I didn't know thirteen people with naught but a personal opinion, of which only half of them are even making an argument that even slants towards your claims, represents a majority.
You, the one who just wanted to laugh off something as being a poor use of examples or references, just utilized a source which itself is devoid of content to attempt to reaffirm your opinion. By all means you're free to have that opinion and disagree, but you have not shared anything that establishes a factual argument. Laughing their comments off derisively, accusing them of failing in a reasonable argument, and then offering the exact opposite of a reasonable argument yourself is not a good strategy to making a point.
Right, it's not even high enough quality to attract reviews.
It's a cruddy low-quality indie game that was cited in an analogy about a high-end club. It's a game where collecting sweat from live animals is literally a thing you do. The graphics are shoddy, and the controls are awful. Which are all reasons why hardly anyone has reviewed the game: it's clearly not a game many are interested in.
I don't think anyone is questioning that with proper marketing and an experience done to the highest standards for a specific demographic you cannot attract an audience. The question is whether the revenue that audience generates is worth the cost.
I think you explain the dominant thinking of the major publishers quite well, and I'm glad that most industries which have passion for their crafts aren't like the major MMO publishers in all things, all the time. ... That's why I'm glad that most industries don't act like MMO publishers in all things, and actually do things every now and then that still show that there's taste in the world. ... These are questions that the current publishers don't answer...
You make a lot of claims as to what publishers and developers do and why they do it. Can you link to the data, articles or interviews that you are basing any of this on?
I can point to things the MMO publishers aren't doing:
Now, on the surface, the article on Star Wars Battlefront and 1313 looks like its innovative and risk taking...but read closely, and all you find is the same old hat, from the same old ideas, from the same old publishers.
"There is no studio better equipped to develop this game at EA than shooter veteran DICE." But what they forgot to add is that there's no studio less able to do something new or innovative than DICE.
Here's 1313:
"Fans really want this game to be some version of Star Wars 1313, the canceled action-adventure game that starred a young Boba Fett before he became the legendary bounty hunter. For a time, the third-person action-adventure game seemed to be all LucasArts had going for it in its final days before Disney closed the developer down. After major restructuring and a series of defeats, 1313 stood as a new hope for Star Wars games when it was first unveiled at E3 2012. But when Disney acquired LucasArts, the game had nowhere to go but into the sarlacc pit."
Cute, but it gets worse...
Although EA has revealed absolutely no details about the game beyond who's making it, the odds are pretty high that the game is a third-person action-adventure game with a very distinct [Beatnik59, meaning very predictable] style."
"Visceral is known for Dead Space -- a series often cited as one of the best in the sci-fi horror genre -- which perfectly captured the feeling and tone of films such as Alien, Event Horizon, and Sunshinethrough intense third-person combat and puzzle-solving, all tied up with a captivating narrative."--Again, nothing to see here but the same worn patterns...another "Ford Focus" for 2015, instead of a Ford GT.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
"Visceral is known for Dead Space -- a series often cited as one of the best in the sci-fi horror genre -- which perfectly captured the feeling and tone of films such as Alien, Event Horizon, and Sunshinethrough intense third-person combat and puzzle-solving, all tied up with a captivating narrative."--Again, nothing to see here but the same worn patterns...another "Ford Focus" for 2015, instead of a Ford GT.
wait .. what is the problem with DS? It was highly rated (86 on metacritics). Players like it (80 user score), and obviously making lots of money.
At the point it comes out, there is no games like it (particularly the way combat was done .. cutting off limbs).
Now you surely claim that DS2 or DS3 are no longer innovative, but the first one is a breeze of fresh air in gaming.
RuneScape 3 does exist on Metacritic (6.0 user review) but apparently hasn't been considered big enough or good enough for a single review site to cover.
It's just like Entropia: clearly not a luxury MMORPG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Now, on the surface, the article on Star Wars Battlefront and 1313 looks like its innovative and risk taking...but read closely, and all you find is the same old hat, from the same old ideas, from the same old publishers.
"There is no studio better equipped to develop this game at EA than shooter veteran DICE." But what they forgot to add is that there's no studio less able to do something new or innovative than DICE.
Here's 1313:
"Fans really want this game to be some version of Star Wars 1313, the canceled action-adventure game that starred a young Boba Fett before he became the legendary bounty hunter. For a time, the third-person action-adventure game seemed to be all LucasArts had going for it in its final days before Disney closed the developer down. After major restructuring and a series of defeats, 1313 stood as a new hope for Star Wars games when it was first unveiled at E3 2012. But when Disney acquired LucasArts, the game had nowhere to go but into the sarlacc pit."
