I always found it amusing that oldschool players criticized the huge new wave of players as "not true MMORPG players" when the genre finally realized it needed to provide traditional videogame RPG mechanics to do well. These newer players were the same sort who enjoyed previous videogame RPGs, and MMORPGs eventually became the MMO versions of those earlier RPGs, and yet the oldschool players ridiculously implied they weren't really MMORPG fans.
It's even more amusing that now some of those oldschool players are realizing videogame RPGs weren't what they wanted. All along it was they who weren't "true" MMORPG players. They wanted survival games or virtual world games, but not RPGs.
I've felt for a long time now, judging by many posts it sounds like many of these folks want sims, not RPGs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I always found it amusing certain forum posters take every opportunity to bash other players and criticize them in much the same way their targets criticize a genre, all the while belittling and disregarding that different genre elements are not exclusive features and that many such gamers wishing for something else doesn't necessarily mean abandoning features of the other RPG driven MMOs that they enjoyed.
It's basically like taking the no true scotsman argument to the second level. Weirdly ironic.
As for this thread's topic. The features OP is mentioning are essentially the core features of driving a player-run community. Aspects that let them to some degree feel like they have a say and an impact in the world they are interacting in. More or less, it's an affirmation of presence and value.
This sort of is a feature of older MMOs in that they had more direct community interaction previously. As in, the notion of developer to player interaction and DM/GM run content was a common element enabling players to experience a much more connected part of gameplay. A feature that is often forgotten by others who only observe the mechanical aspects of a title, but went a long way in creating a level of custom play and experience that you aren't going to find feasible to implement any more.
Sandbox features, that's it's own thing for the most part and is a component of gameplay of it's own. Compatible with other types of games and even RPGs, but ultimately it's a feature that is conceptually simple with a massive budget and many balance issues behind it. Smaller scale games tackling it is pretty much what is/was necessary as you were not going to see a project scale as big as an MMO ever reach success unless the concept itself was proven first. Kind of a peak only finally being seen as possibly reachable.
Games like EQ:N are pretty much exemplary of this. Concerns over the title aside, we can see where this title draws from the elements driving player involvement and some "old school" sensibilities, but integrating it with the evolution of the genre and retaining an rpg structure to give the world context and form.
Or for another example Revival, which is splitting the concept less on the sandbox side, but is looking at offering a system to provide that defunct DM role from older MMOs to allow custom content and a stronger community controlled and influenced experience.
Not endorsing either of these in specific, just pointing out it's an example of the direction we can see things trying to take shape in.
EDIT: To give a side point or summary...
The features of early games were in some regards too under-developed, and the ability to push them into a state where they could be considered feature complete was too far for the time.
Ultimately, that means other more time-tested styles of gameplay were favored, drawing back the unique elements that you might have seen early into a semi-idle state of development.
Same thing essentially as voxel driven engines and the subsequent gameplay experienced from that, the concepts had to be taken back to a small scale where the concepts could be refined, changed, and evolved until they were in a state that you could start integrating them into actual titles again, this is where we see the grown of both survival and sandbox games and the underlying mechanics of them.
What this means for some, is that the notion of what those old game were promising, isn't a lost cause, but you are going to be waiting a bit longer, as it's only now we're seeing the results of this little hiatus turning into the release of such games again.
While you might not find exactly what you want in titles like EQ:N or Revival, the capacity for MMOs to start cropping up with these features is coming forth.
It's an interestingly cyclical aspect of game development in general.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I always found it amusing that oldschool players criticized the huge new wave of players as "not true MMORPG players" when the genre finally realized it needed to provide traditional videogame RPG mechanics to do well. These newer players were the same sort who enjoyed previous videogame RPGs, and MMORPGs eventually became the MMO versions of those earlier RPGs, and yet the oldschool players ridiculously implied they weren't really MMORPG fans.
It's even more amusing that now some of those oldschool players are realizing videogame RPGs weren't what they wanted. All along it was they who weren't "true" MMORPG players. They wanted survival games or virtual world games, but not RPGs.
what a worthless blanket you have thrown full of moth holes ...
I've felt for a long time now, judging by many posts it sounds like many of these folks want sims, not RPGs.
Similarly, why do we _never_ hear sandboxes referred to as MMOSIMs when they totally are?
