Ark : Survival Evolved seems very sandbox like to me. It also allows player run servers who could press the sandbox aspect even more, it has both PVE and PVP servers(only having PVP servers was a huge mistake of many sandbox games in my view). It is already in the steam top 10 of most played games. http://store.steampowered.com/stats/?l=dutch
This only proves the point of why would devs make a game like Wurm that nobody plays or cares about.
I don't give a fuck what point if proves, I'm just answering the person i quoted.
I don't lose sleep over petty bullshit.
I never said that you should give anything. This example just shows why devs are not making these types of games because their is no demand for them. Thanks for showing us your amazing skills of profanity usage.
This only proves the point of why would devs make a game like Wurm that nobody plays or cares about.
I don't give a fuck what point if proves, I'm just answering the person i quoted.
I don't lose sleep over petty bullshit.
I never said that you should give anything. This example just shows why devs are not making these types of games because their is no demand for them. Thanks for showing us your amazing skills of profanity usage.
And how do you know there is no demand for them, have you numbers to back up your silly claim. Wurm Online has a player base, small I know but it has one.
The main reason most don't play it is because of the graphics and nothing to do with what type of mmo it is.
where the **** are the games for the hype? Still not a single new decent Sandbox-Release till today. What are the companies doing? Chilling and sleeping?
I cant understant that....
I'm going to go out on a limb and state sand box games due to their open nature, and increase in choice take longer to make and balance then you average theme park on rails MMO, ( which in themselves generally take at least 4-5 years to make, so 3 isn't much .)
As to what the companies making games are doing I'd guess mainly chasing the masses IE Wow Clone and theme parks. Sand boxes for the amount of time and investment involved are general considered nitche. I could go for a good sand box game myself but that doesn't the majority of paying players out there right want one.
Not sure of your idea of sand Box but PG (project Gorgon) looks promising if you don't mind the current dated graphics
Actually themepark games take a LOT more time and money and staff to create because of all of the quest content.
You can hear that from the mouth of Mr. Ralph Koster himself.
Also, any AAA game (usually themepark) will have much higher quality art assets, which, you guessed it, take tons more time and money to create.
A lot of these indie & sandbox type games get away with using pre-fab assets from like Unity engine and such.
Everything in a AAA is (almost always) "hand" made from scratch by the dev teams.
I mean, the two real "big" sandbox games out there and in production (that people are just DROOLING over) are:
1. Minecraft
2. No Man's Sky
Minecraft was originally made by like, 1 dude, and No Man's Sky is a team of I think 6-8 people?
Those two games are about as sandbox as you can get.
SO SO SO much dev time and art assets and writing and testing and QA and and and and and goes into making themepark content like quests, and dungeons, and raids.
A AAA dev studio, using pre-fab assets like textures, some basic 3D models (trees and such), an off the shelf (& customized) game engine etc. could probably whip up a true sandbox game in under a year. Easy.
It's the CONTENT that takes forever to create.
Heck, a lot of studios do this - for instance Zenimax created the original "test" world/builds for ESO in the Hero Engine, because it was a lot faster/easier to prototype using an off-the-shelf engine.
I don't know, any REAL dev studio that can't release a content light, systems (programming) heavy sandbox MMO in a couple of years is either A) milking your time & money via crowd funding run/managed poorly C) doesn't have talented developers
That's why you see a game like Star Citizen taking forever to get made. It is BOTH systems heavy and content heavy. They are now a HUGE company of almost 300 and they've been working on SC for years!
How well managed the company is, and how talented the devs actually are, and how much of it is/was them milking the KS for funds, well... call me a cynic, but much smaller studios have created much more "game" in a much shorter time.
This only proves the point of why would devs make a game like Wurm that nobody plays or cares about.
I don't give a fuck what point if proves, I'm just answering the person i quoted.
I don't lose sleep over petty bullshit.
I never said that you should give anything. This example just shows why devs are not making these types of games because their is no demand for them. Thanks for showing us your amazing skills of profanity usage.
And how do you know there is no demand for them, have you numbers to back up your silly claim. Wurm Online has a player base, small I know but it has one.
