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WildStar Dev Journals: Free-to-Play and You

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
edited September 2015 in News & Features Discussion

WildStar Dev Journals: Free-to-Play and You

Read the full story here

Greetings MMORPG.com readers! I’m Mike Donatelli, Product Director for Carbine Studios’ WildStar. We are less than a week away from a major moment in our game’s history as we’ll be switching over to a free-to-play business model on September 29. The decision to change business models was not a light one, and we put a lot of thought and debate into when, why and how we were going to do it.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


Post edited by SBFord on
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Comments

  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r Member UncommonPosts: 496
    edited September 2015
    I have high opinion of Carbine even tho I left the game because it was too grindy for me (hope f2p will change that). Pretty sure servers will be packed at launch and there will be many issues at start that you will need to iron out. The only thing that matters is how you will retain your customers. If you will go in the direction that gw2 has taken (microtransactions) there is nothing to worry about.
  • QUB3DQUB3D Member UncommonPosts: 8
    Pissed Off Pete - It doesn't matter what payment model the game has in place as the core things he loved about the game have now been changed with in just the last few weeks, also issues he's complained about prior are still around. He realizes he will probably never blink at NCSOFT again even though he was very hopeful for this transition.
  • jbombardjbombard Member UncommonPosts: 599
    I personally thought the leveling experience had great pacing, not too slow, not too fast. One of the best leveling experiences I have had in any MMO. The main problem was getting to max, and hitting the progression brick wall, and a lack of content at max to boot.

    I am somewhat sad to see the things they are changing. The game was excellent, it was the lack of content, and then the further slowing down of content patches and cancelling of holiday events that drove me away. Put plainly, why pay for no content? Luckily now we won't have to pay anymore, but without content at max that provides a reasonable pace of progression(people feel like they are making regular progress) people will just get bored and leave. In fact that cut off will probably be sooner since you aren't tied to a subscription making you feel like you need to get your money's worth.

    I am sure I will be playing again, whether I stay or not will be up to Carbine and their ability to deliver a rewarding experience.
  • ValentinaValentina Member RarePosts: 2,108
    I do like a lot of the changes being made, I think a lot of them are for the better and needed. There are some that I am apprehensive about but I feel like it's more a matter of getting used to it (like the sprint thing) Like others, for me one of the biggest things preventing me from sticking to it was paying a subscription. I can't say the sub wasn't worth it because they did expand the game in various areas post-launch, but all in all I think there was only one real big "content update" in the way of the elder game, and that was relatively recently. Wildstar is a game that tries to have something for all types of players, something I think they actually pull off for the most part. This year we will finally see the launch of holiday events, and a lot of new content they've begun previewing in testing so I am pretty excited for this transition.
  • ragz45ragz45 Member UncommonPosts: 810
    So anyone in the game lately that can give us an idea on what the pop is like recently?
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,847
    I still get very confused by the way free-2-play is implemented. 

    My first encounter with free-2-play was when LotRO converted (2010ish?). Their rational was that a lot of potential players are put off playing the game because of the ongoing monthly subscription. They either didn't find it worth the money, or could afford it every month, or didn't have enough time each month to justify the subscription. 

    So, the free-2-play conversion of lotro was not about making the game free, but about providing an alternative method of paying for the game so that the customer could pay what they could afford. This meant first release of f2p, the shop was 90% game content and 10% cosmetics. 

    Personally, I thought that was a great approach. You get the first 4 zones (roughly 20 levels free), after which you had to start buying additional content, almost like buying lots of DLC. Seemed very fair to me, it allowed you to pay on a timescale that you wanted without committing to anything long term. 



    LotRO really feels like an exception though. All f2p games seem to offer the whole core experience for free, but screws you over on everything else, either nickle-and-diming you to unlock more features (e.g. removing gold caps, unlocking tool bars etc) or charging a lot for consumables and cosmetics. It just feels wrong to play those games - the developers are making money off your misery, rather than making money off the content they spent years developing. 


