If a half *** simple mmorpg like destiny cost 500 million budget. I can't imagine what a non simplfied mmorpg cost to make.
The number is probably a bit inflated. But the cost for making half *** mmorpg is so expensive this days, I can't imagine what it cost to make a immersive one.
If a half *** simple mmorpg like destiny cost 500 million budget. I can't imagine what a non simplfied mmorpg cost to make.
The number is probably a bit inflated. But the cost for making half *** mmorpg is so expensive this days, I can't imagine what it cost to make a immersive one.
I have some times privately speculated that what is needed is a consortium approach.
One major developer produces a world with detail and depth, just the world and the physics. They then 'lease' space on that world for smaller developers to come in and develop content. The content should be reviewed for quality and consistence but sold as DLC to the players.
No idea how this would pan out in practice but it might lead to more detailed and much larger worlds, better physics and more interesting content.
If a half *** simple mmorpg like destiny cost 500 million budget. I can't imagine what a non simplfied mmorpg cost to make.
The number is probably a bit inflated. But the cost for making half *** mmorpg is so expensive this days, I can't imagine what it cost to make a immersive one.
You can make one with a simple scripting language and text-based interface.
Immersive comes from the writing, the world-building, and the lore. You can get 'immersive' without most things the majority of modern gamers consider essentials. Including graphics.
But the fancy graphics, those cost a shitload of cash. And tend to attract a much more shallow audience, and (apparently) ever-decreasing depth in the games.
Consider music before and after becoming a visual medium. Do you get more depth from the novel, or from the movie adaptation and numerous sequels?
If a half *** simple mmorpg like destiny cost 500 million budget. I can't imagine what a non simplfied mmorpg cost to make.
The number is probably a bit inflated. But the cost for making half *** mmorpg is so expensive this days, I can't imagine what it cost to make a immersive one.
Please try to get the facts straight...they projected Destiny will have a budget of 500 million over TEN YEARS...
Also Destiny is not halfass and not an mmorpg. Other then that well yeah you didn't get anything right in the post....
I've gotta wonder though why was Wow streamlined in the first place. Was it to make the game easier, dumbing it down as it were to draw in more players? Something I seriously doubt due to the sheer size of their customer base already. Or, my pet theory, these elitist theorycrafters became so rabid about number crunching and so toxic towards the people who didn't want to take the game so seriously that many players just stopped playing alternate builds or bothering to learn the game through trial and error, and instead just went straight to the best flavor of the month build. So Wow's developers just decided fuck it and removed the risk of making a gimped toon all together. After all why keep trying to balance features many of your game players aren't going to use anyway.
But streamlining a game and decreasing the difficulty are 2 very different things.
The first Guildwars game were very basic at release but yet pretty hard.
So I am more interested why they decided to make the game so easy (yes, the open world content before you spamm to correct me).
Are most MMO players really so crappy that they rather quit a game instead of actually learning to play it?
Of course with the current difficulty they wont learn since they don't have to until the endgame, and it always comes as a shock now. The somewhat older games including vanilla Wow teached you by slowly ramping things up which meant you at least knew the basics when you hit levelcap.
My biggest gripe is that when a game is easy from the start, you don't really develop as a player in the game.
For instance, in Vanilla WoW you could look at the basic progression of mob grinding. At level 1 if you were to aggro 3 enemies at once(Which you'd manually have to do since they're neutral at level 1) you would likely die. By the time you reached 60 and had some raids under your belt, you could solo 5-10 elite mobs at once, and 3 other enemy players if you were good enough.
Where as my current experience in Wildstar is to always have 5 enemies aggro'd at all times, no exceptions. Pulling entire camps of 20 enemies at once, and aoe'ing them down. However I'm not even level 20 yet thanks to the server stability. Now naturally due to the AoE restrictions in the game, I'm never going to be able to kill more than 5 mobs at a time, at least from what I can see from stalker game play. In short, whilst leveling, my numbers may go up, but my performance will stay the same.
So your relative power is a constant for the whole game? Yeah, games with no progression aren't for me.
The truth is allways in the middle, to much is not good, but to few is even worse..
What I want is a return to theory-crafting where visiting sites like Elitist Jerks actually taught you how to play your spec better. Back before their forum discussions devolved into BiS gear based of parse logs.