The main reason most don't play it is because of the graphics and nothing to do with what type of mmo it is.
Nice try though.
So now I have a silly claim? Gratz to me I guess.
" Wurm Online has a player base, small I know but it has one."
You just answered your own question and solved the riddle at the same time.
Why would devs model their game after a game with a small player base? When you make a mmo you look at what people like to play and you take that and try to improve upon it.
You still with me because this is where it gets tough.
Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn did exactly what I said a dev should do and they have found more success then any mmo released since World Of Warcraft. Not saying you make a game exactly like Final Fantasy but you look at what people love about it.
Class is over for today and I hope you have gotten something out of my lecture.
This only proves the point of why would devs make a game like Wurm that nobody plays or cares about.
I don't give a fuck what point if proves, I'm just answering the person i quoted.
I don't lose sleep over petty bullshit.
I never said that you should give anything. This example just shows why devs are not making these types of games because their is no demand for them. Thanks for showing us your amazing skills of profanity usage.
And how do you know there is no demand for them, have you numbers to back up your silly claim. Wurm Online has a player base, small I know but it has one.
The main reason most don't play it is because of the graphics and nothing to do with what type of mmo it is.
Nice try though.
I think you will find that you just answered your own question.
Small playerbase, doesn't matter the reasons, they are often many and varied, but the end result is the same. There just isn't much demand for those kinds of things, just because a few shout very loudly that there is, does not make it so.
MMO's are driven by market forces much the same as any marketable commodity, so without demand, there will be no product.
Ever wonder if anyone ever tries communicating their displeasure with the pace of title development or direction with the actual developers?
Here you are, complaining away, on a message board...run by a third party.
Two steps further removed from the guys who might actually effect change. Not speaking directly to the company(s), not speaking on the company(s) message boards...or their facebook pages or twitter accounts.
---
"There is a demand!" We'll prove it by shouting furiously....on this other site, somewhere off on the internet...and just trust in luck or fate or divine providence to see that message might be delivered or read by somebody who might be able to do something about it, some day, somehow.
where the **** are the games for the hype? Still not a single new decent Sandbox-Release till today. What are the companies doing? Chilling and sleeping?
I cant understant that....
I'm going to go out on a limb and state sand box games due to their open nature, and increase in choice take longer to make and balance then you average theme park on rails MMO, ( which in themselves generally take at least 4-5 years to make, so 3 isn't much .)
As to what the companies making games are doing I'd guess mainly chasing the masses IE Wow Clone and theme parks. Sand boxes for the amount of time and investment involved are general considered nitche. I could go for a good sand box game myself but that doesn't the majority of paying players out there right want one.
Not sure of your idea of sand Box but PG (project Gorgon) looks promising if you don't mind the current dated graphics
Actually themepark games take a LOT more time and money and staff to create because of all of the quest content.
You can hear that from the mouth of Mr. Ralph Koster himself.
Also, any AAA game (usually themepark) will have much higher quality art assets, which, you guessed it, take tons more time and money to create.
A lot of these indie & sandbox type games get away with using pre-fab assets from like Unity engine and such.
Everything in a AAA is (almost always) "hand" made from scratch by the dev teams.
I mean, the two real "big" sandbox games out there and in production (that people are just DROOLING over) are:
1. Minecraft
2. No Man's Sky
Minecraft was originally made by like, 1 dude, and No Man's Sky is a team of I think 6-8 people?
Those two games are about as sandbox as you can get.
SO SO SO much dev time and art assets and writing and testing and QA and and and and and goes into making themepark content like quests, and dungeons, and raids.
A AAA dev studio, using pre-fab assets like textures, some basic 3D models (trees and such), an off the shelf (& customized) game engine etc. could probably whip up a true sandbox game in under a year. Easy.
It's the CONTENT that takes forever to create.
Heck, a lot of studios do this - for instance Zenimax created the original "test" world/builds for ESO in the Hero Engine, because it was a lot faster/easier to prototype using an off-the-shelf engine.