    If I ever developed a f2p MMO, the payment would be something like this:

    Subscription = £10 per month 

    Over a year, a subscriber pays £120. 

    So, you need to develop enough content each year so that a f2p player would have to spend £120 to get access to the same content as a subscriber. 

    E.g. if your game had 30 zones, 2 endgame instance clusters (3-5 dungeons / raids per cluster) plus pvp and you'd targetted 18 months from release to first expansion. 


    Subscriber = 18 x £10 = £180
    F2P = first five zones free

    Therefore 25 zones, 2 pve instance clusters plus pvp needs to cost £180 or more to make it "fair". 

    Lets charge £5 per zone (£125), £15 per instance cluster (£155) and £30 for pvp (£185).


    In this way, a subscriber gets access to everything for roughly the same price as a F2P player would have to pay, but if they are a quick player or quit earlier, they save money. The F2P player can pick and choose which features they want access to and can pay on a timescale that suits them (e.g. spend £50 christmas money unlocking more content). 


    I just cant help feeling that this sort of system (obviously adjust prices to something more suitable) would remove a hell of a lot of the bad feelings surrounding f2p and keep things a lot simpler. 
    Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman

  • SkiminoHarmonSkiminoHarmon Member UncommonPosts: 6
    ragz45 said:
    So anyone in the game lately that can give us an idea on what the pop is like recently?
    Population is where it has always been. On the low side but serviceable during peek hours and weekend nights. The problem right now is that the pop is split between the regular server and the clsed beta f2p server so I have stopped playing until the F2P launches. At which point the pop will explode and the game should sustain from there. It really is high quality it just had the wrong business model and attunement was more of a pain than it should have been.
  • orbitxoorbitxo Member RarePosts: 1,956
    edited September 2015
    ragz45 said:
    So anyone in the game lately that can give us an idea on what the pop is like recently?
    Population is where it has always been. On the low side but serviceable during peek hours and weekend nights. The problem right now is that the pop is split between the regular server and the clsed beta f2p server so I have stopped playing until the F2P launches. At which point the pop will explode and the game should sustain from there. It really is high quality it just had the wrong business model and attunement was more of a pain than it should have been.
    pretty this- my guild will start raiding DS and regular GA runs once sept 29th hits. what we really should keep an eye out is how pvp will play out. they reduced attunement -so we can see new raiders in the coming months...
  • CogohiCogohi Member UncommonPosts: 114
    edited September 2015
    ... and while you can use Service Tokens to create the results you want faster, the gold costs are reasonable for an active player.


    Dude. Read your own freakin' forums. There's a 13 page thread telling you that the PLAT (gold pffft) costs are totally out of line. Oh and that shiny new rune extraction feature which is pretty much required to extract certain rare sets is SERVICE TOKEN ONLY.

    Huh, guess by your own definition it's Pay To Win.
  • deekayzerodeekayzero Member, AMA Guest CommonPosts: 1
    so what carbine paid or gave other kickbacks to this site to publish this post, and not disclosed. that's not only blatantly unethtical under the most basic of blog format "journalism" as we know it rules, it's also illegal in most western countries. so let's dispense with the pleasantries shall we. there are several factual issues with this article as it relates to the game that any basic editorial process that claims to be so intimately familar with the subject would no doubt have no issue editing out before publications. but don't take my word for it. see for yourselves, there's nothing that i could write in a thousand or more character that will illustrate any of this better than logging in for 20 minutes and looking around for yourselves. the cost is some bandiwidth ofc, and your sanity.
  • Zarkin86Zarkin86 Member UncommonPosts: 122
    i thougth donatelli left carbine long ago...after his original design mess. weird?
  • donger56donger56 Member RarePosts: 443
    edited September 2015
    Told ya so Ted - He is laughing at all of the defiant statements Carbine made when people asked about a F2P business model not even a year ago. He didn't bother to buy the game or pay a sub fee because unlike Carbine, he knows what the MMO market is like in 2015 and he knows every sub game fails and goes F2P. Now this week he can go play the game for free while his friends rage about all the money they wasted. It's too bad Carbine didn't listen to Ted and do all this from the start last year.
  • daltaniousdaltanious Member UncommonPosts: 2,381
    edited September 2015
    Hate F2P, should be banned by law. For the rest .... why you had to WAIT for game to become F2P for game improvements?? Otherwise loved cartoony style, combat, double jump, ... much less bugs, lags, always hated very limited number of active skills on toolbar (and besides this available only drop after drop), ...
  • TheGoblinKingTheGoblinKing Member UncommonPosts: 208
    Truly sad. QUE the incoming flood of leeches and welfare victims.
  • cobaltshadowcobaltshadow Member UncommonPosts: 40
    edited September 2015
    Cogohi said:
    ... and while you can use Service Tokens to create the results you want faster, the gold costs are reasonable for an active player.


