I don't think the next generation of MMO's will cater to crafter's at all. I wish they would at least stop giving epic gear drops. My idea is that they would make the drops rare crafting mats that can be taken to crafter's to craft the epic gear. Crafter's have no purpose in todays MMO's. My idea would give us purpose again.
The biggest problem I see in creating a crafting system is that it competes with drop and boss reward gear for player attention.
I have no clue how this gets balanced. Pull back hard on drops / boss reward and the PVEers don't get their cookie for pushing the button. Flood drops / boss reward and the crafters are screwed because it all ends up vendor trash.
I have to design this in the next 2 weeks. Not looking forward to it.
Boss drops and dungeon completion rewards can be SO MANY things besides gear. They can be recipes or mats needed to make that gear, possibly including ingredients needed to craft dye to customize gear or pets/mounts, or crafting tokens if it's a game where crafting per person is throttled to prevent market flooding. They can be crystals or whatever needed to enhance gear, or crystals needed to capture high-level pets. They can be emotes/gestures not included in the basic set - in Dofus for example the "fart" emote is a popular dungeon reward, iirc. They can be tickets needed to play a minigame, or consumable minigame enhancement items (like fishing bait). They can be character customization options like hairstyles, scars, tattoos, or mutations/race changes. They can be costume transformation potions that last for an hour or a day. They can be housing items like a stained glass window, a topiary tree, or simply a pile of raw stone or metal ore. They can be vegetable seeds or pet eggs. They can be inventory expansions or tokens which can be traded in large numbers for small amounts of cash shop currency. If regular monsters don't drop money, bosses might even be the main source of quick cash.
Or they can just drop gear. The best gear you can get for fighting monsters. And then you can have other activities which support crafting and gathering. Non combat activities which promote competition between players, creativity, collaboration. Various forms of racing, team sports, horticulture, pet breeding and shows, music, urban art, performing arts, fashion, interior design, architecture, the list goes on.
Then your game becomes more than a hack n slash lobby game. It becomes something akin to a living breathing world which we all claim to want so badly in our mmorpgs. Then combat becomes simply one of many meaningful activities and the loot you get from dungeons can be the best and it won't impact an entire economy based around combat because there is so much more than that.
Local rewarding vs. cross-rewarding is an interesting design issue, but one that has nothing to do with lobby design vs. virtual world design. So I'm going to ignore your second paragraph there. But let's look at your first paragraph. If you think local rewarding is better than cross-rewarding for monster killing, you are kind of logically required to prefer local rewarding for all areas of the MMO. That means racing rewards you with racing stuff, pet activities reward you with pet stuff, etc. In a coherent design philosophy, if monster hunting shouldn't have crafting requirements, neither should racing, pet activities, or other types of gameplay that aren't about crafting gameplay. But for crafting that's a problem. The implication is that crafting shouldn't produce anything useful for anything other than crafting, because if it does it's stepping on some other area's toes by preempting that area's rightful loot. But what would crafting for the sake of crafting even be, that would actually be fun gameplay?
Would you want crafting to be focused around cosmetic items? If so, then you can't sell those cosmetic items in your cash shop, so you might have a monetization problem. Architecture is good crafting fodder but either you give each player the ability to build their own house in the main world, which results in ruins everywhere and doesn't fit with a pro-grouping game, or you require people to band together to build which results in drama and means that each individual doesn't get to do a lot of building gameplay, or you go with instanced housing that most people don't give a crap about because no one else will ever admire it.
I'm saying that people who race don't win cars, football players don't get paid in footballs, and pet shows don't award their winners puppies. It's typically money and or prizes that help them with their activity. And why can't a crafter sponsor those events? What about a merchant class who can outfit an expo with vendor npcs and a tailor who makes uniforms for them and a cook who caters the event?
Dungeons are out of this loop because the lore gets in the way of cross class collaboration. It's just combat good vs evil and the bad guys aren't interested in hoarding emojis, they have a treasure of powerful magical items that cater to the combat classes.
Vanguard was a really good crafting system as stated by several others, it was a game within the game for sure and you could get lost in it.
EQ2 was a nice system although you did have to pay your dues with the early nonsense. That was a good thing in a way as it had a way of feathering out the insincere. I really loved the ways you could market your wares in EQ2 and how it tied into housing. As a carpenter I made some decent coin making items for housing.
