Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I would say because they are rpg's. And rpg's typically involve progression of some kind becauseit's the easiest way to tell a story abd behind immersed in your character. You see them grow from the orphaned farm boy to the savior or the universe.
Yeah but IMO MMORPG's should be about the players stories. Even with leveling games like EQ it was still the players stories from leveling. You have the unique ability in MMORPG's to let players play the role they choose with other players without needing leveling.
I can almost guarantee you that there was more "Roleplaying" in games like UO and SWG which both didn't have levels.
My question is why do mmorpg have to be about leveling up?
1. Easier to code as a developer.
2. Constant gratification.
Players that level up and are constantly awarded by going up 1 level are more eager to continue to do the same for the next 'rush'. (and thus keep playing and paying money)
Not necessarily constant gratification but a regular sense of progress being made. That can be a double-edged sword at times. For example, the players that rather a long grind between levels feel it is, as you put, constant or instant gratification. It can also shift the focus of gameplay.
For example, UO players used to regularly petition during the last few points in the grind to 100 in a skill. To ease up the petition load and also to alleviate some of the player frustration, they decided to make the tenths of a point in progress visible to the players. This reduced the petitions and frustration because players could see that 99.1 move to a 99.2 and so on. However, this lead to even more emphasis on the stats, detracting from the more social and roleplay focused gameplay. They saw this pattern repeat itself in 2000 when they introduced Power Hour.
One thing EQ and Lineage 2 players often bring up, and it would be great to get data to back the anecdotal evidence, is that people were grinding but more social during the grind. It's entirely possible that returning to a larger gap between 'dings' may result in leveling as something to do while playing/interacting, rather than leveling being the main focus of playing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I also didn't say anything about who told the story only that it was a very effective easy of telling a story and beginning immersed in your character.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
People keep saying "it should take very long to reach max level, like those games in the old days...."
My question is why do mmorpgs have to be about leveling up?
I played many asian grinders which I have been the highest level characters on the server because I'm addicted, and I kind of understand people do it to progress their characters to be stronger...
But why does it have to be that way. Why can't mmorpg make it easy for people to maximize their character stats and let people play how ever they want? Aka Guild wars? What's wrong with that?
EDIT: I logon GW2 and see if I can solo dungeon or boss. Or join a dungeon group to improve my dungeon skills.
I go to pvp to see if I can improve my pvp skills. What does leveling have anything to do with it. It can be about "getting better"at the game. Which is a much more fun of progression. Now to mention you can just play for the social aspect like many of the sandbox games.
......Such a ridiculous question. Challenge?, Competition?, Sense of achievement? Personal glory?, there are many reasons.
Games without levels can give the same amount of satisfaction. "Mine Craft" for example, can give a sense of achievement (especially after completing an exceptionally difficult piece of red stone machinery). Another example is "Call Of Duty", which you can derive a sense of competition from (and twitch skillz). Why ask for the reason neither of these games have a traditional level up system in them? They are their own breed, and have different aims.
Minecraft is a game, I wouldn't call it an rpg. Why do people have to make it that way?
Say you don't like sour kraut but love cheesecake. So you go the a chef and ask him to make sour kraut only you give him a recipe for cheesecake to make it. So you sit about and proudly tell everyone how much you love your "sour kraut". This is how bad these conversations are getting.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Swg had levels. They just didn't label them 1 2 3 they named them novice intermediate and expert, clearly a progression system of levels.
It still wasn't leveling in the traditional sense. You weren't forced into a quest hub treadmill and isolated from newbies to accomplish gaining of skills.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Swg had levels. They just didn't label them 1 2 3 they named them novice intermediate and expert, clearly a progression system of levels.
It still wasn't leveling in the traditional sense. You weren't forced into a quest hub treadmill and isolated from newbies to accomplish gaining of skills.
Levels and quest hubs are 2 completely ideas, however they do affect each other
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
My question is why do mmorpg have to be about leveling up?
1. Easier to code as a developer.
2. Constant gratification.
Players that level up and are constantly awarded by going up 1 level are more eager to continue to do the same for the next 'rush'. (and thus keep playing and paying money)
Not necessarily constant gratification but a regular sense of progress being made. That can be a double-edged sword at times. For example, the players that rather a long grind between levels feel it is, as you put, constant or instant gratification. It can also shift the focus of gameplay.
For example, UO players used to regularly petition during the last few points in the grind to 100 in a skill. To ease up the petition load and also to alleviate some of the player frustration, they decided to make the tenths of a point in progress visible to the players. This reduced the petitions and frustration because players could see that 99.1 move to a 99.2 and so on. However, this lead to even more emphasis on the stats, detracting from the more social and roleplay focused gameplay. They saw this pattern repeat itself in 2000 when they introduced Power Hour.
One thing EQ and Lineage 2 players often bring up, and it would be great to get data to back the anecdotal evidence, is that people were grinding but more social during the grind. It's entirely possible that returning to a larger gap between 'dings' may result in leveling as something to do while playing/interacting, rather than leveling being the main focus of playing.
I think leveling and single player story line are in the way.
My question is why do mmorpg have to be about leveling up?
1. Easier to code as a developer.
2. Constant gratification.
Players that level up and are constantly awarded by going up 1 level are more eager to continue to do the same for the next 'rush'. (and thus keep playing and paying money)
Not necessarily constant gratification but a regular sense of progress being made. That can be a double-edged sword at times. For example, the players that rather a long grind between levels feel it is, as you put, constant or instant gratification. It can also shift the focus of gameplay.