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
I always found it amusing that oldschool players criticized the huge new wave of players as "not true MMORPG players" when the genre finally realized it needed to provide traditional videogame RPG mechanics to do well. These newer players were the same sort who enjoyed previous videogame RPGs, and MMORPGs eventually became the MMO versions of those earlier RPGs, and yet the oldschool players ridiculously implied they weren't really MMORPG fans.
It's even more amusing that now some of those oldschool players are realizing videogame RPGs weren't what they wanted. All along it was they who weren't "true" MMORPG players. They wanted survival games or virtual world games, but not RPGs.
I am very concerned that this post was flagged. There is absolutely nothing offensive in it and I suspect it was flagged only as a kind of childish "payback" for some perceived slight in other threads.
Another forum member (Slapshot I think) has brought up this issue of abusing the flag function and imo this is a prime example of what he was talking about. Maybe I am overreacting, but I just find it a very underhanded and nasty thing to do.
what a worthless blanket you have thrown full of moth holes ...
If you could be specific about your misunderstanding, we could get to the bottom of it.
Are you under the impression that some oldschool players didn't question the legitimacy of newer players?
Did you play RPGs before MMORPGs, or were you unaware that RPGs had the same core pillars (progression, story, combat) for ~35 years of videogame RPGs, and later MMORPGs eventually shifted back towards that proven style?
Do you think that players who profess to prefer survival sims are actually truer RPG players?
Do you think that players who frequently make threads asking for survival sims and virtual worlds are actually truer RPG players?
Or were you just being ironic?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I uninstalled all MMO games. Just totally lost interest. To be honest I don't even know why I bother coming here anymore.
I did the same thing. I also wonder why i still post here. Maybe its the hope of hearing about something i would get behind and be hyped about. Its nice to dream. The genre is stuck in a rut.
ARK is great. A lot of the others are underwhelming... and the majority of the many, many zombie based ones just look like cheap, half-arsed Walking Dead fandom- watching a soap opera with zombies is tedious enough, sod playing one.
7 Days to Die is still my favourite with Savage Lands being up there. ARK was fun - I also played the free week-end on a PVE server and will likely pick it up the next time it is on sale.
I uninstalled all MMO games. Just totally lost interest. To be honest I don't even know why I bother coming here anymore.
Same here I've all but given up on MMO's thinking maybe I was just too old been playing since 99 with Everquest but I find myself always stopping by here to see if maybe someone helps me capture that nostalgia again. But just for the Heck of it I played the ARK free weekend and had an amazing time with my two oldest sons on a PVE server definitely a fun MMO worth taking a look at that gives you a bit of that adventuring nostalgia back. Now if it would just go on sale already
Has anyone played Reign of Kings? The setting and combat style looks good.
Also for those of you who have played Savage Lands- I keep reading that you constantly have to grind for food which put me off picking it up. For example in Ark food was important, but it didn't feel like I was grinding for it; getting food was just a logical and somewhat fun part of the day. So if you have played both do you think it is similarly balanced or are the steam reviews accurate in saying its a pretty annoying grind?
I think a lot of the posters in here gave up already lol. Seems easier to forum pvp nowadays I must admit.
I wanted to "LoL" this as in hey that was quite a funny comment, made me chuckle, but I get the feeling LoL is seen more as "what a stupid comment", so I had to settle for an "awesome".
They are all just so ugly and unfinished. I like that games are headed that direction, but I am waiting for a real production quality survival/sandbox mmo. H1Z1 came close, but just so bored of the same ugly midwestern united states map and bleak atmosphere. Ark was ok, I found it too spammy in all regards though. Hit trees 1000x times, stab dino 100x till dead, pick 1000x berries, eat 1000x berries. Tame dino, 100 hours left. Log back in after a hard days work, base is gone and everything destroyed looted except your trusty cooking pot.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
@Deivos I can agree that the industry and even genres operate in cycles but do you really think there is going to be a return in static quest focused MMORPG content? In my mind, that will remain to be best implemented in single player or limited multiplayer game. The growing expense of making game content will probably push massive games like MMOs to primarily go the systematic or dynamic delivery method instead of unique handcrafted quest content.
@Deivos I can agree that the industry and even genres operate in cycles but do you really think there is going to be a return in static quest focused MMORPG content? In my mind, that will remain to be best implemented in single player or limited multiplayer game. The growing expense of making game content will probably push massive games like MMOs to primarily go the systematic or dynamic delivery method instead of unique handcrafted quest content.