I don't know, any REAL dev studio that can't release a content light, systems (programming) heavy sandbox MMO in a couple of years is either A) milking your time & money via crowd funding run/managed poorly C) doesn't have talented developers
That's why you see a game like Star Citizen taking forever to get made. It is BOTH systems heavy and content heavy. They are now a HUGE company of almost 300 and they've been working on SC for years!
How well managed the company is, and how talented the devs actually are, and how much of it is/was them milking the KS for funds, well... call me a cynic, but much smaller studios have created much more "game" in a much shorter time.
First, I'll agree that creating content is a very time-consuming process. However, creating a system-driven world (like a sandbox) that doesn't just feel empty isn't trivial, either. I'm sorry, I never really "got" Minecraft. My kids love it, but I haven't been able to wrap my head around some of these mods they play. I'll take a loaded gun or a bottle of pills over that. We haven't seen No Man's Sky yet. I'm looking forward to it, since I loved Spore, but I don't expect it to be anything more than that, really. It's Spore.
Secondly, ok, I'll call you a cynic I don't think that smaller studios have created much more "game" in a much shorter time. There are a plethora of unknowns. First is engine, what do they already have? How much skin is in the game already? Second is assets. Can we just re-render the dwarfs on level 7 a different color? Do we already have all the art we'll need? Are there already frameworks we can leverage to get this done faster? Third is difficulty. There are PLENTY of tools out there for helping devs "move faster". How much of what we're doing has been done before? Is there a precedent for what we're doing? Do we have a model? What are the technical challenges?
It's easy to trivialize these sorts of things but, in the end, each game is different and has different challenges. Some great games might be made quite quickly given the right conditions, such as having a base framework already done. Why do you think that we can churn out these generic KR MMOs so quickly?
I'm going to go out on a limb and state sand box games due to their open nature, and increase in choice take longer to make and balance then you average theme park on rails MMO, ( which in themselves generally take at least 4-5 years to make, so 3 isn't much .)
SO SO SO much dev time and art assets and writing and testing and QA and and and and and goes into making themepark content like quests, and dungeons, and raids.
A AAA dev studio, using pre-fab assets like textures, some basic 3D models (trees and such), an off the shelf (& customized) game engine etc. could probably whip up a true sandbox game in under a year. Easy.
It's the CONTENT that takes forever to create.
First, I'll agree that creating content is a very time-consuming process. However, creating a system-driven world (like a sandbox) that doesn't just feel empty isn't trivial, either. I'm sorry, I never really "got" Minecraft. My kids love it, but I haven't been able to wrap my head around some of these mods they play. I'll take a loaded gun or a bottle of pills over that. We haven't seen No Man's Sky yet. I'm looking forward to it, since I loved Spore, but I don't expect it to be anything more than that, really. It's Spore.
Secondly, ok, I'll call you a cynic I don't think that smaller studios have created much more "game" in a much shorter time. There are a plethora of unknowns. First is engine, what do they already have? How much skin is in the game already? Second is assets. Can we just re-render the dwarfs on level 7 a different color? Do we already have all the art we'll need? Are there already frameworks we can leverage to get this done faster? Third is difficulty. There are PLENTY of tools out there for helping devs "move faster". How much of what we're doing has been done before? Is there a precedent for what we're doing? Do we have a model? What are the technical challenges?
It's easy to trivialize these sorts of things but, in the end, each game is different and has different challenges. Some great games might be made quite quickly given the right conditions, such as having a base framework already done. Why do you think that we can churn out these generic KR MMOs so quickly?
Well yeah, I'm generalizing a bit
But you can see the "proof in the pudding" with the KR MMOs. They churn those out SO quickly, and they all have pretty much the exact same structure, art style/assets, engine, and just minor variations/twist to the gameplay mechanics like - this one has pets you battle! This one is DRAGON pets! This one, you turn INTO a DRAGON PET!
That kind of thing.
But those games, always grindy, and if you removed all of the quests and just made them about grinding mobs in the open world, added more of a harsh death penalty, and allowed open world PvP - they'd be just about 90% of what players here on MMORPG SAY that they want, and you'd have a new one every 9 months!
I'm going to go out on a limb and state sand box games due to their open nature, and increase in choice take longer to make and balance then you average theme park on rails MMO, ( which in themselves generally take at least 4-5 years to make, so 3 isn't much .)
