The main problem is most griefing is exploitation of game mechanics. And supported by game mechanics. Archeage for example has blockades and the devs call it pvp. Yet it happens in a non-pvp zone and there is no pvp counterpart to stop it. Mortal Online had a guild build a wall to stop players from going to a certain area. I was pissed because you couldn't climb over the wall and you couldn't simply burn the wall down. You had to build a siege engine. Which required a few players. Sandbox games if they are to allow sandbox griefing then they need to make sure there is a sandbox solution. That is where most of them FAIL miserably.
Agreed, Devs typically take a reactive approach rather than a proactive approach, examples being take this or that away, try to send messages with bans, etc.. rather than as you said, build ways for players to defend themselves against it. I do have to wonder if that's because they figure no matter what they do, something is going to be exploited if it has any freedom in usage. As that's what it really boils down to.. IF you allow players to manipulate the world they will find an underhanded use for it. So that just becomes a cat and mouse game. It's easier to just remove the freedom and add static usage.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In my opinion/experience, many gamers avoid games that are known for their griefers. Particularly games that are PvP centric and have some sort of consequences for dying. Because of this, these games may suffer from low populations and that can lead to a downward spiral for the success/longevity of the game.
I made the poll anonymous.
The more interesting question to me, is why devs care to make those games in the first place if the market is so small.
I've done this a lot in Lineage 2. When they started F2P and moved everyone to new Talking Island... a lot of gankers/griefers started hanging out outside the gates. Well, paying forward the help I received as a new player (way back in the early Chronicles), I went over there on my high level character and started dealing with them. As they PK'd people, a number would smack talk their targets, etc; doing the whole "I'm a badass 'cause you're 20 levels lower than me and I just dropped you" routine. Generally being bratty, obnoxiously sore winners, as most griefers/gankers are.
So, to keep things in balance, I quietly would go up and PK them... at least once. Twice if they kept it up. Well...
You should have seen the torrent of rage and threats coming my way lol. I was called a "n00b", I was told I suck because I needed a higher level character to beat them (irony!), and I was threatened with GM reports for - get this - "preventing them from playing the game". Of course, nothing ever came of those reports. Saw a couple of them again later, doing the same thing... Ganking new players, and then gloating about it. Again I dropped 'em.. again they raged and hurled threats and insults.
Ultimately they'd log out (aka 'rage quit'), and newer players would be able to play and learn the game in relative peace, at least for a little while.
This is why, when I see self-proclaimed "hardcore" PvPers or PK'ers talking tough on forums like these, calling others "carebears", talking about "drinking others' tears", and all this other self-aggrandizing BS they spew, I just have to shake my head. I know, with pretty high certainty, that if I were to meet them in-game, and did the same to them that they bragged over doing to others, they'd be instantly reduced to the very whining "carebears" they mock.
Sad, sad people.
Yeah, I used to do the same thing. Or even, taking out people who took me out while I was grinding. Boy would they cry.
These are the people who are a blight on any game. I remember being in a war with another clan and there was no smack talking or insults, just a good fight. We won one battle and i twas a blast. We got to talking with one of the enemy players and offered to rez him, which we did.
Why not? It's just a game and should just be a game. Someone passed by and saw what we were doing and was incensed. Called it carebear shit.
Some people have no perspective.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
When I was young and playing Ultima Oline griefers effected me a lot. I left the game to play EQ because of player killers.
Now that I am older I don't think I would have an issue with it as I don't care as much about dying and losing things. The main cause of anger in dying in UO was that it was a lot of time lost. I spend a lot of time gathering items that were stolen in a few seconds.
You could argue that griefers are what makes the game interesting. They are people who choose to play the bad guys. These pay guys aren't easily beaten scripted ones that are setup for you to win against. Most games have some form of killing. The killing is generally done to those considered bad guys. What is the game if you remove all the bad guys and everyone plays nice? I don't think there is much of a game there or at least it would need a new premise.
Griefing or bullying is a tool for the weak to self gratify because nobody else will.