FFXIV has some depth to it , I just had this underlying feeling that it wasn't worth all the effort although I could certainly be wrong there.
Hmmm WOW has been mentioned a few times as a shallow example. In Vanilla some of the better crafted gear was sought after. There was also a very robust economy for all sorts of crafting materials and finished goods. I made fortunes over time selling herbs and crafted shirts on RP servers. They really made a bad turn with WOD as far as crafting is concerned taking an already weak system and pounding it into oblivion.
I would have to vote EQ2 as my personal favorite because of it's fun factor...........followed very closely by Vanguard.
I think that crafters making 95% of the best gear is the way to go. For that other 5% I like the idea of random schedule drops with a very low percentage chance of getting some great item that seems to break the rules that the crafted items have to follow. But the level of commitment to get that uber dropped item needs to be sizable.
I think that having crafters be able to craft the uber gear from Boss dropped superior components is great, but I also like that to be a varying scale so that it isn't just easily farmed for the part. I wouldnt want bound items, just very rare so that they are actually worth something.
Finally i like the idea of crafting architecture and replacing the big dead spaces with player houses. Density can be controlled by many easily implemented systems, and ruins make ideal places for mobs to spawn. Keep ruin there and it spawns mobs, get rid of it and you have clean space. Give achievements and stuff for players cleaning up the landscape. easy
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
The biggest problem I see in creating a crafting system is that it competes with drop and boss reward gear for player attention.
I have no clue how this gets balanced. Pull back hard on drops / boss reward and the PVEers don't get their cookie for pushing the button. Flood drops / boss reward and the crafters are screwed because it all ends up vendor trash.
I have to design this in the next 2 weeks. Not looking forward to it.
Give each crafting profession one slot where they make the best stuff and not just at the top end but all the way up e.g.
- tailors make the best cloaks - leather workers make the best belts - smiths make the best x (or give armor buffs)
which you choose depends on how many crafting professions you have and how many gear slots
also to make it more interesting they can make a variety of those items e.g. a leather worker can make - strength belts - speed belts - poison resistance belts - magic resistance belts etc
based on finding the recipes and using different materials e.g. bear for strength, wolf for speed, snakes for poison resistance etc
I don't think the next generation of MMO's will cater to crafter's at all. I wish they would at least stop giving epic gear drops. My idea is that they would make the drops rare crafting mats that can be taken to crafter's to craft the epic gear. Crafter's have no purpose in todays MMO's. My idea would give us purpose again.
What MMORPGs are you playing?
The most recent MMORPG I've put time into (ESO) I've worn like 80% crafted gear since level 8, as it's superior to the looted gear (which makes up the remaining 20%.)
WOW crafting wasn't quite as important while leveling (though still valuable), but has consistently provided some of the best early upgrades to grab as you transition into raiding.
If you want MMORPGs where crafting is important, they're out there. I don't see where you're getting your opinion from at all.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't think the next generation of MMO's will cater to crafter's at all. I wish they would at least stop giving epic gear drops. My idea is that they would make the drops rare crafting mats that can be taken to crafter's to craft the epic gear. Crafter's have no purpose in todays MMO's. My idea would give us purpose again.
What MMORPGs are you playing?
The most recent MMORPG I've put time into (ESO) I've worn like 80% crafted gear since level 8, as it's superior to the looted gear (which makes up the remaining 20%.)
WOW crafting wasn't quite as important while leveling (though still valuable), but has consistently provided some of the best early upgrades to grab as you transition into raiding.
If you want MMORPGs where crafting is important, they're out there. I don't see where you're getting your opinion from at all.
ESO, GW2 and FF XIV do have craftingand I think we can assume that it is a standard feature most MMOs will have in the future as well.
But to be honest is crafting one of the aspect of MMOs that have evolved least since it got introduced and while it isn't the number one type of gameplay it is still rather popular so lets hope someone actually takes it to the next level soon. A few games like SWG did try it but they never really got someone following up and improving on them.
In a time few games stick out it would be nice with some additional types of endgame gameplay besides raids, PvP and dungeons. Crafting is one of the things that could be improved and help the games be more interesting long term.