Back when learning how to properly build your Enhancement Shaman mean you had to learn intricacies surrounding internal Windfury Proc timers and the impact Weapon Speed had on it. Back when Hunters could lean how to modify their shot rotations to accommodate the auto-shot without clipping it off.
Seriously,
Theroycrafing is still there for pretty much any MMO.
I don't know where you get this idea that it milo her exist.
It's as watered down as the games themselves. Last time I played WoW, it really didn't matter. just raid and get the gear with the best stat for your class. The biggest thing the theory crafters could try to figure out was exactly which piece of raid gear was BiS........marginally.
I've gotta wonder though why was Wow streamlined in the first place. Was it to make the game easier, dumbing it down as it were to draw in more players? Something I seriously doubt due to the sheer size of their customer base already. Or, my pet theory, these elitist theorycrafters became so rabid about number crunching and so toxic towards the people who didn't want to take the game so seriously that many players just stopped playing alternate builds or bothering to learn the game through trial and error, and instead just went straight to the best flavor of the month build. So Wow's developers just decided fuck it and removed the risk of making a gimped toon all together. After all why keep trying to balance features many of your game players aren't going to use anyway.
That certainly was an issue, but those guys are still around acting as they did then. They just found other ways to pontificate over the rest of the player base instead of assisting them.
I'm not sure why WoW started it. I think most of it was the lazy way to address imbalance issues TBH. I know they moved Enhancement Shaman from Strength to Agi so they could eliminate the need to create different sets of mail armor. I realize all classes experienced this, but I noticed it on my Hunter the most. Over time, I watched things like removing weapon skill ups. Then the Dead Zone, then Ammo, then the Melee Weapons and finally, the actual build itself. Not to mention the entire rotation system was overhauled to a priority system to make it more forgiving.
Are most MMO players really so crappy that they rather quit a game instead of actually learning to play it?
Of course with the current difficulty they wont learn since they don't have to until the endgame, and it always comes as a shock now. The somewhat older games including vanilla Wow teached you by slowly ramping things up which meant you at least knew the basics when you hit levelcap.
Why are they "crappy" if they rather not spend time learning a skill that is not really useful in the real world?
If players want to play games casually (i.e. jump in, have some fun, then do something else), i don't see a problem.
Plus, who said you have to learn when you level up. If people want to learn at max level instead (so they can have all the skills to try out), is there a reason not to let them?
Are most MMO players really so crappy that they rather quit a game instead of actually learning to play it?
Of course with the current difficulty they wont learn since they don't have to until the endgame, and it always comes as a shock now. The somewhat older games including vanilla Wow teached you by slowly ramping things up which meant you at least knew the basics when you hit levelcap.
Why are they "crappy" if they rather not spend time learning a skill that is not really useful in the real world?
If players want to play games casually (i.e. jump in, have some fun, then do something else), i don't see a problem.
Plus, who said you have to learn when you level up. If people want to learn at max level instead (so they can have all the skills to try out), is there a reason not to let them?
Use the original Mabinogi Heroes as an example of players learning as they progress, what an amazingly well structured game in terms of progression and difficulty balance, up until Episode 8 when they tried to re-invent the wheel with their own game, aka the HJH experience.
Are most MMO players really so crappy that they rather quit a game instead of actually learning to play it?
Of course with the current difficulty they wont learn since they don't have to until the endgame, and it always comes as a shock now. The somewhat older games including vanilla Wow teached you by slowly ramping things up which meant you at least knew the basics when you hit levelcap.
Why are they "crappy" if they rather not spend time learning a skill that is not really useful in the real world?
If players want to play games casually (i.e. jump in, have some fun, then do something else), i don't see a problem.
Plus, who said you have to learn when you level up. If people want to learn at max level instead (so they can have all the skills to try out), is there a reason not to let them?
Uh, if you don't do something good you are either crappy or average at it, no insult meant. The same goes for any skill, no matter where it is useful.
And I have no problem with people playing tha game casually, that is why I suggested 2 serverset, one easy for people that enjoy that. But casual does not neccesarily means that you play badly, some casual players are good. Guildwars was a pretty casual game when it came out but it was still hard.
Time spent does not equal difficulty.
As for people learning why they level up, because it is far easier and less annoying then when you PUG with me with zero clue about how the game works. People who don't bother learning the game will most likely quit the game when it suddenly becomes hard.