While I would agree this is a double edged sword. When you say something like that you are pressuring (bullying) them into your way of thinking. Basically you are bullying them into not being bullies.
I only grief griefers. I loving going to say a level 10 areas with my top level char and kill the level 30 guy killing all the level 10s. I will do everything to make their game time a living hell.
As far as griefing is concerned, I generally use the definition on wikipedia: "A griefer is a player in a multiplayervideo game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
So ganking low leveled players wouldn't be classed as greifing in an Open World PvP game then, as it's part and parcel of OW PvP.
No...what you said is, imo playing the game as it is intended, ala Lineage 2. You knew going in your ass would get handed to you at some point so when it did, it was no big deal...well to me anyway. Other people's opinion might differ.
Same in WoW or any other game with PvP. I get that, I think most people get that.
Here is a griefing scenario I just recently encountered:
I have a quest to kill a certain mob, and a much much higher level toon is hanging around this mobs location. As I arrive, I pm; "Hey man you looking to kill this thing as well"?
No response.
So, it spawns, the higher level kills it and sits back down. I think; ok, my turn. Several minutes later it spawns again, before I can get an attack off, higher level kills it again. This goes on for awhile.
Finally I PM the higher level; Hey man I just need to kill it once for a quest, can you let me do that?
Finally a response; Oh, no I am just here to annoy people and I am glad to see it is working. I log and go work on my bike for a few.
That is griefing, he had no intent other than to make other people miserable, knowing full well he would have absolutely no repercussion coming his way. Classic bully/anti-social/sociopath behavior. This type of thing is what I am against.
TL/DR: PvP good, using mechanics only to annoy people bad.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Not sure if it was intentional but you have "I grief, but I don't agree with your premise" option posted twice. I also think you omitted one of the more obvious reasons most griefers grief, and that is ...
"I grief because I enjoy making other players miserable and ruining their fun."
No, I didn't notice it. Shoot, that's what I get for cutting and pasting.
So this is not an original poll? And you didn't give proper credit to the original. For shame.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I can't say I ever griefed people, I'll kill an opponent in a PvP game but I don't really hunt the same player or go to a noob zone to kill players who stands no chanse, just don't see the fun in it.
Of course if someone is griefing my friends and guildies I get over there and brutally waste them to teach them a lesson but I wouldn't call that griefing from my point of view.
As I see it combat where I can't loose is just boring and camping a spawn point or corpse is just a waste of my time. I PvP for the kick and I only get that kick when I take out someone very close to my powerlevel and preferably a bit over it.
A lot of the griefing problems comes from s#itty game mechanics, that makes a combat certain one way or another. And when people are sure they can't lose they starting to act this way, you see very little griefing in FPS games where the playing field is somewhat even.
I don't think MMO PvP really will hit off big time until we get games with better mechanics where most combat could go either way. Most MMO mechanics are made for PvE only and added the PvP as an afterthought and that just ain't good enough. A PvP games needs a far smaller powergap than a PvE game can have, preferably should a great player with a newly made toon just barely be able to beat someone that plays lousy but had the toon a long time, that would take away most of the griefing and bring in far more players into the fun PvP really is.
I remember when I played Mortal Online...There was a guy in the noob area that was just slaughtering everyone....Several even said "Hey i'm new can you please stop"....The player responded "I hope every single one of you quits"....Thats the mentality I see way too often in PVP FFA MMOs.....Its a real turn off and I have left many of those MMOs because of it.
Whenever I grief people it's usually just for fun and I don't do it for all that long. Sometimes you have to accept the fact that the game has a system in place that allows for this type of thing and get on with it. If you get mad easily and can't handle the people killing you over and over then maybe it isn't the type of game that you should be playing.
Any game that has pvp with a level or gear advantage is a waste of my time. Of course these games attract griefing and ganking because they do not necessarily require skill, they often only require a stat advantage.
I will stick to my multi-player FPS/ TPS games to scratch my PVP itch.
In my opinion/experience, many gamers avoid games that are known for their griefers. Particularly games that are PvP centric and have some sort of consequences for dying. Because of this, these games may suffer from low populations and that can lead to a downward spiral for the success/longevity of the game.