I think the last western AAA MMO/CORPG without crafting was Guildwars, we might get a few more like that but I doubt it will be removed as a standard feature anytimes soon.
I'm saying that people who race don't win cars, football players don't get paid in footballs, and pet shows don't award their winners puppies. It's typically money and or prizes that help them with their activity. And why can't a crafter sponsor those events? What about a merchant class who can outfit an expo with vendor npcs and a tailor who makes uniforms for them and a cook who caters the event?
Dungeons are out of this loop because the lore gets in the way of cross class collaboration. It's just combat good vs evil and the bad guys aren't interested in hoarding emojis, they have a treasure of powerful magical items that cater to the combat classes.
Well, I don't think there's any need for dungeons to be out of this loop. First of all, good vs. evil is only a narrow range of lore possibilities, and one of my least favorite. Secondly, if the bad guy is, say, a hydra, why would it be hoarding or wearing humanoid gear? Third, emotes aren't physical, hoardable objects, they are units of communication; a humanoid can learn a new unit of communication from many sources, like seeing an action performed, seeing a wall painting or tapestry showing an action, or reading about an action. It would fit totally within the lore if a character who fought a hydra afterwards waved their arms around in the air like hydra necks while telling the story. If the bad guy was a witch doctor who did a goofy dance to curse an attacking party, the 'warriors' would definitely want to imitate the goofy dance when telling the story of their adventure later at the tavern. If a player found a scroll with a poem, it would be very logical for them to gain the ability to recite or sing the poem. And so on.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
The problem I have had with crafting is you level so fast in every game now that it just isn't worth it to do much crafting.....Also every game either has better gear in raiding or in questing so its pointless.
I don't think the next generation of MMO's will cater to crafter's at all. I wish they would at least stop giving epic gear drops. My idea is that they would make the drops rare crafting mats that can be taken to crafter's to craft the epic gear. Crafter's have no purpose in todays MMO's. My idea would give us purpose again.
What MMORPGs are you playing?
The most recent MMORPG I've put time into (ESO) I've worn like 80% crafted gear since level 8, as it's superior to the looted gear (which makes up the remaining 20%.)
WOW crafting wasn't quite as important while leveling (though still valuable), but has consistently provided some of the best early upgrades to grab as you transition into raiding.
If you want MMORPGs where crafting is important, they're out there. I don't see where you're getting your opinion from at all.
You obviously haven't played in a game with a REAL crafting system. And, most of the current games with good crafting systems are dead or dying. Along with great crafting, I also feel a healthy population is a must to make the crafting worth doing.
And, even though ESO has a decent crafting system, it's still sub par compared to past MMO's.
You obviously haven't played in a game with a REAL crafting system. And, most of the current games with good crafting systems are dead or dying. Along with great crafting, I also feel a healthy population is a must to make the crafting worth doing.
And, even though ESO has a decent crafting system, it's still sub par compared to past MMO's.
I stand by my original comment.
I've played lots of games with real crafting systems (in fact, gosh, every game with a crafting system I've played was a real crafting system.)
But that doesn't address my point: you implied crafting lacked purpose; I pointed out that it clearly has purpose in many games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You obviously haven't played in a game with a REAL crafting system. And, most of the current games with good crafting systems are dead or dying. Along with great crafting, I also feel a healthy population is a must to make the crafting worth doing.
And, even though ESO has a decent crafting system, it's still sub par compared to past MMO's.
I stand by my original comment.
I've played lots of games with real crafting systems (in fact, gosh, every game with a crafting system I've played was a real crafting system.)
But that doesn't address my point: you implied crafting lacked purpose; I pointed out that it clearly has purpose in many games.
Yea except the problem with your argument, Axe, is that in the games you mentioned you don't "need" the crafted stuff. You can just wait until better looted stuff comes along. As long as the looted stuff is available, crafting has very little meaning in any game.
I will stand buy Thorkunes statement as well.
I think crafting is simply an afterthought in many of those games. Combat and loot drops are given priority in practically all game design.
Why? Because crafting in a game is considered niche IMO.
Feel free to disagree, but I feel, pretty much everyone that doesn't take crafting seriously in a game will disagree Thorkunes statement.