Cute, but it gets worse...
Although EA has revealed absolutely no details about the game beyond who's making it, the odds are pretty high that the game is a third-person action-adventure game with a very distinct [Beatnik59, meaning very predictable] style."
"Visceral is known for Dead Space -- a series often cited as one of the best in the sci-fi horror genre -- which perfectly captured the feeling and tone of films such as Alien, Event Horizon, and Sunshinethrough intense third-person combat and puzzle-solving, all tied up with a captivating narrative."--Again, nothing to see here but the same worn patterns...another "Ford Focus" for 2015, instead of a Ford GT.
All the products you're listing are limited by physical production limitations. This is why luxury versions of those products are a thing.
With software, throwing $200 million at a MMORPG like SWTOR is the best the genre can produce. It's the equivalent of an MMORPG luxury product, except that nearly everyone can afford and enjoy it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Some of the most trendy hipster joints I've been in IRL are--quite literally--"empty warehouses" that get filled up with some theme that the promoters want.
But I digress...
Small markets can, if properly targeted, be quite lucrative and grow into big markets over time as word spreads. And I can think of a few small markets that a proper boutique-style MMO can exploit.
Here's one example.
A combination "club" "virtual cruise ship" "LARP/MUSH" and "participatory murder mystery theatre" for Star Trek fans. Yes we have the mass market STO designed by MMO designers for a mass market. The problem is that they never asked Trekkies what they want, and they never designed a game with Trek fans in mind.
If they did, they'd understand that the true Trek fan wants authenticity over playability, and deep character play. And the reason I know this is because they are already doing it, in real life, going to such lengths as to reconstruct a whole freaking language just so they can roleplay as "authentic" Klingons.
I can imagine a Star Trek game that is almost like "Second Life in space." In other words, you have a few super detailed "sets" (DS-9, Enterprise, a Klingon battle cruiser, Star Fleet academy, etc.) and perhaps a few ones that live GMs can roll out on occasion to spice things up (a Borg ship, the Gorn homeworld, A damaged freighter, etc.). Everybody gets to start as an ensign and can sign up for various duties (engineering, security, medical, etc.) on board under the captain (who would be played by a dev). They can also go explore the ship, go to the holodeck, go to Ten-Forward and do other things on their "off time" if they want.
They can play the species they want. Promotions would be given out every so often by the developers for those players who play their characters well (do their jobs well, volunteer for things like away teams, fix problems, show good character play, not be a dick, etc.).
Now the thing about this game is that there will be all kinds of stuff going on at once. You might have a Cardassian spy who is trying to smuggle something off the ship in the cargo bay, at the same time that an away team is investigating a freighter, at the same time that some crazy Vulcan is kicking ass and dry humping everything in sight while going through the Pon Far, at the same time that the traditional Klingon ritual of MajQa is held in Holodeck 1, at the same time that the ship encounters a Romulan vessel in the neutral zone...some or all of which is planned out by the developers ahead of time.
Now, how much would you pay for that? If Trek isn't your thing, probably not all that much. But if you are a Trekkie, or a sci-fi fan, or a roleplayer, that kind of experience is easily worth many times more money than a traditional MMO. Remember, these people pay thousands of dollars just to buy an authentic StarFleet replica uniform to cosplay in once or twice. They can--and will--pay similarly high amounts for the best Star Trek experience they can get online (assuming that it is the best, with no compromise).
Perhaps Trek isn't a lot of peoples' thing. But that doesn't mean that the right game, done to the highest standards of what this medium can do, won't draw interest and income from people who just want to be a part of something that's unique and done very well, regardless of whether they are Trek fans or not. That's what a commitment to excellence does; it may not be "your thing," but you'll know that it'll be done right.
That's what I see...but we have to take our stale, "mass-market gamified" blinders off in order to see the potential for this kind of boutique experience.
So do you consider trendy hipster joints to be high-end luxury clubs? Or was that you agreeing with my point?
Nobody's arguing that the hipster joint can't be profitable. It's just very obviously not a luxury club.
Your idea is unlikely to be viable in MMORPG form, given that SWTOR's $200 million essentially was the "luxury MMORPG" and given your attitude I doubt you're off playing TOR between posting. TOR was successful but not a runaway smash hit like WOW was.