I made the poll anonymous.
The more interesting question to me, is why devs care to make those games in the first place if the market is so small.
Not true the market is huge and untapped by the MMORPG world. The pvp market is fairly equal if not more then the current pve market. Look at how many people are playing League of Legends, there are more people playing that game right now then all the mmorpgs combined. Mmorpg's just don't know how to make it alluring to the market. Probably because they allow griefing.
Whenever I grief people it's usually just for fun and I don't do it for all that long. Sometimes you have to accept the fact that the game has a system in place that allows for this type of thing and get on with it. If you get mad easily and can't handle the people killing you over and over then maybe it isn't the type of game that you should be playing.
I think the fact that the majority of these games fail, with the few remaining being nothing more than ghost towns, is a pretty obvious indication that people aren't playing these types of games. Got any more great advice for us?
If you get mad easily and can't handle the people killing you over and over then maybe it isn't the type of game that you should be playing.
Why would anyone want to 'handle' someone killing them over and over? Sticking around for that is flat out masochism, which is why most people don't. The leave, find something else to do. In a market that has no shortage of MMOs to chose from, that's pretty easy to do.
Kinda the whole point of the thread, I thought. Rampant griefing is self-defeating, and yet, astoundingly, its proponents seem to lack any grasp of how or why.
Back in the day on my WoW server there was a human rogue by the name of Punish. I remember checking my mail at the Crossroads and AMBUSH! stun-stab and.... dead. He killed me many many times but I wouldn't classify him as a griefer, he would stealth into the most unlikely area's, areas that you would think were safe and ambush you when you least expected it. He never camped you, it would be another day when you would meet his blade again.
He gave me many laughs and almost always brought a smile to my face. He was a griefer with class.
I would like that the first few times too, but if someone keeps repeating it, I suspect that they are just exploiting a weakness of that 'safe' area. Then it becomes annoying to me, in a similar way like when someone keeps repeating the same joke. But I understand the thrill you describe though. In my experience however MMO's are rarely designed in a way to prevent griefing by exploiting unintended mechanics. This is why I rarely play any FFA PVP MMO's anymore. For the thrill I just play shooters or other pure pvp games. They are usually better designed for pvp imo.
Open PvP game launches. People act like ****s, kill everyone on sight, and harass lower level players. People get fed up and leave the game. Less people to grief so the griefers leave the game too. Not enough people play the game to sustain it and it closes down. These ****s from earlier convince other devs to try the same thing so they have a new game to ruin. Repeat.
Wonder why the only open PvP games are small indie dev games or kickstarter games? Cause anyone can look at the last 10 years of MMOs and see this trend. Putting a ton of money into these games can't be profitable. Griefing is bad for the community of a game and bad for it's overall success. Survival games on low budgets are made for these ****s now.
I'm all for PvP in MMOs as long as there is a reason for it (factions). There is a difference between PvP and griefing though. There will never be a full immersive open PvP virtual world that doesn't suffer from the types of people it attracts and the difference between how people behave in games and how they behave in real life.
(Exceptions to this post are possibly EVE and Star Citizen)
Open PvP game launches. People act like ****s, kill everyone on sight, and harass lower level players. People get fed up and leave the game. Less people to grief so the griefers leave the game too. Not enough people play the game to sustain it and it closes down. These ****s from earlier convince other devs to try the same thing so they have a new game to ruin. Repeat.
Wonder why the only open PvP games are small indie dev games or kickstarter games? Cause anyone can look at the last 10 years of MMOs and see this trend. Putting a ton of money into these games can't be profitable. Griefing is bad for the community of a game and bad for it's overall success. Survival games on low budgets are made for these ****s now.
I'm all for PvP in MMOs as long as there is a reason for it (factions). There is a difference between PvP and griefing. There will never be a full immersive open PvP virtual world that doesn't suffer from the types of people it attracts and the difference between how people behave in games and how they behave in real life.