But Iif you are going to have a game with end game raiding for loot and no item decay, then crafting is basically useless.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
You obviously haven't played in a game with a REAL crafting system. And, most of the current games with good crafting systems are dead or dying. Along with great crafting, I also feel a healthy population is a must to make the crafting worth doing.
And, even though ESO has a decent crafting system, it's still sub par compared to past MMO's.
I stand by my original comment.
I've played lots of games with real crafting systems (in fact, gosh, every game with a crafting system I've played was a real crafting system.)
But that doesn't address my point: you implied crafting lacked purpose; I pointed out that it clearly has purpose in many games.
If most of the people who like crafting in games reference old games like SWG and Vanguard then it clearly doesn't.
Yea except the problem with your argument, Axe, is that in the games you mentioned you don't "need" the crafted stuff. You can just wait until better looted stuff comes along. As long as the looted stuff is available, crafting has very little meaning in any game.
I will stand buy Thorkunes statement as well.
I think crafting is simply an afterthought in many of those games. Combat and loot drops are given priority in practically all game design.
Why? Because crafting in a game is considered niche IMO.
Feel free to disagree, but I feel, pretty much everyone that doesn't take crafting seriously in a game will disagree Thorkunes statement.
But Iif you are going to have a game with end game raiding for loot and no item decay, then crafting is basically useless.
Crafting has meaning. Strong meaning. It has value as one of the fastest ways to get a strong gear upgrade.
It's up to you guys if you want to ignore that value.
Just don't be surprised when hardly any games, gamers, or developers agree with the entitlement attitude that crafting should be literally the only source for gear.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You obviously haven't played in a game with a REAL crafting system. And, most of the current games with good crafting systems are dead or dying. Along with great crafting, I also feel a healthy population is a must to make the crafting worth doing.
And, even though ESO has a decent crafting system, it's still sub par compared to past MMO's.
I stand by my original comment.
I've played lots of games with real crafting systems (in fact, gosh, every game with a crafting system I've played was a real crafting system.)
But that doesn't address my point: you implied crafting lacked purpose; I pointed out that it clearly has purpose in many games.
Yea except the problem with your argument, Axe, is that in the games you mentioned you don't "need" the crafted stuff. You can just wait until better looted stuff comes along. As long as the looted stuff is available, crafting has very little meaning in any game.
I will stand buy Thorkunes statement as well.
I think crafting is simply an afterthought in many of those games. Combat and loot drops are given priority in practically all game design.
Why? Because crafting in a game is considered niche IMO.
Feel free to disagree, but I feel, pretty much everyone that doesn't take crafting seriously in a game will disagree Thorkunes statement.
But Iif you are going to have a game with end game raiding for loot and no item decay, then crafting is basically useless.
For any game to have really meaningful crafting, it has to be that the only equipment available in game, is that crafted by the players themselves, if you can just loot something better than crafted, whether its from a random mob drop or a raid boss drop, then it renders crafting inconsequential, and just means those mobs etc, that drop the best equipment will be permacamped by players.
Basically if it's possible to have loot drops, from whatever source, that drop equipment, then crafting by default, is rendered inconsequential. Far better to have loot drops be rare materials that can be used in crafting, and none of this RNG rubbish that plagues pay to win games when it comes to equipment crafting, but have stats in equipment be directly related to the components used in their construction, that would be more meaningful crafting.
Crafting systems make the most sense when everything is crafted, like in Ryzom. No NPC drops anything except crafting mats. All armor, weapons, etc, are made by crafters. And then put the best crafting mats into a PvP zone, so that your guild has to protect the harvesters from other players, and everybody wants those mats to make the best items.
If NPC's can drop equal items to crafters, then the crafting game is superfluous.
How about the entitlement attitude that raiding should be literally the only source of (good) gear??
Good news: that's just a straw man!
I don't have that attitude, and have frequently argued for a balance, with raid-dropped recipes offering competitive crafting alternatives which go right up til the end of gear progression.
(The reason it has to be raid-dropped is that challenge needs to come from someplace and typical crafting systems don't involve any challenge; but if the recipes and mats are from raids, then the system piggy-backs on the difficulty of the raids of each tier. In a theoretical game where crafting required the same player skill as raiding, no such piggy-backing would be required, naturally.)