Furthermore, keep in mind the actual percentage numbers of your idea. A typical game costs $50. If you're taking the appeal of that typical game and slicing it down so that only 1 in 5 players would be interested, the price must rise to $250 dollars (just to buy the box!) Then on top of that, the box now costs $250 dollars! This further reduces the number of people interested in the product! If 1 in 5 of those remaining players (1 in 25 of the original) was willing to pay that much, then well...now we would be forced to charge $1250 for the box to break even. See the problem? (Also the subscription would be $375 a month.)
Part of the problem is that mass-market games are capable of being some of the deepest games as well (like WOW.) So in terms of gameplay nothing is really being sacrificed to deliver a game which is both simple to learn and takes a long time to master.
Nah, SWTOR was a Ford Focus or a Honda Civic. It's not unusual for a major, mass market product to take up major, mass market money. But this thing wasn't designed to appeal to the luxury crowd. It was meant to appeal to the masses.
I agree with you on price. I don't doubt that a game like the one I described would be expensive to buy into. But so what? As we already know, enough people dump $1000 or more in F2P crap which is, quite frankly, much less value than what they could have if the game is designed from the ground up to give these whales what they wanted all along: the best experience. Why abuse your best customers by forcing them to play a standard, typical MMO and having to add on things to make it special? Why not just design the special MMO, make it too expensive for your average punk to buy into, and give the whales more than they could ever dream of from your typical, automated, F2P faire?
Where I disagree is that a high price tag is a problem An insanely high price tag doesn't reduce the interest in Corvette ZR1s, Louboutin shoes, Movado watches, Cartier cufflinks, a condo in Trump Tower or first class service on Ethiad Airways. If anything, it only fuels interest, especially when you are getting something above and beyond the norm. If it's the best, you'll have people spending money they don't have to get in on it, just to experience it.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that you really don't want a lot of people to get in on it, because then it'll just lose its appeal.
MMO publishers? They know how to put out their bellcows and money makers (the WoWs, the STOs, the SWTORs). What they need to include is a prized bull in the stable... A "concept car" or a full out, no compromise experience for the true aficionado. Where anything short of the best is not good enough.
Post edited by Beatnik59 on
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
RuneScape 3 does exist on Metacritic (6.0 user review) but apparently hasn't been considered big enough or good enough for a single review site to cover.
It's just like Entropia: clearly not a luxury MMORPG.
All the games I quoted are low quality... but they are also the foundation of the MMORPG industry. They have been operating for over a decade, and doing so successfully. They have also been able to withstand the launch of WoW. The question is, what high quality game can hope to do as well as any of these?
Maybe the issue is that these are all OLD games, and that despite being low quality today.. they were innovative at the time. You can go back even further, with games like Isle of Kesmai or Air Warrior, which are also old, low quality games. These WERE premium games at the time, but they are so old/obsolete that they dont operate anymore.
Right, it's not even high enough quality to attract reviews.
It's a cruddy low-quality indie game that was cited in an analogy about a high-end club. It's a game where collecting sweat from live animals is literally a thing you do. The graphics are shoddy, and the controls are awful. Which are all reasons why hardly anyone has reviewed the game: it's clearly not a game many are interested in.
And? You have only provided continued expression of opinion. Most games have inane gathering mechanics, not to mention in the case of Entropia it's utilized as one of the most basic crafting components to fuel certain abilities in the game and is offered as a gathering mechanic as a no-cost no-risk baseline mechanic to let people fall back to in order to farm up currency in the title.
To which again, your remark that the "graphics are shoddy and controls are awful" and only sharing an image of the game from the pre-cryengine update to give a false impression of the game compared to it's reality, is not particularly honest.
Like also suggested, you're looking at titles that are 12+ years old and either criticizing aspects of their past or of their age. It's not saying anything of the design or intent of referencing them, only extracting their mention as a way to lambaste a subject with a herring that is itself a dubious claim.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I don't think anyone is questioning that with proper marketing and an experience done to the highest standards for a specific demographic you cannot attract an audience. The question is whether the revenue that audience generates is worth the cost.
I think you explain the dominant thinking of the major publishers quite well, and I'm glad that most industries which have passion for their crafts aren't like the major MMO publishers in all things, all the time. ... That's why I'm glad that most industries don't act like MMO publishers in all things, and actually do things every now and then that still show that there's taste in the world. ... These are questions that the current publishers don't answer...
You make a lot of claims as to what publishers and developers do and why they do it. Can you link to the data, articles or interviews that you are basing any of this on?
I think in the case of the MMORPG that genre's actions speak for themselves. And you do have developers own words if you really look on what they were thinking creating a game. EQ Next, for example, was a scrapped and remade because it was WoW like. Other games have said they wanted to make X game like WoW. Almost every game that has come out by major studios is basically the MMORPG style that WoW made standard.