Generally is always slowly ramping up the difficulty the best way for people to learn and for that matter to enjoy themselves. Having super easy a long time and then suddenly makes things hard is a model for disaster.
Note that singleplayer games usually raise the diffulty slower.
The genre suffers from being largely one big continuation. Most sequels or continuations suffer how to make a game better and more refined. Problem is you usually refine the soul of the game right out of it.
You can see this in Bioware trilogies like Dragon Age or Mass Effect. The first one while tactical is less refined and harder to plan your character. The second one comes in and tries to fix things by simplifying and refining things. The game loses its soul.
The MMORPG genre has largely been a continuation of WoW. Made more simple to refine it and get to the point. It just has gotten done more and stripping away at even what WoW was orginally.
The genre suffers from being largely one big continuation. Most sequels or continuations suffer how to make a game better and more refined. Problem is you usually refine the soul of the game right out of it.
You can see this in Bioware trilogies like Dragon Age or Mass Effect. The first one while tactical is less refined and harder to plan your character. The second one comes in and tries to fix things by simplifying and refining things. The game loses its soul.
The MMORPG genre has largely been a continuation of WoW. Made more simple to refine it and get to the point. It just has gotten done more and stripping away at even what WoW was orginally.
Completely and 100% disagree with this...
The only thing that made it appear ME and DA lost their "soul" is sites like this and Reddit that cater to the negative people. These games continue to sell well but facts like that are not fair game to you guys.
As for newer mmos not refining? Haha many newer mmos have refined, improved on areas like combat, housing, outfits, pvp, graphics, story, and pretty much every aspect of the game. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't have more mmos then ever before and we wouldn't have more people playing mmos then ever before...but again you don't want to talk facts do you...
As for people learning why they level up, because it is far easier and less annoying then when you PUG with me with zero clue about how the game works.
That has nothing to do with when they learn. You can easily set up a system where you filter out those you don't want to PUG with (for example, less than a certain number of dungeon clears, or achievement (which people do use).
Nothing is preventing people to learn to play solo at max level.
And nothing is preventing you to hit the "quit" button if you PUG with a group you do not like, or not PUG at all.
You can see this in Bioware trilogies like Dragon Age or Mass Effect. The first one while tactical is less refined and harder to plan your character. The second one comes in and tries to fix things by simplifying and refining things. The game loses its soul.
well .. if the original "soul" of a game is not what players like, is there a reason not to change it, upgrade it, or abandon it and get a new one?
Games are entertainment products. If they entertain better to more people, isn't it a good thing?
BTW, Mass Effect 2 rates BETTR than Mass Effect on metacritics, and I also like it better. It does fix stuff, and make a better (to me) game.
The genre suffers from being largely one big continuation. Most sequels or continuations suffer how to make a game better and more refined. Problem is you usually refine the soul of the game right out of it.
You can see this in Bioware trilogies like Dragon Age or Mass Effect. The first one while tactical is less refined and harder to plan your character. The second one comes in and tries to fix things by simplifying and refining things. The game loses its soul.
The MMORPG genre has largely been a continuation of WoW. Made more simple to refine it and get to the point. It just has gotten done more and stripping away at even what WoW was orginally.
Completely and 100% disagree with this...
The only thing that made it appear ME and DA lost their "soul" is sites like this and Reddit that cater to the negative people. These games continue to sell well but facts like that are not fair game to you guys.
As for newer mmos not refining? Haha many newer mmos have refined, improved on areas like combat, housing, outfits, pvp, graphics, story, and pretty much every aspect of the game. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't have more mmos then ever before and we wouldn't have more people playing mmos then ever before...but again you don't want to talk facts do you...
Hey careful there. Implying that the history of MMOs is one of improvement and refinement (which is what I think also) won't make you any friends here
BTW... WTF is an "AMA guest"?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
If you wonder why people dont stay long with MMO's anymore, well, thats because they are to simple, to easy and not challenging anymore.. Most MMO players are veterans these days, and dont want to be pampered..
Now where is that AAA+ MMO, that brings back challenge in combat, adds the right amount of AI to fights, rewards risk taken but penalises failure..