So the only form of entitlement I'm arguing for is that player skill should matter. Otherwise if you have two equal pieces of gear where one requires an enormously difficult raid encounter and the second requires clicking a "CRAFT NOW" button or spending some money on the AH, obviously everyone will choose the second system because it doesn't require effort.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
How about the entitlement attitude that raiding should be literally the only source of (good) gear??
Good news: that's just a straw man!
I don't have that attitude, and have frequently argued for a balance, with raid-dropped recipes offering competitive crafting alternatives which go right up til the end of gear progression.
(The reason it has to be raid-dropped is that challenge needs to come from someplace and typical crafting systems don't involve any challenge; but if the recipes and mats are from raids, then the system piggy-backs on the difficulty of the raids of each tier. In a theoretical game where crafting required the same player skill as raiding, no such piggy-backing would be required, naturally.)
So the only form of entitlement I'm arguing for is that player skill should matter. Otherwise if you have two equal pieces of gear where one requires an enormously difficult raid encounter and the second requires clicking a "CRAFT NOW" button or spending some money on the AH, obviously everyone will choose the second system because it doesn't require effort.
Player skill, sure, but raiding is really the wrong skill to attach crafting to. The fact that in many games crafting doesn't require skill-based mini-game play is the real problem.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Player skill, sure, but raiding is really the wrong skill to attach crafting to. The fact that in many games crafting doesn't require skill-based mini-game play is the real problem.
Well that's just because games tend to focus on doing one thing well, rather than many things poorly. Why is that system combat? It's a combination of two related things, (a) there's near-universal interest in that type of gameplay and also (b) it's what the last ~35 years of RPGs have focused on (mostly because of (a).)
Granted even a side minigame can still be made challenging and require skill, so I think there is potential in that direction. One or two MMORPGs have put a little skill into it (though I never got deep enough into EQ2 or FFXIV crafting to reach a point where I considered them hard.)
But you can see how unless a game specifically tries to achieve those goals, attaching the skill requirement to raiding is the right decision.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But you can see how unless a game specifically tries to achieve those goals, attaching the skill requirement to raiding is the right decision.
Ehh... Even then, raiding is just something a lot of crafters wouldn't want to do at all. Crafting is an inherently solo activity (with the exception of games where players have to work together to build buildings) while raiding is the most heavily multiplayer activity in many MMOs.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Player skill, sure, but raiding is really the wrong skill to attach crafting to. The fact that in many games crafting doesn't require skill-based mini-game play is the real problem.
@sunandshadow ; Can you explain 'mini-game' play as used in context?
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
SWG had the best crafting system of any of them. I liked EQ2 mostly because you are at least a bit involved with it. I haven't encountered any other game with good crafting and I've played alot of games. Its one of my major complaints about all the new ones being released. At least in SWG, you could spend a whole class as a crafter, it was very involving, and fun. No other game has done that.
Comments
Dungeons are out of this loop because the lore gets in the way of cross class collaboration. It's just combat good vs evil and the bad guys aren't interested in hoarding emojis, they have a treasure of powerful magical items that cater to the combat classes.
EQ2 was a nice system although you did have to pay your dues with the early nonsense. That was a good thing in a way as it had a way of feathering out the insincere. I really loved the ways you could market your wares in EQ2 and how it tied into housing. As a carpenter I made some decent coin making items for housing.
FFXIV has some depth to it , I just had this underlying feeling that it wasn't worth all the effort although I could certainly be wrong there.
Hmmm WOW has been mentioned a few times as a shallow example. In Vanilla some of the better crafted gear was sought after. There was also a very robust economy for all sorts of crafting materials and finished goods. I made fortunes over time selling herbs and crafted shirts on RP servers. They really made a bad turn with WOD as far as crafting is concerned taking an already weak system and pounding it into oblivion.
I would have to vote EQ2 as my personal favorite because of it's fun factor...........followed very closely by Vanguard.
I think that having crafters be able to craft the uber gear from Boss dropped superior components is great, but I also like that to be a varying scale so that it isn't just easily farmed for the part. I wouldnt want bound items, just very rare so that they are actually worth something.