With software, throwing $200 million at a MMORPG like SWTOR is the best the genre can produce. It's the equivalent of an MMORPG luxury product, except that nearly everyone can afford and enjoy it.
SWTOR isn't the best that can be done, simply because it lacks what the earliest MUDs and MUSHs had: live action GMing by the designers themselves.
What we have forgotten is that these games used to be actively ran and managed on a day to day basis, 23 hours a day. You'd have GMs, "Wizards" and so on actively playing characters and setting things up, using developer tools to create events on the fly. That, however, has changed. These days, developers think that the game ought to run itself, and it shouldn't require active participation outside of turning the server off an on for a maintenance cycle and throwing more stuff in the item store. I say that's a cheap copy of multiplayer gaming, and not the essence of it.
The problem with SWTOR is, like nearly all MMOs, its automated. The mobs are AI'd, the NPCs are AI'd--even the customer service is AI'd. It isn't full service. It's self service.
This was done as a cost/benefit thing, I'm sure. People cost money, so why hire them when you can write scripts to do the work for people?
As a result, the game--by necessity--becomes a throwaway thing that you consume and ditch. There are so many limitations when developers refuse to take an active hand in GMing on a day to day basis.
This is something that a boutique MMO can restore: live action, game mastering from the professional staff, who are 100% committed to making the game unique every day.
As the PvPers, the RPers--even the raid groupers and guild players will tell you, "there's no substitute for a live person"...that's why people play these things over...say...Batman Arkham. And that's where I see MMOs going, if they want to go high end...not copying SWTOR's workaround by substituting scripts for a GM and live team, but giving them real GMs, real character actors playing real antagonists, VIPs from the lore, and cameos for various happenings.
Expensive? You betcha. Exclusive? Yep. Artisinal in scope? Most certainly. But I would argue that this gets to the essence of multiplayer roleplaying games more completely than the pablum we've had since the publishers decided that a dev's job is in the studio, and not in the game.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Oh, and one more thing to my post just above, just to put this in perspective...
It is not uncommon for a luxury hotel to have a staff to guest ratio of 0.5:1...that is to say, there's a paid staff member for every two guests.
Looking at it that way, what is the staff to guest ratio for a game like WoW, or Everquest? Probably 0.00001 to 1 at least, and possibly much more.
Even if you get a staff to guest ratio of 0.01 to 1, so you can do personalized live events frequently, you are talking orders of magnitude better personalized service than what we settle for now.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
This is something that a boutique MMO can restore: live action, game mastering from the professional staff, who are 100% committed to making the game unique every day.
Why bother if most players don't need a game that is unique every day?
Why bother if most players don't need a game that is unique every day?
Most flyers don't need first class airline amenities either. First class is for those who do.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Nah, SWTOR was a Ford Focus or a Honda Civic. It's not unusual for a major, mass market product to take up major, mass market money. But this thing wasn't designed to appeal to the luxury crowd. It was meant to appeal to the masses.
I agree with you on price. I don't doubt that a game like the one I described would be expensive to buy into. But so what? As we already know, enough people dump $1000 or more in F2P crap which is, quite frankly, much less value than what they could have if the game is designed from the ground up to give these whales what they wanted all along: the best experience. Why abuse your best customers by forcing them to play a standard, typical MMO and having to add on things to make it special? Why not just design the special MMO, make it too expensive for your average punk to buy into, and give the whales more than they could ever dream of from your typical, automated, F2P faire?
Where I disagree is that a high price tag is a problem An insanely high price tag doesn't reduce the interest in Corvette ZR1s, Louboutin shoes, Movado watches, Cartier cufflinks, a condo in Trump Tower or first class service on Ethiad Airways. If anything, it only fuels interest, especially when you are getting something above and beyond the norm. If it's the best, you'll have people spending money they don't have to get in on it, just to experience it.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that you really don't want a lot of people to get in on it, because then it'll just lose its appeal.
MMO publishers? They know how to put out their bellcows and money makers (the WoWs, the STOs, the SWTORs). What they need to include is a prized bull in the stable... A "concept car" or a full out, no compromise experience for the true aficionado. Where anything short of the best is not good enough.
You still don't get it. With cars most of the production cost isn't shared, but with software most of the production cost is shared.
Production cost isn't automatically correlated to quality, so sure maybe SWTOR is the fire-prone Ferrari 458 Italia instead of the Bugatti Veyron. But either way, there's no doubting that it's a luxury game with few peers when it comes to the production investment.