(Exceptions to this post are possibly EVE and Star Citizen)
How are eve and star citizen exceptions, stat citizen isn't even out yet, so you have no idea how that will be. As for eve, it is full of griefing, there is a mentally handicapped top guild that is all they do. Saying eve is a exception just negates your whole statement. As far as MMOS goes, EVE doesn't have that many players. I would say like 5000 tops, and that's being generous. Most of those people play like 5+ accounts at once, if not more, so that 30000 they say is on, is 100 percent a lie, if you are using it for how many people play. The people in eve get bored, and try to trick new players into all sorts of things, till those players quit. Eve is 100 percent not a exception. There are no exceptions, any open PVP game, with no rules fails, every time, compared to PVE MMOS, such as ESO, WOW, ext.
Eve, Arche age, Ulitma online fel, Mortal online, That robot game that copied eve, Dark fall, Uncharted waters online, and any other you can think of, pales in comparison to regular mmos. As far as them failing, as in making money, none of them really do, because they more than likely have some sort of pay 2 win cash shop, where one can dump 1000s into it and get a serious advantage. Even EVE, you can dump thousands in, and get mad cash, accounts ect. In fact eve is more p2w than arche age, at least in arche age all your getting is items, in eve if you were a serious whale, you could literally dominate every one with your Credit card, and its perfectly within the rules of eve. Then you got UO, which is the second worst, you can do the same thing in UO, buy unlimited gold, then buy accounts, and then buy unlimited items and dominate pvp, both games if you have higher end accounts your chances of winning go up a crap ton. Arche age, brings up the 3rd since I didn't see any in game way to buy accounts. But I am sure people go around it, and buy with cash, all the best weapons ect. At least with AA i dont see them saying its ok to do that.
That is why I think MMOs, and PVP is stupid. If you want pvp go with games with out cash shops, levels, ect, that make it so skill is the only thing involved. That is why MOBAs are better for pvp, because they have rules, and the griefers cant really do much, but type nasty things to other people. The best for pvp I think though, are Real Time strategy games, like act of aggression, Civs 5, sins of a solar empire, and that kind of game. You can't just buy a account in any of those, and think your gonna dominate the game. You have to know how to play, and get good at it, if you want to win. No paying 1000 bucks, and you get special units that are better than the rest.
Credit card wars though seem quite popular any more though, so what ever, to think it all started, cause in diablo 2 item and account shops made thousands, with EQ accounts selling for 2k plus, and UO castles selling for 2k plus. So, when people bitch about all this nonsense, there is no one to blame but, the vet mmoers, who dumped stupid amounts of money into virtual items, and all those items from 15 years ago, are totally worthless.
I usually never comment on things but, I believe the problem with griefing and PVP in general in some games is that the risk is never high enough for the offender. Sadly the victim of the offender gets punished more for losing than If the offender gets caught. Most of the time all I've seen in games is a silly pat on the wrist and let them go on their marry way. No lost of items like the victim no lost of nothing but a little time if even that. So the mentality is if I don't lose anything why stop why care? It's not my problem apparently. This mentality also increases the lovely amount of hacker activity as well due the frustration people get from these things.
I usually never comment on things but, I believe the problem with griefing and PVP in general in some games is that the risk is never high enough for the offender. Sadly the victim of the offender gets punished more for losing than If the offender gets caught. Most of the time all I've seen in games is a silly pat on the wrist and let them go on their marry way. No lost of items like the victim no lost of nothing but a little time if even that. So the mentality is if I don't lose anything why stop why care? It's not my problem apparently. This mentality also increases the lovely amount of hacker activity as well due the frustration people get from these things.
It's because the penalty is to appease the recipient it's not there to discourage a player from playing at all, which is what a harsh penalty does. It's essentially a lose lose situation, and says all one needs to say about the act of griefing, they want no risk in what they do, they want all risk to lay on those they harass. if they truly get penalized they leave.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Do I like to get ganked? No. I don't think anyone does.
But the more important issue, to me, is whether there is any game worth getting ganked for today. And I don't think there is, the way I see it.