    Dude. Read your own freakin' forums. There's a 13 page thread telling you that the PLAT (gold pffft) costs are totally out of line. Oh and that shiny new rune extraction feature which is pretty much required to extract certain rare sets is SERVICE TOKEN ONLY.

    Huh, guess by your own definition it's Pay To Win.
    That's because everyone that's in this for the long haul is stocking up to take advantage of the booming market rush.  Every big transition in a game triggers this, its par for the course and it will settle itself, like all the other games do.  High Rollers and gold sellers influence this change and it cannot be helped until the hype is over and the population settles, then restoration will occur.  If you've played any MMO in the past 6 years its always been, and always will be this way until an economic structure is based on something different then grinding coins, drops, moneymaking shit,  with bots.

    That being said, the subscription probably held back the majority of people who were interested.  This game is alot of fun, and its story line and progression is all very fun.  Alot of trouble happened when you had the learn2play issues that pushed them into making the game to easy from the original model, and when a game makes that kind of large scale change it makes people feel unsure about a developers goals.  They need to stick to their guns, and people will learn to play or find farmville more their speed.
    Cobaltshadow

    • "The face of tomorrow is forged from the broken mask's of yesterday."
  • Jens008Jens008 Member CommonPosts: 16
    so what carbine paid or gave other kickbacks to this site to publish this post, and not disclosed. that's not only blatantly unethtical under the most basic of blog format "journalism" as we know it rules, it's also illegal in most western countries. so let's dispense with the pleasantries shall we. there are several factual issues with this article as it relates to the game that any basic editorial process that claims to be so intimately familar with the subject would no doubt have no issue editing out before publications. but don't take my word for it. see for yourselves, there's nothing that i could write in a thousand or more character that will illustrate any of this better than logging in for 20 minutes and looking around for yourselves. the cost is some bandiwidth ofc, and your sanity.
    You must be fucking fun at parties.
  • MuppetierMuppetier Member UncommonPosts: 279
    The cashshop currency model reminds me of an older game. You spin the Wheel of Mayhem to go up the Ladder of Chance. You go past the Mud Hut, through the Rainbow Ring to get to the Golden Monkey, you yank his tail and boom - you're in Paradise Pond!" Each of these sections of the game are interceded with questions of general knowledge for each player, and the choice of whether to pick Google or Wicked Wango cards, or pass play to the opposing contestant. Wicked Wango cards determine whether you go higher or lower (though higher or lower than what is never explained). There are also various other rules, including holding your breath whilst your question is being read, a Hopping Bonus (in which you must change legs between questions) and a Backwards Bonus, where the correct answer must be repeated backwards. The Hopping Bonus can only be used in the Super Speedy Speed Round, where the contestant must answer as many questions as possibly within a time limit. There are also Audio Questions. It is implied that one of the rules is that contestants are not allowed to talk to each other. You can use an Angel Pass for a free turn; these can be attained when picking a Google card, and can only be used once. Another Google card is the Gimme card, which means you gain all of the opposing players points. When climbing the Ladder of Chance, players may choose how many rungs they wish to climb, but must beware of the Hungry Monkey, which passes play back to the opposing player. The Time Turtle makes sure contestants don't take too long answering questions
