon what you like.
Did you ever consider that for some people, especially for permadeath games, it's not about the investment in one character where the draw resides but the investment in, say, a dynasty? Or a family tree?
Permadeath games are not about one character they are about a chain of characters. Unless you can understand this concept it's going to be difficult for you to see any other point other than "I", "I", "I".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Obviously it wouldn't be that simple to lose your character for good. It would be much more complicated mechanism, like dying several times in short period of time or having a certain amount of total deaths on your toon.
I'd like to see this kind of feature on PvE servers to spice up the otherwise boring gameplay. On PvP servers this could be a bit harsh, or idk, maybe it would make some things much more interesting
MMOs are often accused for lack of (relevant) content and alt-unfriendlyness. Maybe this could be an answer; you lose your main if you're not playing well enough and have to start a new one.
Muke,
Sorry you are wrong. I had friends in a fairly large guild in SWG which was a part of an alliance that my guild was a part of. They all had Jedi in the first month or so when the Holocrons came out and they all quit after grinding then having a Jedi killed during the Permadeath phase. Now If I remember my publishes correctly Holocrons were out in Pub 4 or 5, Oct to Dec time frame of 2003. In 2004 Pub 6 came out in Feb where they did remove the permadeath. Yes it was in for a short time HOWEVER it did cause a lot of people I played with to quit. I had a person in my guild well 2 both had Jedi that were killed during this time they left and so did a few of their friends.
Some of what you say is true but Permadeath was in the game for a few months. Not long I will give you that. It was in long enough for people to quit. Guess what most of those who quit during that time later shown up in WOW. Imagine that
I guess you're not familiar with Wizardry Online. In Japan, they spent the money, developed the game, and because of how they game over there, the game did well. It's still running. That budget nonsense has nothing to do with gameplay that the target audience does not want or like. It was licensed by SOE, run over here, AND TANKED. Not because there wasn't enough spent on it or too much spent on it, but because in NA/EU, there really isn't that much of an audience for it.
Salem is adorable. People aren't avoiding the permadeath there because of its crappy graphics. People are avoiding it because in this market you have a view of time investment and character ownership in persistent state worlds that doesn't support it as a feature.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Realm of the Mad God is a nice example of a modern game that has permadeath and it works for that game.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Point is I am playing 1 Character. Thats what I want to play and develop. If I need to do another because Helz is dead I will just quit period. I understand that you are saying it's a Chain, what I am saying is you are breaking my progression with the one Character I made. I would have to go make another, now if you made it that the new one is just a chain of the one that dyed I say then what is the point of PD then.
Take this for example. I am the tank for my group of friends in FFXIV. I do play other jobs for low level instance for fun and to level. However I am focused on my tank, I want to be the MT for my group of friends. Now if that Character dies I start over right, level even if its fast I am not going to like that at all. Now if I can create a character that is basically the same as my tank near the same level then what is the point I just lost my character name nothing else. The point is anything that kills my character from being able to be the tank of my group of friends will just make me walk away from the game. There is no middle ground on this. Its a great feature for non MMOs however for MMOs no its really not, even low budget games will not do well with this feature because the entire point of PD is to make death hurt so players learn or do stupid things. Well it does not matter people will die in MMOs its just how they are even in the UO days.
Exactly.
and I agree this could be a great system if it was implemented with a predominantly pve experience.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think they're referring to the 1st jedi system, which was in place until NGE if I recall correctly. The same jedi system that according to Raph himself, brought about the beginning of the end of SWG.
The Dragonrealms MUD that I played back in the 90's had permadeath, but the permanent bit was easily avoidable. Not going into much detail, you basically sacrificed incoming "learning"(XP) to a sphere which you offered to a shrine. Each one would grant you a resurrection. I don't recall ever having more than 3, but the number you could charge up may have been unlimited.
That's about as far as I would accept for PD, and for me to bother with it these days, the rest of the game would have elicit a bliss you could only get from a beejer on a hot-tub rollercoaster while eating cheesecake.
There's definitely a market for MMO's with permadeath, games like Salem are proof of that. However, Salem is also proof of the fact that it's a very, very small market.
There's a huge market for permadeath in non-MMO's, though. Just look at DayZ, Rust, H1Z1, et all. Nobody minds dying if everybody else is also dying in the first 7 days. No great loss there.
Nobody in their right mind will play an MMO with permadeath when a lag spike or a hacker can end your 6-month old character in the blink of an eye, regardless of how carefully you play...
Thank you Loktofeit. You explain this very well. You're right there is no real market for PD games. Yea is a very niche market but too niche really to be successful. If I said lets play a PD game for my friends that would LOL and say no way in hell. It just does not work here.
I was a early dec 2004 jedi unlock. Permadeath was in place for like mostly 1-2 months before they overhauled it.
That permadeath system did not cause players to quit,. Well, a few might, burnt out by the grind.
The grind and the lack of content did the trick. By then SWG started to bleed already.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Dan, that's all great. Seriously. I get it.
I'll even tell you why I get it. My elder scrolls character is the same character from morrowind, through oblvion, into skyrim and even the Elder Scrolls Online. with supporting reasons as to why.
The issue here is you "don't get it'.
This is a perfectly fine system in an mmo for people who want this system. An mmo that had this system would be about a family or as I mentioned, a chain of characters.
You say it doesn't work but it does simply because there are people who would like this system in an mmo. They understand about "multiple characters".
Maybe I can put it another way. Have you ever read Isaac Asimov's foundation books?
You start with x characters to learn about, to get attached to only for them to be long gone in a few pages/chapters so that you are given an entirely new set.
That's because those stories aren't about a set of charcters or one protagonist but many characters.
On a certain level it's like the x-com games where a character can die and that's it. That's because those games aren't about "one character" but an entire squad and those that contribute to it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
yep, totaly wouldn't work on hack n slay games.
uh wait, yes it does, we call it hardcore mode.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Gordon Walton is on record as saying that Crowfall appeals to about 30% of the market. Consider the much smaller slice that will be enthused with a cut and dried Permadeath rules set. That percentage (and what they will pay) will define how much you can spend on your game design and development.
As some have already said it is more likely to work in games where you don't have as much invested in your character. IE, not most MMOs.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Fact conceded. A little searching "The Google" supports your point that permadeath was removed in late January/early Feb. And according to Raph, the sub loss was, to paraphrase, largely due to a jedi system which forced players to grind professions they never even wanted to play.
But the fact that PD was the first thing to go in a system in which even the developers acknowledge was a horrible mess is poor testimony for the appeal of PD.
As an aside, I'm glad I decided that being a Jedi wasn't worth losing my sanity over. I never bothered with it in any of its incarnations.
I honestly think hardcore is underutilized, i just started design on the mmo i'm going to make, and permadeath is on the features list. The way i see it, it should be optional.
Right now my idea for it is, normal pvp is treated more like duels, war for territory like castle sieges etc, you put your life on the line. You die while fighting for ownership of territory, you're dead. It's war after all. So if you like your character too much, dont go to war.