I, personally, would not care very much in getting ganked from time to time, IF the roleplaying was good. IF the crafting was good. IF the lore and factions were good. IF the creativity was encouraged. IF I had the tools to play interesting characters. But since those sorts of things aren't encouraged, much less facilitated, by the games these days, I really don't see the point.
To those of you who think ganking is a dealbreaker, all I have to say is every argument that has been made against the PKers, and the things they like, has been made against me, and the things I like, and against you, and the things you like. They'll call us niche interests and an interests which juxtaposed to what everyone else finds fun. And this includes roleplaying, crafting and complex player economics, architecture, raids and so on.
So the way I see it, we can hate on PK all we want, but then who is going to care when people hate on your roleplay, or your raiding, or your minigames? We all have to stick together and support each other's play, if we are ever going to play anything more interesting than WoW ever again.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You guys have all lost your minds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PeeeeeeeeeeeeeVeeeeeeeeeePeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
These are the people who are a blight on any game. I remember being in a war with another clan and there was no smack talking or insults, just a good fight. We won one battle and i twas a blast. We got to talking with one of the enemy players and offered to rez him, which we did.
Why not? It's just a game and should just be a game. Someone passed by and saw what we were doing and was incensed. Called it carebear shit.
Some people have no perspective.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Now that I am older I don't think I would have an issue with it as I don't care as much about dying and losing things. The main cause of anger in dying in UO was that it was a lot of time lost. I spend a lot of time gathering items that were stolen in a few seconds.
You could argue that griefers are what makes the game interesting. They are people who choose to play the bad guys. These pay guys aren't easily beaten scripted ones that are setup for you to win against. Most games have some form of killing. The killing is generally done to those considered bad guys. What is the game if you remove all the bad guys and everyone plays nice? I don't think there is much of a game there or at least it would need a new premise.
Same in WoW or any other game with PvP. I get that, I think most people get that.
Here is a griefing scenario I just recently encountered:
I have a quest to kill a certain mob, and a much much higher level toon is hanging around this mobs location. As I arrive, I pm; "Hey man you looking to kill this thing as well"?
No response.
So, it spawns, the higher level kills it and sits back down. I think; ok, my turn. Several minutes later it spawns again, before I can get an attack off, higher level kills it again. This goes on for awhile.
Finally I PM the higher level; Hey man I just need to kill it once for a quest, can you let me do that?
Finally a response; Oh, no I am just here to annoy people and I am glad to see it is working. I log and go work on my bike for a few.
That is griefing, he had no intent other than to make other people miserable, knowing full well he would have absolutely no repercussion coming his way. Classic bully/anti-social/sociopath behavior. This type of thing is what I am against.
TL/DR: PvP good, using mechanics only to annoy people bad.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
So this is not an original poll? And you didn't give proper credit to the original. For shame.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Of course if someone is griefing my friends and guildies I get over there and brutally waste them to teach them a lesson but I wouldn't call that griefing from my point of view.
As I see it combat where I can't loose is just boring and camping a spawn point or corpse is just a waste of my time. I PvP for the kick and I only get that kick when I take out someone very close to my powerlevel and preferably a bit over it.
A lot of the griefing problems comes from s#itty game mechanics, that makes a combat certain one way or another. And when people are sure they can't lose they starting to act this way, you see very little griefing in FPS games where the playing field is somewhat even.
I don't think MMO PvP really will hit off big time until we get games with better mechanics where most combat could go either way. Most MMO mechanics are made for PvE only and added the PvP as an afterthought and that just ain't good enough. A PvP games needs a far smaller powergap than a PvE game can have, preferably should a great player with a newly made toon just barely be able to beat someone that plays lousy but had the toon a long time, that would take away most of the griefing and bring in far more players into the fun PvP really is.
I will stick to my multi-player FPS/ TPS games to scratch my PVP itch.
I think the fact that the majority of these games fail, with the few remaining being nothing more than ghost towns, is a pretty obvious indication that people aren't playing these types of games. Got any more great advice for us?
It's ok if you don't like mmorpg pvp. But let others enjoy what they like.
Kinda the whole point of the thread, I thought. Rampant griefing is self-defeating, and yet, astoundingly, its proponents seem to lack any grasp of how or why.