SO SO SO much dev time and art assets and writing and testing and QA and and and and and goes into making themepark content like quests, and dungeons, and raids.
A AAA dev studio, using pre-fab assets like textures, some basic 3D models (trees and such), an off the shelf (& customized) game engine etc. could probably whip up a true sandbox game in under a year. Easy.
It's the CONTENT that takes forever to create.
First, I'll agree that creating content is a very time-consuming process. However, creating a system-driven world (like a sandbox) that doesn't just feel empty isn't trivial, either. I'm sorry, I never really "got" Minecraft. My kids love it, but I haven't been able to wrap my head around some of these mods they play. I'll take a loaded gun or a bottle of pills over that. We haven't seen No Man's Sky yet. I'm looking forward to it, since I loved Spore, but I don't expect it to be anything more than that, really. It's Spore.
Secondly, ok, I'll call you a cynic I don't think that smaller studios have created much more "game" in a much shorter time. There are a plethora of unknowns. First is engine, what do they already have? How much skin is in the game already? Second is assets. Can we just re-render the dwarfs on level 7 a different color? Do we already have all the art we'll need? Are there already frameworks we can leverage to get this done faster? Third is difficulty. There are PLENTY of tools out there for helping devs "move faster". How much of what we're doing has been done before? Is there a precedent for what we're doing? Do we have a model? What are the technical challenges?
It's easy to trivialize these sorts of things but, in the end, each game is different and has different challenges. Some great games might be made quite quickly given the right conditions, such as having a base framework already done. Why do you think that we can churn out these generic KR MMOs so quickly?
Well yeah, I'm generalizing a bit
But you can see the "proof in the pudding" with the KR MMOs. They churn those out SO quickly, and they all have pretty much the exact same structure, art style/assets, engine, and just minor variations/twist to the gameplay mechanics like - this one has pets you battle! This one is DRAGON pets! This one, you turn INTO a DRAGON PET!
That kind of thing.
But those games, always grindy, and if you removed all of the quests and just made them about grinding mobs in the open world, added more of a harsh death penalty, and allowed open world PvP - they'd be just about 90% of what players here on MMORPG SAY that they want, and you'd have a new one every 9 months!
Every 9 months? That might be a little long, even Let's get rid of the intro cinematics and cut it down to 4 months I think that creating meaningful sandboxes is difficult. I don't think people necessarily want sandboxes as much as they want innovation. There are plenty of sandbox games out there which are as underwhelming as any other themepark. I think there's a real lack of inspiration in the genre as a whole, rather than a specific type of game.
This only proves the point of why would devs make a game like Wurm that nobody plays or cares about.
This was my point. Many people say EVE is the sandbox. Others have called Arch Age a Sandbox. SWG was one too. And yet fort all of those examples, I have also seen arguments as to why someone said they weren't.
I guess Wrum could be considered a pure sandbox. And on paper it looks like a fantastic game. Until you actually start playing it. Then you will have this desire to log off and sign into your company laptop and start doing work there because it's more fun.
where the **** are the games for the hype? Still not a single new decent Sandbox-Release till today. What are the companies doing? Chilling and sleeping?
I cant understant that....
I'm going to go out on a limb and state sand box games due to their open nature, and increase in choice take longer to make and balance then you average theme park on rails MMO, ( which in themselves generally take at least 4-5 years to make, so 3 isn't much .)
As to what the companies making games are doing I'd guess mainly chasing the masses IE Wow Clone and theme parks. Sand boxes for the amount of time and investment involved are general considered nitche. I could go for a good sand box game myself but that doesn't the majority of paying players out there right want one.
Not sure of your idea of sand Box but PG (project Gorgon) looks promising if you don't mind the current dated graphics
Actually themepark games take a LOT more time and money and staff to create because of all of the quest content.
You can hear that from the mouth of Mr. Ralph Koster himself.
Also, any AAA game (usually themepark) will have much higher quality art assets, which, you guessed it, take tons more time and money to create.
A lot of these indie & sandbox type games get away with using pre-fab assets from like Unity engine and such.