  • redcoreredcore Member UncommonPosts: 108
    when i try to start wildstar, the game crashes with this error: ---------------------------------------------------- // // Exception // Illegal instruction (c000001d) 09/25/15 04:08:24 UTC D:\Wildstar\WildStar\Client64\WildStar64.exe auth.na.wildstar-online.com /lang en /authnc wildstar.cligate.ncsoft.com /patcher wildstar.patcher.ncsoft.com /SettingsKey WildStar Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz (8 CPUs) GenuineIntel (AMD64 SSE SSE2 RDTSC) // // Call stack // rip rsp 000007FEF0381B45 000000000024AD10 nvwgf2umx!NVAPI_Thunk() + 0x3eae95 000007FEF0114903 000000000024AD40 nvwgf2umx!NVAPI_Thunk() + 0x17dc53 000007FEF01E883F 000000000024AD70 nvwgf2umx!NVAPI_Thunk() + 0x251b8f 000007FEF01E8339 000000000024ADE0 nvwgf2umx!NVAPI_Thunk() + 0x251689 000007FEF0249904 000000000024AE10 nvwgf2umx!NVAPI_Thunk() + 0x2b2c54 000007FEF01EEFCC 000000000024AEE0 nvwgf2umx!NVAPI_Thunk() + 0x25831c 000007FEEFFEC6AE 000000000024AF50 nvwgf2umx!NVAPI_Thunk() + 0x559fe 000007FEEFFEC251 000000000024B100 nvwgf2umx!NVAPI_Thunk() + 0x555a1 000007FEEF940462 000000000024D180 nvwgf2umx!OpenAdapter12() + 0x6952 000007FEF0246AF3 000000000024D260 nvwgf2umx!NVAPI_Thunk() + 0x2afe43 000007FEEF938659 000000000024D370 nvwgf2umx!NVENCODEAPI_Thunk() + 0x3b9 000007FEEF9387BB 000000000024D410 nvwgf2umx!NVENCODEAPI_Thunk() + 0x51b 000007FEF23C07ED 000000000024D550 d3d11!D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain() + 0x2b229 000007FEF23A6C2A 000000000024D620 d3d11!D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain() + 0x11666 000007FEF23C8A87 000000000024D680 d3d11!D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain() + 0x334c3 000007FEF23C931B 000000000024D6F0 d3d11!D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain() + 0x33d57 000007FEF23C8E3F 000000000024D790 d3d11!D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain() + 0x3387b 000007FEF23C87B6 000000000024D8C0 d3d11!D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain() + 0x331f2 000007FEF23A574C 000000000024E710 d3d11!D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain() + 0x10188 000007FEF23976E2 000000000024E7F0 d3d11!D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain() + 0x211e 000007FEF23926F3 000000000024E960 d3d11!D3DKMTSetVidPnSourceOwner() + 0x62b 000007FEF2392D6A 000000000024EA70 d3d11!D3D11CoreCreateLayeredDevice() + 0x17a 000007FEF239501A 000000000024F200 d3d11!D3D11CoreCreateDevice() + 0xc06 000007FEF2395879 000000000024F4E0 d3d11!D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain() + 0x2b5 000007FEF23955B8 000000000024F550 d3d11!D3D11CreateDevice() + 0x5c 000000013FDBA20D 000000000024F6B0 WildStar64 + 0x24a20d 000000013FDBA057 000000000024F790 WildStar64 + 0x24a057 000000013FDB9AA8 000000000024F7F0 WildStar64 + 0x249aa8 000000013FD96976 000000000024F820 WildStar64 + 0x226976 000000013FD95C52 000000000024FB50 WildStar64 + 0x225c52 000000013FB73BD8 000000000024FBC0 WildStar64 + 0x3bd8 000000013FB817E1 000000000024FBF0 WildStar64 + 0x117e1 00000001402650D4 000000000024FC30 WildStar64 + 0x6f50d4 0000000076ECF56D 000000000024FC60 kernel32!BaseThreadInitThunk() + 0xd 0000000077103281 000000000024FCB0 ntdll!RtlUserThreadStart() + 0x21 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- any ideas what is going on guys? and the log file has this name: WildStar64.9398.IllegalInstruction.000007FEF0381B45.00000000
  • IshkalIshkal Member UncommonPosts: 304
    LOL that's the exact same system they have had since start. The only difference is more currencies to milk more then the average sub and create a greater time sink.
  • kreakrea Member UncommonPosts: 237
    Cannot wait just bought game 2 weeks ago and loving it didnt even try beta server so can only get better with update !:)
  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    edited September 2015
    I still get very confused by the way free-2-play is implemented. 

    My first encounter with free-2-play was when LotRO converted (2010ish?). Their rational was that a lot of potential players are put off playing the game because of the ongoing monthly subscription. They either didn't find it worth the money, or could afford it every month, or didn't have enough time each month to justify the subscription. 

    So, the free-2-play conversion of lotro was not about making the game free, but about providing an alternative method of paying for the game so that the customer could pay what they could afford. This meant first release of f2p, the shop was 90% game content and 10% cosmetics. 

    Personally, I thought that was a great approach. You get the first 4 zones (roughly 20 levels free), after which you had to start buying additional content, almost like buying lots of DLC. Seemed very fair to me, it allowed you to pay on a timescale that you wanted without committing to anything long term. 



    LotRO really feels like an exception though. All f2p games seem to offer the whole core experience for free, but screws you over on everything else, either nickle-and-diming you to unlock more features (e.g. removing gold caps, unlocking tool bars etc) or charging a lot for consumables and cosmetics. It just feels wrong to play those games - the developers are making money off your misery, rather than making money off the content they spent years developing. 


    If I ever developed a f2p MMO, the payment would be something like this:

    Subscription = £10 per month 

    Over a year, a subscriber pays £120. 

    So, you need to develop enough content each year so that a f2p player would have to spend £120 to get access to the same content as a subscriber. 

    E.g. if your game had 30 zones, 2 endgame instance clusters (3-5 dungeons / raids per cluster) plus pvp and you'd targetted 18 months from release to first expansion. 


    Subscriber = 18 x £10 = £180
    F2P = first five zones free

    Therefore 25 zones, 2 pve instance clusters plus pvp needs to cost £180 or more to make it "fair". 

    Lets charge £5 per zone (£125), £15 per instance cluster (£155) and £30 for pvp (£185).


    In this way, a subscriber gets access to everything for roughly the same price as a F2P player would have to pay, but if they are a quick player or quit earlier, they save money. The F2P player can pick and choose which features they want access to and can pay on a timescale that suits them (e.g. spend £50 christmas money unlocking more content). 


    I just cant help feeling that this sort of system (obviously adjust prices to something more suitable) would remove a hell of a lot of the bad feelings surrounding f2p and keep things a lot simpler. 

    Very interesting setup for your would-be F2P model. It's very fair, giving pretty equal consideration to both F2P'ers and subbers. And that's why you'll likely never see anything like it. LoTRO's "content a la carte" approach (or similar setups) are about as close as you'll get)

    The F2P model is attractive to developers/publishers - ironically - not because it benefits players more, but because it benefits themselves more. There are two long-established precedents upon which F2P is based...

    1. People will, and have, spend far more for "convenience" or "power" (when available) than they will on a sub fee alone. Over a decade of eBaying and other RMT activities in numerous MMOs demonstrate this unequivocally. They spend $15 on a monthly sub, then $50 or more a month on items, characters, power-leveling, gold, etc. It was only a matter of time 'til developers/publishers started to see this as money being left on the table, rather than a detriment to the game, and started looking for a way to tap into it themselves... Their solution was Cash Shops.

    2. F2P with Cash Shops generate potentially far more than a flat sub-fee will. Again, consider the example of someone who spends $15 on a sub fee, then $50, or more, on convenience/gold/leveling, etc afterward. If I told you "Hey, drop your sub fee and give up that $15 a month.. and you have the potential to still come out $35 ahead"... are you going to pass that up? Now, consider some people will readily spend into the hundreds each month. And you begin to see the appeal.

    On top of all that, many Cash Shops, and the games built around them, employ very underhanded and shady tactics to make purchases seem more attractive, if not necessary for certain types of players. Want to ensure people are going to buy more xp potions? Slow down the xp rate. Want to ensure people are going to spend money on mounts? Make sure the ones you're selling are faster than any you can get in the game, and make other navigation options very limited and/or expensive. Want to move more health pots? Make mobs hit harder and make sure the HP pots that drop in-game quickly become inadequate for survivability, while making the ones available in the cash shop much more potent and effective. Want to sell more inventory space? Make it limited to begin with, and then make sure you drop a *ton* of crap people have to carry around for quests, gift packs which "spawn" even more items to fill up space... and so on. The entire game is built around being just inconvenient/slow/tedious enough to make purchasing cash shop items seem like a worthwhile deal.

    And of course, because it's "only" $5 here and there.... it doesn't seem like that much. I mean at least you're not paying a sub fee right? Until, at the end of the month, a person can find they're spending far more than a monthly sub. Yet, somehow they'll still justify it as being more worthwhile... "because they chose to spend it". They're playing the same amount of time a month, are spending more than they would on a sub... but say it's a "better deal". So, that's the other aspect... people will often find ways to rationalize their actions to themselves (and others), because they don't want to be "wrong".

    Developers/Publishers know this is the case. They know how people tend to act/react, and they know how to manipulate and influence those actions/reactions. And that is at the core of what F2P MMOs are built around.

    There's so much to unwrap with F2P/Cash Shop, how they're designed, and all the sneaky crap they pull to prey on human behavior and its many quirks. Of course, its fans will never admit it and will always try to argue that it's somehow superior to the sub fee (where you pay a flat sub fee and have access to all the content, with only time investment being required beyond that). Again we're talking about people who will argue that if they spend, say 20 hours a month playing a MMO, regardless of how they're paying for it, that somehow it's better to spend $50 on a cash shop, than $15 on a flat monthly fee. And they will argue that point 'til they're blue in the face, and insist that their math adds up, and they are right. This is why cash shops succeed.

  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    edited September 2015
    Truly sad. QUE the incoming flood of leeches and welfare victims.
    Are you serious? How can you compare free 2 play to welfare? The majority of people end up spending more in a free 2 play game, than in a pay 2 play game. That is like saying that, they give you food stamps, but you can only buy a very select amount of food, and then tell you if you pay them a little bit of money, you can get access to more food. If you pay them a lot more you get access to the best food. Be interesting to see how the welfare system would turn out, if it was based on a f2p mmo model. There system looks good though, but looks are way different than actual game play. I remember every one saying Archeage wasn't gonna be pay 2 win, and only one person believe Archeage isn't pay 2 win. So hopefully they really mean what they said. If they have gambling boxes Im out, even if it was the best game in the world.
  • SirBalinSirBalin Member UncommonPosts: 1,300
    LOL...this game failed on launch...now they have the chance for a relaunch and nothing but problems...just sad...I think the servers have been down since the relaunch more than they've been up.

    Incognito
    www.incognito-gaming.us
    "You're either with us or against us"

  • jonp200jonp200 Member UncommonPosts: 457
    Hey MMORPG Guys I don't think you have enough Wildstar coverage on the site. :)

    Seaspite
    Playing ESO on my X-Box


  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    When the F2P patch went live Wildstar was getting 5k+ people watching the streamers. Now its Saturday and its getting 1100+. They have lost allot of interest due to the server woes that have plagued it as soon as the F2P patch went live.
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