For example, UO players used to regularly petition during the last few points in the grind to 100 in a skill. To ease up the petition load and also to alleviate some of the player frustration, they decided to make the tenths of a point in progress visible to the players. This reduced the petitions and frustration because players could see that 99.1 move to a 99.2 and so on. However, this lead to even more emphasis on the stats, detracting from the more social and roleplay focused gameplay. They saw this pattern repeat itself in 2000 when they introduced Power Hour.
One thing EQ and Lineage 2 players often bring up, and it would be great to get data to back the anecdotal evidence, is that people were grinding but more social during the grind. It's entirely possible that returning to a larger gap between 'dings' may result in leveling as something to do while playing/interacting, rather than leveling being the main focus of playing.
I think leveling and single player story line are in the way.
The more open-ended a game is designed to be, the more I agree with your sentiment. Leveling and the single-player story do serve a purpose, though. They give something to do to the people who can't figure out what to do. For example, there are a dozen ro so ways to branch out as a newbie in EVE or UO, however most people that log into either look around overwhelmed, lost, and confused as to where to even begin. Levels and the single player story fill that void for them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
......Such a ridiculous question. Challenge?, Competition?, Sense of achievement? Personal glory?, there are many reasons.
Games without levels can give the same amount of satisfaction. "Mine Craft" for example, can give a sense of achievement (especially after completing an exceptionally difficult piece of red stone machinery). Another example is "Call Of Duty", which you can derive a sense of competition from (and twitch skillz). Why ask for the reason neither of these games have a traditional level up system in them? They are their own breed, and have different aims.
Minecraft is a game, I wouldn't call it an rpg. Why do people have to make it that way?
Say you don't like sour kraut but love cheesecake. So you go the a chef and ask him to make sour kraut only you give him a recipe for cheesecake to make it. So you sit about and proudly tell everyone how much you love your "sour kraut". This is how bad these conversations are getting.
Well I was not necessarily trying to call Mine Craft a RPG. My point was much the same as yours. Both leveling and non-leveling games in general, have their strengths and weaknesses. Take PvP for example. In a skill progression system, if on equal terms (as far as level and items go), the one who spent the most thought on his build generally wins. No amount of "Twitch" will save you if you created a garbage character. And in regards to "Action Combat", no amount of skills or build will save you if you are as responsive as a sloth ( it is hard to fight a natural gift like reaction time). I personally appreciate both these different game design approaches ( implementation matters a great deal more to me than the system itself).
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
Still depends on the MMO you play. obviously the longer you play the game the more get familiarize with it, gaining experience throughout the game. Game Mastery as we say, however, gears, skills, and other leveling aspects affects your gameplay experience.
Comments
Yeah but IMO MMORPG's should be about the players stories. Even with leveling games like EQ it was still the players stories from leveling. You have the unique ability in MMORPG's to let players play the role they choose with other players without needing leveling.
I can almost guarantee you that there was more "Roleplaying" in games like UO and SWG which both didn't have levels.
Not necessarily constant gratification but a regular sense of progress being made. That can be a double-edged sword at times. For example, the players that rather a long grind between levels feel it is, as you put, constant or instant gratification. It can also shift the focus of gameplay.
For example, UO players used to regularly petition during the last few points in the grind to 100 in a skill. To ease up the petition load and also to alleviate some of the player frustration, they decided to make the tenths of a point in progress visible to the players. This reduced the petitions and frustration because players could see that 99.1 move to a 99.2 and so on. However, this lead to even more emphasis on the stats, detracting from the more social and roleplay focused gameplay. They saw this pattern repeat itself in 2000 when they introduced Power Hour.
One thing EQ and Lineage 2 players often bring up, and it would be great to get data to back the anecdotal evidence, is that people were grinding but more social during the grind. It's entirely possible that returning to a larger gap between 'dings' may result in leveling as something to do while playing/interacting, rather than leveling being the main focus of playing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Minecraft is a game, I wouldn't call it an rpg. Why do people have to make it that way?
Say you don't like sour kraut but love cheesecake. So you go the a chef and ask him to make sour kraut only you give him a recipe for cheesecake to make it. So you sit about and proudly tell everyone how much you love your "sour kraut". This is how bad these conversations are getting.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
It still wasn't leveling in the traditional sense. You weren't forced into a quest hub treadmill and isolated from newbies to accomplish gaining of skills.
Levels and quest hubs are 2 completely ideas, however they do affect each other
I think leveling and single player story line are in the way.
The more open-ended a game is designed to be, the more I agree with your sentiment. Leveling and the single-player story do serve a purpose, though. They give something to do to the people who can't figure out what to do. For example, there are a dozen ro so ways to branch out as a newbie in EVE or UO, however most people that log into either look around overwhelmed, lost, and confused as to where to even begin. Levels and the single player story fill that void for them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well I was not necessarily trying to call Mine Craft a RPG. My point was much the same as yours. Both leveling and non-leveling games in general, have their strengths and weaknesses. Take PvP for example. In a skill progression system, if on equal terms (as far as level and items go), the one who spent the most thought on his build generally wins. No amount of "Twitch" will save you if you created a garbage character. And in regards to "Action Combat", no amount of skills or build will save you if you are as responsive as a sloth ( it is hard to fight a natural gift like reaction time). I personally appreciate both these different game design approaches ( implementation matters a great deal more to me than the system itself).
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".