If you're looking for a quirky hipster joint (Second Life, Entropia) then that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion of what makes a game great. Just don't go around pretending those are anything remotely similar to a luxury experience.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I would do a sub at $2.00 a month with cosmetics/pets only cash shop. Include lots and lots and lots of housing, crafting, furniture, hidden chests. Large PvE world but with WvW castle wars controlling all zone entrance/exits. It would look like Everquest and Sims had a baby. Vista/Mac/Linux friendly. 3dfancy all camera options. No questing as questing is BOOORING. The most extensive character creation ever with more than 100 voice actors just for player characters alone. Breeding.
Nah, SWTOR was a Ford Focus or a Honda Civic. It's not unusual for a major, mass market product to take up major, mass market money. But this thing wasn't designed to appeal to the luxury crowd. It was meant to appeal to the masses.
I agree with you on price. I don't doubt that a game like the one I described would be expensive to buy into. But so what? As we already know, enough people dump $1000 or more in F2P crap which is, quite frankly, much less value than what they could have if the game is designed from the ground up to give these whales what they wanted all along: the best experience. Why abuse your best customers by forcing them to play a standard, typical MMO and having to add on things to make it special? Why not just design the special MMO, make it too expensive for your average punk to buy into, and give the whales more than they could ever dream of from your typical, automated, F2P faire?
Where I disagree is that a high price tag is a problem An insanely high price tag doesn't reduce the interest in Corvette ZR1s, Louboutin shoes, Movado watches, Cartier cufflinks, a condo in Trump Tower or first class service on Ethiad Airways. If anything, it only fuels interest, especially when you are getting something above and beyond the norm. If it's the best, you'll have people spending money they don't have to get in on it, just to experience it.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that you really don't want a lot of people to get in on it, because then it'll just lose its appeal.
MMO publishers? They know how to put out their bellcows and money makers (the WoWs, the STOs, the SWTORs). What they need to include is a prized bull in the stable... A "concept car" or a full out, no compromise experience for the true aficionado. Where anything short of the best is not good enough.
You still don't get it. With cars most of the production cost isn't shared, but with software most of the production cost is shared.
Production cost isn't automatically correlated to quality, so sure maybe SWTOR is the fire-prone Ferrari 458 Italia instead of the Bugatti Veyron. But either way, there's no doubting that it's a luxury game with few peers when it comes to the production investment.
If you're looking for a quirky hipster joint (Second Life, Entropia) then that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion of what makes a game great. Just don't go around pretending those are anything remotely similar to a luxury experience.
Let's not have a typical bourgeois notion of what luxury is, where we can only think of it in bourgeois calculations of "cost/benefit" analyses. The truth of the matter is that there is no dollar value placed on the unique, but dollars can--when well placed--give you access to the unique. Wouldn't you agree?
Is just any old "quirky hipster joint" a luxury experience? No. But hipster joints which feature rotating art installations and world-class DJs, and are invitation only, certainly qualify, no?
It all has to do with the experience you get, not the amount you spend, isn't it? If it were all that easy to buy a fancy car to stamp your ticket, there'd be a lot more stamped tickets. But luxury doesn't work that way, except when you approach it like some dolt accountant does, and say "$200 million is a lot, therefore it must be luxury."
I say no. If SWTOR was truly a luxury MMO, you wouldn't even have scripted NPCs handing out quests. You'd get your quests from a character actor on staff, who is paid to give you and the guests the personal attention necessary to give you fun. The true luxury MMO wouldn't need you to buy things constantly to keep it fresh and new. The staff would make it a fresh and new adventure every day.
The fact is, there isn't any luxury MMO today, because there isn't anyone who has figured out how to give the exclusive clientele an exclusive experience. All they can do is give them more tacky crap to "keep up with the Jones's". And, quite frankly, I think that's a rather shoddy way to treat your best clientele. If people are willing to throw thousands of dollars at an MMO, they ought to have a special "private client" level of service, no?
That's why I don't think something like SWTOR is luxury, and that most F2P with whales isn't true luxury either. It's petty parvenu status chasing, at best.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I would do a sub at $2.00 a month with cosmetics/pets only cash shop. Include lots and lots and lots of housing, crafting, furniture, hidden chests. Large PvE world but with WvW castle wars controlling all zone entrance/exits. It would look like Everquest and Sims had a baby. Vista/Mac/Linux friendly. 3dfancy all camera options. No questing as questing is BOOORING. The most extensive character creation ever with more than 100 voice actors just for player characters alone. Breeding.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The fact is, there isn't any luxury MMO today, because there isn't anyone who has figured out how to give the exclusive clientele an exclusive experience. All they can do is give them more tacky crap to "keep up with the Jones's". And, quite frankly, I think that's a rather shoddy way to treat your best clientele. If people are willing to throw thousands of dollars at an MMO, they ought to have a special "private client" level of service, no?