Everything in a AAA is (almost always) "hand" made from scratch by the dev teams.
I mean, the two real "big" sandbox games out there and in production (that people are just DROOLING over) are:
1. Minecraft
2. No Man's Sky
Minecraft was originally made by like, 1 dude, and No Man's Sky is a team of I think 6-8 people?
Sandbox is still the most overused catch word in MMO gaming.....The games that are sandboxes are horrible (Eve? really?) and most of the time the best these games can offer is full drop PVP loot.
Originally posted by Theocritus Sandbox is still the most overused catch word in MMO gaming.....The games that are sandboxes are horrible (Eve? really?) and most of the time the best these games can offer is full drop PVP loot.
"Sandbox" is so overused, even Themepark games are using it.
Sandbox was as dumb as the name they gave it at conception, in my opinion. I hope the genre fails, and we get back to the origins of the MMO roots.
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Originally posted by Baghool Sandbox was as dumb as the name they gave it at conception, in my opinion. I hope the genre fails, and we get back to the origins of the MMO roots.
MUDs...?
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Comments
This only proves the point of why would devs make a game like Wurm that nobody plays or cares about.
I don't give a fuck what point if proves, I'm just answering the person i quoted.
I don't lose sleep over petty bullshit.
I never said that you should give anything. This example just shows why devs are not making these types of games because their is no demand for them. Thanks for showing us your amazing skills of profanity usage.
And how do you know there is no demand for them, have you numbers to back up your silly claim. Wurm Online has a player base, small I know but it has one.
The main reason most don't play it is because of the graphics and nothing to do with what type of mmo it is.
Nice try though.
Actually themepark games take a LOT more time and money and staff to create because of all of the quest content.
You can hear that from the mouth of Mr. Ralph Koster himself.
Also, any AAA game (usually themepark) will have much higher quality art assets, which, you guessed it, take tons more time and money to create.
A lot of these indie & sandbox type games get away with using pre-fab assets from like Unity engine and such.
Everything in a AAA is (almost always) "hand" made from scratch by the dev teams.
I mean, the two real "big" sandbox games out there and in production (that people are just DROOLING over) are:
1. Minecraft
2. No Man's Sky
Minecraft was originally made by like, 1 dude, and No Man's Sky is a team of I think 6-8 people?
Those two games are about as sandbox as you can get.
SO SO SO much dev time and art assets and writing and testing and QA and and and and and goes into making themepark content like quests, and dungeons, and raids.
A AAA dev studio, using pre-fab assets like textures, some basic 3D models (trees and such), an off the shelf (& customized) game engine etc. could probably whip up a true sandbox game in under a year. Easy.
It's the CONTENT that takes forever to create.
Heck, a lot of studios do this - for instance Zenimax created the original "test" world/builds for ESO in the Hero Engine, because it was a lot faster/easier to prototype using an off-the-shelf engine.
I don't know, any REAL dev studio that can't release a content light, systems (programming) heavy sandbox MMO in a couple of years is either A) milking your time & money via crowd funding
run/managed poorly C) doesn't have talented developers
That's why you see a game like Star Citizen taking forever to get made. It is BOTH systems heavy and content heavy. They are now a HUGE company of almost 300 and they've been working on SC for years!
How well managed the company is, and how talented the devs actually are, and how much of it is/was them milking the KS for funds, well... call me a cynic, but much smaller studios have created much more "game" in a much shorter time.
So now I have a silly claim? Gratz to me I guess.
" Wurm Online has a player base, small I know but it has one."
You just answered your own question and solved the riddle at the same time.
Why would devs model their game after a game with a small player base? When you make a mmo you look at what people like to play and you take that and try to improve upon it.
You still with me because this is where it gets tough.
Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn did exactly what I said a dev should do and they have found more success then any mmo released since World Of Warcraft. Not saying you make a game exactly like Final Fantasy but you look at what people love about it.
Class is over for today and I hope you have gotten something out of my lecture.
I think you will find that you just answered your own question.
Small playerbase, doesn't matter the reasons, they are often many and varied, but the end result is the same. There just isn't much demand for those kinds of things, just because a few shout very loudly that there is, does not make it so.