That was rather my implication, that with titles like EQ:N and Revival on the horizon, we're seeing the resurgence of other elements that were lost or never saw fruition.
Dynamic questing is an example of this, as there was a point when game masters were an active and participatory part of the game world in titles like Ultima, Asheron's Call, and even Everquest. They guided quests, organized events, and interacted with the community rather directly as a component of the game's world and it's play.
Problem was, it's not an easily supported task, especially if a server community measures in the thousands and your GMs measure in the dozens.
Now however, we see a slow resurgence of these game mechanics in the form of AI that tracks and implements dynamic events, and Smaller scale titles trying to reintroduce the concept of GM/DMs in some manner.
Static quests... can't really make a comeback, as they never went away. For the most part they were a solution that came out of the familiarity of their use in smaller scale titles and the compatibility issues they've had in in the MMO genre has largely been tolerated out of a lack of alternatives.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You should try Project Gorgon. It's only in alpha stage atm, but you can play for free. It has an open world, skill based leveling system with an emphasis on exploration and discovery. You gain skill in scores of areas including cheese making, butchery, even dying...gives you skill in dying ( you gain some health if you die a lot ). All the skills are tied into each other so it may help you fight if you learn to cook or write..ect.
Just don't expect great graphics or animations since its still alpha and over a year away from launch.
Hurry though, because free to play ends soon, probably in a week or so.
I uninstalled all MMO games. Just totally lost interest. To be honest I don't even know why I bother coming here anymore.
I did the same thing. I also wonder why i still post here. Maybe its the hope of hearing about something i would get behind and be hyped about. Its nice to dream. The genre is stuck in a rut.
Same thing. Actually its been going for years. But now its worst its ever been.
Contrary to appearances, Revival is not a typical MMORPG (ala WoW or
Everquest.) It is instead more accurate to describe Revival as an
interactive persistent experience. What we are creating in Revival is
much more than a game. It is, in fact, more like an ongoing drama where
each and every player has an opportunity to enjoy a starring role.
Revival is our effort to revive the promise of the virtual world, and
bring back a truly open-world sandbox role-playing experience.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I'd be more interested in survival games if they were more about survival against the environment and less about the greatest danger being your fellow players.
They are all just so ugly and unfinished. I like that games are headed that direction, but I am waiting for a real production quality survival/sandbox mmo. H1Z1 came close, but just so bored of the same ugly midwestern united states map and bleak atmosphere. Ark was ok, I found it too spammy in all regards though. Hit trees 1000x times, stab dino 100x till dead, pick 1000x berries, eat 1000x berries. Tame dino, 100 hours left. Log back in after a hard days work, base is gone and everything destroyed looted except your trusty cooking pot.
I think ARK is quite pretty, but essentially this is similar to how I see these games.
Its like we are looking at the start of an evolution in online gaming, a style that enables an incredibly open and free play experience, where death really matters, and player actions have a definite impact on the game world, but some key element is missing.
Comments
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
It's basically like taking the no true scotsman argument to the second level. Weirdly ironic.
As for this thread's topic. The features OP is mentioning are essentially the core features of driving a player-run community. Aspects that let them to some degree feel like they have a say and an impact in the world they are interacting in. More or less, it's an affirmation of presence and value.
This sort of is a feature of older MMOs in that they had more direct community interaction previously. As in, the notion of developer to player interaction and DM/GM run content was a common element enabling players to experience a much more connected part of gameplay. A feature that is often forgotten by others who only observe the mechanical aspects of a title, but went a long way in creating a level of custom play and experience that you aren't going to find feasible to implement any more.
Sandbox features, that's it's own thing for the most part and is a component of gameplay of it's own. Compatible with other types of games and even RPGs, but ultimately it's a feature that is conceptually simple with a massive budget and many balance issues behind it. Smaller scale games tackling it is pretty much what is/was necessary as you were not going to see a project scale as big as an MMO ever reach success unless the concept itself was proven first. Kind of a peak only finally being seen as possibly reachable.
Games like EQ:N are pretty much exemplary of this. Concerns over the title aside, we can see where this title draws from the elements driving player involvement and some "old school" sensibilities, but integrating it with the evolution of the genre and retaining an rpg structure to give the world context and form.
Or for another example Revival, which is splitting the concept less on the sandbox side, but is looking at offering a system to provide that defunct DM role from older MMOs to allow custom content and a stronger community controlled and influenced experience.