Now where is that AAA+ MMO, that has deep character development and brings the min/maxers back into the game (dont we all remember staring hours at our PnP character sheets to find out what step next. No more single advancement paths, but a deep system with subtree after subtree and choices to be made (and reversing, if at all, those choices being a hard days of work)
Now where is that AAA+ MMO, that has the perfect mix of open world PvE and PvP
Now where is that dark deep fantasy world with stories and adventures to be found beyound any corner, where if there is a sign, (there be giants here) you first gather your friends before moving any deeper into the woods.
I think the world is up for such a game again.... it really is... no more holding hands, a world where killing only counts, if you survive yourself...
People don't stick with MMO's because they don't have time for them any more. Gone are the days where people can play for 12+ hours a day. MMO's that are out are good, it's just that no one has the time to play them any more.
Plus most of the old school MMO's are still around for games for people like you who think the new crop of MMO's aren't challenging or deep enough.
Sadly I see these posts and the first thing that comes to my mind is "lip Service", cause there are games out there that you want, yet you still continue to bemoan the death of the MMO. Partly why I now rarely come to this site.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Loke666 said: As for people learning why they level up, because it is far easier and less annoying then when you PUG with me with zero clue about how the game works.
That has nothing to do with when they learn. You can easily set up a system where you filter out those you don't want to PUG with (for example, less than a certain number of dungeon clears, or achievement (which people do use).
Nothing is preventing people to learn to play solo at max level.
And nothing is preventing you to hit the "quit" button if you PUG with a group you do not like, or not PUG at all.
You could solve things by setting requirements in the dungeon finder, yes. But the problem with that is that people who have leveled up and actually learnt how to play can't get a dungeon PUG either, everyone would set things up so you only play with very experienced players with great gear.
And yes, nothing is preventing players for learn to play at highest level but what is the point of levels if they are just an easy but long (and not very good) tutorial?
2 server settings would fix this way better, that also means thta dungeons and raids will be easier for the people who want lower difficulty. There is no downside for you but a huge upside for me.
And I wont quit a PUG, that is rude. I will kick people who play badly and doesn't listen to advice though. Playing badly can be fixed but only if you listen to people trying to help you.
Still, the point of leveling is partly for fun and partly to learn you to play the game.
If you wonder why people dont stay long with MMO's anymore, well, thats because they are to simple, to easy and not challenging anymore.. Most MMO players are veterans these days, and dont want to be pampered..
Now where is that AAA+ MMO, that brings back challenge in combat, adds the right amount of AI to fights, rewards risk taken but penalises failure..
Now where is that AAA+ MMO, that has deep character development and brings the min/maxers back into the game (dont we all remember staring hours at our PnP character sheets to find out what step next. No more single advancement paths, but a deep system with subtree after subtree and choices to be made (and reversing, if at all, those choices being a hard days of work)
Now where is that AAA+ MMO, that has the perfect mix of open world PvE and PvP
Now where is that dark deep fantasy world with stories and adventures to be found beyound any corner, where if there is a sign, (there be giants here) you first gather your friends before moving any deeper into the woods.
I think the world is up for such a game again.... it really is... no more holding hands, a world where killing only counts, if you survive yourself...
People don't stick with MMO's because they don't have time for them any more. Gone are the days where people can play for 12+ hours a day. MMO's that are out are good, it's just that no one has the time to play them any more.
Plus most of the old school MMO's are still around for games for people like you who think the new crop of MMO's aren't challenging or deep enough.
Sadly I see these posts and the first thing that comes to my mind is "lip Service", cause there are games out there that you want, yet you still continue to bemoan the death of the MMO. Partly why I now rarely come to this site.
"People don't stick with MMO's because they don't have time for them any more. Gone are the days where people can play for 12+ hours a day. MMO's that are out are good, it's just that no one has the time to play them any more."
Your entire post is based on this assumption. Just curious to know if you have proof of such a statement. Can you speak for everyone when yous say this? And what exactly is so different today, that people had time then but they don't have time today?
If you as a dev think easy game brings more players then at least give us 2 serversets, a hard and an easy mode with decreased loot. That can't cost that much to offer after all and would increase the target audience.
Well GGG does this with Path of Exile, however servers are still rather expensive. Each blade for an mmo could easily run up to 100,000 USD each, and you definitely need more than one blade for an actual server. I still feel as if Original Mabinogi had one of the best difficulty curves of any MMO, that actually did its job in making players better in general at video games.
The genre suffers from being largely one big continuation. Most sequels or continuations suffer how to make a game better and more refined. Problem is you usually refine the soul of the game right out of it.