MMO's are driven by market forces much the same as any marketable commodity, so without demand, there will be no product.
Ever wonder if anyone ever tries communicating their displeasure with the pace of title development or direction with the actual developers?
Here you are, complaining away, on a message board...run by a third party.
Two steps further removed from the guys who might actually effect change. Not speaking directly to the company(s), not speaking on the company(s) message boards...or their facebook pages or twitter accounts.
---
"There is a demand!" We'll prove it by shouting furiously....on this other site, somewhere off on the internet...and just trust in luck or fate or divine providence to see that message might be delivered or read by somebody who might be able to do something about it, some day, somehow.
Ineffective communication is key!
"But theme parks got what plants crave..."
I haven't got time to read this thread.
Have we decided on what a sandbox is yet?
Thanks in advance.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
First, I'll agree that creating content is a very time-consuming process. However, creating a system-driven world (like a sandbox) that doesn't just feel empty isn't trivial, either. I'm sorry, I never really "got" Minecraft. My kids love it, but I haven't been able to wrap my head around some of these mods they play. I'll take a loaded gun or a bottle of pills over that. We haven't seen No Man's Sky yet. I'm looking forward to it, since I loved Spore, but I don't expect it to be anything more than that, really. It's Spore.
Secondly, ok, I'll call you a cynic
I don't think that smaller studios have created much more "game" in a much shorter time. There are a plethora of unknowns. First is engine, what do they already have? How much skin is in the game already? Second is assets. Can we just re-render the dwarfs on level 7 a different color? Do we already have all the art we'll need? Are there already frameworks we can leverage to get this done faster? Third is difficulty. There are PLENTY of tools out there for helping devs "move faster". How much of what we're doing has been done before? Is there a precedent for what we're doing? Do we have a model? What are the technical challenges?
It's easy to trivialize these sorts of things but, in the end, each game is different and has different challenges. Some great games might be made quite quickly given the right conditions, such as having a base framework already done. Why do you think that we can churn out these generic KR MMOs so quickly?
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Plenty demand. No support from the mainstream publishers.
Well yeah, I'm generalizing a bit
But you can see the "proof in the pudding" with the KR MMOs. They churn those out SO quickly, and they all have pretty much the exact same structure, art style/assets, engine, and just minor variations/twist to the gameplay mechanics like - this one has pets you battle! This one is DRAGON pets! This one, you turn INTO a DRAGON PET!
That kind of thing.
But those games, always grindy, and if you removed all of the quests and just made them about grinding mobs in the open world, added more of a harsh death penalty, and allowed open world PvP - they'd be just about 90% of what players here on MMORPG SAY that they want, and you'd have a new one every 9 months!
Every 9 months? That might be a little long, even
Let's get rid of the intro cinematics and cut it down to 4 months 
I think that creating meaningful sandboxes is difficult. I don't think people necessarily want sandboxes as much as they want innovation. There are plenty of sandbox games out there which are as underwhelming as any other themepark. I think there's a real lack of inspiration in the genre as a whole, rather than a specific type of game.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
This was my point. Many people say EVE is the sandbox. Others have called Arch Age a Sandbox. SWG was one too. And yet fort all of those examples, I have also seen arguments as to why someone said they weren't.
I guess Wrum could be considered a pure sandbox. And on paper it looks like a fantastic game. Until you actually start playing it. Then you will have this desire to log off and sign into your company laptop and start doing work there because it's more fun.
Might want to look at Northern Shadow aswell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpvitAQGPIg
Vast majority of people know what it is. Vast majority of people know there are many different approaches to making a sandbox mmo.
The vocal minority still asking stupid questions are trolling.
You stay sassy!
if there truly was a demand then mainstream publishers would be all over it, which is why they aren't.
Mainstream publishers don't want to try something they aren't familiar with. Most of them couldn't make a good Sandbox game if they wanted to.
As long as they can get away with making their typical crapola, that's what they'll stick with.
Once upon a time....
"Sandbox" is so overused, even Themepark games are using it.
Once upon a time....
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
MUDs...?
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/