Because you need to scale up and manage that service ... which is not easy. You have to train a staff that can DM. In this day and age of automation, few companies would want to go that direction.
It is much easier to give your best client a "gold level" or whatever status symbol (and perks) than person-to-person service.
The fact is, there isn't any luxury MMO today, because there isn't anyone who has figured out how to give the exclusive clientele an exclusive experience. All they can do is give them more tacky crap to "keep up with the Jones's". And, quite frankly, I think that's a rather shoddy way to treat your best clientele. If people are willing to throw thousands of dollars at an MMO, they ought to have a special "private client" level of service, no?
Because you need to scale up and manage that service ... which is not easy. You have to train a staff that can DM. In this day and age of automation, few companies would want to go that direction.
It is much easier to give your best client a "gold level" or whatever status symbol (and perks) than person-to-person service.
There are high end nightclubs and venues that cater to the very wealthy. They are examples of personalized service for a premium price. It makes sense that this could also exist for online games. However, as I have stated in another thread, this is a totally different market than the existing MMO space. It is unlikely that this new option would disrupt the old, and would not cause it to fail.
Maybe I am the only one BUT I stopped playing MMORPGs. I couldn't find one I liked enough to devote time and/or money to. I have tried a bunch of F2P titles but didn't stay long. So now no one gets my money. I spend time once used for playing (paying) to searching and researching something I may be interested in.
I would gladly pay a sub for a game I am interested in. $15 a month is short money if you are putting 10+ hours a week into the game.
The fact is, there isn't any luxury MMO today, because there isn't anyone who has figured out how to give the exclusive clientele an exclusive experience. All they can do is give them more tacky crap to "keep up with the Jones's". And, quite frankly, I think that's a rather shoddy way to treat your best clientele. If people are willing to throw thousands of dollars at an MMO, they ought to have a special "private client" level of service, no?
Because you need to scale up and manage that service ... which is not easy. You have to train a staff that can DM. In this day and age of automation, few companies would want to go that direction.
It is much easier to give your best client a "gold level" or whatever status symbol (and perks) than person-to-person service.
Agreed. Add to it that people looking for a more personalized virtual murder, roleplay, fantasy or team experience are not looking for it in Massively multiplayer venues. Even real life luxury services aren't done on a massive scale. They are geared toward smaller groups because of the monumental tasks and size of staff often needed to provide such an experience.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Maybe I am the only one BUT I stopped playing MMORPGs. I couldn't find one I liked enough to devote time and/or money to. I have tried a bunch of F2P titles but didn't stay long. So now no one gets my money. I spend time once used for playing (paying) to searching and researching something I may be interested in.
I would gladly pay a sub for a game I am interested in. $15 a month is short money if you are putting 10+ hours a week into the game.
You are not alone. Not by a long shot. The MMORPG scene is dying off, has been for about 3 years now. There's still business going on, but it's not anywhere close to where it could be. If not for "free", it would really look bleak.
Maybe I am the only one BUT I stopped playing MMORPGs. I couldn't find one I liked enough to devote time and/or money to. I have tried a bunch of F2P titles but didn't stay long. So now no one gets my money. I spend time once used for playing (paying) to searching and researching something I may be interested in.
I would gladly pay a sub for a game I am interested in. $15 a month is short money if you are putting 10+ hours a week into the game.
You are not alone. Not by a long shot. The MMORPG scene is dying off, has been for about 3 years now. There's still business going on, but it's not anywhere close to where it could be. If not for "free", it would really look bleak.
95% of the people on this site will tell you you're wrong and you are alone. Us 5% are basically going to eventually move onto another hobby entirely and just stop posting here.
I have to honestly say we will never see another MMORPG that we think is good. It's just not going to happen. And I have been saying this for years now.
You're confusing "5% of the people that post here are moving on" with "the MMORPG scene is dying".
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Everquest: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/everquest
Ultima Online: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/ultima-online
I cant even find games like RuneScape. I think this has more to do with the age of the game than anything else.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryolmsted/2015/03/09/10-most-luxurious-hotels-in-las-vegas/
http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2015/05/12/ford-gt-development-secret-design-studio-engineering-moray-callum/27131883/
http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/11/8766121/honda-rc213v-s-crazy-expensive-race-motorcycle
http://anheuser-busch.com/index.php/our-beers/#!Oculto
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/09/17/1-critical-factor-general-motors-investors-watch.aspx
Compare this with what game publishers are doing:
http://www.denofgeek.us/games/star-wars/245446/eas-star-wars-games-what-to-expect
Now, on the surface, the article on Star Wars Battlefront and 1313 looks like its innovative and risk taking...but read closely, and all you find is the same old hat, from the same old ideas, from the same old publishers.
"There is no studio better equipped to develop this game at EA than shooter veteran DICE." But what they forgot to add is that there's no studio less able to do something new or innovative than DICE.
Here's 1313:
"Fans really want this game to be some version of Star Wars 1313, the canceled action-adventure game that starred a young Boba Fett before he became the legendary bounty hunter. For a time, the third-person action-adventure game seemed to be all LucasArts had going for it in its final days before Disney closed the developer down. After major restructuring and a series of defeats, 1313 stood as a new hope for Star Wars games when it was first unveiled at E3 2012. But when Disney acquired LucasArts, the game had nowhere to go but into the sarlacc pit."
Cute, but it gets worse...
Although EA has revealed absolutely no details about the game beyond who's making it, the odds are pretty high that the game is a third-person action-adventure game with a very distinct [Beatnik59, meaning very predictable] style."
"Visceral is known for Dead Space -- a series often cited as one of the best in the sci-fi horror genre -- which perfectly captured the feeling and tone of films such as Alien, Event Horizon, and Sunshine through intense third-person combat and puzzle-solving, all tied up with a captivating narrative."--Again, nothing to see here but the same worn patterns...another "Ford Focus" for 2015, instead of a Ford GT.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
At the point it comes out, there is no games like it (particularly the way combat was done .. cutting off limbs).
Now you surely claim that DS2 or DS3 are no longer innovative, but the first one is a breeze of fresh air in gaming.
- It's been extremely low quality in the past.
- It's still very low quality now.
RuneScape 3 does exist on Metacritic (6.0 user review) but apparently hasn't been considered big enough or good enough for a single review site to cover.It's just like Entropia: clearly not a luxury MMORPG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
All the products you're listing are limited by physical production limitations. This is why luxury versions of those products are a thing.
With software, throwing $200 million at a MMORPG like SWTOR is the best the genre can produce. It's the equivalent of an MMORPG luxury product, except that nearly everyone can afford and enjoy it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I agree with you on price. I don't doubt that a game like the one I described would be expensive to buy into. But so what? As we already know, enough people dump $1000 or more in F2P crap which is, quite frankly, much less value than what they could have if the game is designed from the ground up to give these whales what they wanted all along: the best experience. Why abuse your best customers by forcing them to play a standard, typical MMO and having to add on things to make it special? Why not just design the special MMO, make it too expensive for your average punk to buy into, and give the whales more than they could ever dream of from your typical, automated, F2P faire?
Where I disagree is that a high price tag is a problem An insanely high price tag doesn't reduce the interest in Corvette ZR1s, Louboutin shoes, Movado watches, Cartier cufflinks, a condo in Trump Tower or first class service on Ethiad Airways. If anything, it only fuels interest, especially when you are getting something above and beyond the norm. If it's the best, you'll have people spending money they don't have to get in on it, just to experience it.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that you really don't want a lot of people to get in on it, because then it'll just lose its appeal.
MMO publishers? They know how to put out their bellcows and money makers (the WoWs, the STOs, the SWTORs). What they need to include is a prized bull in the stable... A "concept car" or a full out, no compromise experience for the true aficionado. Where anything short of the best is not good enough.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Maybe the issue is that these are all OLD games, and that despite being low quality today.. they were innovative at the time. You can go back even further, with games like Isle of Kesmai or Air Warrior, which are also old, low quality games. These WERE premium games at the time, but they are so old/obsolete that they dont operate anymore.
To which again, your remark that the "graphics are shoddy and controls are awful" and only sharing an image of the game from the pre-cryengine update to give a false impression of the game compared to it's reality, is not particularly honest.
Like also suggested, you're looking at titles that are 12+ years old and either criticizing aspects of their past or of their age. It's not saying anything of the design or intent of referencing them, only extracting their mention as a way to lambaste a subject with a herring that is itself a dubious claim.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
What we have forgotten is that these games used to be actively ran and managed on a day to day basis, 23 hours a day. You'd have GMs, "Wizards" and so on actively playing characters and setting things up, using developer tools to create events on the fly. That, however, has changed. These days, developers think that the game ought to run itself, and it shouldn't require active participation outside of turning the server off an on for a maintenance cycle and throwing more stuff in the item store. I say that's a cheap copy of multiplayer gaming, and not the essence of it.