You can see this in Bioware trilogies like Dragon Age or Mass Effect. The first one while tactical is less refined and harder to plan your character. The second one comes in and tries to fix things by simplifying and refining things. The game loses its soul.
The MMORPG genre has largely been a continuation of WoW. Made more simple to refine it and get to the point. It just has gotten done more and stripping away at even what WoW was orginally.
Completely and 100% disagree with this...
The only thing that made it appear ME and DA lost their "soul" is sites like this and Reddit that cater to the negative people. These games continue to sell well but facts like that are not fair game to you guys.
As for newer mmos not refining? Haha many newer mmos have refined, improved on areas like combat, housing, outfits, pvp, graphics, story, and pretty much every aspect of the game. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't have more mmos then ever before and we wouldn't have more people playing mmos then ever before...but again you don't want to talk facts do you...
It is a devolution in terms of difficulty.
I did enjoy Mass Effect 2 and 3 through. The story still appealed to me. Even the combat was decent.
The major devolution is in terms of activities outside of combat. Managing your inventory, weight, eating, finding items and completing quests without something to show you exactly where to go, exploration, etc.
Items are now color coded in every game.
Every game has a GPS.
Levels of monsters are clearly marked.
This may be convenience, but it also removes some of the challenge IMO (something that has been argued as just tedious things (though anything can be considered tedious)).
Most MMOs don't have good stories. Old MMOs had no stories for the most part, but people enjoyed them by wandering around and having encounters with other real people.
The genre suffers from being largely one big continuation. Most sequels or continuations suffer how to make a game better and more refined. Problem is you usually refine the soul of the game right out of it.
You can see this in Bioware trilogies like Dragon Age or Mass Effect. The first one while tactical is less refined and harder to plan your character. The second one comes in and tries to fix things by simplifying and refining things. The game loses its soul.
The MMORPG genre has largely been a continuation of WoW. Made more simple to refine it and get to the point. It just has gotten done more and stripping away at even what WoW was orginally.
Completely and 100% disagree with this...
The only thing that made it appear ME and DA lost their "soul" is sites like this and Reddit that cater to the negative people. These games continue to sell well but facts like that are not fair game to you guys.
As for newer mmos not refining? Haha many newer mmos have refined, improved on areas like combat, housing, outfits, pvp, graphics, story, and pretty much every aspect of the game. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't have more mmos then ever before and we wouldn't have more people playing mmos then ever before...but again you don't want to talk facts do you...
It is a devolution in terms of difficulty.
I did enjoy Mass Effect 2 and 3 through. The story still appealed to me. Even the combat was decent.
The major devolution is in terms of activities outside of combat. Managing your inventory, weight, eating, finding items and completing quests without something to show you exactly where to go, exploration, etc.
Items are now color coded in every game.
Every game has a GPS.
Levels of monsters are clearly marked.
This may be convenience, but it also removes some of the challenge IMO (something that has been argued as just tedious things (though anything can be considered tedious)).
Most MMOs don't have good stories. Old MMOs had no stories for the most part, but people enjoyed them by wandering around and having encounters with other real people.
I think the point most are missing is the difficulty is still there, you just need to find it. In Swtor for example there are heroic areas while you are questing. Are these required? Nope but if you want a challenge they are there. Datacrons are hidden there is no arrow pointing you where to go it's all ok you to explore.
Sure the games have changed but they have to. No longer are mmos only for a niche little group of elite gamers, mmos are mainstream they need to cater to all different play styles and in my opinion I think they do a good job of this.
Why would they change? For you? Who the hell do you think YOU are? Seriously get a grip on reality. The majority of the client base is not very capable. It could be from a variety of reasons too, ranging from lack of motivation to physical/mental disabilities. These are paying customers just like you and they have every right to entertainment just like you. So why would the corporations alienate the majority to appease the minority. These are businesses with stockholders and responsibilities. I'm sure they are all heartbroken that a minority of the playerbase is not finding it difficult enough to suit them, but not heartbroken enough to take a cut in pay. I don't think any of them would agree that losing millions of dollars in revenue is worthwhile so that xXxDethfingurxXx can feel challenged through standard content. Even if you paid more for the access, I don't think you could pay enough.
If you want to resolve the problem, start coming up with ways that "challenge" can scale appropriately depending on the capabilities of the player. Oh and don't forget to factor in the effects of cheaters, hackers and all that. Good luck.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
For the already established companies, with already established games, you are completely correct. For new games though, you are way off the mark. Just look at the games currently in development that have noted that this particular market segment may be a niche market, but it is the market segment that they choose to target. (i.e. Revival, Saga of Lucimia, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria)
I can't speak as to whether these games will make it out of development, much less be successful in the mainstream market, but developers aren't aiming for that in the first place. Lucimia's head dev has stated that they are targeting a specific market because they see them as being neglected.
So, "Who the hell do they think they are?" They are paying customers, just like everyone else, and they are totally entitled on being vocal about how they would like to spend their money. No need to cut them down for being vocal about their wants or opinions.
Comments
The number is probably a bit inflated. But the cost for making half *** mmorpg is so expensive this days, I can't imagine what it cost to make a immersive one.
One major developer produces a world with detail and depth, just the world and the physics. They then 'lease' space on that world for smaller developers to come in and develop content. The content should be reviewed for quality and consistence but sold as DLC to the players.
No idea how this would pan out in practice but it might lead to more detailed and much larger worlds, better physics and more interesting content.
Just me flying a kite.
Immersive comes from the writing, the world-building, and the lore. You can get 'immersive' without most things the majority of modern gamers consider essentials. Including graphics.
But the fancy graphics, those cost a shitload of cash. And tend to attract a much more shallow audience, and (apparently) ever-decreasing depth in the games.
Consider music before and after becoming a visual medium. Do you get more depth from the novel, or from the movie adaptation and numerous sequels?
Also Destiny is not halfass and not an mmorpg. Other then that well yeah you didn't get anything right in the post....
The first Guildwars game were very basic at release but yet pretty hard.
So I am more interested why they decided to make the game so easy (yes, the open world content before you spamm to correct me).
Are most MMO players really so crappy that they rather quit a game instead of actually learning to play it?
Of course with the current difficulty they wont learn since they don't have to until the endgame, and it always comes as a shock now. The somewhat older games including vanilla Wow teached you by slowly ramping things up which meant you at least knew the basics when you hit levelcap.
I'm not sure why WoW started it. I think most of it was the lazy way to address imbalance issues TBH. I know they moved Enhancement Shaman from Strength to Agi so they could eliminate the need to create different sets of mail armor. I realize all classes experienced this, but I noticed it on my Hunter the most. Over time, I watched things like removing weapon skill ups. Then the Dead Zone, then Ammo, then the Melee Weapons and finally, the actual build itself. Not to mention the entire rotation system was overhauled to a priority system to make it more forgiving.
If players want to play games casually (i.e. jump in, have some fun, then do something else), i don't see a problem.
Plus, who said you have to learn when you level up. If people want to learn at max level instead (so they can have all the skills to try out), is there a reason not to let them?
And I have no problem with people playing tha game casually, that is why I suggested 2 serverset, one easy for people that enjoy that. But casual does not neccesarily means that you play badly, some casual players are good. Guildwars was a pretty casual game when it came out but it was still hard.
Time spent does not equal difficulty.
As for people learning why they level up, because it is far easier and less annoying then when you PUG with me with zero clue about how the game works. People who don't bother learning the game will most likely quit the game when it suddenly becomes hard.
Generally is always slowly ramping up the difficulty the best way for people to learn and for that matter to enjoy themselves. Having super easy a long time and then suddenly makes things hard is a model for disaster.
Note that singleplayer games usually raise the diffulty slower.
You can see this in Bioware trilogies like Dragon Age or Mass Effect. The first one while tactical is less refined and harder to plan your character. The second one comes in and tries to fix things by simplifying and refining things. The game loses its soul.
The MMORPG genre has largely been a continuation of WoW. Made more simple to refine it and get to the point. It just has gotten done more and stripping away at even what WoW was orginally.
The only thing that made it appear ME and DA lost their "soul" is sites like this and Reddit that cater to the negative people. These games continue to sell well but facts like that are not fair game to you guys.
As for newer mmos not refining? Haha many newer mmos have refined, improved on areas like combat, housing, outfits, pvp, graphics, story, and pretty much every aspect of the game. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't have more mmos then ever before and we wouldn't have more people playing mmos then ever before...but again you don't want to talk facts do you...
Nothing is preventing people to learn to play solo at max level.
And nothing is preventing you to hit the "quit" button if you PUG with a group you do not like, or not PUG at all.
well .. if the original "soul" of a game is not what players like, is there a reason not to change it, upgrade it, or abandon it and get a new one?
Games are entertainment products. If they entertain better to more people, isn't it a good thing?
BTW, Mass Effect 2 rates BETTR than Mass Effect on metacritics, and I also like it better. It does fix stuff, and make a better (to me) game.
BTW... WTF is an "AMA guest"?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
People don't stick with MMO's because they don't have time for them any more. Gone are the days where people can play for 12+ hours a day. MMO's that are out are good, it's just that no one has the time to play them any more.
Plus most of the old school MMO's are still around for games for people like you who think the new crop of MMO's aren't challenging or deep enough.
Sadly I see these posts and the first thing that comes to my mind is "lip Service", cause there are games out there that you want, yet you still continue to bemoan the death of the MMO. Partly why I now rarely come to this site.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
And yes, nothing is preventing players for learn to play at highest level but what is the point of levels if they are just an easy but long (and not very good) tutorial?
2 server settings would fix this way better, that also means thta dungeons and raids will be easier for the people who want lower difficulty. There is no downside for you but a huge upside for me.
And I wont quit a PUG, that is rude. I will kick people who play badly and doesn't listen to advice though. Playing badly can be fixed but only if you listen to people trying to help you.
Still, the point of leveling is partly for fun and partly to learn you to play the game.
"People don't stick with MMO's because they don't have time for them any more. Gone are the days where people can play for 12+ hours a day. MMO's that are out are good, it's just that no one has the time to play them any more."
Your entire post is based on this assumption. Just curious to know if you have proof of such a statement. Can you speak for everyone when yous say this? And what exactly is so different today, that people had time then but they don't have time today?
Just curious, is all.
there is a reason that zombie survival games are so popular these days...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I did enjoy Mass Effect 2 and 3 through. The story still appealed to me. Even the combat was decent.
The major devolution is in terms of activities outside of combat. Managing your inventory, weight, eating, finding items and completing quests without something to show you exactly where to go, exploration, etc.
Items are now color coded in every game.
Every game has a GPS.
Levels of monsters are clearly marked.
This may be convenience, but it also removes some of the challenge IMO (something that has been argued as just tedious things (though anything can be considered tedious)).
Most MMOs don't have good stories. Old MMOs had no stories for the most part, but people enjoyed them by wandering around and having encounters with other real people.
Sure the games have changed but they have to. No longer are mmos only for a niche little group of elite gamers, mmos are mainstream they need to cater to all different play styles and in my opinion I think they do a good job of this.
Why would they change? For you? Who the hell do you think YOU are? Seriously get a grip on reality. The majority of the client base is not very capable. It could be from a variety of reasons too, ranging from lack of motivation to physical/mental disabilities. These are paying customers just like you and they have every right to entertainment just like you. So why would the corporations alienate the majority to appease the minority. These are businesses with stockholders and responsibilities. I'm sure they are all heartbroken that a minority of the playerbase is not finding it difficult enough to suit them, but not heartbroken enough to take a cut in pay. I don't think any of them would agree that losing millions of dollars in revenue is worthwhile so that xXxDethfingurxXx can feel challenged through standard content. Even if you paid more for the access, I don't think you could pay enough.
If you want to resolve the problem, start coming up with ways that "challenge" can scale appropriately depending on the capabilities of the player. Oh and don't forget to factor in the effects of cheaters, hackers and all that. Good luck.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Maybe, just maybe, it's not the game, but everything around the game.
Just a thought.
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
For the already established companies, with already established games, you are completely correct. For new games though, you are way off the mark. Just look at the games currently in development that have noted that this particular market segment may be a niche market, but it is the market segment that they choose to target. (i.e. Revival, Saga of Lucimia, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria)
I can't speak as to whether these games will make it out of development, much less be successful in the mainstream market, but developers aren't aiming for that in the first place. Lucimia's head dev has stated that they are targeting a specific market because they see them as being neglected.
So, "Who the hell do they think they are?" They are paying customers, just like everyone else, and they are totally entitled on being vocal about how they would like to spend their money. No need to cut them down for being vocal about their wants or opinions.