But I understand the thrill you describe though. In my experience however MMO's are rarely designed in a way to prevent griefing by exploiting unintended mechanics.
This is why I rarely play any FFA PVP MMO's anymore. For the thrill I just play shooters or other pure pvp games. They are usually better designed for pvp imo.
People act like ****s, kill everyone on sight, and harass lower level players.
People get fed up and leave the game. Less people to grief so the griefers leave the game too.
Not enough people play the game to sustain it and it closes down.
These ****s from earlier convince other devs to try the same thing so they have a new game to ruin.
Repeat.
Wonder why the only open PvP games are small indie dev games or kickstarter games? Cause anyone can look at the last 10 years of MMOs and see this trend. Putting a ton of money into these games can't be profitable. Griefing is bad for the community of a game and bad for it's overall success. Survival games on low budgets are made for these ****s now.
I'm all for PvP in MMOs as long as there is a reason for it (factions). There is a difference between PvP and griefing though. There will never be a full immersive open PvP virtual world that doesn't suffer from the types of people it attracts and the difference between how people behave in games and how they behave in real life.
(Exceptions to this post are possibly EVE and Star Citizen)
Eve, Arche age, Ulitma online fel, Mortal online, That robot game that copied eve, Dark fall, Uncharted waters online, and any other you can think of, pales in comparison to regular mmos. As far as them failing, as in making money, none of them really do, because they more than likely have some sort of pay 2 win cash shop, where one can dump 1000s into it and get a serious advantage. Even EVE, you can dump thousands in, and get mad cash, accounts ect. In fact eve is more p2w than arche age, at least in arche age all your getting is items, in eve if you were a serious whale, you could literally dominate every one with your Credit card, and its perfectly within the rules of eve. Then you got UO, which is the second worst, you can do the same thing in UO, buy unlimited gold, then buy accounts, and then buy unlimited items and dominate pvp, both games if you have higher end accounts your chances of winning go up a crap ton. Arche age, brings up the 3rd since I didn't see any in game way to buy accounts. But I am sure people go around it, and buy with cash, all the best weapons ect. At least with AA i dont see them saying its ok to do that.
That is why I think MMOs, and PVP is stupid. If you want pvp go with games with out cash shops, levels, ect, that make it so skill is the only thing involved. That is why MOBAs are better for pvp, because they have rules, and the griefers cant really do much, but type nasty things to other people. The best for pvp I think though, are Real Time strategy games, like act of aggression, Civs 5, sins of a solar empire, and that kind of game. You can't just buy a account in any of those, and think your gonna dominate the game. You have to know how to play, and get good at it, if you want to win. No paying 1000 bucks, and you get special units that are better than the rest.
Credit card wars though seem quite popular any more though, so what ever, to think it all started, cause in diablo 2 item and account shops made thousands, with EQ accounts selling for 2k plus, and UO castles selling for 2k plus. So, when people bitch about all this nonsense, there is no one to blame but, the vet mmoers, who dumped stupid amounts of money into virtual items, and all those items from 15 years ago, are totally worthless.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
But the more important issue, to me, is whether there is any game worth getting ganked for today. And I don't think there is, the way I see it.
I, personally, would not care very much in getting ganked from time to time, IF the roleplaying was good. IF the crafting was good. IF the lore and factions were good. IF the creativity was encouraged. IF I had the tools to play interesting characters. But since those sorts of things aren't encouraged, much less facilitated, by the games these days, I really don't see the point.
To those of you who think ganking is a dealbreaker, all I have to say is every argument that has been made against the PKers, and the things they like, has been made against me, and the things I like, and against you, and the things you like. They'll call us niche interests and an interests which juxtaposed to what everyone else finds fun. And this includes roleplaying, crafting and complex player economics, architecture, raids and so on.
So the way I see it, we can hate on PK all we want, but then who is going to care when people hate on your roleplay, or your raiding, or your minigames? We all have to stick together and support each other's play, if we are ever going to play anything more interesting than WoW ever again.
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"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE