Lots of idea sounds good but can't survive a collision with reality. Communism .. anyone? Work hard and take what you need ... sounds good .... we all know how that ends.
KS is just a bad system with bad incentives.
That's not what communism is and KS is working just fine on many other categories besides gaming.
Gaming Rocks next gen. community for last gen. gamers launching soon.
I think the noble KS funding ideal got corrupted the moment KS went live and it quickly became progressively more and more of a marketplace for promised future goods and services.
Lots of idea sounds good but can't survive a collision with reality. Communism .. anyone? Work hard and take what you need ... sounds good .... we all know how that ends.
KS is just a bad system with bad incentives.
I had to double-check and make sure you were American when I saw the communism comment, lol. Glad to see that America is still protecting the world from communism. I'd call KS more of a socialist movement, myself, but whatever floats your boat. I know socialism won't get any different treatment anyway.
Do tell why KS is a bad system with bad incentives. Here's what I've backed.
Pillars of Eternity - $25 (saved me $20) Star Citizen - $30 The Repopulation - $50 (got maybe 20 hours out of it so far) Torment: Tides of Numenera - $20 (release announced, expecting to same me $30) Hex: Shards of Fate - $20 (played beta extensively, but still waiting on PvE) Shards Online - $30 Umbra - $12 Battle Chasers: Nightwars - $27 (get a free digital comic whaaaa?!?!) Bards Tale IV - $20 (Free copy of Wasteland 2 which saves me $40, plus free digital remasters of Bard's Tale 1-3) Firefall - $20 - Some free digital items, instore currency worth $16 plus a permanent 5% increase to XP gain.
I'd say that for what's already been delivered, and the real monetary value of thigns, I'm approaching even, just on incentives, what they cost me in real life, and what it saves me from having to purchase it. I only wish I knew about the Divinity: Original Sin KS because I spent full price on that.
KS offers a great value-add system if you're conscious of the value in what you're getting. There are plenty I haven't backed because I felt they weren't a good value. Overall, it does offer good value, though.
Oh! And as far as KS games "not working" I think they're actually performing just fine. I haven't done a complete rework of my numbers, but the majority of games which were successfully funded (including those still in development) have been shipped.
Nothing. Not only that, but I see no evidence what so ever that crowd funding is a viable option from which to develop an mmorpg from. It should have worked for CIG in that they used to to initiate an alternative source of funding, however, recent indications leave some doubt there as well. Pantheon.....yeah, I'm watching that with some element of hope, however, history suggests it will never actually release.
You need to understand that creative genius cannot get the job done. That's what suits are for. Any development company that has this in balance will produce good games. When one side becomes bigger than the other, perspective is lost.
Kickstarter MMORPGs have so far been a bad fit. The MMORPGs I've enjoyed most haven't been cheap games to make. They're high quality experiences with lots of content, and that's expensive, and high-end products tend not to be what Kickstarter is best suited for.
So while I'm fine donating money towards a project asking for several hundred thousand dollars for a genre I know can be produced for that much money, I'm more skeptical of donating to a MMORPG since often they ask for far less than what it takes to create a great game. In some cases they allude to other funding, but none that I've seen have cited hard (or soft) numbers on that funding to give me enough confidence to donate -- granted, I think only Crowfall sounded appealing enough to even consider donating to in the first place (and that didn't happen because it sounded like they were angling too much towards casual (open) PVP systems.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I personally am not into putting money out without getting something right then and there, I'm not really into the idea of strangers and IOU's... Same goes for pre-order deals.
This is how I feel. People knock early access but I am all for paying to something I can test and give my feedback on over chucking money into something I will never know if it will get released. So unless I have a date I get to play, I dont pay!!!
$0. The 3 kickstarters I've backed have all been unsuccessful in funding. I did buy into The Repopulation for $15 but I don't really count that as it was on sale and felt more like a final purchase than an early access thing.
Home brew & grass roots. Meaning from the heart die-hard developers, who do not need a publisher or upfront money, because the fans want the game, will wait for it and will support the Developer.
Because developers who are willing to make game development into their real-life full-time job aren't sufficiently die-hard for you if they're working for a larger company?
I'm about $1,000 USD invested in to various titles. I am a backer for Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen, Novus Aeterno, Albion Online, The Repopulation, and a few other titles.
I'm going to say about (edit, haveto change it I have pledged this amount:)$313. I am sure that most kickstarters I've backed has come to fruition with the exception of Camelot Unchained (still in development) and that new Bard's Tale that just started, Torment being released this year I believe.
These kickstarter funds have not gone just to games but movies and music as well.
So let's see ...
Among the Sleep Two Mythica Movies (now another about to be finished) A contemporary Jazz CD Camelot Unchained (still in development) Pillars of Eternity Torment (still in development - supposed to release this year) Bard's tale just started development Project Gorgon (playable game there which is why I threw money as I found it fun) Survior (movie)
Post edited by Sovrath on
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The only 2 i am worried about are Shroud of the Avatar which looks horribly boring and the Unity engine is too restrictive for a real MMORPG and Star Citizen which i hope i can play before i don't really care any more. I doubt it will be finished and playable before 2020.
The others are way behind in schedule, which is normal for Kickstarter. Most are 3 years behind.
In what way are they finding Unity restrictive? Seems many other developers are creating MMOs in it without much trouble. Are you sure you aren't confusing Portalarium's limitations for Unity's?
Every game engine makes a bunch of basic design decisions for you. Those things are forced on you unless you're willing to modify the part of the game engine that assumes them. That may just mean re-implementing something yourself the way you want it, but for things sufficiently embedded into the engine, can mean a major overhaul.
A different game engine may make different assumptions, but any game engine that has enough there to be useful is going to force a lot of things on you. If it pushes you to do things the way you want them, that's fine. But a game engine that fits one developer's vision for his game very well may be unusable for another's.
Let's take an example from what I'm working on. I want to have minimal stored vertex data and no stored textures at all. Rather, models, textures, and animations are all determined from formulas. The data format is based on what is easy to generate from formulas, and not even close to what the graphics part of any off-the-shelf game engine will assume. Can you do that in Unity (or any other engine available) without discarding so much of the engine as to make it pointless to license the engine?
Different games from different developers that use the same engine will be pushed to do a lot of little things in the same way, as that's what the engine is built to do. That nudges games toward being substantially more similar to each other than would be the case if every game had to make its own game engine from scratch. Of course, it also lowers the competence threshold necessary to make a commercial game, which means that more games can be completed than if every game had to make its own engine from scratch.
$25 in Greed Monger (GOD DAMN IT I KNOW! SHUT UP! GEEZ!) $60 in SotA (kinda meh on that one, a lot of core changes after the KS was over) $25 in The Repopulation (I'm still optimistic) $25 in Project: Gorgon (same as above)
Wow more than I thought. I chose $75 in the poll before actually checking.
EDIT: I forgot about the $45 for Pantheon (first KS, when it was roundly panned on this forum, still not sure how the opinions on it changed so much) and the $25 for Progect:Gorgon (first KS) that were unsuccessful.
Post edited by bartoni33 on
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
The only 2 i am worried about are Shroud of the Avatar which looks horribly boring and the Unity engine is too restrictive for a real MMORPG and Star Citizen which i hope i can play before i don't really care any more. I doubt it will be finished and playable before 2020.
The others are way behind in schedule, which is normal for Kickstarter. Most are 3 years behind.
In what way are they finding Unity restrictive? Seems many other developers are creating MMOs in it without much trouble. Are you sure you aren't confusing Portalarium's limitations for Unity's?
It's C# for crying out loud. You can not make a real MMORPG in C#. You can make lobby, small map multiplayer games but not MMORPG's.
Show me one, just a single real MMORPG or AAA game made with Unity. It just can not deliver the size and performance. All Unity games will ALWAYS have extremely small map size due to memory restrictions and the inability to optimize code in C#.
Please share all these other developers that make MMO's in it.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
I've backed a couple of single player games through KS like Divinity 2, Book of Unwritten Tales 2 and Kingdom Come. In total I must have spent just under £100 over the last couple of years. Divinity 2 was a steal due to getting the original and the new game for around £30. The games I've backed I had faith the devs will/did deliver.
MMORPG's are a different matter. So far I've only spent money on a finished product. Up to this point in time IMO the majority of the low budget offerings have been trash. I did back Pantheon at the beginning of their KS but pull out due to the crap KS.
I've got no faith in the devs. They can talk the talk and offer loads of features on paper, but we have seen with DF and MO and Pathfinder that they cannot deliver.
I may be cautious when it comes parting with my money but I do hope that the latest batch of games like Pantheon, SC, Crowfall and CU will deliver and become successful.
Edit: Just wanted to give a big thumbs up to Project Gorgon. It's amazing what they have done with their limited resources and for not chasing the money with early access and opening the game for free for everyone.
The only 2 i am worried about are Shroud of the Avatar which looks horribly boring and the Unity engine is too restrictive for a real MMORPG and Star Citizen which i hope i can play before i don't really care any more. I doubt it will be finished and playable before 2020.
The others are way behind in schedule, which is normal for Kickstarter. Most are 3 years behind.
In what way are they finding Unity restrictive? Seems many other developers are creating MMOs in it without much trouble. Are you sure you aren't confusing Portalarium's limitations for Unity's?
It's C# for crying out loud. You can not make a real MMORPG in C#. You can make lobby, small map multiplayer games but not MMORPG's.
Show me one, just a single real MMORPG or AAA game made with Unity. It just can not deliver the size and performance. All Unity games will ALWAYS have extremely small map size due to memory restrictions and the inability to optimize code in C#.
Please share all these other developers that make MMO's in it.
The performance difference between programming in C# rather than C or even assembly will tend to be overwhelmed by the performance difference of a more efficient programmer versus a less efficient one. That tends to still be true if you substitute in other compiled languages, though it can go out the window if you compare the performance of a compiled language versus an interpreted one.
Once in a class, I coded something in Java and the person next to me wrote it in C, and my code outperformed his by about a factor of 1000. That's not the difference between Java and C; it's the difference between an O(n ln(n)) algorithm and an O(n^2) algorithm.
Or to put it another way, you can usually get a lot more performance in C# or Java today than you could in even the lowest level languages ten years ago, simply because hardware has advanced that much. Would you say that there were no real games ten years ago? If you want to talk about fancy graphics, then so long as you've got full access to either DirectX or OpenGL, you've got everything you need for GPU performance and the video card doesn't care what language your host code is in.
Or to put it another way, you can usually get a lot more performance in C# or Java today than you could in even the lowest level languages ten years ago, simply because hardware has advanced that much. .
And this Dumb &^&#$ right there is why crappy @$$ KSers are all optimized for ^&^*@#*. They rely on Hware(usually a limited band) to compensate for &*^*# efficiency in code.
Comments
That's not what communism is and KS is working just fine on many other categories besides gaming.
I had to double-check and make sure you were American when I saw the communism comment, lol. Glad to see that America is still protecting the world from communism. I'd call KS more of a socialist movement, myself, but whatever floats your boat. I know socialism won't get any different treatment anyway.
Do tell why KS is a bad system with bad incentives. Here's what I've backed.
Pillars of Eternity - $25 (saved me $20)
Star Citizen - $30
The Repopulation - $50 (got maybe 20 hours out of it so far)
Torment: Tides of Numenera - $20 (release announced, expecting to same me $30)
Hex: Shards of Fate - $20 (played beta extensively, but still waiting on PvE)
Shards Online - $30
Umbra - $12
Battle Chasers: Nightwars - $27 (get a free digital comic whaaaa?!?!)
Bards Tale IV - $20 (Free copy of Wasteland 2 which saves me $40, plus free digital remasters of Bard's Tale 1-3)
Firefall - $20 - Some free digital items, instore currency worth $16 plus a permanent 5% increase to XP gain.
I'd say that for what's already been delivered, and the real monetary value of thigns, I'm approaching even, just on incentives, what they cost me in real life, and what it saves me from having to purchase it. I only wish I knew about the Divinity: Original Sin KS because I spent full price on that.
KS offers a great value-add system if you're conscious of the value in what you're getting. There are plenty I haven't backed because I felt they weren't a good value. Overall, it does offer good value, though.
Oh! And as far as KS games "not working" I think they're actually performing just fine. I haven't done a complete rework of my numbers, but the majority of games which were successfully funded (including those still in development) have been shipped.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
You need to understand that creative genius cannot get the job done. That's what suits are for. Any development company that has this in balance will produce good games. When one side becomes bigger than the other, perspective is lost.
So while I'm fine donating money towards a project asking for several hundred thousand dollars for a genre I know can be produced for that much money, I'm more skeptical of donating to a MMORPG since often they ask for far less than what it takes to create a great game. In some cases they allude to other funding, but none that I've seen have cited hard (or soft) numbers on that funding to give me enough confidence to donate -- granted, I think only Crowfall sounded appealing enough to even consider donating to in the first place (and that didn't happen because it sounded like they were angling too much towards casual (open) PVP systems.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
VG
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Now, which one of you will adorn me today?
These kickstarter funds have not gone just to games but movies and music as well.
So let's see ...
Among the Sleep
Two Mythica Movies (now another about to be finished)
A contemporary Jazz CD
Camelot Unchained (still in development)
Pillars of Eternity
Torment (still in development - supposed to release this year)
Bard's tale just started development
Project Gorgon (playable game there which is why I threw money as I found it fun)
Survior (movie)
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Every game engine makes a bunch of basic design decisions for you. Those things are forced on you unless you're willing to modify the part of the game engine that assumes them. That may just mean re-implementing something yourself the way you want it, but for things sufficiently embedded into the engine, can mean a major overhaul.
A different game engine may make different assumptions, but any game engine that has enough there to be useful is going to force a lot of things on you. If it pushes you to do things the way you want them, that's fine. But a game engine that fits one developer's vision for his game very well may be unusable for another's.
Let's take an example from what I'm working on. I want to have minimal stored vertex data and no stored textures at all. Rather, models, textures, and animations are all determined from formulas. The data format is based on what is easy to generate from formulas, and not even close to what the graphics part of any off-the-shelf game engine will assume. Can you do that in Unity (or any other engine available) without discarding so much of the engine as to make it pointless to license the engine?
Different games from different developers that use the same engine will be pushed to do a lot of little things in the same way, as that's what the engine is built to do. That nudges games toward being substantially more similar to each other than would be the case if every game had to make its own game engine from scratch. Of course, it also lowers the competence threshold necessary to make a commercial game, which means that more games can be completed than if every game had to make its own engine from scratch.
$25 in Greed Monger (GOD DAMN IT I KNOW! SHUT UP! GEEZ!)
$60 in SotA (kinda meh on that one, a lot of core changes after the KS was over)
$25 in The Repopulation (I'm still optimistic)
$25 in Project: Gorgon (same as above)
Wow more than I thought. I chose $75 in the poll before actually checking.
EDIT: I forgot about the $45 for Pantheon (first KS, when it was roundly panned on this forum, still not sure how the opinions on it changed so much) and the $25 for Progect:Gorgon (first KS) that were unsuccessful.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
Can you put a price on love?
It's C# for crying out loud. You can not make a real MMORPG in C#. You can make lobby, small map multiplayer games but not MMORPG's.
Show me one, just a single real MMORPG or AAA game made with Unity. It just can not deliver the size and performance. All Unity games will ALWAYS have extremely small map size due to memory restrictions and the inability to optimize code in C#.
Please share all these other developers that make MMO's in it.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
MMORPG's are a different matter. So far I've only spent money on a finished product. Up to this point in time IMO the majority of the low budget offerings have been trash. I did back Pantheon at the beginning of their KS but pull out due to the crap KS.
I've got no faith in the devs. They can talk the talk and offer loads of features on paper, but we have seen with DF and MO and Pathfinder that they cannot deliver.
I may be cautious when it comes parting with my money but I do hope that the latest batch of games like Pantheon, SC, Crowfall and CU will deliver and become successful.
Edit: Just wanted to give a big thumbs up to Project Gorgon. It's amazing what they have done with their limited resources and for not chasing the money with early access and opening the game for free for everyone.
Once in a class, I coded something in Java and the person next to me wrote it in C, and my code outperformed his by about a factor of 1000. That's not the difference between Java and C; it's the difference between an O(n ln(n)) algorithm and an O(n^2) algorithm.
Or to put it another way, you can usually get a lot more performance in C# or Java today than you could in even the lowest level languages ten years ago, simply because hardware has advanced that much. Would you say that there were no real games ten years ago? If you want to talk about fancy graphics, then so long as you've got full access to either DirectX or OpenGL, you've got everything you need for GPU performance and the video card doesn't care what language your host code is in.