Finally i like the idea of crafting architecture and replacing the big dead spaces with player houses. Density can be controlled by many easily implemented systems, and ruins make ideal places for mobs to spawn. Keep ruin there and it spawns mobs, get rid of it and you have clean space. Give achievements and stuff for players cleaning up the landscape. easy
Give each crafting profession one slot where they make the best stuff and not just at the top end but all the way up e.g.
- tailors make the best cloaks
- leather workers make the best belts
- smiths make the best x (or give armor buffs)
which you choose depends on how many crafting professions you have and how many gear slots
also to make it more interesting they can make a variety of those items e.g. a leather worker can make
- strength belts
- speed belts
- poison resistance belts
- magic resistance belts
etc
based on finding the recipes and using different materials e.g. bear for strength, wolf for speed, snakes for poison resistance etc
The most recent MMORPG I've put time into (ESO) I've worn like 80% crafted gear since level 8, as it's superior to the looted gear (which makes up the remaining 20%.)
WOW crafting wasn't quite as important while leveling (though still valuable), but has consistently provided some of the best early upgrades to grab as you transition into raiding.
If you want MMORPGs where crafting is important, they're out there. I don't see where you're getting your opinion from at all.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But to be honest is crafting one of the aspect of MMOs that have evolved least since it got introduced and while it isn't the number one type of gameplay it is still rather popular so lets hope someone actually takes it to the next level soon. A few games like SWG did try it but they never really got someone following up and improving on them.
In a time few games stick out it would be nice with some additional types of endgame gameplay besides raids, PvP and dungeons. Crafting is one of the things that could be improved and help the games be more interesting long term.
I think the last western AAA MMO/CORPG without crafting was Guildwars, we might get a few more like that but I doubt it will be removed as a standard feature anytimes soon.
This has got to be one of the best in a nutshell takes on different crafting systems I have seen. If I used Likes you would have got an awesome.
And, even though ESO has a decent crafting system, it's still sub par compared to past MMO's.
I stand by my original comment.
But that doesn't address my point: you implied crafting lacked purpose; I pointed out that it clearly has purpose in many games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I will stand buy Thorkunes statement as well.
I think crafting is simply an afterthought in many of those games. Combat and loot drops are given priority in practically all game design.
Why? Because crafting in a game is considered niche IMO.
Feel free to disagree, but I feel, pretty much everyone that doesn't take crafting seriously in a game will disagree Thorkunes statement.
But Iif you are going to have a game with end game raiding for loot and no item decay, then crafting is basically useless.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
If most of the people who like crafting in games reference old games like SWG and Vanguard then it clearly doesn't.
It's up to you guys if you want to ignore that value.
Just don't be surprised when hardly any games, gamers, or developers agree with the entitlement attitude that crafting should be literally the only source for gear.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Basically if it's possible to have loot drops, from whatever source, that drop equipment, then crafting by default, is rendered inconsequential.
Far better to have loot drops be rare materials that can be used in crafting, and none of this RNG rubbish that plagues pay to win games when it comes to equipment crafting, but have stats in equipment be directly related to the components used in their construction, that would be more meaningful crafting.
If NPC's can drop equal items to crafters, then the crafting game is superfluous.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
I don't have that attitude, and have frequently argued for a balance, with raid-dropped recipes offering competitive crafting alternatives which go right up til the end of gear progression.
(The reason it has to be raid-dropped is that challenge needs to come from someplace and typical crafting systems don't involve any challenge; but if the recipes and mats are from raids, then the system piggy-backs on the difficulty of the raids of each tier. In a theoretical game where crafting required the same player skill as raiding, no such piggy-backing would be required, naturally.)
So the only form of entitlement I'm arguing for is that player skill should matter. Otherwise if you have two equal pieces of gear where one requires an enormously difficult raid encounter and the second requires clicking a "CRAFT NOW" button or spending some money on the AH, obviously everyone will choose the second system because it doesn't require effort.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Granted even a side minigame can still be made challenging and require skill, so I think there is potential in that direction. One or two MMORPGs have put a little skill into it (though I never got deep enough into EQ2 or FFXIV crafting to reach a point where I considered them hard.)
But you can see how unless a game specifically tries to achieve those goals, attaching the skill requirement to raiding is the right decision.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
@sunandshadow ; Can you explain 'mini-game' play as used in context?