Not endorsing either of these in specific, just pointing out it's an example of the direction we can see things trying to take shape in.
EDIT: To give a side point or summary...
The features of early games were in some regards too under-developed, and the ability to push them into a state where they could be considered feature complete was too far for the time.
Ultimately, that means other more time-tested styles of gameplay were favored, drawing back the unique elements that you might have seen early into a semi-idle state of development.
Same thing essentially as voxel driven engines and the subsequent gameplay experienced from that, the concepts had to be taken back to a small scale where the concepts could be refined, changed, and evolved until they were in a state that you could start integrating them into actual titles again, this is where we see the grown of both survival and sandbox games and the underlying mechanics of them.
What this means for some, is that the notion of what those old game were promising, isn't a lost cause, but you are going to be waiting a bit longer, as it's only now we're seeing the results of this little hiatus turning into the release of such games again.
While you might not find exactly what you want in titles like EQ:N or Revival, the capacity for MMOs to start cropping up with these features is coming forth.
It's an interestingly cyclical aspect of game development in general.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Another forum member (Slapshot I think) has brought up this issue of abusing the flag function and imo this is a prime example of what he was talking about. Maybe I am overreacting, but I just find it a very underhanded and nasty thing to do.
- Are you under the impression that some oldschool players didn't question the legitimacy of newer players?
- Did you play RPGs before MMORPGs, or were you unaware that RPGs had the same core pillars (progression, story, combat) for ~35 years of videogame RPGs, and later MMORPGs eventually shifted back towards that proven style?
- Do you think that players who profess to prefer survival sims are actually truer RPG players?
- Do you think that players who frequently make threads asking for survival sims and virtual worlds are actually truer RPG players?
Or were you just being ironic?"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Same here I've all but given up on MMO's thinking maybe I was just too old been playing since 99 with Everquest but I find myself always stopping by here to see if maybe someone helps me capture that nostalgia again. But just for the Heck of it I played the ARK free weekend and had an amazing time with my two oldest sons on a PVE server definitely a fun MMO worth taking a look at that gives you a bit of that adventuring nostalgia back. Now if it would just go on sale already
Also for those of you who have played Savage Lands- I keep reading that you constantly have to grind for food which put me off picking it up. For example in Ark food was important, but it didn't feel like I was grinding for it; getting food was just a logical and somewhat fun part of the day. So if you have played both do you think it is similarly balanced or are the steam reviews accurate in saying its a pretty annoying grind?
So confusing.....
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Dynamic questing is an example of this, as there was a point when game masters were an active and participatory part of the game world in titles like Ultima, Asheron's Call, and even Everquest. They guided quests, organized events, and interacted with the community rather directly as a component of the game's world and it's play.
Problem was, it's not an easily supported task, especially if a server community measures in the thousands and your GMs measure in the dozens.
Now however, we see a slow resurgence of these game mechanics in the form of AI that tracks and implements dynamic events, and Smaller scale titles trying to reintroduce the concept of GM/DMs in some manner.
Static quests... can't really make a comeback, as they never went away. For the most part they were a solution that came out of the familiarity of their use in smaller scale titles and the compatibility issues they've had in in the MMO genre has largely been tolerated out of a lack of alternatives.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Op
You should try Project Gorgon. It's only in alpha stage atm, but you can play for free. It has an open world, skill based leveling system with an emphasis on exploration and discovery. You gain skill in scores of areas including cheese making, butchery, even dying...gives you skill in dying ( you gain some health if you die a lot ). All the skills are tied into each other so it may help you fight if you learn to cook or write..ect.
Just don't expect great graphics or animations since its still alpha and over a year away from launch.
Hurry though, because free to play ends soon, probably in a week or so.
Contrary to appearances, Revival is not a typical MMORPG (ala WoW or Everquest.) It is instead more accurate to describe Revival as an interactive persistent experience. What we are creating in Revival is much more than a game. It is, in fact, more like an ongoing drama where each and every player has an opportunity to enjoy a starring role. Revival is our effort to revive the promise of the virtual world, and bring back a truly open-world sandbox role-playing experience.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I think ARK is quite pretty, but essentially this is similar to how I see these games.
Its like we are looking at the start of an evolution in online gaming, a style that enables an incredibly open and free play experience, where death really matters, and player actions have a definite impact on the game world, but some key element is missing.