The problem with SWTOR is, like nearly all MMOs, its automated. The mobs are AI'd, the NPCs are AI'd--even the customer service is AI'd. It isn't full service. It's self service.
This was done as a cost/benefit thing, I'm sure. People cost money, so why hire them when you can write scripts to do the work for people?
As a result, the game--by necessity--becomes a throwaway thing that you consume and ditch. There are so many limitations when developers refuse to take an active hand in GMing on a day to day basis.
This is something that a boutique MMO can restore: live action, game mastering from the professional staff, who are 100% committed to making the game unique every day.
As the PvPers, the RPers--even the raid groupers and guild players will tell you, "there's no substitute for a live person"...that's why people play these things over...say...Batman Arkham. And that's where I see MMOs going, if they want to go high end...not copying SWTOR's workaround by substituting scripts for a GM and live team, but giving them real GMs, real character actors playing real antagonists, VIPs from the lore, and cameos for various happenings.
Expensive? You betcha. Exclusive? Yep. Artisinal in scope? Most certainly. But I would argue that this gets to the essence of multiplayer roleplaying games more completely than the pablum we've had since the publishers decided that a dev's job is in the studio, and not in the game.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
It is not uncommon for a luxury hotel to have a staff to guest ratio of 0.5:1...that is to say, there's a paid staff member for every two guests.
Looking at it that way, what is the staff to guest ratio for a game like WoW, or Everquest? Probably 0.00001 to 1 at least, and possibly much more.
Even if you get a staff to guest ratio of 0.01 to 1, so you can do personalized live events frequently, you are talking orders of magnitude better personalized service than what we settle for now.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Production cost isn't automatically correlated to quality, so sure maybe SWTOR is the fire-prone Ferrari 458 Italia instead of the Bugatti Veyron. But either way, there's no doubting that it's a luxury game with few peers when it comes to the production investment.
If you're looking for a quirky hipster joint (Second Life, Entropia) then that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion of what makes a game great. Just don't go around pretending those are anything remotely similar to a luxury experience.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
AND DRAGON RIDING GD^*@# !!!
That would compete with all that is out there including f2p because it'd be so awesome.
Is just any old "quirky hipster joint" a luxury experience? No. But hipster joints which feature rotating art installations and world-class DJs, and are invitation only, certainly qualify, no?
It all has to do with the experience you get, not the amount you spend, isn't it? If it were all that easy to buy a fancy car to stamp your ticket, there'd be a lot more stamped tickets. But luxury doesn't work that way, except when you approach it like some dolt accountant does, and say "$200 million is a lot, therefore it must be luxury."
I say no. If SWTOR was truly a luxury MMO, you wouldn't even have scripted NPCs handing out quests. You'd get your quests from a character actor on staff, who is paid to give you and the guests the personal attention necessary to give you fun. The true luxury MMO wouldn't need you to buy things constantly to keep it fresh and new. The staff would make it a fresh and new adventure every day.
The fact is, there isn't any luxury MMO today, because there isn't anyone who has figured out how to give the exclusive clientele an exclusive experience. All they can do is give them more tacky crap to "keep up with the Jones's". And, quite frankly, I think that's a rather shoddy way to treat your best clientele. If people are willing to throw thousands of dollars at an MMO, they ought to have a special "private client" level of service, no?
That's why I don't think something like SWTOR is luxury, and that most F2P with whales isn't true luxury either. It's petty parvenu status chasing, at best.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Cant imagine why Devs arent all over this.
/sarcasm off.
Im willing to go 50 a month and have no takers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It is much easier to give your best client a "gold level" or whatever status symbol (and perks) than person-to-person service.
I would gladly pay a sub for a game I am interested in. $15 a month is short money if you are putting 10+ hours a week into the game.
Agreed. Add to it that people looking for a more personalized virtual murder, roleplay, fantasy or team experience are not looking for it in Massively multiplayer venues. Even real life luxury services aren't done on a massive scale. They are geared toward smaller groups because of the monumental tasks and size of staff often needed to provide such an experience.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The MMORPG scene is dying off, has been for about 3 years now. There's still business going on, but it's not anywhere close to where it could be. If not for "free", it would really look bleak.
Once upon a time....
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
VG